Been installing doors at HD for contractor A. I am a licensed sub for A
1 year ago I was doing same for contractor B. Let us go with no warning and no reason.
B called me today wanting me to install more doors for him. A and B are in direct competion at 2 store in the area. I would be workin for B where he is the only contractor.
Should I let A know that I am subbing from B, if I decide to? I have only been making maybe $250 a week from A, and thats about 2 days a week. The other guy burnt me once and I would like to keep A’s work regardless.
What say ye breaktimers?
Replies
since you are a subcontractor--aren't you entitled to work wherever?-A,B,C---Z.
as a practical matter-ya don't want A dropping you--sure i can see that
however------- B-already burned ya---and yet you are thinking of going back???-hmmmmm-- think THAT one through! LOL.
Stephen
I agree with Stephen. When I'm a sub, I'm working for a contractor...they're all competitors...where it get's sticky is when you're working for A and B wants you in yesterday<G>Get in line, or keep me on retainer...LOL
Whoever it is I wish they'd cut it out but when they will I can only guess.
They say I shot a man named Gray and took his wife to Italy,
She inherited a million bucks and when she died it came to me.
I can't help it if I'm lucky.
I would not work for either one of them as a "licensed sub" if all I was making was $250.00 for two days work.
Those are not sub-contractor prices, those are employee wages at best. If you are truly a "sub" with license, insurance, your own tools, your own transportation, and pay your own taxes then you are probably clearing less than $10.00 an hr. to assume all the risk and liability of a small business owner. That is a race to the bottom.
I don't mean to sound like a prima-donna but you can't run a business grossing $125.00 a day even in the south (where I live )
I tell you this because I learned alot of this the hard way.Hopefully you won't have to.
dug
That 250 was just an average i've been getting per week. Its a piecework deal. The hourly runs around 30, which is on the high end here. Pensacola, FL.
Ask A if he'd be comfortable with it; no point in accidentally burning a bridge.
Phill Giles
The Unionville Woodwright
You're running a business that is only grossing $12,500 a year?!?!?
wow.
SamT
no, that is just one guy. I anticipate about 40k per year from A on down the road. 40k per year per store is his estimate of how much business i can do with HD. Just slow here now. I also have other work. but door installation is easy, easy easy.
I'm not meaning to insult you, it's just I've got a wierd way of looking at things.$40K @ $30/hr = 1333 hrs/yearSince a sub is lucky to bill 1600-1800hrs in a year, your company is allocating 2/3 of it's services to a $30/hr account.There is nothing A or B can do for you because they're contracted to HD, which only uses commodity contractors.If you can bill a more reasonable $60/hr for 700 of those left overs, that would more than double your companys'grossSamT
keep looking for customers who want to hire YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead high...." Mike Smith
Edited 7/29/2007 4:21 pm by SamT
I have to look at this a little different right now. B had me working more stores and I was making about 45 per. Even the 30 after the expenses is about 3-5 more than I can get in this area. 12-15 is the norm here with tools.
I wouldn't get insulted, expect a true opinion even if I don't like it or agree, or wouldn't post it.
12-15 is the norm here with tools.So, you're paying yourself like $18/hr? $4.50/hr to Uncle Sam?Tools, truck, phone, computor, everything in OH? Are you leaving that 3-5 in the company as profit?OR are you paying the company bills and pocketing the rest?SamT
Edited 7/29/2007 6:08 pm by SamT
That's why both A and B are fronting for you. You're leaving money on the table and they're simply picking it up.
Wazza matter with you leaving them both out and going direct to the source?
Agreed. A sub of a sub to home depot? Someone needs to get cut out of that deal. If you cannot provide the insurance or whatever they need then maybe I understand, but those stores will hire you as an installer without any middleman taking money from you. You need to step on both of those guys, take the business from them both, forget about how they feel about it.
i'd like to leave them out but you must be a certified resedential builder or above. Entry doors must be permitted here as part of the windload.
I can't qualify for these licenses.
What's it gonna take for you to get certified as a residential builder?SamT
I am not eligible because of some felony convictions. Even though they weren't related to construction, they were for mail fraud.
Anybody else, pass the test, have appropriate insurance cert., minimum amount of cash, credit with suppliers maybe others. I lost interest when I found out I wasn't eligible.
Not much for you there, is there?Work for someone else.Be a sub under someone elses' license.Move.What are the restrictions on uncertified contractors?SamT
I'd like to move but have 2 kids in college so not right yet. Work for someone else not gonna work for me.
Made good money doing trim until Ivan destroyed the project and uncollectibles bankrupted me. Since then I have scrambled doing whatever I could find just to get by.
I've lived here 13 years and people I know that were never out of work are out now. Building in this part of FL is off over 50%, so I ain't turning nothing down.
I see.Hang in, bro, till them kids get out of college. Whenever that ain't got you locked down, there'll be a way for you. SamT
Question, does HD have a contractor's license? I will bet that Florida law requires it. First read your state mechanics' and materialmen's lien laws. Lien laws are similar from state to state. Arizona lien laws, where I live, state that labor (carpenters, painters, plumbers, etc.) can only come onto a construction project in one of two ways: First, at the direct request of the property owner who contracts directly with such mechanics; Or, second, at the request of the property owner's agent. The lien laws specifically state that all contractors and subcontractors are agents of the property owner. Arizona's contractor licensing laws state that no contractor or subcontractor shall act as an agent without a license. All federal and statutory laws define building contractors and subcontractors as agents of the property owner. This is understood. Since HD and not the property owner is arranging for labor, then they by definition are an agent of the property owner. That makes them a contractor and subject to licensing. You say however that HD hires a sub who then hires a sub who arranges for labor. Arizona law, (Florida is probably similar) requires the party who performs the labor, not the contractor or subcontractor, to bill for labor. Remember that labor is furnished at the instance of the property owner or his agent contractor or agent subcontractor. Arizona law, as well as the rules of the Arizona Registrar of Contractors, prohibits any contractor or subcontractor from keeping any funds which the property owner pays for labor or materials. Arizona law, like Florida law, does not require licensing of mechanics who perform labor. Carpenters, painters, bricklayers, and other mechanics are not required to be licensed. Arizona, like Florida, makes a distinction between labor and management. Arizona law, like Florida law, defines a contractor (and subcontractors) to be management. The law states that the supervisor (manager) is subject to a license examination. Labor is not subject to license examinations in Arizona. Some states require licenses of certain mechanics (plumbers, electricians). Carpenters, painters, bricklayers, and a host of other mechanics (also known in the law as journeymen) are constitutionally protected from regulatory licensing. See Dasch v. Jackson, 170 Md. 251, 183 A. 534. Bottom line, you need not be licensed to install doors or do any carpentry work in Florida. Your right to make contracts in your occupation is constitutionally protected.
He's baa aack.SamT
Is your return key working? - lol
florida law is nothing like arizona.
bush already suspended the constitution.
Don't worry too much about that. 5150 law is different from most states law, even Arizona I will bet.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Was I late to the party? What is "5150 law"?
Naive but refreshing !
WELFARE AND INSTITUTIONS CODE SECTION 5150-5157
5150. When any person, as a result of mental disorder, is a danger
to others, or to himself or herself, or gravely disabled, a peace
officer, member of the attending staff, as defined by regulation, of
an evaluation facility designated by the county, designated members
of a mobile crisis team provided by Section 5651.7, or other
professional person designated by the county may, upon probable
cause, take, or cause to be taken, the person into custody and place
him or her in a facility designated by the county and approved by the
State Department of Mental Health as a facility for 72-hour
treatment and evaluation.
Such facility shall require an application in writing stating the
circumstances under which the person's condition was called to the
attention of the officer, member of the attending staff, or
professional person, and stating that the officer, member of the
attending staff, or professional person has probable cause to believe
that the person is, as a result of mental disorder, a danger to
others, or to himself or herself, or gravely disabled. If the
probable cause is based on the statement of a person other than the
officer, member of the attending staff, or professional person, such
person shall be liable in a civil action for intentionally giving a
statement which he or she knows to be false.
5150.05. (a) When determining if probable cause exists to take a
person into custody, or cause a person to be taken into custody,
pursuant to Section 5150, any person who is authorized to take that
person, or cause that person to be taken, into custody pursuant to
that section shall consider available relevant information about the
historical course of the person's mental disorder if the authorized
person determines that the information has a reasonable bearing on
the determination as to whether the person is a danger to others, or
to himself or herself, or is gravely disabled as a result of the
mental disorder.
(b) For purposes of this section, "information about the
historical course of the person's mental disorder" includes evidence
presented by the person who has provided or is providing mental
health or related support services to the person subject to a
determination described in subdivision (a), evidence presented by one
or more members of the family of that person, and evidence presented
by the person subject to a determination described in subdivision
(a) or anyone designated by that person.
(c) If the probable cause in subdivision (a) is based on the
statement of a person other than the one authorized to take the
person into custody pursuant to Section 5150, a member of the
attending staff, or a professional person, the person making the
statement shall be liable in a civil action for intentionally giving
any statement that he or she knows to be false.
(d) This section shall not be applied to limit the application of
Section 5328.
5150.1. No peace officer seeking to transport, or having
transported, a person to a designated facility for assessment under
Section 5150, shall be instructed by mental health personnel to take
the person to, or keep the person at, a jail solely because of the
unavailability of an acute bed, nor shall the peace officer be
forbidden to transport the person directly to the designated
facility. No mental health employee from any county, state, city, or
any private agency providing Short-Doyle psychiatric emergency
services shall interfere with a peace officer performing duties under
Section 5150 by preventing the peace officer from entering a
designated facility with the person to be assessed, nor shall any
employee of such an agency require the peace officer to remove the
person without assessment as a condition of allowing the peace
officer to depart.
"Peace officer" for the purposes of this section also means a
jailer seeking to transport or transporting a person in custody to a
designated facility for assessment consistent with Section 4011.6 or
4011.8 of the Penal Code and Section 5150.
5150.2. In each county whenever a peace officer has transported a
person to a designated facility for assessment under Section 5150,
that officer shall be detained no longer than the time necessary to
complete documentation of the factual basis of the detention under
Section 5150 and a safe and orderly transfer of physical custody of
the person. The documentation shall include detailed information
regarding the factual circumstances and observations constituting
probable cause for the peace officer to believe that the individual
required psychiatric evaluation under the standards of Section 5105.
Each county shall establish disposition procedures and guidelines
with local law enforcement agencies as necessary to relate to persons
not admitted for evaluation and treatment and who decline
alternative mental health services and to relate to the safe and
orderly transfer of physical custody of persons under Section 5150,
including those who have a criminal detention pending.
5150.3. Whenever any person presented for evaluation at a facility
designated under Section 5150 is found to be in need of mental health
services, but is not admitted to the facility, all available
alternative services provided for pursuant to Section 5151 shall be
offered as determined by the county mental health director.
5150.4. "Assessment" for the purposes of this article, means the
determination of whether a person shall be evaluated and treated
pursuant to Section 5150.
5151. If the facility for 72-hour treatment and evaluation admits
the person, it may detain him or her for evaluation and treatment for
a period not to exceed 72 hours. Saturdays, Sundays, and holidays
may be excluded from the 72-hour period if the Department of Mental
Health certifies for each facility that evaluation and treatment
services cannot reasonably be made available on those days. The
certification by the department is subject to renewal every two
years. The department shall adopt regulations defining criteria for
determining whether a facility can reasonably be expected to make
evaluation and treatment services available on Saturdays, Sundays,
and holidays.
Prior to admitting a person to the facility for 72-hour treatment
and evaluation pursuant to Section 5150, the professional person in
charge of the facility or his or her designee shall assess the
individual in person to determine the appropriateness of the
involuntary detention.
If in the judgment of the professional person in charge of the
facility providing evaluation and treatment, or his or her designee,
the person can be properly served without being detained, he or she
shall be provided evaluation, crisis intervention, or other inpatient
or outpatient services on a voluntary basis.
Nothing in this section shall be interpreted to prevent a peace
officer from delivering individuals to a designated facility for
assessment under Section 5150. Furthermore, the preadmission
assessment requirement of this section shall not be interpreted to
require peace officers to perform any additional duties other than
those specified in Sections 5150.1 and 5150.2.
5152. (a) Each person admitted to a facility for 72-hour treatment
and evaluation under the provisions of this article shall receive an
evaluation as soon as possible after he or she is admitted and shall
receive whatever treatment and care his or her condition requires for
the full period that he or she is held. The person shall be
released before 72 hours have elapsed only if the psychiatrist
directly responsible for the person's treatment believes, as a result
of the psychiatrist's personal observations, that the person no
longer requires evaluation or treatment. However, in those
situations in which both a psychiatrist and psychologist have
personally evaluated or examined a person who is placed under a
72-hour hold and there is a collaborative treatment relationship
between the psychiatrist and psychologist, either the psychiatrist or
psychologist may authorize the release of the person from the hold,
but only after they have consulted with one another. In the event of
a clinical or professional disagreement regarding the early release
of a person who has been placed under a 72-hour hold, the hold shall
be maintained unless the facility's medical director overrules the
decision of the psychiatrist or psychologist opposing the release.
Both the psychiatrist and psychologist shall enter their findings,
concerns, or objections into the person's medical record. If any
other professional person who is authorized to release the person
believes the person should be released before 72 hours have elapsed,
and the psychiatrist directly responsible for the person's treatment
objects, the matter shall be referred to the medical director of the
facility for the final decision. However, if the medical director is
not a psychiatrist, he or she shall appoint a designee who is a
psychiatrist. If the matter is referred, the person shall be
released before 72 hours have elapsed only if the psychiatrist making
the final decision believes, as a result of the psychiatrist's
personal observations, that the person no longer requires evaluation
or treatment.
(b) Any person who has been detained for evaluation and treatment
shall be released, referred for further care and treatment on a
voluntary basis, or certified for intensive treatment, or a
conservator or temporary conservator shall be appointed pursuant to
this part as required.
(c) A person designated by the mental health facility shall give
to any person who has been detained at that facility for evaluation
and treatment and who is receiving medication as a result of his or
her mental illness, as soon as possible after detention, written and
oral information about the probable effects and possible side effects
of the medication. The State Department of Mental Health shall
develop and promulgate written materials on the effects of
medications, for use by county mental health programs as disseminated
or as modified by the county mental health program, addressing the
probable effects and the possible side effects of the medication.
The following information shall be given orally to the patient:
(1) The nature of the mental illness, or behavior, that is the
reason the medication is being given or recommended.
(2) The likelihood of improving or not improving without the
medication.
(3) Reasonable alternative treatments available.
(4) The name and type, frequency, amount, and method of dispensing
the medication, and the probable length of time the medication will
be taken.
The fact that the information has or has not been given shall be
indicated in the patient's chart. If the information has not been
given, the designated person shall document in the patient's chart
the justification for not providing the information. A failure to
give information about the probable effects and possible side effects
of the medication shall not constitute new grounds for release.
(d) The amendments to this section made by Assembly Bill 348 of
the 2003-04 Regular Session shall not be construed to revise or
expand the scope of practice of psychologists, as defined in Chapter
6.6 (commencing with Section 2900) of Division 2 of the Business and
Professions Code.
5152.1. The professional person in charge of the facility providing
72-hour evaluation and treatment, or his or her designee, shall
notify the county mental health director or the director's designee
and the peace officer who makes the written application pursuant to
Section 5150 or a person who is designated by the law enforcement
agency that employs the peace officer, when the person has been
released after 72-hour detention, when the person is not detained, or
when the person is released before the full period of allowable
72-hour detention if all of the following conditions apply:
(a) The peace officer requests such notification at the time he or
she makes the application and the peace officer certifies at that
time in writing that the person has been referred to the facility
under circumstances which, based upon an allegation of facts
regarding actions witnessed by the officer or another person, would
support the filing of a criminal complaint.
(b) The notice is limited to the person's name, address, date of
admission for 72-hour evaluation and treatment, and date of release.
If a police officer, law enforcement agency, or designee of the
law enforcement agency, possesses any record of information obtained
pursuant to the notification requirements of this section, the
officer, agency, or designee shall destroy that record two years
after receipt of notification.
5152.2. Each law enforcement agency within a county shall arrange
with the county mental health director a method for giving prompt
notification to peace officers pursuant to Section 5152.1.
5153. Whenever possible, officers charged with apprehension of
persons pursuant to this article shall dress in plain clothes and
travel in unmarked vehicles.
5154. (a) Notwithstanding Section 5113, if the provisions of
Section 5152 have been met, the professional person in charge of the
facility providing 72-hour treatment and evaluation, his or her
designee, the medical director of the facility or his or her designee
described in Section 5152, the psychiatrist directly responsible for
the person's treatment, or the psychologist shall not be held
civilly or criminally liable for any action by a person released
before the end of 72 hours pursuant to this article.
(b) The professional person in charge of the facility providing
72-hour treatment and evaluation, his or her designee, the medical
director of the facility or his or her designee described in Section
5152, the psychiatrist directly responsible for the person's
treatment, or the psychologist shall not be held civilly or
criminally liable for any action by a person released at the end of
the 72 hours pursuant to this article.
(c) The peace officer responsible for the detainment of the person
shall not be civilly or criminally liable for any action by a person
released at or before the end of the 72 hours pursuant to this
article.
(d) The amendments to this section made by Assembly Bill 348 of
the 2003-04 Regular Session shall not be construed to revise or
expand the scope of practice of psychologists, as defined in Chapter
6.6 (commencing with Section 2900) of Division 2 of the Business and
Professions Code.
5155. Nothing in this part shall be construed as granting authority
to local entities to issue licenses supplementary to existing state
and local licensing laws.
5156. At the time a person is taken into custody for evaluation, or
within a reasonable time thereafter, unless a responsible relative
or the guardian or conservator of the person is in possession of the
person's personal property, the person taking him into custody shall
take reasonable precautions to preserve and safeguard the personal
property in the possession of or on the premises occupied by the
person. The person taking him into custody shall then furnish to the
court a report generally describing the person's property so
preserved and safeguarded and its disposition, in substantially the
form set forth in Section 5211; except that if a responsible relative
or the guardian or conservator of the person is in possession of the
person's property, the report shall include only the name of the
relative or guardian or conservator and the location of the property,
whereupon responsibility of the person taking him into custody for
such property shall terminate.
As used in this section, "responsible relative" includes the
spouse, parent, adult child, or adult brother or sister of the
person, except that it does not include the person who applied for
the petition under this article.
5157. (a) Each person, at the time he or she is first taken into
custody under provisions of Section 5150, shall be provided, by the
person who takes such other person into custody, the following
information orally. The information shall be in substantially the
following form:
My name is ____________________________________________.
I am a ________________________________________________.
(peace officer, mental health professional)
with __________________________________________________.
(name of agency)
You are not under criminal arrest, but I am taking you
for examination by mental health professionals at _____
_______________________________________________________.
(name of facility)
You will be told your rights by the mental health staff.
If taken into custody at his or her residence, the
person shall also be told the following information in
substantially the following form:
You may bring a few personal items with you which I
will have to approve. You can make a phone call and/or
leave a note to tell your friends and/or family where
you have been taken.
(b) The designated facility shall keep, for each patient
evaluated, a record of the advisement given pursuant to subdivision
(a) which shall include:
(1) Name of person detained for evaluation.
(2) Name and position of peace officer or mental health
professional taking person into custody.
(3) Date.
(4) Whether advisement was completed.
(5) If not given or completed, the mental health professional at
the facility shall either provide the information specified in
subdivision (a), or include a statement of good cause, as defined by
regulations of the State Department of Mental Health, which shall be
kept with the patient's medical record.
(c) Each person admitted to a designated facility for 72-hour
evaluation and treatment shall be given the following information by
admission staff at the evaluation unit. The information shall be
given orally and in writing and in a language or modality accessible
to the person. The written information shall be available in the
person's native language or the language which is the person's
principal means of communication. The information shall be in
substantially the following form:
My name is ____________________________________________________.
My position here is ___________________________________________.
You are being placed into the psychiatric unit because it is
our professional opinion that as a result of mental disorder,
you are likely to:
(check applicable)
harm yourself ____
harm someone else ____
be unable to take care of your own
food, clothing, and housing needs ____
We feel this is true because
________________________________________________________________
(herewith a listing of the facts upon which the
allegation of dangerous or gravely disabled due
to mental disorder is based, including pertinent
facts arising from the admission interview.)
You will be held on the ward for a period up to 72 hours.
This does not include weekends or holidays.
Your 72-hour period will begin ________________________________
(day and time.)
During these 72 hours you will be evaluated by the hospital
staff, and you may be given treatment, including medications.
It is possible for you to be released before the end of the 72
hours. But if the staff decides that you need continued treat-
ment you can be held for a longer period of time. If you are
held longer than 72 hours you have the right to a lawyer and a
qualified interpreter and a hearing before a judge. If you are
unable to pay for the lawyer, then one will be provided free.
(d) For each patient admitted for 72-hour evaluation and
treatment, the facility shall keep with the patient's medical record
a record of the advisement given pursuant to subdivision (c) which
shall include:
(1) Name of person performing advisement.
(2) Date.
(3) Whether advisement was completed.
(4) If not completed, a statement of good cause.
If the advisement was not completed at admission, the advisement
process shall be continued on the ward until completed. A record of
the matters prescribed by subdivisions (a), (b), and (c) shall be
kept with the patient's medical record.
[email protected]
As implied by other posts here, and seen in a review of other possts this guy has made in the past, he is given to strange interpretations and appications of law so his advice is to be considered in light of his overal context.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I see.
Naive but refreshing !
Heh! Google "5150"SamT
I believe that is called the "Baker Act" in FL Are they letting them have computers now? Most institutions don't allow it.
Edited 8/4/2007 9:45 pm ET by catfish
> Your right to make contracts in your occupation is constitutionally
> protected.It is? What clause or article protects this?George Patterson
14th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution
Catfish: Talk to your lawer. You may be able to get your convictions over turned.
"Talk to your lawer. You may be able to get your convictions over turned"In general that would not be easy to do and I have no idea when this occured, but if it was more than a couple of eyars ago he probably the time has run out.Now petitioning for an exspungment is much different propsition.But the bankruptcy might not help the process..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
The bankruptcy excludes me also from certified or registered licenses in FL. If the felonies didn't.
Don't know if they changed policy but it used to be the big boxes wouldn't allow anyone to work in a customers house with a felony conviction.
After that painter in Potomac had an employee kill a whole family and stack them in the basement like cord wood.... everyone got alittle uptight.
anything with violence excludes you.
Apply to HD (At Homes Sales) directly to install windows, the La installed sales office covers most of the gulf coast and HD always wants more installers. If you can't qualify to work in Florida tell them your looking for work in Al.
Windows/siding/roofing/gutters are a separate program from entry doors, the lead comes from the store but after the job is sold it moves to the at home sales division.
They get alot of bad press but really its a pretty good program. Easy to work with, fair pay structure, very easy to meet insurance requirements.
They do make mistakes, but will pay you over and over to fix them untill they get it right. Guess it depends on the branch your at, Ive been happy subbing from them in my area.
If you cant pass the background check you could try having the business in someone elses name.
Edited 8/12/2007 12:01 pm ET by scott1q1
What about a contract in someone elses name? Wife, father, brother, sister? Can anyone pull the contract and you do the work. Maybe split for a small percentage since you will do all the work?My brain + his brawn = a perfect team
First... never give a cheap price for what may come down the road... because believe me, it never comes.
Second, how much is big box store getting and how much of that are you getting? I'm guessing that you pick up the new door deliver it and dispose of the old. When things go wrong, and don't tell me they don't... are you still getting paid?
Here in the Mid atlantic region I'm at least 25% more then the retailers. I pick my own customers, meaning I will not work for just anyone with a credit card and I never worry about how many people other then the end customer I have to keep greased, to put food on the table.
Unless you are picking up a ton of paying work from your exposer to these piece work jobs... Which I doubt, since you are looking for more of the same. I'd suggest stop doing the installs and figure out how to become contractor a , or find the customers that don't like the big boxes, which ain't hard to do.
You are not an employee. You are an independent subcontractor.
So do as you wish
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!