Is it better to stringline walls before you put your double top plate on or after?
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personnal preferrence..
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I think it is up to the guy doing it.
That said, I always do strings before doubles because it is a little easier to push things around that way.
Just my two centsm you get what you pay for.
I hope Chuck Norris never potato sacks me!!!!
bstcrpntr --- I hope to grow into this name.
I like after because you know when you put your ceiling joists on you have straight walls. I can imagine the double top plate knocking things out of whack just a little bit.
Jon Blakemore
RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Same here. We put the double plate up then tweak things into line using adjustable wall braces and string. After the joists or trusses are set and sheeted we remove the braces.
If you plan on running your stringlines after doubling your top plates, don't nail off the doubles at the corners until after your stringlines are up and walls checked...then nail off the corners. This makes it easier to move the wall around...once in postion, lock the corners in place.
Personally, I run my stringlines before doubling the top plate...and usually check it again after doubling....but I'm a slow-poke.
Davo
We would never lift a wall without the top plates attached and marked out for the joists. The wall would be like a piece of spaghetti with a single plate. The trick to stringing a wall is pick straight plates, keep your framing nailed flush and get the wall leaning out no more than a quarter so the springboards or braces don't have to pull or push very much.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
Steve,
Your question implies that you don't double top plate while the wall is on the deck. If that is the case, then I highly suggest doing as much of your topplating while the wall is on the deck as is possible. It's easier and faster.
We stringline after all our walls are up, all the topplates are on and all the walls have been connected. Picking straight material for the topplate and double topplate make it much easier to straighten too.
I never heard of not doubling your plates while they are on the deck. ( except for the odd end peice that might be in the way ) why would anyone want to climb up the walls with wack of plates to nail when it can be dealt with on the ground?
If you are working by yourself & can't lift a 50ft wall alone ;)
I agree with Timuhler. Double topplating on the deck is the way to go, and being picky about the material you use for both topplates is essential. What a nightmare trying to staighten a wall with crooked topplates! Stringline once the wall is up and connected to the other walls.
Man it has been awhile since I did a site built wall. We always use prefab walls, throw them up and then plate them. Guess If I got back into building things myself I would go back to plating on the deck.I hope Chuck Norris never potato sacks me!!!!
bstcrpntr --- I hope to grow into this name.
Guess I'm old-school. Well, old. ;)Not that I do much framing anymore.
Naw, you're not old.... shoot I'm just 33 and we do exactly as you and Tim described. Only thing I'll add is that doubling the plates while the wall is on the deck seems to actually help straighten them out. We try to oppose crowns in the double plates to help off-set each other and it seems to help the wall straighten out some on their own.
BTW, welcome to the forum.View Image
"We try to oppose crowns in the double plates to help off-set each other and it seems to help the wall straighten out some on their own."
yup....that's a good general framing pratice for many situations.
Thanks for the welcome. I could hear the band playing, at least in my own head. I suppose that's better than those dang voices! (Where's my aluminum hat?)
That wasn't the band.... it was sirens.... they're coming for ya. Stick around here long enough and you won't even put up a fight when they finally show up. :)View Image
It's been a while but I always string line after the double top plate is on. To me anyway, unless the stock you have for plates is perfectly straight, it would be too easy to knock your nice straight walls out of line with the second plate.
Most of my Framing was in NEw Jersey where Toe nailing was the order of the day. In that case, the top plate is already in place. All you have to do is nail all the lap joints, plumb the brace the house, then string any walls that need to be strung.
For any end nailing or tilt up, I do it this way.
First I lay out all the walls. Then I toenail the sole plate to the deck. Next, I toenail the first top plate to the sole plate. Then, I Nail the second top plate to the first with Duplex nails, just tacked in enough places to keep them together. Then I lay out all of the walls. Everything! Studs, on the side. Ceiling/Floor joists on the top as well as any toilets or tubs or partitions. Since the Stud Center layout goes across all three plates, it's easy to keep everything in line later.
Then I can number and pull all of the walls off the deck and out of my way while I frame them. All three plates get seperated, the top plate and sole plate get studs nailed between them. Then the second top plate gets nailed on. The wall gets sheethed if need be and then it gets raised.
Then I can Plumb Brace and string as needed.
My goal is always to spend as little time as possible on ladders nailing on top plates or laying out.
steve151
Doesn't matter.. Wood that is used for construction is too green (about 19% moisture on average) to be accurite..
If your walls are string straight as the wood dries they will bow and weave enough that those following you will still have to make corrections..
Kiln dried wood is dried to 19% moisture
wood will within a year or so of being in a heated house dry further to around 7% moisture..
You are correct, but if you nail your ceiling joists to the wall plates after you straighten them with a line your walls will stay straight no matter how much water they lose.Remember that softwood shrinks an almost imperceptible amount when drying so you joists will keep everything in line.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Jon Blakemore,
I'm sorry but that simply is not correct.
Softwood shrinks more on average than hardwood does.. It's 2 in the morning so I won't be going into the attic to give you actual numbers but it does shrink dramatically..
In addition the top and bottom plates are not going to affect the midspan bending bowing dancing and weaving that happens to 2x material.. as it dries.. besides the middle of the top plates can also bend and bow dance and weave like a drunken sailor on shore leave.. all that holds them in place is the roof trusses or second floor joists..
Surprisingly what actaully works is the plywood exterior and sheetrock interior forming a weak but semi-effective box beam.
Frenchy,I'm afraid you may not understand the point of stringing your walls.When you frame a wall, lift it in place, and install temp. bracing you can easily have a bow of 1" or so between your braces, or even at your braces.When you're ready to install your ceiling joists or roof members (whether rafter or truss) you string a line to see where you need to push the wall out and where you need to pull it in. Once it is straight and braced off you install your framing that goes on top of the wall and secure those boards to the top plate.Once this is done, your wall will effectively be locked in holding it straight. It does not matter if you plates are at 7% MC or 47% MC, they will staill stay in their place as long as you place the appropriate number of nails in you joist/truss. Your studs can bow all they want, but they are locked in at the bottom plate (which is nailed to the floor) and the top plate (which you just secured with your framing).BTW- when you choose to string your walls has absolutely nothing to do with how much your joists bow or cup.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Frenchy,I've had enough of you, so I'm sending someone to your house.........Joe Carola
Edited 9/3/2006 11:23 am ET by Framer
Framer,
MOMMY!
Good thing I don't have to live in your world. The framing stock we get here is nicely dry and does not bend/bow/cup/warp all over the place after we install it, either soon after or long after when the heating is on. Walls are framed, braced, lined, and adjusted, and then a floor deck is put on top of them. Plywood is put on top of that, glued and nailed. Once that's done, how are the top plates going to bend all over the place, like I guess they do where you are?? Same with a roof. Either trusses or stick framing goes on top of the walls, followed by sheathing.
Hate to tell ya', but it's possible to build very flat walls with very straight top plates that are permanent. If I thought you'd actually done very much building, or even worked as a framer, I'd be more inclined to understand all your adamant posting on this thread.
I have to say that I agree with David and Jon. In my 15+ years in the trades (primarily residential remodeling and some new construction), I have never really had the problems you allude to. Perhaps we are misunderstanding what you are saying happens to you, or your framing techniques don't work well, or for some reason we have simply had higher quality materials on our jobsites.
frenchy.. you're a great salesman, but you don't know jack kennedyMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
davidmeiland
The human eye can detect slight variations pretty easily.. I visit nearly 7000 new homes a year and it's seldom when I sight down a wall that I don't see variation. I understand just how easy that variation can happen..
My own walls which were set plumb level and true as I could possibly get them..had a slight bow as I installed the trim and shakes on my south wall. as the heating season progressed I watched the wall bow more and more..
Now this is a timberframe home.. paneled with SIP's. There was absolutely no bow when I originally strung the walls. The timbers were as straight as an arrow.. Unlike most timberframers I built with dried or nearly dried timbers.. they'd been drying for 4 years at that point.. Carefully stickered up and properly stacked.
Lagged into SIP's (which are extremely straight and stiff) yet within a couple of years the timbers had pulled the panels into a bow over an 1" & 3/4ths. the majority of the bow between two ajacent timbers. In spite of the large head on the lagscrew and lag screws every 4 inches as the instructions call for there was this giant bow..
Eventually the pressure of those SIP's reduced the bow to only an 1" and 1/8th
This summer the bow is down to 13/16ths but that is nearly 4 years after the walls and timbers went up..
Six inches by six inch white oak timbers moving that much with a 6 inch x12 inch top plate (also white oak) 48 inches on center..
and you expect mere 2x's to remain straight? Can you imagine to force and power it takes to bend a 6x12 inch white oak an inch and three quarters?
Edited 8/25/2006 1:05 am ET by frenchy
Frenchy, your timberframe is different that stick framed. After a stick framed wall is straightened, it get braced every 16" or 24". In the drying process, it doesn't have a chance to move.
blue
blueeyeddevil.
Please explain to me how a timberframe is structurally weaker than a stick built?
The box beam formed with plywood and sheetrock is about two hundred percent weaker than the SIP panels that attach to a timberframe.* Timberframes are actually two structures (in my case three structures) combined.
* If you doubt me take a section of your typical wall and load it every way you can imagine and then measure the resulting deflection. A similar sized SIP will carry more load prior to deflection than any stick built panel..
The drying process occurs at about the same rate with any wood, the soft wood you build a stick built house will release it's moisture faster thru the heating period than a timberframe house will simply because there is less wood volume in a typical stick built house than in a timberframe paneled with SIP's
Remember a properly installed panel/timberframe is assembeled with glue and long lag screws every 4 inches about the same as the nailing schedule of plywood to sticks (er, 2x4's)
Please explain to me how a timberframe is structurally weaker than a stick built?
Frenchy, I don't think I'm going to try to make that argument. I'm not qualified to compare the two and I've never made that statement. That statement is yours to argue yourself with!
I will say that stick framed walls stay as straight as they are once you frame in the platforms. Wood typically won't move very much in the drying process when you have it locked in every 16". Our first floor walls are locked in by the floor joist. The second floor walls are locked in by the trusses and they also have additional rigidity added by our closed soffit systems whic typically are made of 12" plywood. I know from experience that if I firmly fasten a wall to a bowed cornice system, I'm NEVER going to get that wall straight. Conversely if the wall is straight and the soffit system is straight, and you nail trusses into it at 24" oc...IT AIN'T GOING ANYWHERE TILL THE TORNADO OR EXCAVATOR MESSES WITH IT.
blue
blueeyeddevil.
When you stick build a home you basically build a series of connected box beams.. the box beam is what provides the strength. That strength is all that prevents the 2x4's into turning into spagetti. (I use spagetti to make a point, toss a 2x4 on the ground and see how much like a piece of spagetti it is after just a month)
However when you build you are basically building with green wood.. Kiln dried wood is dried to 19% moisture plus or minus 2% Since wood can come out of the forest at about 25% moisture or even lower depending on factors, not much moisture is actually removed from the wood.. After the wood really dries it's down to around 7% moisture maybe lower in a heated house during the winter..
When wood loses moisture it shrinks. ( I could tell you how much depending on the species but those books are all in the attic right now) but it shrinks a lot.
As it shrinks the wood releases from the nails and the board is loosened.. now all that prevents wood from flopping apart is the shank of the nail..
There is no longer much friction between two boards.
Listen to your house, during a gusty day, you'll hear it moving! Those moans and creaks are wood rubbing against wood or against a loose nail .. not some ghost..
Frenchy,
No offense, but I have to ask why you're taking it upon yourself to "educate" professional life long framers like Blue and Joe, on how to frame houses and the mechanics and physics involved in framing? I mean, I know you're around framing a lot with selling forklifts, but these guys frame houses all day everyday for years on end. Don't you think that maybe they've thought and re-thought about all that is involved in something as simple as straightening walls? Their systems may be different, but their end result is the same..... top plates that are straight and stay straight.
I really can't even tell anymore what your point of all this is. The bottom line is that 2x top plates don't move after the framing is completed. Period, end of story. Your own double timber-frame or whatever keeps getting referenced by you over and over again, but you're really comparing apples to Volkswagens with that whole thing.
You're not a framer. But you're insisting on telling framers that what they see with their own eyes day in and day out, isn't true. I can't for the life of me figure out what you're trying to accomplish with all this. I give you credit for trying super-hard to make all of us believe something that just isn't true, but in the end.... it's not working.
Is your only point to glorify your timber-frame while pointing out imagined deficiencies in conventional stick framing? I'm sure I could park an F-16 on your roof without it collapsing, but I don't find that necessary very often. In the end.... you've got a "incredibly powerful white oak double timberframed wall" with a big azz bow in it while my wimpy little 2x4 framed houses have dead straight walls. Can't you see the irony in that?View Image
dieselpig,
Please go to any older neighborhood..
Sight down those walls,
If you don't see bowing or waving I'll be extremely surprised..
Go inside that older home.. take a simple plumb bob and check the walls for plumb. It will surprise you.
I see too much poor workmanship daily to ever accept that all bowing etc. is simply the result of wood movement.. Sometimes it's a subtle mistake of maybe only two or three trusses out of line by less than a 1/4 inch. Too often it's more, much more..
However as I've often said those who read this magazine are really interested in fine home building and I assume that they are all gentlemen of outstanding character who would never accept less than perfection no matter what the pressure of deadline or schedule...
I keep refering to my troubles of bowing not because I claim to be superior but rather to point out the movement issues involved with wood..
Dieselpig, I don't for a moment doubt that when you and others who read this really care and make your walls as straight as you possibly can.. I accept that fact.
Why can't you accept the fact that wood does move. That building with near green wood has it's price?
You mixing up two very different arguments and calling them one.
Are you talking about bowed walls as the result of sloppy workmanship?
Or are you talking about bowed walls as the result of wood movement?
All kinds of things happen as a result of sloppy workmanship. I'm not suggesting that regardless of who installs it, all 2x top plates will magically end up straight in the finished product.
But if the walls get set straight before framing the floor or ceiling above.... they don't move. If that is the point you are disputing, then yes.... I disagree wholeheartedly with you.
I just tore off the second floor of a 120 year old home a couple weeks ago. We then stripped the 1x deck boards off as well to replace with new T&G. When I snapped my lines for those new walls, guess what I saw? The old walls underneath were still straight as an arrow as the joists had held them that way since the day they were installed.
So what's up with that?View Image
dieselpig,
I won't say that it never happens.. (straight walls that is) what I will say is that it is often a matter of luck far more than a matter of skill.. The forces wanting to move a wall simply are not consistant.. Wind, shrinkage, load. sysmic, all vary as does the actual wood itself! No two trees are ever exactly alike thus a board from one tree may want to bow this way while another one wants to twist that way. Since a box is a relatively weak structure ( compared to say a triangle) the norm is for bow wavyness or whatever..
I guess I am making two arguements, one about the level of workmanship I note on a day to day jobsite visit basis and the other about wood movement in general.
Frankly the tolerance needed to build houses tends to combine rather than subtract. I understand the need for a 1/4 inch tolerance.. sure, many people especially those who believe in the concept of this magazine (FINE HOME BUILDING) work very hard to eliminate rather than combine tolerances. But it's tough for framer who's paid to quickly put up a frame with green wood on a less than perfect foundation in far from ideal conditions to get it right all of the time.
I certainly hope that nothing I've said will make you believe that I am critical of you or anyone who builds homes for a living.. Yes workmanship varies, yes wood moves, and yes the average house is extremly poorly designed, but that's the way they've been built for many many years and it's foolish to believe that will quickly change in the near future..
What is this 1/4" tolerance you are talking about? When the guys I work with and I frame, we frame to within 1/16" And in the end, when we trim, it shows. yes, wood moves, but if you start right, it won't move enough to worry about. You seem to be really hung up on something that really isn't worth wasting your time on. Have you ever even built a house, wall, floor, or even put on a tool belt for that matter? The guys that do this every day know how wood behaves, you know theory. Theory is what they teach in Architect school, and then they design things that cant be built.
netanyahu,
Yes I have. to answer your second question first..
as for tolerances, Sigh!
Hmmm. we're speaking about wood right?
tell you what.. carefully measure a 2x4 stud straight off the pile.
go home and measure that same stud in your house this winter..
Or even better, put down a hardwood floor without waiting for the wood to acclimatize.
That should teach you a bit about wood shrinkage/ movement.
With all due respect, (or in your case, a seeming lack thereof to everyone else) I don't need to be "taught a bit about wood shrinkage and movement". I work with the stuff everyday, and stay on the same house, from the first plate to the last peice of trim. Like I said, we frame to 1/16" and when we are finishing, there isn't any perceptible shifting. As far as "the 2x4 in my own house", I gutted my living room this summer, the house is 65 years old, and all the studs are exactly the same size (I checked because I was curious about shrinkage). Why don't you go back to engineer land or wherever you are from and brag about your massively overbuilt house that would give king kong a sore foot. I think everyone here has had just about enough of you.
Edited 9/3/2006 3:41 pm ET by netanyahu
I understand about wood and moisture content to only be important when making furniture but never framing. I think Frenchy might think it goes with framing also.Joe Carola
Framer,
I just responded to a framer who brags that he frames to within a 1/16th, furnature tolerances.. In 15 years of daily contact with framers I've never met a framer who claims to do poor work, every single one brags about the quality of their work.. yet I see poor work on a daily basis..
There is no standard of quality whereby homes are built.. National tolerance is 1/4 of an inch and if tolerances are combined serious issues could be present..
Now this is part of another subject, One that I doubt I could ever get anybody to admit to..
Wood movement is an issue in framing.. Hence the need to scribe walls to install cabinets. If you think it only moves in studs and never in joists or top plates then you need to read a bit about wood movement..
I will grant that with the use of engineered wood there is far less movement than with solid studs or joists.
When builders finish with a home they don't remain around to watch the paint dry or the wood move.. they are on to the next house.. Yet wood moves as it dries and shrinks thru the heating cycle. It's almost enough for me to go up into the attic and dig around to find the book on wood shrinkage.. You'd be amazed just how much wood does shrink. especially the "western White Woods" so common in todays framing.
netanyahu,
When you brag that you frame within furnature tolerances and fail to consider wood movement I believe that you have a great deal to learn. I've been building with wood for 53 years, (I started when I was 5) And I am still learning a great deal every year..
1/16 is not a furniture tollerance, 1/32 or 1/64 is. 1/16 is just good carpentry
netanyahu,
a 1/16th is too furniture tolerance depending on the width of the wood you are working with and the type of wood.. Go over to fine wood working and ask.. There are plenty of woods that swell or shrink far more than that on say a 24 inch wide top.
All I'm saying dude is that achieving straight 2x4 walls that are straight now, tomorrow, and 50 years from now is achievable and not really all that difficult. But it seems like you don't agree with me. Oh well..... you're not the first and I'm sure you won't be the last.
FWIW, I didn't think you were being critical of me or anyone else for that matter. I just didn't agree with the position you were taking on how much wood moves after a properly stick framed home is completed. I say it doesn't. You say it does. Doesn't look like we're getting anywhere with this does it? :)
No sweat.... it's all good. But if I'm lucky enough 20 years from now to get a job doing renovation work on a home I framed myself at the beginning of my career...... I'm making you come look at the walls when I open that baby back up. ;)View Image
dieselpig,
fair enough, but you might have to do a little diggin' to get me out of my grave.. ;)
Okay, one more post here, then I'm done. Frenchy, it's very true that a 6x6 is much stronger than a 2x. But that's precisely why 2 nails every 16" is sufficient to keep a 2x plate in line. I'd frankly laugh at anyone who tried to keep a white oak 6x from twisting with a handful of framing nails.As for the directions for scribing cabinets, that's due more to bowed studs than spaghettied top plates...... By the way, do you see the same issue with bottom plates as you do with tops? Didn't mean to fly off the handle, but a lot of your posts really do indicate a disdain for builders in general. Granted there are a lot of hacks out there who only want to put in their 40 for rent and beer money, but there are a lot of us who care about our craft and do what we can to improve our skills, knowledge, and productivity. That's why I've spent the time and money to read FHB for almost 20 years.
Alright, let me for one moment ask a question that has something to do with the original thread. I don't frame new houses, just reasonably sized additions as part of remodels. But I was originally taught to add the second top plate after the walls were up so that the plates of the corners and partitions could be lapped. Do you not bother with this when you put your second top plate on with the wall on the floor? It does seem as though lapping the plates is a little overkill with all else that is holding the corners together, and I certainly can see the efficiency and stiffness advantages to putting them on while on the floor.
"But I was originally taught to add the second top plate after the walls were up so that the plates of the corners and partitions could be lapped."Who taught you that?I do many additions also and there's no reason why you can't nail the second top plate on before you raise the wall with EVERY lap for every wall and raise them and lift the laps over the wall it's sitting on. Are you sheathing the walls first? Maybe that's why you have to leave the lap piece off. Even if you are sheathing the walls first, there's no reason why you can nail on all the top plates for all the rest of the walls.Joe Carola
Ok, I'll admitt I'm having a "duh" moment here. What you are saying makes total sense, and I'll adjust my framing techniques accordingly. I'll still probably sheath only to the top of the first top plate before I stand my walls so that I get some sheating overlap from plate to plate accross the end / rim joists. (at least for first floor walls) However, I do quite often run into an issue with 3 sided additions where minor projections from the old structure mean that I have to frame the walls extending out first, and then frame the third wall between them. (no room for an extending second top plate)I'm sort of answering my own question as I write this, because I could at least put on the second top plate of the side walls first (and mark them for rafter or truss layout), and then only have 1 plate to add after the walls are up.Did someone just turn a light on?
The douple plate can almost always go on while on the floor. as framer I think mentioned, sometimes the lapped section can get put on after ( say the last 6' of a 30' wall that you don't want to shift.) but most walls are easy enough to move around.
having said that, I could see that if you're by yourself or maybe only 1 helper there may be a few more instances where you may want to put it on after. But I will always try to put it on while on the deck unless it makes total sense not to.
The way I frame, every single top plate is on and laid out before we raise the walls because I sheath the walls later. There's no reason why every top plate can't go on first and even laid out. Even if you sheath the walls on the deck before raising them, there's no reason why they can't go on first except for the lap piece.Other than that I haven't heard one good reason why anyone would go around and put top plates on after the walls are up. It doesn't make the walls any harder to straighten out. If anything on long walls 40'-50'-60' the top plates hold the walls together where to have a joint.If I had a 30’ room and used a 16’ and a 14’ plate for the first of the two top plates. At that joint I would lay my second top plate with a 16’ piece down in the center overlapping the joint 8’ on each side and then put a 6’ piece on one end and an 8’ piece on the other end. Raise the wall and that’s it.If you have just the first top plate and the 16’ and 14’ joint with nothing on top, that joint is going to open as you raise the wall. I don’t care if you put a little 14-3/8” block at the joint or not, it’s still not as strong as an 8’ overlap on the second top plate. Even if you land the joint in the center of a stud (which is something I’ve never done but from what I read here it’s code some places) it’s still not as strong as an 8’ overlap.I know we all have different techniques, but this stuff about putting on top plates later doesn’t make sense to me. Like I said, I still haven’t heard one good reason why anyone would leave them out.
Joe Carola
I have no qualms with any of your techinqes. ( I do like to sheath walls while flat though)
There is the odd time where I am framing a wall (interior) that is sandwiched bewteen 2 walls and I simply find it easier in that instance to stand the wall up and throw on the DP.
But as as rule they go on while on the deck..and if your rule is they go on while on the deck without fail, no questions asked, in every case... I got no problem with that, from what I've picked up from your posts, you know what you're doing and I'd be happy to backframe behind you anytime.
Edited 9/3/2006 3:13 pm ET by alrightythen
"There is the odd time where I am framing a wall (interior) that is sandwiched bewteen 2 walls and I simply find it easier in that instance to stand the wall up and throw on the DP."Thank you for the compliment.I'm not sure how you frame those inside or small walls but if you tack the shoe down and face-nail it's probably hard to raise the wall with the top plate overlapping because the shoe being in place. When I framed that way in Cape Cod over twenty years ago I never tacked the shoe down on the inside walls except for the outside walls. I nailed my top plates on overlapping and face-nailed the shoe to the bottom of the studs and then stood the wall up on an angle. One guy stays low and the other guy stays high and the lap goes over the top plates and fall right into the lap joint. This is how I do it now but it's a lot easier because all my shoes are nailed in place already and we frame the walls take our hands and grab the top plates and slide them into the shoe and lift the walls on an angle and drop them on the top plate. Outside wall the same thing.Joe Carola
everything you say makes sense. Like I said it's only the odd time....
and sometimes I change my style depending on the wall lay out... if I got a bunch of smaller walls that are easy to move around I like to build a bunch all on top of each other that are in the same area while theres is still lots of floor space, I plan which I will stand last and build that 1st so that it is on the bottom of the pile. as you say, you lift the walls up and the laps fit into each other.
other times I tend to build,and stand as I go ...depends on the layout , I kinda like the build inna pile and stand all at once 'cuz it's cool to see half dozen walls up in 2 minutes. and I also kinda get in a rythum.
"I plan which I will stand last and build that 1st so that it is on the bottom of the pile. as you say, you lift the walls up and the laps fit into each other."I here you there. One time years ago I was doing an add-a-level and some freaky wether came in, so I framed all the inside walls first in reverse laying them down on top of each other the way I wanted to raise them and then framed the outside walls last laying them on top of everything else.Set of props to pitch the tarp and tarped away. It rained good that night and the next day we just took off the tarp and started raising the outside walls and then raising and lapping all the inside walls to them.Some walls are tricky like when the stairwell is on the outside wall or when you have an open foyer. It's all good!Joe Carola
Well, it's been awhile since I've logged on. I've been on a framing crew throughing up a small track of SF homes. I've got to tell you that this side of 40, it's not something I think I'll be doing alot of anymore. Since I don't do much extensive work framing anymore, my body has rebelled and has me relaxing at home. That said, I've read a few dozen posts on this thread and smile.
My two cents, build as much of the wall on the deck as possible. There is no advantage to not slapping on the double plate. You will be able to adjust things just fine with it on.
When I first started out, I was told," It's not a piano---if your within a 1/4", your OK". As time has gone bye, I 've shaved it to 1/8" as my min. standard and that has worked well in my life with no flags ever raised; tighter than that, your wasting time in production framing.
Tomrocks21212,
Well then I apologize Tom, I have nothing but respect for builders. I like them even the hacks and quick buck artists.. (I may not like the work they do but I like them as a career). OK niceness over, most of them.. some are just jerks.. (sorry)
I totally agree with you regarding those who read and tend to follow Fine Home building. My arguement was slightly flawed when I erronously mentioned the wavyness I see in top and yes even bottom plates mostly caused by shoddy workmanship..
Finally Jessie stopped by and took some pictures of my place so you should be getting some posted here on monday.. (thanks in advance Jessie)
When you do you will see that I never used nails to hold my timbers in place.. Instead they are held with 1/2 stainless steel lag bolts that go from the outer black walnut timbers thru the SIP's and into the white oak.. Thus my claim for a double timberframe..
However as I've often said those who read this magazine are really interested in fine home building and I assume that they are all gentlemen of outstanding character who would never accept less than perfection no matter what the pressure of deadline or schedule...
Well now I know why I don't read it!
blue
Frenchy, I understand that shrinkage occurs. I've swam in cold water.
Anyways, the shrinkage is relatively uniform. A 16' joist shrinks in length but so does the one next to it. All those plates get locked in and they shrink toward the center of the house in a relative similar manner.
blue
blueyeddevil,
Excellant arguement!
One minor point!
All joists look alike however they may be far from identical.. A joist that came from a tree on the north slope of the forest will have an entirely differant shrinkage rate than a joist that comes from the south slope.. (differant access to sunlite causes differant growth rates) Plus all the other forces involved..
I understand the concept.. (locked in) yet look at that carefully.. Have you ever removed a nail or a whole board? It pulls out rather easy doesn't it? Nails drive in easily and remove just about as easily. In the end that's all the connection that holds most houses together.. Wind, shrinkage, load, and sysmic affects the connection. Flawless it ain't!
"Have you ever removed a nail or a whole board? It pulls out rather easy doesn't it? Nails drive in easily and remove just about as easily."
I must be ripping out the wrong boards with too many nails that aren't so easy to pull...
that's why I angle my nails ( in opposing directions)
.... I hate having to rip appart the stuff I've put together - "It pulls out rather easy doesn't it", in a word - no.
alrightythen.
Good for you. I highly recommend toe nailing rather then simple straight nailing.. But you are missing the point..
Nails extract easily compared to say a screw.
Maybe because I'm so cheap I always reuse any stud. I admit to being not as strong as you are.. so I cheat and use a crow bar rather than just the hammer.. I can strip a stud full of nails in just a minute or two using the crowbar. But younger guys seem to be able to quickly remove nails when I see them in the field..
crowbar is the slow way if you got to split some 2 ply or 3 ply studs. I always cut a few wedges and pound em in to split the members apart.
in any case you make it sound like nails barley hold things together, and that any house built is going to come apart or at least turn to spaghetti because you can take a crow bar to something and pull it apart.
your talking about reletivity, never mind the screws, why not bolt everything together with thru bolts. but this all has very little to do what diesel and the others are trying to make clear.
I've seen stuff that has been barely nailed togther and has had the effects that you talk about, I've also followed behind a fellow carpenter that threw in jack studs completly forgetting to nail them at all ( yes not a single nail).
so yeah if it's not put together properly your gonna have problems.
Frenchy,In keeping with the point of the thread, did you stringline your walls before you installed your double top plate?Wait, that's right. You don't have double top plates because you're building a timber frame. As Blue said, timber frames have very little in common with stick frames in practice.Please explain to me how a top plate of a stick framed wall can bow in or out when you have your joists installed and the floor above sheathed.BTW- 7,000 homes a year??? Do you visit two homes an hour and work 3,500 hours per year?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
JonBlakemore,
My timberframe has a top plate.. it happens to be 6 inches thick and 12 inches deep. it only spans 48 inches on center at most.. (my timberframe also has a bottom plate it is only a 6 inch by 6 inch beam.. white oak in both cases..
Oh and just for a little additional strength,,...
There is a SIP in between another timberframe.
Now the outside timberframe is only 4 inches by 8 inches except at the corners which are 8x8's and those are somewhat weaker black walnut rather than the white oak on the interior..
That says nothing of the 6x6 white oak corner braces in every corner on the interior.
And yes, I did stringline all the walls at each stage of assembly..
I on occasion visit 5 or 6 homes an hour when working thru a housing development. I work around 2800 to 3000 hours a year at my paying job (plus nights and weekends at building my home.
It takes but a glance or two to note the quality of workmanship and the attention to detail in each home. If I pointed out those slight deviations where maybe a stud is slightly twisted or off a bit most would feel they aren't critical.. Yet in total they do add up..
For example I regularly see walls built on a deck that isn't swept clean of sawdust and other debris.. the stud lying on a little mound of sawdust might only be an 1/8th of an inch off but given a few such errors and they start to add up..
The real flaws I see most commonly are where people need to hand frame roof pieces.. Maybe the saw needs to be at 37.4 degrees to accurately intersect another roof line. Instead the saw is set at about 40 degrees and the heel shows or the toe is loose.
If you used a moisture meter as I do (OK, I'm anal) you'd note that wood that feels dry to you will have a core moisture of nearly 20% as it dries it can move around a great deal!
Now if you doubt me take any piece of wood and set it someplace exposed to weather but not necessarily in direct rain/sunlite etc.. come back in a couple of years and check it for straightness. that bowing bending warping twisting etc. is what all the wood is trying to do. Granted you are building a box beam when you nail plywood to the outside and sheetrock to the inside.. but it is a relatively weak box beam. Held only by whatever fastener strength there is.. If several pieces of wood exert the same bending, bowing, flexing, movement then the wall will move..
Frenchy,You use a lot of words but still don't really make a point.The tendency of a double top plate to warp really has no significance when you frame & sheathe a floor on top of it. The floor structure holds the plates where they are supposed to be, it's just that simple. Your timberframe may warp noticeably because it does not have enough support.Your example of the stud laying in a pile of sawdust shows that you're focusing on the points that are irrelevant. As long as that stud is nailed flush with the plates, I don't care if there's a 2x4 laying under it! Once the wall is stood up and braced off staight (with a string line) you would never know it was not perfectly flat on the deck.You seem to be on a campaign against something, although I'm not sure exactly what.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
JonBlakemore.
Hmm, I really need to find a way to explain to you what the issues are..
Let me try by being really simple and then grow from there.. I'm sorry if this seems too basic but I simply cannot convey things to you in a manner which you can accept.
First I don't accuse anybody of shoddy workmanship.. it does occur but let's assume that since we're all readers of fine home building that we all want to do fine work..
My comments are about the power of wood to move..
Please toss a nice straight 2x4 on the ground for a week and let me know if it's still as straight..
If it is then I'm wrong..
Wood moves and while a box beam is formed when you put plywood on the outside and sheetrock on the inside, wood will still try to move.. Since the fasteners holding wood are strong only in shear and not in tension. it is relatively easy for wood to pull a nail loose.. loosen enough nails and the wood can move..
The floor or roof trusses resist outward movement only to the degree that the fasteners allow.. remember the wood you build with is still green. (19% moisture is the standard) {tolerance is plus or minus 2%} as that water escapes the wood shrinks and as the wood shrinks the fasteners don't get out a hammer and pound themselves tight.. Loose fasteners allow minor wood movement.. wind pressures, and normal swelling and shrinking as wood goes thru wet and dry cycles loosen up fasteners more allowing more movement..
Over time buildings, well built buildings, simply move.. If you look at any older home you will see bowed walls and other such examples of wood movement..
Now as for my example of shoddy workmanship..
I'm certain that you always sweep the floor prior to building a wall and wouldn't accept a stud out of place.. I can assure you that not everybody does so..
I see too many examples for that not to be the case.. If you doubt me please ride with me for one week..
Frenchy,I think you're still misunderstanding the issue.The "bow" that you see in walls often has nothing to do with the top plate. The top & bottom plates are there to secure the wood studs at the top & bottom. The 6' or so on a 92-5/8" stud is free to move, and it will. You will see a wave in this wall if the studs are crowned even if the to & bottom plates are dead straight.Your supposition that the shrinkage of wood and loosening of fasteners will allow the top plates to bow in 3/4" is ludicrous.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
JonBlakemore,
Yes you are correct in that bow does occur in the 92 5/8ths portion of the stud even when the box beam is formed..
I don't know where that 3/4 of an inch you mentioned came from I honestly don't recall any newly built home out by that much ( although I did have a tremendous bow in my timberframe after only one heating cycle., (er, winter). Looking at walls I can usually spot a 1/4 inch of bow/wave etc. and always spot a 1/2 inch variation.. Now most of that variation is simply shoddy workmanship. Frankly I don't visit homes very often after they have been built and gone thru a heating season.. But seldom do I fail to see some wavyness in any wall when I site down it.
I have no doubt that my bow was caused by the tremendous power of those big white oak timbers. Luckily in my case it was only three timbers which moved that much and as the timbers dried the pressure from the SIP's has pulled two of the three timbers somewhat back in line.. Also that wall is one of the few walls in my home that isn't double timberframed so I had no outside timber to resist the inward bow of the inside timber.
Please remember almost all of my walls are 16 inches thick and those massive timbers have far more strength and movement than a typical stick built wall does..
.
Ok, once again, the "bow" you're talking about has nothing, I mean absolutely nothing, to do with the top plates being straight or not.This thread is about how to get your top plates straight and keep them that way, and that is what all posters are talking about, with the exception of you.I've said what I wanted to say, but I'm finished now. Good luck with the double timber-frame.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
JonBlakemore,
I accept the fact that when you leave those top plates are as straight as you can possibly make them.. (unlike what I see daily)
Once you accept the fact that you are building with near green wood that has much drying (and attending shrinking) to go thru we are in agreement..
Frenchy,We build with green lumber every day rain, snow, sleet, hail and I've been in houses and additions that I've framed 20 years ago and guess what?.........the walls and ceilings are perfectly straight.Yes, lumber does shrink but no where in a million years as to what you are talking about.You talk as if anyone who stick frames; all their houses look like snakes. It's simply not true, maybe where you’re from but not around here. Get it through that thick skull of yours and except the fact that our walls stay straight and we'll all except the fact that would does shrink and move but not like you think.Your 2x4 laying on the ground and turning in spaghetti has nothing to do with the walls that are framed and sheathed and joisted.Throw a 2x2 baluster in the sun for a few days on the ground and it will look like a snake. Screw it up on the deck and rail. It will stay straight, same with walls. You’re convincing no one but yourself here.I've worked on a ton of old homes and still do. Some walls are straight and some are crooked. Most of the walls are straight when you sight them but they have sags in them do to undersized headers. If the walls have ins and outs in them, they are not due to shrinkage or whatever you call it. I would say it was poor framing.What’s it going to take for you to realize that this is only taking place where you’re from and not anywhere else?
Joe Carola
This is at least the second thread (the other, as I recall, was one asking what we enjoy about our choice of career)that Frenchy's hijacked extolling the virtues of his hand-crafted double timber frame home. I have no doubt it's a beautiful job, he's evidently put a lot of time and money into it. I wish he'd post pictures of it, and provide us with a detailed description, and regale us with tales of his craftsmanship, expertise, and unerring attention to detail so we will all be as impressed with it (and him) as he is. And then never hear about it again. Please.
Until then, I'd just as soon not read posts that are only peripherally germane to the subject, especially those that border on sarcasm toward those of us who actually work with our hands producing quality projects.
I don't agree with you about Frenchy.
Frenchy is just tossing out his point of view because he has had some significant experiences with shrinkage. This is a perfect thread to add his insight and especially since the thread has run it's course.
blue
blueyeddevil,
Thank you, that was insitefull. Your post to Tomrocks 21212
Framer,
Please don't make an assumption.. the errors I note daily are usually within the tolerance most accept for homes.. I've visited most of the country and I'm sure in your state. If you are critical and honest you'll note them yourself.
Heck if it doesn't happen why do all directions for installing kitchen cabinets call for scribbing the wall? (yes in new construction)..
Now maybe because we are working with wood I shouldn't expect or even think about tolerances and just accept eye sweet.. If that is what you are really saying then sure, most homes are eye sweet! Especially everything you do..
Frenchy,I'm not saying that lumber doesn't shrink or move at all. I know studs can move in or out even if they were perfectly straight when I framed the walls. I go back and check the walls and if one has moved, I will replace it.You’re the one who started all this about TOP PLATES moving in and out like spaghetti, remember? I’m saying that they don’t and the top plates stay straight. I’m doing and add-a-level right now and the top plates are perfect when I checked with my line. However, up and down isn’t that great.""Heck if it doesn't happen why do all directions for installing kitchen cabinets call for scribbing the wall? (yes in new construction)..""If the wall that kitchen cabinets are on is in or out, it’s do to a bad stud, not the top or bottom plates. If a bottom plate is in or out, then the framer nailed it wrong and didn’t follow the chalkline. If the top plate is in or out, the framer didn’t sight or string the walls right and brace them properly.I just disagree with you about top plates moving in and out like spaghetti.I’m not lying to you about the walls on this add-a-level as far as being straight. All the add-a-levels and dormers I’ve been working on, the existing walls have been straight. Just up and down are the problems.One house I did an add-a-level on about ten years ago was so bad and did look like spaghetti. I had to frame a roof/apron across the front between the first and second floor just to cover it up (from the street) anyway not the soffit. The builder or homeowner didn’t have in the budget to fix the first floor wall, so putting the roof across the front worked out okay.Joe Carola
Edited 9/2/2006 10:05 am ET by Framer
Framer,
I've mixed my arguements, don't remember where but someplace I commented about bowed studs instead of bowed and wavy top and bottom plates..
Most of the wavyness I see at top and bottom plates are due to sloppy or poor workmanship. I'll grant that, however even the most carefully straightened walls can still move a bit..
Let me try to prove it to you..
take a carefully measured square constructed out of 2x material.. make sure it's square.. nail it according to your nailing schedule..
Now step on one corner.. OOPS!
No longer square right? That's what wind, loading, shrinkage, and sysmic movement can cause.
Now I'll grant you that if you make the square into a box which is what you are doing when you put the plywood on the exterior walls it quickly gets a great deal stiffer.. However you are still building a box. One of the weakest structures we've ever come up with. (compared to say a triangle or a dome)
"""""take a carefully measured square constructed out of 2x material.. make sure it's square.. nail it according to your nailing schedule.. Now step on one corner.. OOPS! No longer square right? That's what wind, loading, shrinkage, and sysmic movement can cause. Now I'll grant you that if you make the square into a box which is what you are doing when you put the plywood on the exterior walls it quickly gets a great deal stiffer.. However you are still building a box. One of the weakest structures we've ever come up with. (compared to say a triangle or a dome)""""""" Frenchy,You lost me on that, man! What the hell kind of an analogy is that? Stepping on a box and knocking it out of square! That proved absolutely nothing! Maybe if King Kong came up and gave a house a field goal kick, it will knock the house out of square or something.Your Timber framed house is square; don't you think this would happen to your house with your analogy? If King Kong kicked your house and my house, would yours stay square and mine be knocked out of square?Square structures are the weakest compared to triangles and domes. Maybe so, I don’t know. Then why are we building millions of square house if they’re so weak?You just don't like stick framed houses, do you?
Joe Carola
Framer,
Actually I think if King Kong were to step on my house he'd get a sore foot! ;) (27/12 pitch roof)
Aside from that I can tell you it might not move the house.. I can carry 10 tons per liner foot on my top plates..
My rafters will take over 15,000 pounds of force to pry loose from the top plate.
(a properly installed toe nailed rafter will take only 208 pounds to remove according to Fine Home Building)
Yeh, It's massively overbuilt, I'll never need that and I have all of that only because I wanted it to look massive and strong not because I have a fear of earthquakes here in Minnesota :) Besides it was cheap to do..
BUT!
You make a point which is the whole reason I mentioned my house at all.
a square is a lousy way to build a house..
No matter what you do it's not very strong..
As to stick building,
If we still all drove around in Model T's then I could understand why our houses are stick built. If gas was still 19cents a gallon I could understand it..
It's not, we've moved on and yet our homes and their method of construction sure hasn't has it?
Oh, we don't ballon frame as much as we used to and we use plywood instead of boards but other than those minor changes and the modern tools we build with a framer from 1919 would pretty much be able to frame today..
Since you brought it up, why do we build square houses?
Aren't the corners where the dust collects? aren't the corners where traffic doesn't go? The Buckminister Fuller geodesic domes of the late 40's early 50's have a great deal to offer, yet they are tough to build and thus not wildly accepted.
SIP's and ICF's hold a great deal of promise but again we're pretty much left with square homes..
I look forward to seeing the pictures. I happen to like timber frames, and have worked on a couple. I was involved some years ago in a house that was half stick-built and half timber frame. Part of our scope was preparing the first floor bearing points for placement of the bents, and it was painstaking work. Tedd Benson's crew came down to set the timbers and SIPs, and it was interesting watching them work. They brought 3 extra timbers, sized to be able to field-cut and replace any member that wasn't correct, and I don't remember them using any of them. Very nice job, I must say. I thought it was interesting that they tacked drywall to the frames before they sheathed, so any timber shrinkage would require a dab of mud and paint, rather than a strip of sheetrock. A friend of mine has a home that was framed with green oak, and there were gaps everywhere the gyp board met the timbers, after a year or so. Last year I replaced some structural timbers and purlins in a historic barn (with about 15' of 6x8 mudsill) by myself, including hand-cut mortises and scarf joints, and tenons that had to be "persuaded" into their final resting places. And all held in place with oak pegs. Not Benson-caliber work, but suitable for the barn.
Now, just a comment or two.... Very few nails in a home are loaded in withdrawal, most are in shear, so ease of pulling them isn't really a benchmark. A house sheathed in plywood or diagonal 1x doesn't get its racking strength because of any box beam configuration, and I doubt if the sheathing lends much to the structural stability, except that it will tie the individual studs together, thus avoiding "column effect". But one of the beauties of platform framing is that there is a good bit of redundancy in the structure. You can take out a pretty good section of wall in many cases without imminent failure of the framework. And the houses can be pretty durable. I'm on project right now, originally framed in about 1855, with 2x4 oak rafters and studs, probably built by the farmers that lived there, and it's in surprisingly good shape. More problems caused by the foundation sinking than from the framing. My barn project and the current job would both have been in much better shape had previous owners taken more care to keep water out.
And we build square houses largely because the market demands it. There have been many attempts over the years to sell domes and other configurations, but most people have a sense of tradition that requires a house to look like a house. Not a value judgment on my part, just reality. And stick-building involves the assembly of a lot of relatively lightweight pieces that can be handled by a small crew. Plenty of jobs I've been on had absolutely no access for a crane, and marshalling 50 or 60 men to raise a bent by hand would have been difficult.
Call me old-fashioned, but I'm still not 100% sure about ICFs and SIPs. Don't like OSB in any form, concerned about the relatively few screws or spikes holding SIPs to the frame, and I've seen enough carpenter ant infestations in foam to make me leery. But I'm also not so closed-minded that I can't be persuaded. At least I don't think I am.
Hi Tom..I would like to finish reading your post, but just can't seem to follow so many words without a break.
I'm not trying to complain, but just wanted to let you know that it would be way easier to read your post if you break it up a bit.
cheers
Tomrocks21212
Thank you for your post,
I took a slightly differant tack, I put the sheet rock onto the SIP's and then put the SIP's up into place. thus seams were hidden behind the timbers. Yeh, it meant that I had a bent every 48 inches but I liked the massive look that imparted.. Plus as cheap as I was able to buy timbers it was still a lot cheaper than stick built.. (the total wood cost for 5000 sq ft. of all hardwood home made of black walnut, white oak, and other fine wood was about $16,000)
(My labor is free)
You mentioned the ease of pulling a nail as not really being a bench mark. You are true as far as you took it.. However I've said that wood shrinks.. when it does it tends to shrink away from the head of the nail letting that nail be proud.. Now the wood that was so tight is far more free to move. (listen to your home on gusty windy days.. those creaks and moans aren't ghosts but wood movement around the nails..
Your comment about no strength obtained by the box beam formed with shething and studs has me confused..
The way to make a light and strong box beam is to nail plywood top and bottom of a 2x4 stud.
You can use 1/2 plywood and wind up with a stiffer and much lighter working plank than you can ever get with those custom laminated planks you buy from the scafold stores..
While I'll grant that sheetrock isn't terrible strong as the back part of of the box beam it never-the-less imparts a measure of strength that an open U section doesn't have. (sorry, too many engineering courses)
I understand your comment about redundancy.. to put in in Nautical terms. if you look at just how difficult it is to sink an Aircraft carrier, you'll understand it once you travel thru one.. it's simply loaded with box beam after box beam.. (The Navy calls them compartments)
Thus a houses walls are a connected series of box beams. (at least in stick built)
I completely agree with you regarding the comfort of tradition. Irony of Irony my house is basically a series of squares and rectangles. Me, the guy who rants about square houses is building one.. In fact because it's timberframed it's actually retro (in a sense if you ignore the structural effects of SIP's
Your comment about the ease of assembly is really the point, I think that because it's relatively easy to assemble an acceptable home with "sticks" it has developed a momentum of it's own..
That is nearing an end.. prefabricated wall assemblys erected with either a crane or forklift are quickly becoming the norm here in Minnesota.. (and much of the country).. several reasons for that..
First is weather.. inside a large factory out of the weather it's far more productive to build then out in the field..
Second is waste.. wood that becomes waste when building one house at a time is still usable and can be used in another home..
Third is labor costs.. a skilled carpenter who can field engineer solutions and think on his feet is an expensive person. Far cheaper to replace him with semi or unskilled factory workers who simply repeat motions so time motion studies can generate absolute efficencies.
Fourth is automation.. You have to see the process of wall assembly to believe it. In a fraction of the time it takes in the field to build a wall that giant machine has the walls built to tolerances most claim but few achieve.
Fifth is bulk purchasing.. a wall assembly plant has the purchasing power that no individual contractor can have.. instead of a truck load of wood a wall assembly plant buys by the train load..
The only problem with Wall plants is SIP's and ICF's
For a tiny fraction of the cost of a stick built wall you can make a panel that is 200% stronger and massively more efficent with regard to energy efficency's.
Your comments about OSB is similar to my thoughts as I first investigated Timberframing.. I thought they should make them out of plywood rather than OSB. OSB grumble, grumble, grumble.. Mutter, mutter, mutter.. blanity, blank, blank.....;)
However the more I reseached it the better I felt..
First with regard to Ants and other bugs,,
Buy panels that use Borite in the foam.. ants come, take a bite of the foam, get sick, and go away and die! End of bug problems..
(ps you can specify borite in the OSB and they don't even get to the foam)..
as for the crumbly nature of OSB.. I specified a variety of OSB that withstood weather fully exposed without any noted deteroriation for 4 years on the roof.. The manufactor recommends no more than 2 years exposure and I had actually been prepared to replace that section of panel but was shocked when this weekend I checked and there was no noticable deterioration. So instead of replaceing that panel I just went ahead and covered it with had split shakes, copper drip edge and copper flashing.. It held nails and such just like it was brand new..
The panel manufacturor doesn't want it sitting in water because like any wood it will wick up and eventually fail.
Like you I worried about the connection between panels and timbers.. The panel manufacturor calls for screws every four inches. Since each panel needs a screw every four inches and they are held together with splines nailed every two inches I kinda doubled the effective attachment by staggering the screws so every two inches in my timbers there is something holding the panel in place.. and then I clamped the panels with the exterior timbers and long lag screws..
Your 1855 house has me really interested..
It was built with oak studs and I'm sure they didn't assemble it with stainless steel anything..
I've used stainless because I was worried about the reaction of the tannic acids in oak and the ferrous iron in regular steel..
If you are absolutely sure it's not chestnut (which looks in grain to be very close to oak, is heavy like oak and even has the same kinda punky smell. It was very common back then before the advent of the chestnut blight) I'd love to know how the nails held up.. My calculations indicate that the nails sould be totally rusted and the wood around the nails absolutely rotted if indeed it is actually oak and not chestnut..
If the nails are still solid most likely you are working with chestnut.. I'm sure the owners would love to know that..
"However I've said that wood shrinks.. when it does it tends to shrink away from the head of the nail letting that nail be proud.. "
yes... have seen it many times on face nailed deck boards. on some old houses have seen it sometimes in the framing, other times have come across nails that are really tough to pull in some of that old wood.
however we use nail guns now, which sink the nails below the face of the wood. and I have done enough renos/additions on homes from the 80's to see that over time, nails from nail guns don't have a tendancy to protrude the way a hand nailed spike might.
on another note...another framer buddy I know went the factory to see some of the panels that you refer to being made, for the house that he was about to put together. said " you know how they squared the walls - by squareing it to the plywood"
pretty high tech - eh
also, I too don't get this 1/4" business.
framing off the foundation your darn rights we went for the 1/6" +-
wall plates within a 1/4"....no way. if thats' what were aiming for then forget the stringline.
There are certain things in framing that will never show that absolutley, you can get away with 1/4" or even more... usually stuff that gets compensated for within other framing. or simply won't show up...a joist or truss lay out for example.
Edited 9/5/2006 2:41 am ET by alrightythen
alrightythen.
At last a note of common sense.. Because I see home underconstruction in all stages of building I often see just what you are speaking about.. The good ones work within about the 1/4 tolerance the poor ones cover it all up with siding..
Once you slap some plastic siding you cover a lot of sins. Sins that will only show up later as the sun forms the plastic around the proud spots..
Hardie plank seems to cover even more sins for a while..
As far as nail guns sinking a nail below the surface, I read someplace where that's actually a no-no.. you lose a lot of strength that way, kinda like setting a sheet rock screw below the paper..
Anyway if the wood shrinks the head of the nail may not protrude if it's counterset but the will be a slight gap under the head of the nail causing the loose board symptom..
Yes, I saw exactly that sort of assembly process at a few panel plants I visited.. The worst was a place where they stacked panel after panel on top of the one below and used the weight of the top panels to bond the lower panels.. (in their credit they did use the top panel as the bottom panel of the next days panel stack.. I guess that's like kissing your sister if you get one of the top panels) Needless to say that's not the brand I selected..
"As far as nail guns sinking a nail below the surface, I read someplace where that's actually a no-no.. you lose a lot of strength that way, kinda like setting a sheet rock screw below the paper.."
That may be the case in theory, and I know what you are talking about...but I am not talking about shooting your nails so that they sink halfway thru the face of a stud. ( which is the "no no" that you read about" - over sinking)
it is the same with drywall...screws are not set flush they are counter sunk, just a bit....but not over sunk, or yes you will have problems.
a properly shot nail from a nail gun will sink just below the surface. what I am talking about is from experiance and observations. if you were to set the pressure for your gun so that it were to set flush..one would continually get nails all over the place, that will set proud.
it seams that you are an inteligent guy who has seen alot, and read alot. and done alot when it comes to certain things. But you are not a framer obviously, whether good or bad is the difference from you and guys like diesel, framer and myself.
You have got skills with timberframing, that I lack experience in so, I will leave that to you. But there are major difference between the two
cheers
If you ever have to face a shear-wall inspection, you had better hope your framing nails are set flush and not counter-sunk just below the surface.View Image
I've had many...and shear walls and sheathing plywood in general is not at all what I am referring to, but you raise a good point.
sometimes I hit the wall sheathing and have to lower the pressure a bit, to avoid just the thing you are talking about. Then when the lumber is getting nailed sometimes it goes back up, to avoid the nailes sticking up. I want enough pressure to get the nail in there. - gotta get me some newer Framing nailers that self adjust :)
usually it is not a problem, but sometimes adjustments need to be made.
When I nail lumber together I nail at an angle, which means no such thing as really flush. either part of the nail head sticks up or part sticks below, if it stickes up I pound it in with the Estwing.
Edited 9/6/2006 2:27 am ET by alrightythen
alrightythen,
I really don't have more timberframing skill than you or any of the framers here. I simply decided to do it.. No schools, no training, just buy some tools and go ahead and do it..
Before that I read a great deal and carefully considered the ramifications of what I going to do.. Worst case would be if I failed and needed somebody to come in and take over... However I didn't really anticipate that as a problem. I've already done much in my life that proved to me that I could succeed if I wanted to.. In fact in My whole life I never really failed at anything I wanted to succeed at. (not bragging simply trying to convey the confidense I feel).. Boy, there is no way to say that without sounding like a braggert.. for that I apologize.
The respect I have for those who have spoken about framing techniques is very real.. I understand how to do it.. I've taken part it it a bit but never the day to day grind needed to make a living at it.. To me that's the real hero part of your job.. dealing with the problems and hassles and face it daily grind of making homes for people.. The actual techniques aren't terribly complex, especially when you are around it for the past 15 years as I have been..
It's kinda like driving a nail..
The pro may be able to flush a nail in a stroke or too less than a guy like myself.. The pro may be able to do it faster and much more efficently than an amateur but I've seen poor jobs done by pros and amateurs alike as well as some astonishly great jobs done by real amatuers.. The pro you actually expect it from and that's not very fair.. They do it well and still can make a profit while us amateurs don't have the same worries..
I wish you could see the work my sister did building her house.. It's stick framed and she did all of the cuts.. every single one from straight cuts so accurite as to be almost piano quailty to the rafter tails in each dormer that would put most pro's to shame..
Nope she'd never built before either.. Her and her husband designed and built their home to a standard that would impress the most severe critic.
They tore it down and slept in a tent in their living room during the severe winter we have here in Minnesota. Only a blue tarp between them and the sky with a garage heater pumped into the tent to keep them from freezing..
Because it's stick framed she was able to complete the framing in a little over a year of part time work. They are now in the final stages of finish work while I still have about another 4 or 5 years before my house will finally be finished.. Both worked at extremely demanding full time plus jobs and then came home to work on their house..
nice post
if you were to set the pressure for your gun so that it were to set flush..one would continually get nails all over the place, that will set proud.
If you are using the pressure to adjust your depth, you certainly will get nails all over the place.
To set depth, you adjust your driver length. You don't monkey with the pressure till it just barely shoots!
blue
I believe I mentioned in my response to diesel, about needing to get some newer framing guns that have self adjustment on them.
and I certainly don't need to moneky around with it - from time to time an adjustment needs to be made. it's not something that warrants me to trade in all my guns for new ones.
But if you have some extra's lying around...I'll be happy to take em off yer hands ;)
Edited 9/6/2006 10:04 am ET by alrightythen
""My own walls which were set plumb level and true as I could possibly get them..had a slight bow as I installed the trim and shakes on my south wall. as the heating season progressed I watched the wall bow more and more..Now this is a timberframe home.. paneled with SIP's."" Frenchy,What does all this talk about stick framed houses and the walls bowing and weaving or whatever you keep thinking they will do have to do with your Timber framed house?""and you expect mere 2x's to remain straight? Can you imagine to force and power it takes to bend a 6x12 inch white oak an inch and three quarters?""How can you compare that either?Have you ever stick framed a house before?Are you calling every one of us liars?Everyone here is telling you that we frame our walls with double top plates using strings to straighten them and we NEVER get wavy, bowed walls like you THINK in your mind for some strange reason we get.What's up, Frenchy?Don’t you think by now that we would’ve all been called back to let us know that the walls in the thousands and thousands of houses and additions that we’ve all framed before were all crooked.Moisture Meters!I’ve never even seen one before. Do you actually think that every one use them for framing? I wonder house much moisture in the lumber that I’ve scraped snow off before has in it. What happens to a house that’s being framed and you get four days of rain? Are we supposed to take out a moisture meter and check all the lumber?I’m sure you have to do all this with Timber framing but not with stick framing.
Joe Carola
Framer,
Do me a little favor will you?
The next time you are in an older neighborhood will you look at the walls of most houses?
Just sight down them..
See the wavyness?
Do you honestly think that carpenters didn' t try to build straight walls in the past?
Do you think they didn't care?
Do you somehow feel that stright level plumb and true is something that you created?
I apologize for that last snide comment..
I was overly eager to make my point..
No, I am not calling every carpenter who works so hard to build nice homes a liar. I am saying that the bending bowing etc. happens over time and long after the carpenter is gone.
The reason it occured on my timberframe so quickly is that those big powerful white oak timbers had much more force than some little 2x4 made out of western white wood or spruce, fir, whatever...
Yes I've stick framed a house before.. No it's not my career, but I've built several...
I mention the use of moisture meters because so many carpenters I've met are convinced that they use dry wood.. I mean it often feels dry to their hands and even if it gets wet from rain snow etc. that isn't the force that is causing those 2x4's to bend or bow.
You need to understand the differance between bound water and free water with regard to wood.
The bound water that is released as the wood dries is a lot differant from the water that evaporates from a rain or snow etc..
That release of bound water is what makes a chunk of wood want to move around..
Wavyness in older homes is partially due to balloon framing. And outdated techniques. Overspanned lumber, lack of headers, point loads being removed somewhere down the line where the roof actually pushes walls out via floor joists, ceiling joists, and studs that are 25' long.
Just my observation. Not worth a whole lot. I care, after all it's my company.
Stilletto,
You are correct.. some of the wood movement in older homes is due to ballon framing, overloading or other such problems. But I was thinking of homes like my grandparents. Simple, small one story ranch homes built with 16 inch OC walls in much the same way we build today.. Often built with old growth fir.
Where they remain, they have all of the wavyness and bowing that I mentioned..
Yes there may be a few that aren't.. thru a lucky combination of pressures against pressure they remain reasonably straight and true.. The ones that aren't are often found in the dumpsters..
"""" Six inches by six inch white oak timbers moving that much with a 6 inch x12 inch top plate (also white oak) 48 inches on center.. and you expect mere 2x's to remain straight? Can you imagine to force and power it takes to bend a 6x12 inch white oak an inch and three quarters?""""Frenchy,Just one more thing about that as I see that almost like comparing it to a 27'x 5-1/2" x 11-7/8" LVL that I received one day from a lumber yard that had a 1" bow in it when it arrived; I naturally sent it back because it was for an outside wall with rafters on it.My point is that with a bean of 5-1/2" x 11-7/8" the whole thing is bowed in or out, not just sections of it like you say a top plate of 2x's would do to look like a piece of spaghetti.Same thing with your 6x12, the whole thing moved naturally because it's one piece. If you have a whole house of 6x12 beams for you walls and one decides to move, I think that the whole piece wants to move not just a small section.If you don't believe me then ask King Kong.............;-)Joe Carola
davidmeiland.
your framing material is nice and dry? You call 19% moisture nice and dry?
Do you use a moisture meter or just "feel" the board?
Trees growing in the forest can have a moisture content as low as 25%. Following the milling process you'll find moisture is around 21 or 22% to get a KD rating the wood only needs to be lowered a couple of percent.. ( the tolerance is 2%) OFTEN THE ONLY TIME THE WOOD IS ACTUALLY IN THE KILN IS WHEN THEY ROLL IT THRU TO BE ALLOWED TO STAMP KILN DRIED
MY timbers all measured less than 10% moisture and yet as they dried they moved around like a drunken sailor.
another framer jumping on the framing band wagon here. I really dont get how you can compare your timber frame to stick frame.
One of your timbers that is going to move, how does that relate to plates that are nailed to joists or ceiling joists every 16" or 24 " oc.
you implied that it would take very little pressure to move a 2x4 plate because, your timbers can move. but the drying forces that would tend to warp and twist a 2x4 sitting on it's own.. have to counteract the stabilizing forces of everything that is tied into that top plate.
as far as bowed walls go, it's also not the plates your looking at. it's the studs which is another thread. If you got crooked walls at the bottom or the top. you weren't on your line and you nailed it up that way.... there's no excuse or reason for crooked top plates.
...and by the way....I'll sight a short wall and string the rest. The eyes do see straight but can also be fooled.
I'll agree with alrightythen. Just as everyone else has said, double top plate the wall on the sub floor with the straightest plates you can find. From there, I'll climb up a ladder and sight the wall after it's standing to find out where I need to put the braces so I can pull the wall in or out as need be. If you can't use an absolutely straight top plate, put the crown down of the top plate as its a lot easier to push the top plate out then it is to bring it in.
Once the second floor floor joists or roof trusses are nailed to the top plate and the sheathing or sub floor is laid and nailed down, there isn't much of a chance of any wall moving in my experience. Isn't that why we wait to pull all braces till everything is all shot off? And to further the topic of what I call braces, I'm talking about 2x4 or 2x6's that are nailed at the very top of a stud and touch the top plate, nailing into a wall stud 2/3s or 3/4s of the way don't cut it in my world.
I nail a 2x4 in each corner of the longest walls and use a 2x4 block as a gage block. I use the same block on every wall and I check the string with my gage block at each corner. Just wrapping the string around the corner 2x4 isn't close enough for me. If I need to move the string in or out to match my gage block I'll use an 8 to move the string to where it should be according to my gage block. Shorter walls, 10 to 15 feet are eyeballed, any thing much more then that gets the string treatment.
If conventional roof trusses aren't used, as in over frame, collar ties will keep things in check long after I'm gone. If the walls move after the roof or second floor is on that doesn't fall on us as carpenters, someone who designed the stuff had their head up their #### or they just didn't know what they were doing. As sad as it might sound, as long as I build to the print, my company has its #### covered.Jeff"rough framing" is just an expression
jeff:
<<<If the walls move after the roof or second floor is on that doesn't fall on us as carpenters, someone who designed the stuff had their head up their #### or they just didn't know what they were doing. As sad as it might sound, as long as I build to the print, my company has its #### covered.>>>
you're right, it does sound sad
oh... and no.. you don't have your Azz covered... it's still hanging in the windMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
alrightythen
A timber frame and a stick frame are similar.. both are built with wood, both use the strength of wood and suffer from the weakness of wood..
I think you and I can agree that we are speaking about something else altogether when we speak about errors in assembly..
Let me be perfectly clear here..
I'll assume that everybody here builds straight walls..
Heck this magazine is named hack builders or get by builders but rather fine home builders.. (er, building) Having said that, wood moves..
It can move quickly like toss a straight 2x4 on the ground and pick up a week later.. see what I'm speaking about?
or it can move slowly.
Go into any older neighbor hood and sight down those walls. I'll bet that when they were built they appeared straight and true..
"If your walls are string straight as the wood dries they will bow and weave enough that those following you will still have to make corrections.."Frenchy,This is what I like about the internet and opinions. That has to be the furthest thing from the truth that I've read in a while.I've been framing walls and nailing my top plates down on the deck for 23 years and string all me walls after rain snow sleet and hail, even scraping snow and ice off the plates. Nailing my joists on and framing away.Never once have I heard that my walls were bowing and weaving as you say after they dry out from those who follow my framing such as the sheetrockers, trimmers, cabinet hangers, floor guys.......etc.After the walls are dried and the joists, decking, second floor walls, rafters, plywood, roof shingles.......... are on top of the walls. How are the walls weaving and bowing like a Go Go Dancer???Joe Carola
This is the first time I saw this thread for some reason, and I am having a hard time believing that plates move at all after joists and rafters or trusses are nailed to them.
Like framer said, I as well scrape ice and snow off the plates to nail or mark on. Never had a problem.
I'm only half as dumb as I look.
All.... gezz, I'm getting old, build the wall on the floor . double top plate it , lay out top plate, sheet it raise it, plumb corners , plumb wall where and when interior walls butt, go up the ladder and eyeball the wall and leave the string in the truck ( if your good enough to see a crown in a 2x4 you good enough to eyeball an exterior wall trust your self ). If you get worried trust my friend Boss Hog's truss'es to telegraph something wrong by watching the bottom cord of the truss in relation to the top double plate on both ends
ah, the blueyedevil school of wall siting
so, stringmakers don't gotta eat too ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike, strings are for snapping lines.
I've used strings on walls when the wall was too unwieldy to get it started straight. After I use the string, I still site it by eye and there are ALWAYS tweaks that need to be done.
I think the last time I nailed a string up was a couple years ago....maybe five or six.
blue
i knew that..
that's why i figgered he went to your school..
guess i don't have to tell you i missed you........Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike....Ole "blue" is one of those no strings attached sort of guy....me to :) .figure those string guys are eaten pretty good from the number of chalk lines I replace ( red always breaks first)
You got to use mason lines, especially on 60' walls. I was taught to sight walls when I first started framing and I've seen other guy’s sight walls before and they suck. If you don’t have a good eye, you don't have straight walls. If you were drunk the night before your walls lok drunk after you sight them.It takes two minutes to string a wall. I tack a piece of 5/4 on all the corners and wrap the line around all four walls in one shot. Then take a piece of 5/4 about 3' long a stick it between the mason line and the plate and slide the plate in or out and that's it. Any idiot can do it.I've gone through the guys who have sighted walls before when I wasn’t there and to come back and check the walls and see how drunk the walls look never made me happy. So it's just as easy to string them and be done with it. I don't care what anyone says, in my opinion, there's no way that your eye will sight a wall straighter then a string.If that was the case, then why snap lines for the plates. Just sight the shoes and nail them in.
Joe Carola
Joe....Ain't life great ? (:
there's no way that your eye will sight a wall straighter then a string.
If that was the case, then why snap lines for the plates. Just sight the shoes and nail them in.
I strongly disagree.
I've used strings on walls but always give it a looksee after the walls are straight. There is ALWAYS some spot that needs tweaking.
You mention that you are working with drunks and that might explain why they cant sight a wall straight. Perhaps you might think about upgrading your crew?!
The reason that we don't sight the shoe plates is because we would have to bend down and put our cheek on the plywood and lay our eye against the shoe plate. That isn't as easy as it sounds. Also, there are several other reasons. In most cases, we use the worst plate stock for our bottom plates because we know we can nail it straight to the line. We use all the bad stuff on the bottom and toenail back and forth till it's straight. That's not something you want to do using another guy to eyeball it.
60' long walls presents a much more significant challenge than the normal bevvy of 20' to 40' walls that we encounter on most of our customs. In most cases, when I climb up a ladder and peek at a 20' wall, it is absolutely straight because we ONLY USE STRAIGHT STOCK ON THE TOP PLATES. On 90% of our walls, all we have to do is put a holder or two or three on it.
The 60' wall challenge is easily handled by plumbing two spots. This essentially breaks the wall into three 20' segments. Since the tops plates are already straight, it is very easy to instantly see if the two previously anchored spots line up. In theory, if we've snapped a straight 60' line and plumbed up perfectly at those two spots, the entire wall will be instantly straight. In 90% of our cases, it would be and we'd quickly be adding three more "holders".
The key to having really easy straight walls is to NOT CUT OUT THE BUCKS!
Joe, sober those guys up and give them a sighting test. If they can't pass the sighting test, fire them. A carpenter that can't see a crown is useless if you are trying to build decent homes.
blue
i told you Joe,
blue's hardcore and has eyes like a laser
they don't call him BE-devil for shids & gigglesMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Sometimes I call Blue on the phone..... and he sights my walls for me. All the way from Michigan. Then he tells me I'm too slow and I complain too much. It's awesome. :)
FWIW, I agree with him. We string our walls, but I always get up and check 'em by eye before moving on. Every now and again I'll spot a whip in the wall that somehow got by the string test. 2x6 walls are great though..... they practically straighten out on their own.View Image
brian...... i have a dream........
a dream......
that blue , and carola, and fusco, will, one day, come down from the mountain,
and grace our presence with their beings......
i think that day will be known as DieselpigFest
a day not too far in the future.....
btw .. how do you think i'll look in an aqua speedo ?
geesh... for something like that we could even lure timuhler in the west Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
btw .. how do you think i'll look in an aqua speedo ?
Fabulous. I'd like to suggest the thong style.
I'm not going down no mountain. I have no grace. And I dont' have any time, nor money.
Framers are agoraphobic and anti-social Mike. They only come out when the weather sucks and there's nobody else on the site. There'd be nothing to complain about if it were any other way. I'm the exception to the rule.... and that's why all the other framers pick on me. ;)View Image
Quit picking on me Mike.
You guys make too big a deal out of stringing those walls. Just stop hacking up the doubled top plate and your walls will be as straight as an arrow too.
When I started straigtening walls as a rookie, we used to cut out all the top plates for the intersecting partitions. This turns every wall into a nightmare piece of spaghetti, with no structural integrity. By leaving the second plate intact, it SIGNIFICANTLY increases the rigidity of the wall and just about every wall I look at is so straight it would be foolish to put string on it. You guys hack up your walls, then have to work you azzes off to get them back straight. If I were forced to lap the plates, I'd leave them solid, till it was up and braced, then go up ladders and cut the pockets. It would save a ton of time, but don't worrry, I haven't lapped the plates since the 80's and I'm not about to going down the stretch.
Laser eyes my azz. I teach my one day rookies how to spot crowns in joist and if they cant see the 1/8" crown, I would get rid of them because it's not that hard to see if your truly interested in seeing it.
I did figure out where the north star is though this weekend....
blue
whine, whine , whine... what's this "picking on you" ?
i stopped cutting my top plates a long time ago also..
but that has nothing to do with wether or not we string a wall..
we always string a wall . and the string stays in place until the subfloor is on so we can get a visual if anything moves
but, that's just the way i want it done..
your job, your method
... so ....whadda ya think of my plan to entice all the framers to one fest ?
think it would draw 'em out of the woods ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
we always string a wall . and the string stays in place until the subfloor is on so we can get a visual if anything moves
Has anything every moved?
stopped cutting my top plates a long time ago also..
Smart man.
so ....whadda ya think of my plan to entice all the framers to one fest ?
All the framers are alway invited so your plan isn't anything unusual. Framers are usually too poor to take off work or too poor because they haven't been working. They aren't making the big money that you remoder's make.
blue
Blue,
I have to say that since we stopped notching our topplates, per your suggestion, and using those metal plates to connect the walls, they do require less moving and persuading.
Tim, we also put a closed cornice system on the wall (3/8" x 12" plywood). That soffit system adds a significant degree of rigidityto the wall. On most of our 40' walls, when I sight them, I only need a very insignificant push one way or the other. I'm talking maybe 1/8" in or out in one or two spots. Quite often when I look, I just tell the guy to put some holders on it.
It should be noted that I spent a great deal of time straightening walls in my first decade. We used to spend four hours to straighten a house. Now that same house would take me about ten minutes with a helper.
blue
"I've used strings on walls but always give it a looksee after the walls are straight. There is ALWAYS some spot that needs tweaking."Blue,I tack a piece of 5/4 on all outside corners and then run the string around the whole perimeter. I then take a piece of 5/4 about 3'long and stick it up against the outside of the top plate and push the wall in or out until the piece of 5/4 just about touches the line and then nail the braces.There’s no room for era that way and they are nice and straight. No going back and tweaking anything for me that way. "Joe, sober those guys up and give them a sighting test. If they can't pass the sighting test, fire them. A carpenter that can't see a crown is useless if you are trying to build decent homes."I agree, but I don't have any drunks working for me. Those days are long gone. My point was that some guys just can't sight a wall; they can sight a crown in a joist, stud or rafter, but not a wall.String a wall and you have no worries at all because any idiot can slide a stick until it hits a line.Joe Carola
Framer.....I agree with you..but if one is not as thurough as you with your "spacer stick" one could overlook a 2' section that may happen to have a short "hump in it"
this can be eleviated pretty much by choosing good stock for your top plates.
However, having worked on larger size crews ( up to 8) you just can't seem to get everyone to be as selective as you or I might be when choosing there plate material. so sometimes tweaking may be necessary with an extra brace that you wouldn't normally put in .
Boy you said it about some guys can't sight a wall.... I recall a few years back watching a guy sight a wall while my boss nailed the brace... from clear across the other side of the house I yelled " you call that straight!?" I told my boss to get him to string it if he cant' see straight.
"Framer.....I agree with you..but if one is not as thurough as you with your "spacer stick" one could overlook a 2' section that may happen to have a short "hump in it"I only use the best 2x's for top plates. If there was a 2' section that had a hump or something in it, then someone used a real piece of garbage for a top plate and should get hit in the head with it when he rips it off.......;-)I was taught to sight walls from my boss Carl who had Blue eyes. He used to joke around and say no one can sight walls good without blue eyes. Since I have blue eyes he said I was good…….;-)The way he taught me was to look at a wall when he got done sighting it tacking in braces where all the joints were getting the biggest section out of the way first, and then nailing everything off. He would tell me to go up and sight his wall and that's what he wanted.I had a good blue eye for sighting walls and some other guys did but it just wasn't there for a lot of guys and I would just get pissed when I would sight a wall after someone sighted it and say "Were your eyes closed?"… "Did Stevey Wonder sight this wall?"……. "Are you drunk?"..................etc.Like I said earlier, I can't be there every second anymore because I have to run a business and the guys stringing walls for me means less problems in the long run.
Joe Carola
You use the same top plates I use, and any slight crowns get reversed....number 2 grade for bottom plates number 3 grade for cut ups.....
My brown eyes work fine on short walls, but the longer stuff gets the string.
I've gone through the guys who have sighted walls before when I wasn’t there and to come back and check the walls and see how drunk the walls look never made me happy.
Hmmm....did you "see how drunk the walls look" with a string, or with your eyes?
Late to the party, sorry."...never charged nothing for his preaching, and it was worth it, too" - Mark Twain
This is actually addressed to all. I've read through this discussion, and would like to make it very clear that I totally agree that top plates that are nailed every 16" or 2' to either a joist, truss or rafter stay as straight as the day they were nailed off. Shrinkage or bows due to moisture leaving the wood cannot significantlly alter the straightness of a top plate in this situation.
What about an exterior wall that runs for a significant length parallel to the floor joists, that doesn't have any interior walls along it? After it has been strung or sighted for straight, the only things that lock it into place (where I live) is drywall backing and the rim joist. Lets suppose that the super straight top plates both decide to bow inwards towards the living space, as does the flat 2x used for drywall backing. (I'm assuming that this all occurs before drywall because the drywall will also lock it in) This could be a situation where top plates move after the fact.
Seems like blocking a couple of joist bays every ten feet would help lock the wall in by connecting to the upper sub floor shear plane.
I've never added the blocking, and only mention this because one time I could shake a wall in this situation pretty good by pushing pulling on the king stud trimmer combo for a french door that was on the wall. The addition of a covered front porch eliminated the flimsyness of the wall in question, but has always been in the back of my mind. I should also note that it was a 2x ext. wall. We are not allowed to do those anymore here with the new energy code.
"What about an exterior wall that runs for a significant length parallel to the floor joists, that doesn't have any interior walls along it? After it has been strung or sighted for straight, the only things that lock it into place (where I live) is drywall backing and the rim joist."Other than perpendicular walls holding them in place I install blocking every 8' nailed to the last joists and the top plate. On top of the joists the decking glued holds it in place. For the ceiling joist I run strong-back every 8' perpendicular to the parallel walls nailed along side gable studs.When framing hip roofs we come in and double the last ceiling joists and run perpendicular joist nailed with hangers to the double and out nailed to the top plate and nailed along side the rafters.
Joe Carola
I'm glad to hear this Joe. I mentioned blocking the last couple of joist bays to a framing sub one time. The look on his face told me I may be off my rocker, thanks for getting me back on it. (almost)
I started my career on a production framing crew and even worked framing custom homes. I've never blocked that last bay, until today.
I've seen framers that don't block in between the ceiling joist above the interior parallel walls. A wall running parallel to the ceiling joist can land in the center of the joists. The strong-back will hold the top of the joists but what will hold the wall other then the sheetrock to the nailers. I always nail blocks on top of the nailers that are nailed to the top plate and then nail the blocks to the ceiling joists.
Joe Carola