STRUCTURED WIRE – your experiences?
STRUCTURED WIRE – your experiences?
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At some point in this remodel, we need to think about phones and TV and all that stuff. I am at the bottom of the learning curve for all that stuff – somewhere in the Duh Zone.
Had planned to put two RG6 coax and one Cat 5e per phone drop. Better check with Breaktime before I step in it. Owner wants phone drops at each of the four toilets (Dude – cell phone?). Other than that there are not many specs. Put a Levition structured wire cabinet in a central location.
What would you pull?
Who makes a good product?
This home has a 3:1 roof, no attic, very little soffit space so doing the smurf tube thing is out, as there is no there up there.
When this stuff gets DWed in, that’s it, so better think ahead while it’s in studs and try to get ahead of the curve.
The ToolBear
“Never met a man who couldn’t teach me something.” Anon.
Replies
That guy has his head in the past. Cordless has come a looooong way since the days of the princess phone... let the client know he can buy a phone from a company other than AT&T ;)
Seriously, you can get a 2.4 or 5.8 GHz system that can handle 4 to 10 handsets. Each wireless handset comes with it's own charging base that will mount to a vertical wall. They look good too. If you find you have deadspots in the house (doubtful, but you never know) then you just need another base station on the same line... just operating on a different channel. One or two drops is all that is needed.
Same with computers. Unless you use a file server for all your files, you don't need the firehose of a network cable... the soda straw of a wireless connection is plenty fast - and is usually much faster than the internet connection anyway! The new "N" systems have tremendous range and penetration, and don't get slowed down with multiple users on the same system.
As for RG6, I'd say run more conduit than actual cable. I'm not sure what the second line would be used for. If you have open walls, run three or four smurf tubes to the possible locations in each room for a TV, terminate the tubes in the attic or somewhere else accessable, then run what cable is actually needed.
Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
Parenting has always been a mix of sage life advice and inexcusable laziness.
As for RG6, I'd say run more conduit than actual cable. I'm not sure what the second line would be used for. If you have open walls, run three or four smurf tubes to the possible locations in each room for a TV, terminate the tubes in the attic or somewhere else accessable, then run what cable is actually needed.@@@CCTV system covering the gate, etc.@@@Bought smurf. Returned it. No attic to go to. The wiring is all up in the rafter space. Only dropped ceiling is by way of 3 of the 4 bathrooms in this 3 BR house. I am waiting for owner to return and want that raised.The ToolBear
"Never met a man who couldn't teach me something." Anon.
Toolbear,
I installed structured wire on my own home built 5 years ago. If I had to do it all over I wouldn't bother. Put the individual drops where you want them and forget about the bundle.
I installed structured wire on my own home built 5 years ago. If I had to do it all over I wouldn't bother. Put the individual drops where you want them and forget about the bundle. @@@I am thinking I can save a bunch of time pulling one cable with all the stuff in it vs. assembling a bundled cable or making multiple runs. No?Need to get phone and TV to a number but not all the drops. Phone to all. What is the best way you found?The ToolBear
"Never met a man who couldn't teach me something." Anon.
Some people just like phones that can't be left in inconvenient places, so the loo gets one or three of its own. I worked on one a couple of years ago and the guy had two within 6' of each other in the master bath and an office-sized phone system for the whole house. It was ridiculous and problematic later because of him putzing with it and he actually toasted the main unit. If the place has had the DW removed, I don't see why smurf tube is out- I would use that as much as possible in order to make it easy to run new types of cable in the future. If there will be a cable or satellite receiver in specific locations, run larger smurf tube, so the TV can get whatever cabling it needs, based on what will give the best picture and any possible upgrades later. HDMI has too many issues, IMO, and I would run at least three RG-6 or RG-59, so component video can be used and 5-6 of each if the audio needs to go to the TV. Cat 5e should go along in case control is needed or a balun system is used to convert to component, HDMI or whatever. When I run cabling, I try to make it easy for myself in the future since I like to plan for customers calling to have me do future work.I would have the customer commit to what they need now and work out what they think could be needed later. A little spent now can save thousands later in labor charges.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
There is a place for those wireless connections, but in my experience a wired connection is more reliable. We had a Panasonic 2.4GHz, 4-line consumer phone system and it was a lot of trouble because of interference from computer networking gear and microwave ovens that operate in the same frequency band. Range to the handsets was limited to about 50 feet max, and unlike an analog connection that degrades gradually, with these digital handsets the signal just stops with no warning. We replaced it with a Panasonic KX-TA624 system that handles three incoming lines and up to eight wired extensions. It can be expanded to 6x16, but most people probably wouldn't need that in a house. The main unit has all of the bells and whistles you expect on an office phone system, intercom, conferencing, door phones, etc. and two of the extensions can be a 900 MHz wireless handset. The 900 MHz portable has access to all of the features and much better range than the 2.4 GHz handsets. I've used it as far as 300 feet from the base and it worked well.We had our Quest phone lines disconnected last month and now receive everything, TV, web access, and telephone service over the cable connection. The installer who put in the phone line modems told me their network uses fiber optic lines at the street level, and the signal is converted to coax at each drop. If they ever run fiber to the houses (for movie downloads, video phones, etc.), the bandwidth would increase by 100X to 1000X. That's why I wouldn't run any coax lines outside of conduit because in a few years they will probably be obsolete.
OK, so good RG-6 is sweep tested to 3GB. Why is coax so bad? The hardware being used now isn't up to the limit of the cable as it is. The length has a lot to do with the upper limit, too. If it's a short run, there's nothing wrong with coax or Cat 5e, since that isn't usually pushed to its limit, either. 100MHz is less than 1/3 of the 350 MHz at 185' that Cat 5e is spec'd for. The only reason fiber isn't here now is that there hasn't been any urgency on the part of the ones doing the infrastructure but with the high copper (and other metals) prices, I can almost guarantee that fiber will be the preferred conductor. The ends are getting cheaper and for short runs, fusing isn't necessary. Personally, I don't really like wireless anything since it's not that hard to find a scanner that will work in the frequency range of phones and war-driving for internet connectivity with a laptop is easy enough, too. I have a 900 MHZ phone that worked two blocks from my house but I don't carry it outside.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
You are not going to be able to scan a modern digital phone, unless you like listening to encoded digital noise. As for wardriving, again encrypting the signal is pretty much SOP. I prefer to leave my signal open and firewall everything... i have yet to see a swarm of cars parked out front with laptops sucking up my bandwidth.Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
Parenting has always been a mix of sage life advice and inexcusable laziness.
Just because you didn't see them, doesn't mean that they aren't there. Those bastiges are sneaky. Can't scan a digital phone unless you have the right equipment. I don't and I'm not interested in doing that but you know that somewhere, someone is doing it.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
OK, so good RG-6 is sweep tested to 3GB. Why is coax so bad? The hardware being used now isn't up to the limit of the cable as it is. The length has a lot to do with the upper limit, too. If it's a short run, there's nothing wrong with coax or Cat 5e, since that isn't usually pushed to its limit, either. 100MHz is less than 1/3 of the 350 MHz at 185' that Cat 5e is spec'd for.
What brand and type sweep gear do you use? What program do you use to read the results?
I don't do it myself, I use solid copper center conductor Commscope cable for RG-6 and they sweep test it. It's printed on the box, so if it doesn't live up to the test results, it goes back. Typically, copper plated steel does 2 GHz. I do know someone who can do TEF analysis, though and he has done speaker and audio cable testing but I don't know the upper frequency limits of his equipment. I don't like the plated steel because of the lower limit, stiffness and it beats the crap out of my cable cutters."I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Edited 5/26/2007 9:40 pm by highfigh
"OK, so good RG-6 is sweep tested to 3GB. Why is coax so bad?"Coax isn't bad, it just has much lower bandwidth than fiber. When they start streaming HD video, or decide to allow true "high speed" web access like you find in other countries, the limitations of coax will be the bottleneck. Remember when Bill Gates wondered why anyone could possibly need more than 640K of memory in a personal computer? Whatever we perceive as adequate today will probably seem ridiculously limited in ten years.
"Coax isn't bad, it just has much lower bandwidth than fiber."Show me a situation where the hardware is exceeding the limits of the coax, in the home. Cable and phone service is FTTC in more places that most people are aware. That means the length of coax runs aren't all that great unless it's a long way from the curb to the house and if someone has that much land, they can probably afford to have fiber run to the house. Streaming HD video- what does AT&T's U-Verse use? We could all have fiber to the house but we don't want to spring for the hardware. The head of IBM wondered why anyone would want a personal computer, in about '59. I don't know how anyone could have envisioned the way operating systems would turn into such memory hogs.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
If the place has had the DW removed, I don't see why smurf tube is out-@@@ Where to run it to? No attic. Only soffit space is over the bathrooms and that could vanish in a quest for "openess".The ToolBear
"Never met a man who couldn't teach me something." Anon.
I don't know where the house is or its layout but there's usually some place to run from and to. The ceiling wouldn't be tied directly to the rafters, would it? That sounds like drywall crack city if there's any kind of live loads acting on the roof. If they can sacrifice a few inches of ceiling height in that room, running the tubing should be easy. Just make sure it's up to code.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
The ceiling wouldn't be tied directly to the rafters, would it? That sounds like drywall crack city if there's any kind of live loads acting on the roof.@@@Bingo!Live loads - you don't want to see the previous owner(s) interesting addtion and repairs. We call it Hack House.We did cut all the gas pipe off the roof, etc. The addition die-in to the 3:1 is half California Valley and half FUBAR and springy - like a trampoline. Couldn't be that 2x6 cut 3/4 across - recycled form lumber - Go Green! Couldn't be that header, pieced together out of whatever. It now has a pair of 2x12s for company.The ToolBear
"Never met a man who couldn't teach me something." Anon.
I just saw this on the bestbuy website. This would allow him to view his gate from any wireless handset in the house. Just a thought.
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Wall-mountable designRebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
Parenting has always been a mix of sage life advice and inexcusable laziness.
I just saw this on the bestbuy website. This would allow him to view his gate from any wireless handset in the house. Just a thought.@@@Now, don't go encouraging him <g>. He is already wanting to move the plumbing around - after it was approved, laid in, cemented over, etc.We should do this project in garden hose, RV dump hose and extension cords to keep up with the incessant changes. But, hey, time & materials.The ToolBear
"Never met a man who couldn't teach me something." Anon.
"We should do this project in garden hose, RV dump hose and extension cords to keep up with the incessant changes."Too bad wireless power transmission isn't efficient, eh?
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
You might save "some" time but you will be buying a bunch of extension wires and cables when it's done. When it first came on the market a dvd player was about 400.00 and we thought we would need to buy one and transfer the audio or video through the house, well that changed. I dont use a hard wired phone anymore except a office line forwarded to my cell. I think the wall mounted tv may be here to stay for some years so running the wires to the wall should last a few years for location performance. If you want future pulls , run a conduit.
Edited 5/26/2007 8:48 pm ET by shellbuilder
There's nothing weird or wrong about a telephone in the bathroom. A hard wired phone is the most reliable, clearest signal you can get. If cell phones were invented first everyone would be clamoring for hard wired phones now for their better quality and reliability.
All the portable phones I've used (cell or portable with base stations) have worse quality sound than hard wired phones. And I don't want to walk around the house carrying a phone everywhere I go in case I have to go to the bathroom and the phone rings. Hard wired phones can't go missing, either. And neighbors can't listen in on hard wired phones (though they can't on most cell phones, either).
The other advantage of hard wired phones over cell phones is that the buttons are large enough to read without glasses. I don't wear glasses to the shower.
another thing about hard wired phones is that when you lose power you lose portable phone service. That doesn't happen with hard wired phones. Having both gives you backup.
You do lose service if you're using VoIP.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
[b]"You do lose service if you're using VoIP."[/b]The VoIP modems in our digital phone setup have battery backup built in. They will provide phone service for at least 24 hours if power is lost. Granted, that is not the same as using a PC to do VoIP, but adding a UPS could achieve the same result.
Edited 5/27/2007 12:50 pm ET by TJK
Yeah, but do all the cable amps between you and the head end have battery backup?
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
It depends somewhat on what the owner wants in the way of TV/Video, and what their source is. If they're on cable, a single RG6 can give them all that they need, but if they're on satellite, a dual-tuner receiver takes two separate RG6 runs.
I'd consider pulling multiple Cat5e rather than a single one. That would give you one for wired network and one for phone.
I love my wireless network, but it can easily run out of bandwidth if you start running a lot of video on it, especially if it's HD video.
I'd consider pulling multiple Cat5e rather than a single one. That would give you one for wired network and one for phone.@@@Like that idea. Did I see some structured wires that had two 5e? Check the printouts.The ToolBear
"Never met a man who couldn't teach me something." Anon.
Another case for additional Cat 5e (Cat 6 and 7, too) is that there are more balun systems available all the time, which can carry HD video, digital audio and anything below that level of signal quality over fairly long distances. Put an RJ-45 on each end, plug it into the balun on each end and connect to the source and display ends. Some are amplified, some aren't and some have active circuitry, depending on the purpose. They work great when there's no way to run additional cabling and UTP is already there.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Just buy two spools of Cat 5 (two different colors if you have the option). I'll guarantee it'll be cheaper than the "structured" stuff, and just as easy to pull.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
For my rentals? Less and less. Most of my renters just use a cell phone and the cable co. doesnt mind coming in and destroying anything in their way to install their line.
The first house I did, I put phone lines in every room (none are currently being used). So this last house I only ran ine to the kitchen and one upstairs (upstairs cause thats never easier then when walls are open).
For a client? I assess their needs (and possibly future needs) and go from there.