subfloor and underlayment confusion
While my parents were out of town the PVC cold water line to the kitchen sink sprung a leak and caused extensive damage to the kitchen and downstairs bath in their 1969 split level.
Luckily the kitchen is above the utility room with unfinished ceiling and a floor drain.
(Yes, ALL supply lines have been replaced with the braided stuff after this fiasco.)
To make a long story short, everything’s dry and insurance has paid up.
Kitchen is gutted down to the bare plywood subfloor (appears to be 1/4″, which seems awfully thin and may actually be 1/2″) which had vinyl floor on 3/4″ particleboard underlayment. Very thick (30 lb?) tar paper separated the plywood subfloor and particleboard.
After searching and reading most of the previous threads on subfloor and underlayment, is it ok to keep the 1/4″ ply and lay 3/4″ plywood as the underlayment with felt inbetween?
Bordering this area are hardwood floors in the hallway and dining room.
Most of the forum threads mention 3/4″ subfloor and then a 1/2″ plywood (not Luan) underlayment.
We will probably go with vinyl (Armstrong Urban Settings) or possibly laminate or bamboo.
For various reasons they have rejected tile and hardwood.
Any suggestions would be appreciated, including if I need to remove the 1/4″ subfloor as well and going with a 3/4″ subfloor and 1/2″ underlayment with felt inbetween.
Thanks for any warnings or tips.
Replies
1/4" is not a subfloor by any standard! Drill a 1" hole someplace in it so you can be sure.
Typically twenty years ago, subfloor was 5/8" ply with 1/2" particle board underlayment. We have learned that 3/4" makes a better subfloor and that particle board is good for nothing.
if the existing subfloor has a lot of bounce and sag toit, get rid of it no matter what thickness it is.
What I use now for underlay is usually 1/2" pine AC ply, though sometimes 3/8" is the better elevation thickness.
glue with const adhesive and nail it with ring nails at 6" oc
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Thanks so much for the reply.I'm headed there tomorrow (an hour drive) to take another look and buy the sheet goods.Even if the subfloor turns out to be 1/2" it sounds like it should be thicker.Will go with 3/4 ply for subfloor and 1/2" ply for the underlayment, with felt inbetween.Maybe the old stuff was 1/2 ply with 3/4 particleboard underlayment.
I just have to make sure the transition is level to the hardwood floors.Thanks again!
I'm not sure I understand the felt (tar paper) between the layers of subfloor.
My hardwood guys do that on top of the subfloor, and I guess it helps prevent squeaks, but I've told them I'd prefer that they use rosin paper, because my experience is that if the (sub) floor does get wet, it takes forever to dry as the felt traps moisture. I guess felt makes sense if there is a lot of moisture in the area below that you don't want to migrate up into a hardwood floor but other than that I don't like it.
For your situation, liberal amounts of subfloor glue between the plies would be adequate.
Thanks, Matt - Rosin paper instead of tar paper sounds better for the reasons you stated.Construction glue will be part of the plan, as Piffin memtioned.Wagon is packed and I'm headin' out on a Sunday morning...
It's possible that the tar paper was being used as a shim to raise the floor level, rather than as something for vapor barrier/what have you.Rosin or tar between hardwood and whatever is underneath is generally to reduce squeeks. Rosin will eventually turn to dust, but tar paper probably holds more moisture in the event of a leak. Plus it is probably fuel for a fire, should one start. I don't believe that rosin counts as a vapor barrier (should one be needed) but I'm not positive.We just ripped up a couple of layers of flooring in our kitchen to get back to the hardwood (technically softwood as it is pine, but you know what I mean). Anyway, don't knock wood in the kitchen. Much softer on the knees and hips.
The wood flooring manufacture association still specifies tar paper under food floors.I suspect that it stated back when the sub-floor was skip sheathing over dirt crawlspace/basements. The tar paper was used for both moisture control and dust/inspect control.But it is still what is speced.
>>The wood flooring manufacture association still specifies tar paper under food floors.<<
I assume that was a typo...
could it be that Rosin paper breaks down relativiely quickly and felt seems to stay in it's original condition... after no matter how long...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
well, I think I have somewhat of a clearer picture.Same thickness subfloor in the kitchen and the rest of the house.
Thickness is still undetermined - either 1/2 or 5/8" ply.Wood floor seems to be the typical 3/4" thickness.I'm still guessing the kitchen vinyl particleboard underlayment was 3/4", or could it have been....5/8" to accomodate the vinyl for level transition to the wood?Was/is there such a thing as 5/8" particleboard?
I have boughten PBd in 1/4", 3/8", 1/2", 5/8", and 3/4". I have demoed it at 1-1/8" T&G with nothing other than that on the the joists.So anything might have been possible. you are spending too much time speculating when it is too easy to just measure what is theere, and bounce up and down a few times to see how bad the deflection is between joists. Then you will know more than we do.
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Thank you and I will be back down there tomorrow and will more carefully measure the thickness.It's been frustrating working on this only a few hours on a stretch whenever I can make the trip to their house inbetween my regular job and family obligations.I did measure the PB that wasn't bloated as well as the existing ply subfloor but didn't realize there is a 5/8", with incremental thickness in only 1/8".Let's not waste anymore of everybody's time and thanks for all your help and input.I will be back with no more questions but only to report.
Let's not waste anymore of everybody's time and thanks for all your help and input.
I will be back with no more questions
that don't cut it...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I'm sorry if that didn't come out sound right.I meant I should stop wasting everybody's time.
Everybody's been very helpful as always and I mean that.I'll be down there by mid morning and get back into it and report back with what I end up doing.My brother is driving in from 3 hours away to help for couple of days.
Well, this is what's going on...the particleboard that was water damaged is 5/8", and with the vinyl top layer it gave a smooth transition to the 3/4" hardwood floors.
all were removed and disposed last week.replaced the soft/spongy 4x4 section of subfloor, which turns out to be 1/2" ply, with 15/32" BC and everything's back to level and normal.
decided not to rip out the rest of this stuff because everything felt solid underfoot all these years.another layer of 15/32" will go down as underlayment for the 3/8" Pergo, which will raise things back to level to the hardwood floors.been screwing everything down with coated screws using a makita impact driver. the original construction used ring shank nails for installing the subfloor and still solidly embedded with no squeaks except where the water damage occured.can't thank you enough for putting up with all my rambling posts.
"Typically twenty years ago, subfloor was 5/8" ply"
Piffin You just made my day by saying that. Thanks...more than you can imagine!!!
My place was built in 1990 and when I demo'd the kitchen floor I found 5/8 ply subfloor underneath. Someone here...no names mentioned please...said I was wrong and must be reading the tape wrong. He said they never use 5/8 for subfloors.
I love it...I love it...I love it!!! Did I mention that I LOVE IT?<VBFG>
sorry for the ecstatic moment...best I not say anymore unless that individual wants to comment if he sees this
did you know that Piffin was coached..
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
so much for that ecstatic moment then...
talk about ruining the start of a good day :(
pssst...I hope yur yankin my chain?
hope away...
you'l also find 3ply half used for / as subflooring too...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Edited 9/17/2006 11:24 am by IMERC
? ply half is standard?
3 ply is sheathing not decking...
way cheap hack work...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
That didn't really come out right, what few cells I have left must have fell asleep
should have asked...is all 1/2" 3 ply? I presume it is...
no...
3, 4, 5 and 7 ply..
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Edited 9/12/2006 12:33 pm by IMERC
if ya got chasim deep pockets you can get Nor-Form Fir in 9 ply half...
Nor-Form makes a 14 ply but I haven't seen any of that in thinner than 3/4...
Bruke use to be a supplier for N-F...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Edited 9/12/2006 12:37 pm by IMERC
Usefull info...thanks
I thought I'd heard of some multi ply 1/2 that could be used for structual, must be what your talking about.
it'll say deck rated on it if it so...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
5/8" T&G is still available and still used as sub floor...
so isn't 1 by laid diagonal to the joist......
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
>>so isn't 1 by laid diagonal to the joist......<<
I wonder why they did it that way? I mean I understand why you would want to do it that way on walls - to prevent racking - but floors? If your floor racks, you got much bigger probs than the floor sys. By laying the 1x floor sheathing an a 45, what do you get except needlessly longer spans?
It kept open the option of laying the finish wood flooring either direction
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
trhanksss
ya said it better than I did..
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
re - >>so isn't 1 by laid diagonal to the joist......<<I wonder why they did it that way?----------A while ago FH published a mention of a research done at Virginia Tech's wood products research done on underlayments.It was determined the best performing and most stable underlayment for hardwood floor is diagonally laid 1x with tarpaper.I am not an expert but we do have two 1950s homes with the same setup and live in the same college town where I have visited the research facility for photographing for news articles.On the other hand, 1x wood from the 50's was probably far superior in quality then the stuff that's available these days.
Even 'cheap' boards I find here and there in the houses look like vertial grain and perfectly flat, with the Weyerhauser name branded on one end.
so you could put the direction of the finished floor in to to yur liking...
it was actual demensional subflooring... not 3/4"
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
As the (confused) originator of this thread, here is the latest, and I apologize for another over-winded post.Last weekend I made another hour's drive to my folks' house for removing the base cabinets and tearing out the rest of the particleboard underlayment, which I still think is 3/4". Much of it was still damp and the tar paper underneath saved the bottom layer plywood subfloor and joists, sending the water mostly to the downstairs bath and damaging the drywall ceiling and wall instead.
(Since the bath is slated for a complete redo, a mixed blessing.)
In this case the tarpaper prevented more serious damage.The subfloor looks like 1/2"ply, but based Piffin's info and other posts, it could very well be 5/8". The same stuff appears to be the base layer for the hardwood floors that are in the rest of the house.So...please tell me if this sounds right in a late 60's split-level construction in the mid-atlantic SW Virginia.5/8" ply subfloor throughout the mainfloor, all with hardwood (thickness?) except for the kitchen. I can see the same heavy-duty tarpaper under the wood floor edge that's exposed after removing the particle board in the kitchen.
In the kitchen, 3/4" particleboard underlayment with glued down vinyl with level transition from kitchen to wood floor.Do the thicknesses add up right?
I'm asking because I'm not sure if measuring the thickness with a ruler is telling me what they are.I bought a stack of 3/4" BC ply as suggested by you as an underlayment or possibly as a replacement for the old subfloor.
My folks decided now they want laminate, which may or may not affect the original plan for the subfloor and underlayment with vinyl.
If I use the 3/4" as the underlayment, more then likely a laminate floor would end up higher then the existing wood floor.Option 1: Rip out the 5/8" (?) subfloor, install the 3/4" and choose the thickness of the underlayment for the laminate OR just install the laminate over the new 3/4" subfloor? Would the thickess add up?
I am aware of different thickness laminates.Option 2: Leave the original 5/8" (?), take back the 3/4" for something thinner as underlayment for the laminate.
Some sections of the 5/8" that has a slight bounce from the flooding would be replaced. This doesn't sound as good as Option 1.To do my own math, is there a thicker then 3/4" subfloor?I'm all set up to start ripping/cutting and screwing down the plywood.
(I loved the latest FH article picking my Festo as the best sawguide)Just need to be able to think quickly like an experienced builder on adding up floor layer thicknesses depending on what type of flooring is installed.(My folks are in their 80s and more then happy to not have strangers trampling around in their house for this project, which is why I'm involved in this instead of hiring someone.)
Edited 9/17/2006 11:16 am ET by AhneedHelp
of the particleboard underlayment,
Was it PB???
So...please tell me if this sounds right in a late 60's split-level construction in the mid-atlantic SW Virginia.
I never have done work in either Virgina... but I will go on what I remember from then in the upper NE
5/8" ply subfloor throughout the mainfloor,
very possible...
all with hardwood (thickness?)
thickness????
way when hardwood flooring could be had 13/16" and 7/8" thicknesses before finishing...
I can see the same heavy-duty tarpaper under the wood floor edge
normal construction in most places during that era...
In the kitchen, 3/4" particleboard underlayment with glued down vinyl with level transition from kitchen to wood floor.
PB under vynal was normal... it's surface didn't have much in the lines of or any imperfections that could telegraph thru... it was put under carpet to...
another way of cost cutting... 60's version...
PB came in 5/8 then... still does....
Do the thicknesses add up right?
seem to...
I'm not sure if measuring the thickness with a ruler is telling me what they are.
saw out a solid piece and measure that..
I bought a stack of 3/4" BC ply as suggested by you
when did I do this... is it pine or fir... gott put this into perspective..
as an underlayment or possibly as a replacement for the old subfloor.
is the old sub floor solid?
My folks decided now they want laminate,
Option 1: Rip out the 5/8" (?)
if it's solid .. what for..
install the 3/4" and choose the thickness of the underlayment for the laminate
good option.. lotta work though...
OR just install the laminate over the new 3/4" subfloor? Would the thickess add up?
how thic is the laminate..
I am aware of different thickness laminates.
Option 2: Leave the original 5/8" (?), take back the 3/4" for something thinner as underlayment for the laminate.
more reasier..
Some sections of the 5/8" that has a slight bounce from the flooding would be replaced. This doesn't sound as good as Option 1.
it the 5/8 loose or delaminated... would blockind underneath be a suitable repair..
is there a thicker then 3/4" subfloor?
yup... up to 2"....
you'll do fine...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Edited 9/17/2006 12:28 pm by IMERC
Thanks for your reply - showed up just after i posted msg 29.I'll follow your suggestion on measuring the removed particleboard if they haven't been disposed.Without a fullsize pickup to easily haul sheetgoods, every trip to the store is a project in itself, which is why i'm doublechecking everything before proceeding.
Since he hasn't measured it yet, the subfloor could be 1/2". They had hacks back then too.The PB could have been 5/8" when it was laid, but the water made it puff up./
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
we'll see..
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!