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Here’s a thought if you _didn’t_ itemize the cabinet work in your contract. Let’s say you priced the job at $100. If the cabinet dude got a $30 contract w/ the homeowner, then the homeowner will want you to deduct $30 from your price. But if you say, with complete innocence on your face, that that part of the job was worth only $20 of your price, and anything more is an overcharge, then the cabinet guy will look less than honorable to the homeowner.
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We live in a small town so it is hard to say something bad about someone without it turning into a who said waht etc and everyone looking bad. Here is the story. I had a cabinet maker who at one time was an employee and we helped set up his shop, he then went independent. He still did my cabinets and trim for years. We had a job that he got paid for in advance, but we ended up not using him or his cabinets, He said he owuld repay me, 3 months later, several faxes and phone calls later and nothing. We start a new job next week. the homeowner wants him to do the cabinets and trim to match the last remodel we did at the same house. I contacted the cabinet guy and told him that we had a job to do together and told him who for, I did not bring up money. He went direct to the homeowner, and now has a seperate contract to supply cabinets, trim and materials and the homeowner wants me to redo my contract and eliminate the stuff from my bid. The homeowner will not allow me to bring in another sub to do the cabinets. The homeowner and the cabinet person go to the same church etc and have become good friends.
So you guys that have been at it for a long time, rember I am in a small town, how would you handle this situation or similar where a sub you bring in goes back to a one of your jobs and says "I can do ti cheeper if you hire me direct"
*Josh, if you have a signed contract with the homeowner and there is no provisions for additions and deletions to the original contract, you may be able to protect yourself.The problem with the small town is another matter.YOU have a decision to make and it involves business vs being the home town hero/loser. I use the term hero/loser because in order to make everyone happy you have to lose money. Friendship cannot be bought, only rented. What this means is that if you don't take a positive stand now you will be paying rent the rest of your life in this little town of yours.Because in business, as long as your hands are clean, you should never be afraid to muddy the water a little.Gabe
*Usually it is the other way around. The homeowner hiring a sub directly, instead of visa versa.This sub is an assh*le, OK? Nothing you can do about it. You'll never see your money unless you are willing to sue him in small claims, and serve a Writ of Execution on the homeowner. Which given the way this little cozy group seems to like to play with you, might not be a bad idea.Unless you are willing to stand up for your rights, and take legal action, your whining and bad mouthing this clown will only hurt you in the eyes of everyone else. So either buy, rent, or borrow a backbone or forget this clown.As for the homeowner, well, he is just trying to save a buck and help his friend. If the money is right, then swallow your pride and do the job. If if is a break even deal, walk away from the whole job, and tell the homeowner that you simply can't work with that sub. Business ethics and karma.By the way, even if you do the job, your sub will also whine about how out of square the walls are, and what a terrible job you have done, causing him extra time, money etc. Right? You know thats coming!The more I think about it, I'd sue the SOB, serve the Writ, and forget about the whole job. It would teach these clowns a lesson.
*Small towns are great...most of the time.I'd probably talk to the cabinet sub first. Tell him that you don't want any problems with your client but you already have a contract to do the kitchen.Tell your sub that you're sorry to have to do this but you're going to have to be completely honest with the client about your sub's past business errors, and about how it's considered underhanded in construction to go behind the contractor's back and sign a contract with the client.Let your sub know that under these circumstances, you won't be using him on this job and if he would like to explain the situation to your client, you'll back him up on any excuse he wants to give (as long as it doesn't make you look bad). But if he prefers, you'd be willing to tell his friend from church all about his business and character.You're unfortuantely in trouble. Whether he's on site or not, he'll bad mouth you to this guy. But, if you explain that he worked for you for a long time, you helped set him up in his own business, you had a good working relationship until he took your money, etc. etc., you come out a rose.The truth has a way of coming out.
*Josh,I have put myself in similar positions, employees who ended up being (or trying to be) my competition. Luckily, it was easier because they stayed further away. This cabinet guy is making two big mistakes. He is doing an end-around on you with the client. That is a nono in every business but happens all the time. It is his way of burning bridges.The other mistake is, he was getting work from you. Now he never will. Maybe he has a self-perpetuating business and doesn't need referrals from you but I doubt it. He seems too greedy for that to be the case.But, you are the loser here. You need to work this guy over, try to get back the money that you shouldn't have given him on the last job and then dig a hole.In the hole, bury the memory of your past relationship with your former employee. It's time.MD
*josh,I go with Ryan C.Good advise.Tell the customer everything that's going on and how you feel about it.The truth will set you free.Ed. Williams
*Josh,(My son's name is Joshua.)First, you should take any advice here, (including mine), with a grain of salt. We are hearing only one side of the situation. Based on the information at hand, I have to agree with Ed and Ryan. With a bit of added advice to be very careful what you say. The homeowner and cabinet maker are friends at this time, and no matter what you say, your words will be interpreted in that light.You need to be as careful as you can to be matter of fact, and to keep any hint of anger or insult out of what you say. Do not, under any circumstances, cut down the cabinet maker. He may deserve it, but doing so will only reflect on your own character, sooner or later. This rule applies even in situations where the homeowner is already pissed at the other contractor/sub. It applies so much more in a situation like this.You have a decision to make. Maybe you already have. Whether to continue with this contract or not. If the homeowner wants you to continue, and you do continue... you will be working under whatever cloud you make in dealing with the cabinet/trim guy.It may be best to describe the situation, (as I said, very carefully), and offer to take a percentage of what was budgeted for the trim/cabinets off your final bill. Then let the trim/cabinet guy do whatever he wants. If you were personable and honorable in your talk of him, but he only whines, gripes and insults you to the homeowner, guess which one the homeowner will have the better opinion of in the long run ?
*Why did the sub get paid in advance and then you not wind up using him for the job?...Maybe he is doing the end run to get you back for not using him on that job....who paid him.....we never ever get paid in this state until the work is done........i beleive there are a lot of hard feelings here but in a small town if you can get the job you better take it no matter who does what subbing....all the small towns i have been in any work was hard to come by even hoeing cotton.....
*Josh, I agree with Luka,that you should proceed carefully. I also think that you should make the necessary adjustment in your contract and do the job just as if the cabinets and trim had never been yours to begin with. This may be a little uncomfortable for you, but I think it will make you look better in the customer's eyes in the end. I think that your former cabinet and trim sub will eventually hurt himself if he continues his unethical approach to his business. Also, remember that it is no longer your responsibility to coordinate the project with him, cause he's not working for you. Just don't make it look like your working against him.Don
*What if you seperate the two issues; give up the cabinet part on the current job, crediting a fairly miserly amount for the cabinetry costs (squeeze him, anyway. Doesn't sound like you can win here); and hammer him for the money you say he owes you, to the full extent of your ability. Never say a bad word to the homeowner on the current job about him (but get his nuts in the in the old slip-joints in another venue).Small towns are Tough, capital T.
*Backbone, No what I think he meant was Backhoe, one that can dig to a depth of about 13', and a big bag of lime. Invite him to see the bottom of the big hole you dug, give him a nudge, cover with lime, and fill the hole back in, problem solved, or you could go the chipper route on the bank of a nice stream, and feed the fish. Your choice, it's not personal, it's business.
*first , he got paid in advance for some of the work because in this town a cabinet shop charges at least 60% up front. Sure wish I could do that. after going independent his quality went way down hill so much so that we had to turn down his work on this job and pull in another person. The homeowner saw his work and said " I do not want that crap in my house". so turn down a 50 thou job or find another cabinet maker,,,,,,,,,,,gee,,,,,,,,,,,,,. Met with my leagl advisor and cpa today, went through the whole story, I guess we are headng into small claims...........why.....why cant people just live up to who they are .............. pay for the carny ride ............kind of like th post the other day on "who can you trust".....if you treat a person fair what is the big deal in getting treated that way in return.
*Here's a thought if you _didn't_ itemize the cabinet work in your contract. Let's say you priced the job at $100. If the cabinet dude got a $30 contract w/ the homeowner, then the homeowner will want you to deduct $30 from your price. But if you say, with complete innocence on your face, that that part of the job was worth only $20 of your price, and anything more is an overcharge, then the cabinet guy will look less than honorable to the homeowner.
*Josh,Looks like the deck is stacked against you.1. Small town2. Church3. Friendship4. Sour Grapes (maybe)5. BackstabbingBut looks can be deceiving.Be very careful how you redo the contract. You won't be able to reduce by a mere pittance because the ex-sub will point out the disparity (remember, he knows you and worked for you) and it will appear as if you are intentionally gouging the customer.However, you are entitled to an amount that reimburses you for the time, effort, material (if any), including profit and overhead, that you have already expended on that portion of the project. Don't just redo the contract. Make it a change order and include a good administrative fee to cover the effort of replanning, etc., and make sure the customer signs it.Also, get your ducks in a row as to what extra or preparatory material you would have automatically included for the cabinet portion of the job and make sure you don't supply or have them on hand. If this cabinet sub wants the job, he brings everything necessary.Unfortunately, if you are still the GC for the rest of the job, you must coordinate that job. This includes the cabinets. Without appearing spiteful, you can now coordinate with the sub - THROUGH HIS BOSS! The customer has now put himself in the middle of your job and must cooperate. There are laws that govern this and the customer can be liable for job interference if he makes it difficult for you to get the entire job done in the specified time. You do have a specified time for completion, don't you? Any penalties?How can he hinder your job? By not being able to coordinate HIS sub on YOUR job. How much does he know about construction scheduling? Cabinetry and installation? Will he be available for your meetings and be able to supervise his sub so it doesn't negatively impact the rest of YOUR job.Smile, it will be a wonderful day and I hope you can do something about the money the sub got in the past for the job he didn't do.
*This post fits right in with the one in Business about Calling the Building Dept about unlicensed contractors. Both of them show that some folks "just don't get it".In the end it is the customer who calls the shots. It is the customer's pocketbook that pays the bills. It is the customer's representatives on the local city or county council that passes the building code and determines its' enforcement.In construction, like any other regulated trade or business, a person can either use the rules to enhance business, or use them to try to restrain trade. Unless the entry cost into the business is very high, like a dentist for example, trying to restrain trade will in the end fail because the customer won't go along with the game.So, the customer did nothing wrong at all in hiring a person to do work, especially since your post seems to say there was no contractual prohibition on doing that. So now you can either try to play some kind of game to "punish" the customer and lose in the long run, or you can step up to the plate and do the job you have signed the contract for. If, in fact the contract isn't yet signed, then you can just back out if that is what you want.Collecting on the past due bill is a totally separate matter. Whatever you can do to take care of that is just good business. If it were me I would probably get a judgement against him, serve the levy on his customer, who also happens to be yours, and get your money that way. That makes is a matter of business instead of a community squabble.But above all I wouldn't get too excited about the social relationships. All that does is cloud the judgement and make you look like you are the fox in the manger.
*Yeah, that's what I was saying.
*If you end up writing up a change order and having this sub do the cabinets, make it clear that you didn't hire the sub and he's not your sub. The home owner has arranged to have the cabinet work done and he needs to supervise, schedule, and do any corrections necessary once the sub leaves the site. If you have your cabinet guy do the work, you'll take responsibility but if the home owner does the work himself, any additional work caused by the sub will be on change orders and will be at additional cost.I know it's not the home owner's fault, he doesn't know better, but this is gonna cost him more than if he just let you handle it. Everytime a client tries to save money by taking the professional out fo the picture, it ends up costing more.
*You know me, I gotta ask a question here...Did the cabinet guy actually start making cabinets for that job that you didn't use him on? What I mean is, did he actually buy materials, and start making cabinets, THEN was told you weren't gonna use him? If, and only if, this is the case, then I wouldn't give you back your money either. You hired me, and I started doing the work I was hired for. It wouldn't be my fault if you changed your mind later.As the GC on the job that you didn't use him on, you still are partially responsible because you were gonna use him, shoddy work and all. The customer is the one who told you "no way". Now then, if he did NOT already start working on the cabinets before he got the boot, then he owes you some money. Sorry... it's early in the morning. I haven't been to bed yet, and my mind is getting foggy....James
*josh.... if you are like the rest of us ... you probably don't have enough mark-up to absorb a lot of body blows in this contract...i.e. you are about to lose money on the total contract..if you have a good mark-up.. you can get a copy of the cab'net mkrs contract and credit the owner in full (you keep your entire markup and it's none of their business)...the whole contract is going to go south and rather than change your contract i wud use this opportunity to cancel the contract and walk away... return any money and wish them well... don't burn any bridges..there are three possibilites:you change the contract and work with the sub and the homeowner and try to salvage the good will and the margins you thought you were going to make.. (?)you fight the homeowner and get a different cabinet maker... (?)you return the money.. bite the bullet for any expenses , or deduct any legit expenses to date.. and move on to something else......i like number 3... can you imagine how you are going to feel for the next couple of months, going to work on that job.. are you going to make any money ?will you get any satisfaction ?will the homeowner be happy ?keep a smile on your face and ease on down the road, you don't want to do business with either one of these dudes.. and they've shown you the path out of the forest...b but hey, whadda i no ?
*Lots of good responses. It is reasonably clear to me that the only reason the sub went to the customer directly was to avoid a business transaction with you since that could lead to you holding back the money he owes you.When your customer said he wanted to use that cabinet maker, it doesn't sound like you made any effort to politely point out that you were not comfortable with that sub. You were thinking maybe this is my chance to get that money back?If you stay with this job, I would avoid bringing up the issue of the owed money while on the customer's premises.Good Luck,Rich Beckman