We have a client who is very interested in using Superior Walls for the home we are going to build for them. I’ve spent a few hours searching here and other places on the web and feel pretty confident about working with them.
The only sticking point I have is the moisture issue. I know the concrete is 5,000 psi and they say it will not let water pass, but is this something worth betting on?
The reason I’m thinking about using a belt & suspenders approach is to do a decent job before backfill would cost between $1k and $2k. After, well I would think the cost would increase tenfold.
Should I just trust what they say or is going the extra mile a prudent step?
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Jon Blakemore
RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
I don't really know anything about superior walls, but -
I used a foundation wrap on my house, and think it's great stuff, and would use it again if I ever build again.
This isn't the brand I used, but they have a good website:
http://www.deltams.com/
Boss,I have seriously looked in to the Delta MS product. They seem to have a lot to offer.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
I'm surprised that more people don't use the stuff. My basement walls are dry to the touch - Not cold and damp.
If a funeral procession happens at night, should people drive with their lights off?
Jon, 5000 is good. Cold joints are the issue. I'd go with belt&suspender. We use 6 mil poly, multiple layers. Used bentonite rolls on the first one here, saved the money thereafter.
Whose risk is it?
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Tom,Do you just use regular poly tacked or fastened with some type of mastic at the top? Or do you stick the poly on the freshly coated asphalt?I have never heard of using regular poly for this application, but then again I'm not as old as guys like you, Boss, and Dieselpig.The risk is the clients but the "We've got a problem in the basement" call has to be on my top five of the list of calls I don't want to hear six months after we're done with the project.Now you have me thinking- from what I know the main problem with asphalt is it cannot bridge cracks, especially if those cracks are expanding. I would think that these precast walls *should* never crack and so the asphalt coating would really be effective. What do you think?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Do you just use regular poly tacked or fastened with some type of mastic at the top? Or do you stick the poly on the freshly coated asphalt?
Jon, you'd want a termination bar at the top. We don't have a top, poly goes over the roof. I have no use for asphalt, it's damp-proofing. Haven't run into anyone outside the underground community who uses poly. Not restricted to old fartz, which I'm pretty sure Brian isn't. It's cheap and works extremely well. Keep the sun off and it lasts how long? Nobody knows.
Obviously, I know little about SW. No reason to doubt their cold joint treatment any more than I doubt mine. I just prefer belt&suspenders when it costs so little extra. Redundancy is good. That's why we use 3 layers of poly, in addition to making what's probably already a water-proof house. If you think a wet basement would be a headache, consider the possibility of having no idea where the leak is, roof peak to footing. Not anything I want to experience.
If you do decide to add poly, dumpster carpet works very well to protect the poly from backfill debris. If you don't wanna dive, send the HO. Mine loved the idea. As do the dumpster fillers.
Our insulation umbrella, (more) poly and xps, extends 20' from the perimeter. Two reasons for that. One of which is to provide dry dirt next to the shell. Not much chance of a leak with dry dirt outside. Did I mention redundancy?
I once did a mini insulation umbrella on a traditional basement. Extended it out 12' from the perimeter to a french drain. Most comfortable basement I've ever been in- other than our houses. Again, dry dirt against the walls- no leaks. Only basement in that subdivision that doesn't. Apparently no SW there. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Tom,Thanks for your responses. I definetely will have to consider how much of a risk I want to take. As Gene says, they never leak. I have no reason not to believe him, it's just that potential.I can definetely see why you want belt, suspenders, and and an overcoat just in case with all sub-grade living.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Jon,
The only real answer to your question is in NY. We'll see you at Tipifest where we can all put our heads together and solve this for you. :)
Now go warm up the truck.
Diesel,I wish I could come, but I was the best man in a wedding two weeks ago in VT and then we stopped in PA to visit family on the way back. And my Dad is having his 70th birthday party on Wednesday and all my siblings are traveling to surprise him so my travel money budget is shot along with playing catch up here at work.I hope all have a great time and Gunner stays out of jail.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Just thought I'd try one more time. Maybe next year. Good luck with the Superior Walls project.View Image
Thanks Brian.Any luck with your Cape Cod project?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
I'm not allowed to answer that right now. :) But thanks for asking.View Image
Trust 'em. There are over 50,000 Superior Walls installations by now, the huge majority of them having no waterproofing. Those that got 'proofed were done by the nonbelievers like you.
Spend that money elsewhere, or simply pocket it. But hey, if the client is paying, go ahead and waterproof it, then mark it up your usual 67 percent. Put the most expensive package you can on it, such as Tuff'N'Dri.
The cold joints get more special-application sealant pumped into them than you can imagine, and you probably cannot get anything you might want to paint on or stick on to adhere to the sealant surface, so you wouldn't be doing any good there.
The flat surfaces of the precast panels can be considered the same degree of waterproof as a precast septic tank. No need for anything there.
There are three expensive homes in my 'hood with SW foundations, one of which I built for a client. Never a problem with moisture, and this is our wettest season in 70 years.
Gene,I was hoping you would see this. So you would never consider using waterproofing on a Superior Wall? Even if it was a problem site?The site should drain fairly well, I just want to know where the limits are.BTW- any tips for me as this is likely to be the foundation we end up going with? I've read their Builder's Guide a few times and will follow all advice, just want to make sure I don't screw it up.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Every house in our area has water in the basement - except for me & my neighbor.
We both have Superior Walls - no other moisture barrier.
The gravel bed excavation needs to have a true bottom, one nice plane, all undisturbed. Make sure the gravel goes in and is vibra-tamped well. More thickness than that specified is better than less.
The perimeter drain that goes in outside the building line is the key to staying dry forever. It should either pipe to daylight, or to a dry sink of appropriate capacity. Make sure the line is socked all around.
Your mudsills will all be PT 2x10, so make sure your supplier has enough in the lengths you need for the job.
put in good footer drains.. OH!!! that's right - there is no footers :-) You know what I mean though... :-) Daylight the drain tails if at all possible or drain to a sump pump.
I thought you did additions.... If it is an addition, I'd be very concerned about where the Superior walls meet up with whatever else is already there...
I have a buddy that's been selling Superior walls for at least 10 years. He recommends using an excavation sub who has done Superior walls before. I think it's inportant that you use the exact type of gravel they recommend too.
Yeah, that's our primary focus. We are very interested in dabbling in the building market, though.
I don't think I would ever consider Superior Walls on an addition unless it was very large. Although you never know...
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Jon,
Another vote for Delta -MS. Used it on wet clay sites, with great results. Gotta have good drains though, too. Just in case.
Brudoggie
OK, Bru. How many precast foundations are under your belt?
I have done one. But there are two others in my 'hood, both of them put in by guys I know. No problems here, and no waterproofing.
The guy that put in mine is a friend, and he has put in over 40. No waterproofing, no problems.
Listen. The manufacturer of the system, Superior Walls, says no waterproofing is required or necessary. So where are you coming from?
Why are you guys so persistent about this? Do you all double-felt your roofs? Double wrap your walls? Do inner and outer window flashings? I don't get it.
Hey, I can't fault anyone for belt & suspenders here. Do it once. I just dug down to the footing on two sides of my 40 year old house, wire brushed the old damproofing on the concrete block walls, troweled on a heavy coating of asphalt foundation mastic, applied one layer of six-mil polyethylene sheeting. And covered the poly with 2-inches of expanded poly foam board. I duct taped the seams in the foam board.I did not install a drain tile. Thought about it, but there is nowhere to drain it.
Thought about another layer of poly sheeting, but the foam board will protect it.Am planning on adding a 10-foot wide horizontal poly sheeting layer sloping down and away just under grade. Also will move the typical foundation plantings away and instead add flat bluestone slabs (or similar) at the perimeter.Question: How should I protect/beautify the poly foam board above grade. Flashing and insect protection are concerns.Bart
I have done 4 Superior Wall foundations, no problems in any.
One was done in a site that was a heavy blue clay. The only additional thing I did on that one was backfill with a cheap fill sand. The sump pump ran a little for the first year until the top layer of clay finished settling and provided a cap to keep the surface water running away from the house.
I heartily recommend Superior Walls.
Terry