I’m getting real close to running the low voltage stuff in our new house. I’m definitely planning on having a structured wiring main distribution panel, but I’m still undecided on the cable- bundled (i.e. this stuff: http://www.broadbandutopia.com/belhomcomcab2.html), or individuals?
I realize that pulls would be easier with bundled, but I have a few areas in the house where I want additional phone connections and not coax.
Also, is there a preference on the distribution panel location? I’ve narrowed my options down to: 1) the upstairs laundry room or 2) downstairs hallway.
Neither location allows for running a straight conduit between floors for future pulls, so I have to put it all in now.
Any pros/cons, or real experience with both options?
Thanks!
Replies
I'd go with individual wires in conduit, unless the bundle is exactly what you need at a better price. The conduit doesn't *have* to be absolutely straight. It helps, though. LB's and pull boxes along the way can make the job easier.
Also, be sure to make the gentlest bends -- largest radiuses -- you can. There's an EMT bender for that, I think the name is Ericson or Jensen, that does 12" radiuses on 1/2" thru 1" IIRC.
-- J.S.
JohnSprung,
Thanks for the input, but are you suggesting that all the cat and coax cables be pulled through PVC conduit? I've never seen it done that way, besides, the way my house is built it would be nearly impossible to get all those conduit runs to all the rooms.
I've always seen the low voltage stuff run just like Romex- gentle bends where you need them and lightly staple.
I only mentioned conduit in my post because I was thinking about an empty conduit that can be used for future runs, years down the road.
Thanks.
Conduit not only allows for MUCH easier future expansion (or replacement of an existing cable, if necessary), but offers protection from drill bits, wall anchors, piffin screws, etc.
You could use PVC or EMT. With EMT, you can make bends as you need them. Is this a finished house, or are you at the framing and rough electrical stage?
The beauty of conduit everywhere -- running from boxes in the walls either up to the attic or down to the crawl or basement -- is that you can pull in whatever they invent in the future, whenever they invent it. The life of a house is a whole lot longer than the life of any particular cable or fiber optic standard. You can also more easily change the purpose of rooms, say swapping a home office with a child's bedroom.
Bottom line, if you see studs, put in conduit.
-- J.S.
Not to hijack the OP, but if he wants to run conduit, but has a lot of obstructions, could he use something flexible, like Liquidtight Non-Metallic Conduit? Not as tough as PVC or EMT, but easy to make any angle you want. Comments?
Yes, you can use flex. Easier to install now, but often harder to pull thru later.
As for wireless, the problem you'll run into is that there's just so much RF spectrum, it's been in use for over 100 years, and the tangled mess of frequency assignments, beat frequencies, harmonics, etc. make it a very iffy proposition as we add more stuff and convert to digital TV. Check the fine print on a lot of wireless stuff, and there's something from the FCC about how this device isn't allowed to interfere with anything else, but it must accept any interference it gets from other stuff.
-- J.S.
I think the bundled cable saves on installation costs, but is (lots) more expensive per foot. If you're supplying the labor, it would then be cheaper to do indivuuals.
I put my panel in the basement, in a somewhat central location.
IMHO it's alot easier to run the cables without conduit. You don't need to install boxes, just mud rings (or open-backed low voltage "boxes") that the trim plates screw on to. That makes it easy to pull the wired out of the wall cavity for installing connectors, and then stuff it back in.
Some folks like using the flexible nonmetallic conduit (blue "smurf tube"), but I think its more trouble than it's worth. Another idea is just to install an empty 2" PCV conduit from basement to attic, in order to make future runs easier to install.
Smurf S*cks....
the fittings crack, and if it's not well supported, you can't pull new/replacement cable through it...which sort of defeats the whole point of conduit, don'cha think
Oh yea Smurs stinks. However just straight runs is all I had in mind. Just to get it floor to floor is enough if the path is straight or from basement up a wall in a room planned to be an office. It works easier if you don't go cheap and undersize the tube.Jack of all trades and master of none - you got a problem with that?
Don't get too carried away with your wiring.I'm in agreement with Barryo,just do individual catv and cat5 runs to a central bsmt location with a 2' conduit to the attic for any future additions....but that is very unlikely with the rapid advances in wireless modem technology...every newer laptop has a built in wireless card and wireless home networks are very secure and user friendly.
a 2' conduit would be a shaft...
be had to say it..
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Coleman makes the same stuff. Not many people use it. I suppose it would be quicker to do as a bundle but if no one stocks it you 'll be buying a unit of 500 foot or more. If you are building a mansion then that might be a good way to go but for the common house of 2 to 3 k foot the 500 foot roll of Cat 5E and 500 of CAtv cable is more than enough even with dual parallel runs of each. Besides the larger the cable the more of a PITA it is to pull.
I had that option when I built my place. I had the advantage of buying it at cost form the company I work for. As it was, there is over a 50 % premium for the 4 combined cables. It didn't make sense to me then and the market hasn't really accepted it. However it does make it easier to identify the cables when they get back to the Distribution cabinet. Get a wire marker book or a printer and label up the single wires and you'll be just as well off.
As for the floor to floor runs, put in some 'smurf tube'. (blue or grey ) PVC corrugated conduit for future runs. Low voltage is fine for that stuff.
Put the distribution box in the basement or somewhere you'll have the incoming CATV signal as well as the phone line. Upstairs is kinda pointless unless you have an aerial drop of both signals. Wherever it is you need to have a great ground.
Remember that 'radio' modems are in existance now. I'd seriously wonder why anyone would run as many cat 5 cables or even catv cable with the new technology. Between those and cell phones you can access the net anywhere within 200 foot just by putting in an antenna in a pc or a printer. The antenna costs as much as the box, faceplate , and jack for CAT5E. Plus... count your phones. I own 4 cellulars and only have one line in the house (of course with 6 extensions)
Put in a representative assortment in each room, but I believe the future belongs to wireless.
Final fun thought. TV ought to be located on the sunless wall of the house. At this point it is easy to spin the design before the features are built in. No sense having the sun play across the TV screen.
Do you need 2 Cat5e and 2 coax? There was a time when people pulled coax for computer networks, but no more.
Pete
Dual RG-6 Coax can be handy for satellite TV - especially if you keep your cable for the local stations. As for the dual Cat5e, most installations use one for the LAN and the other for voice.
The structured cable assemblies are pretty rigid, and can be a pain to route neatly. I helped a friend terminate about 40 drops of structured cable in a new house, and it took forever to dress everything.
I would go with individual cables - plan to run more than you expect to use. Another benefit of individual cables is that it's easier to segregate them by type if you don't want to use one of those all-in-one distribution boxes.
Bob
Edited 11/9/2006 9:27 pm ET by bobguindon
Edited 11/9/2006 9:27 pm ET by bobguindon
Just a couple of comments...
We're remodeling and the missus wants to wire up our house like a friggin' office building as well. Can't understand why we need a dozen+ internet connection points for just the 2 of us, but that's another (painful) argument...
Location of a data wiring closet is much more flexible than for an electrical subpanel, for example. Put it anywhere's you want, just make sure it's convenient. You might want to make sure 110v is available in cause you need to install switches, amplifiers, hubs, blah blah. You probably don't want to have to run your data lines too close to your houses' electrical lines (at least for any significant length) to minimize EM coupling (can degrade your data rates).
If you're already stuffing "cat-whatever" and phone and cable and ... into every room, I don't see the need for worrying about conduit "future upgrades". Any radical upgrade will probably involve changing walls...
There's a lot of merit to the previous posters' comment regarding wireless. Yes, spectrums do tend to get more congested with time. But, new modulation schemes and other bandwidth-enhancing technologies continue to find more of it, or allow us to more efficiently use what's there. I wouldn't be too afraid of wireless obsolescence. I'd be more concerned about hardwire cabling obsolescence as we continue to progress towards HD programming, video-on-demand program delivery, gigabit ethernet, etc...
Then again, you could always just velcro on your crown molding and install whatever wires you want with dropdowns, replacing/upgrading as the need arises. Something to be said for the flexibility of cubicle-style wiring at least...
BTW, "phone connections"?!? Why worry about those? Even I've long since ditched our "land line" in favor of cellular! Why pay 2 phone bills?
How big is your house that you might need switches, hubs and amplifiers for the network? Wireless is still slower than wired, no matter how it's done. Still better than dialup, though.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
If there's anyone who is BICSI certified, let's hear your opinions.
The distribution panel should be near the electrical panel if possible. The NEC updates for 2005 covers grounding and bonding requirements and if you want, I'll quote from it. Do all of your home runs to the structured wiring panel and make sure there's an electrical box nearby for line amplifiers, routers, etc. It also makes proper grounding a lot easier. The cable/phone/sat is supposed to be grounded/bonded as close to the demarc point as possible. They also spec how close to high voltage and lightning suppression runs the low voltage cabling should be.
If you lay everything out efficiently, bundle is great. Everything in one box, two rooms with boxes back-to-back, etc. Any additional runs can be separate. If there will be good access to the walls where things will be run from above and/or below, running large dia smurf or other conduit makes life easy. One thing you want to do is run everything with a maximum of two right angle bends, no high stress bends, and keep everything as straight as possible in case extra runs are needed later.
I do low voltage for a living- don't undersize your conduits. 1" is fine for short runs but for long ones, it's a PITA, even with wire lube. Again, install a conduit to the area above the upper rooms, if at all possible and larger than you think you'd need. Then, add a few runs of Cat 5e (at least) and coax that reach the main structured panel and leave them unterminated on both ends, but long enough to reach where they may be needed.
Be safe and buy plenum rated cabling. That way, the inspectors won't bust you and make you rewire things. If you need a panel and distribution, Parts Express is a decent source.
If you decide to upgrade technologies later, you should still be OK since Cat 5e is good to about 100MB/sec and there are more HDTV over Cat5e convertors coming out.
Holy Crap! I just saw the price for the Belden bundle. There are others out there. Check out Genesis cable or Parts Express, as I mentioned before. Use Snap-N-Seal F connectors and get a punch-down tool for the phone/net distribution.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Edited 11/10/2006 4:25 pm by highfigh
"Be safe and buy plenum rated cabling. That way, the inspectors won't bust you and make you rewire things. "Where in a house do you usually have a plenum?
You just never know what the inspector will have up their butt, ya know? I have seen them, demand things that aren't required too many times, but it's never the same from one community to another. It drives me nuckin' futz!Also, condos and lofts do have plenuns in some cases. Depends on when/how they were built."I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Edited 11/10/2006 5:36 pm by highfigh
The attic is the plenum. I suggest the individual wire route instead of bundled cable assemblies.Use a sharpie to mark your wires before you run them. Use tie-wraps to bundle wires into trunks. "Comb" them out if you want to make it pretty. One really imprtant thing if you use tie wraps, don't cinch them too tight! It really hurts network performance. You can use double sided velcro instead, you can't really over tighten velcro.I would locate my pannel where you can put a shelf to put hubs, splitters or other future equipment. Have a duplex outlet near that shelf too.I don't think that a pannel that combines all communications is really nessisary either, It keeps you locked into one manufacturer, I would terminate in plastic work boxes instead. you can terminate six in a box (six gang faceplate). Just a small plywood backboard would do nicely.
"Plenum. A compartment or chamber to which one or more air ducts are connected and that forms part of the air distribution system."From the 2005 NEC.I have never seen an attic that forms part of the air ditribution system.Note is has be PART OF THE AIR DISTRIBUTION SYSTEM, not just contain ducts for the air distribution system.
I maily run cable in commercial buildings, and consider the plenum to be anything between the ceiling grid and the deck. I have never stopped to count or inspect ducts, I simply consider that space to be the plenum. There we ALWAYS run plenum cable. If the run all in pipe pvc is ok. My house has no conduit for any cable runs, everything is run open, so I consider my attic plenum, therefore in my home I ran plenum rated cable. I just feel better considering the attic to be a plenum for this purpose.JUST RUN PLENUM CABLE EVERYWHERE AND YOU WILL BE OK.
"consider the plenum to be anything between the ceiling grid and the deck."SOMETIMES it is a plenum, but ONLY if it is used for return air. Again the area about the ceiling is used for the actual return air, not just for duct work.The whole for plenum cable is that it is rated for the amount of smoke/fumes that it gives off if it burns. And if it is in a plenum the smoke will be distributed by the HVAC system.An attic ain't a plenum.
Edited 11/10/2006 7:20 pm by BillHartmann
OK OK an attic is not a plenum. run pvc. I ran plenum because if it does catch fire in the basement or anywhere else I felt better about having it be plenum cable. Hopefully I won't be in the attic or basement if it does. I get the cable free so I didnt worry about cost. If I had to buy I might consider buyng plenum anyway, call me stupid, ( my basement isnt really a plenum either.) running any cat5 will be tricky if pulling alone.......loops pulling through tight spaces messes with the twist of the individual pairs.....having another hand helps....just something that takes getting used to.
Technically, the plenum is considered the space between the ceiling grid and deck but it isn't always the path for the return air. When cabling is being installed and it is the return air path, plenum rated cabling MUST be used. It gets kind of contentious when the definitions can vary but for communications cabling, that space is considered to be the plenum and the vertical runs are called risers.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
JUST RUN PLENUM CABLE EVERYWHERE AND YOU WILL BE OK.
Unless, of course, you end up in the poor house...:)
Plenum-rated cables generally run twice the price of PVC jacketed cables. We use plenum cable where the code calls for it, or when the AHJ requires it. Otherwise, we run PVC.
Anything else is a waste of money, not to mention time, as the jacket on plenum cable tends to be considerably more fragile than that on pvc cable. Even a small kink in plenum cable leaves a permanent stretch mark on the jacket, while most of the time you can ease the kink out of PVC cable, leaving no permanent damage.
Bob
I get your point on cost. kinks and tight bends too....Do you pull solo? If you do it is tricky. I notice that if I pull multiple boxes and I set up the boxes with the logos all facing the same direction it really helps prevent kinks. If you don't line them up facing the same way the bundle doesn't sync up the same way.
Generally, I do pull solo.
Kinks and snags seem to vary with the brand of wire. Sometimes, no matter how I handle the box, I can't get through the first pull without the cable snagging inside. Other times, I can get through a whole box with no problems.
I have the most trouble with smaller cables - we pull a lot of 2-pair (both PVC and plenum). I usually have much better luck with the Cat5e, although I recently had a few boxes that I had to crack open shortly after starting them.
Bob
Amen on not cinching tie-wraps too tight. Also, it's better to space them randomly than at neat regular intervals. Steve Lampen of Belden does an amazing presentation on this at various tech conferences.
http://www.belden.com.au/upload/ReturnLoss2003WhitePaper.PDF
-- J.S.
I have structured cable in my home. It is a waste of time. Run what you want and where you want.
For a one-off job, it may be a waste of time but when someone does it all the time on really large homes, it really speeds things along. When the jobs are really large and involved like one bundle per wall plate, there are multiple plates in each room and there is a dedicated IT room in the house, wiring an 18K sq ft house does not work with individual cables. There's no way a company will make money with individual runs and there's also no way the customer will want to see the bill for labor. Also, placement of the IT room makes a big difference on a house like that since placing it at one end and trying to use a computer on the other end may be out of the useful range of Cat5e (100 meters). This would mean a repeater, amplifier or other device is needed just to extend the range, and more $ goes on the tab.If it's just a few runs here and there, single is fine.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."