sub floor glue
Recently the construction company I work for has stopped using glue on the subfloor. We had some problems in the past with popping floors and have built two homes without the glue, so far so good. We now nail and screw the floor. Just wanted to know if anyone else has had the same problem, or if anyone doesn’t use glue on there sub floor and had success with it?
Edited 3/11/2003 6:54:26 PM ET by warren
What kind of glue did you formerly use? What kind of subfloor material? Any gap/expansion allowance between sheets? I've always been fond of that yellow aliphatic resin glue, it's stronger than the lignin that holds the wood fibers to each other. The glue joint is stronger than the wood itself.
We have been using PL400 sub floor glue, OSB 3/4 t&g sub floor, 2x10 fir floor joist. The floor popping and squeaking seemed to be coming from were the glue meet the subfloor, almost as if the glue had become hard and brittle. There also semmed to be to big of a void between the floor and the joist. We have changed to TGI joist and we nail and screw as we go. The first house that we tried this on is about 1 yr. old and the floor is very quit. Let me know what you think.
It sounds like the glue had enough time to harden quite a bit before the subfloor was nailed down. The other consideration with OSB is that it expands and contracts with moisture and temperature, so you want to give it some room to move. If it's put in tight together, the expansion will bow the weakest parts up away from the joists. Given partly hardened glue, the expansion will break the weak glue bond resulting in the kind of gaps you saw.
There was another post regarding whether there could be too much glue. Yes, there can be too much glue. If you see big sloppy globs of it all over places where it shouldn't be, that's too much. The right amount is just a teensy bit less than that. ;-)
In my opinion it is a bad idea. Glue is what stops your floor from squeaking. I think you are looking at problems down the road. What is a popping floor anyway? Do you mean squeaks?
I, too, wonder whar kind of adhesive they we using. The stuff doesn't stick to mud or sheetrock dust. Biggest problem I've seen is when, the joists are glued and the subbfloor is screwed on the perimeter at that time, then the field is screwed off later, like in a couple of days after the adhesive is hard later. Personally, I'd never do a subfloor, or underlayment, without it
I'm snorting along with billy! Whatever problem it was, the glue sure didn't cause it and eleiminating the glue will only make things worse.
Adding the screws was a good thing but canning the glue was not..
Excellence is its own reward!
You boys might want to rethink not using glue.
Can't go wrong with plenty of good quality glue and ring shank nails.
Screwing is fine but in my opinion not worth the time as opposed to ring shank gun nails.
I was told by a repesenitive from a glue company that to much glue was bad and ring shank nail tore the wood to much and sould not be used. What to do?
Let me get this straight , a rep. from a glue manufacturer said too much glue is bad?!!!
The only possible way for their to be too much glue is if you are using glue that is frozen and won't let the subfloor get close to the joist.
If that is the case then you should warm the glue up.
I have never heard that you can put too much glue on a joist! That IMHO is ridiculous!
As far as ring-shank nails tearing up the subfloor too much ....The only scenario that comes to mind would be that the pressure is set too high and the nail gets driven 3/4 thru the subfloor.
This would result in losing a little shear strength .
Solution? Adjust the pressure. I for one would rather have the fastener set just below the surface of the subfloor as opposed to just above as happens all too often when screwing the floor down
Edited 3/12/2003 7:32:57 PM ET by benny
glue and nail each sheet as you go. as long as the sheathing goes with the framing members as they both dry- no squeaks. that's floors walls whatever.
I have used I-joists for something like fifteen years now. I have never had to fix a floor I built with engineered lumber. Not one.
I use a thin bead of polyurethane on clean joists and course screws.
Nerver had a problem
"As long as you have certain desires about how it ought to be you can't see how it is."
Most subfloor noises I've seen can be traced to nailing joists to the top of walls that run below the joists,not the subfloor itself.I've also seen a lot of guys who wanted to glue and tack the subfloor then go back and nail it off.Gotta nail it as you go.It also helps to have a man run over the floor with a hammer to make sure all (gun) nails are driven tight.
One more vote for glue. And screws are better than nails.
I don't agree that walls are the prime culprit for noises in floors. I've never seen a house where I thought that was the case.
Just got called out this week on a floor thatw as noisy, and they thought something was wrong with the floor trusses. Nailed floor, and no glue. Nothing wrong with the trusses. But the kitchen made a ton of noise as you walked across it.
In some cultures, what I do would be considered normal.
Boss , Just from my own experience, The #1 cause for squeaks has been when trusses are used and the carpenter does not use the slotted clips to prevent truss uplift lifting up the interior walls.
Without fail the 1st heating season you start to get creaks and groans as the walls lift up.
The posters who have mentioned glue the plates as you tip the interior walls up are correct that it will stop some of the squeaks because the sole plate will remain in contact with the plywood subfloor and not allow the nails that are used to fasten the wall down to the floor rub against the edge of the plywood.
It seems that when the wall goes up and down and the nails just move against the parallel wood fibers of the wood stud you do not get the violin effect as you do with the subfloor grain running perpendicular to the nails.
Bottom line ...I glue my plates on a truss house and I use the slotted clips. Much happier and much quieter.
If you're quiet, happy, and you're using trusses, I guess I shouldn't complain, huh ???Beer please Woody.Isn't it a little early Mr Peterson?OK. Float a cornflake in it
Just fixed a squeaky sub-floor, didn't squeak right away but after a long time it started (did I mention I was slow), so the floor had plenty of time to settle in. The floor was glued but the joints were not glued because the guys didn't like the mess it made. Well a year later the only squeaks I had were at the joints, where there was little or no glue. 5 lbs of screws later and no more squeaks so far.
One day I would like to build a 1" sub-floor on TGI's, glued and screwed, just because I can :)
I agree with everyone here. You should be gluing. You might consider gluing your bottom plates to the subfloor. We've been doing that lately and so far so good. We glue and nail when we lay the subfloor, then I go back and screw the floor down right before finished surfaces and the house is dried out. Here in the northwest, our floors get a lot of water before the roof is on.
On the suggestion of someone over at JLC we tried Enerbond SF. I'll post a link. Its a foam that is a polyurethane adhesive. It is faster to lay down and one can replaces like 15 or 20 quarts of glue.
This second link is where we've been buying. Seems reasonable and laying sufloor goes really fast.
Thanks for the links! Gluing the bottom plates sounds like a great idea!
Thanks Again, Warren
Glad I could be of some help. We try to do everything humanly possible to get rid of them.
We had one guy move into a house we built and about a year later he was finding squeaks next to his bedroom wall. I walked on it, my boss did, another carpenter did. Couldn't find the squeak. This guy weighed like 280 and he could find the squeak. We told him there was nothing we could do. He would either have to lose weight or get earplugs. He was a good guy and laughed.
Squeaks often occur where TJI is hung on a girder. THe hangers flex and the end of the joists rub the girder causing squeaks. To remedy, add a dab of PL to the crotch of the hanger and use web stiffiners. Be sure to nail the hangers as specced. Screws into the subfloor are a waste of time. Thaw the joists and plywood if there is ice and nail off as soon as the sheet is down. If you wait for the kid to nail off when all the sheets are down then I guarantee you will have squeaks. Check for shiners because they cause squeaks too when they only partially penetrate the joist. No glue? That is a huge no no. If you haven't had a call back from not using glue it is only a matter of time or the homeowner is deaf.
Hey you never know maybe warrens on to something!!!! It could be just like everything else in this world ( we do it because the guy selling it says if you don't you will be sorry) I think we have all had squeaks in floors that were glued!
Keep us posted warren