Back in the foundation error thread, Tim and I got to discussing lot line oops. I suspect that there are somne stories to be told on that subject. Here’s to open it up and I’ll be back
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http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=54025.77
This where we took off from...
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Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
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I was acting as agent on a job to gain a permit in a difficult location. The neighbors did not want this to go thru and raised every objectin they could think of, none having anything to do with the objective standards set in the ordinance. Finally, they claimed that their lot line was too close to the proposed addition to further delay things while they hired a surveyor. Once he did the work, the line ended up almost two feet further on their side of the fence. Boy, did they have public egg on their face(s)!I learned a long tiome ago that when i sopeak up in public to make sure that I'm right first.Davy Crockett stated that principle pretty well when he wrote his autobiography. I don't remember the exact quote, but it was something along the lines of, "First, you check your priming pan, then you think things through to be sure you're in the right, then finally, you give'm what for, devil be damned!"
he was speaking about taking on other members of congress, not caring too much for the way things were done there by professional politicians, he being more the kind of feller who prefeerred to just git things done.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I worked with guy who had broke the end off his 100' tape ( or a 250', I ferget)..any hoo...he reattached it at the 1' mark, and made a note to hissef to calculate that in.He laid out an elementary school foundation...had it all poured b4 someone noticed that it was all off by one foot...what a fool.I figgure it was karma, he had worked for another contractor b4 going solo, parted on bad terms..claimed he got the shaft, so he went to the former boss's site and moved the duplex nails on the batter boards just a wee bit..Stupid is as stupid does.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Restoring, Remodeling, Reclaiming The Quality..
We've some property in the Adirondack mountains of far upstate NY. The property description in the deed refers to lots first platted in the early 1800s.
When my father and my uncle went to split the property about 35 years ago, the surveyor, after tedious work locating archaic benchmarks, placed the pin defining our northeast corner, and blazed the line defining the border with our long-term neigbor.
It showed that we in fact owned his spring, his private garbage dump, the "night yard" corral for his draft horses, a corner of his stone and timber sugar house, and a good portion of his sugar maple stand.
Everyone had been thinking for at least 100 years that the dirt road adjacent the brook running between us was the border. But here were the pins and blazes saying it wasn't.
The neighbors' place, all 700 acres of it, has been under the ownership of the same family since the 1860s. Ours, which adjoins, was bought by my grandfather in 1923, after he had spent almost ten years as a summer boarder in the neighbor's big old farmhouse. The family ties are old and deep.
It only took a little conversation, and a letter off to the surveyor, directing him to relocate pins and re-measure, to place the pins anew. A new deed filing was done, and everything settled in as before.
It sounds like here..I thought I was buying 2 lots. One was 1.6 acre w/the house, second was 1.4 acre unimproved, but a flagg lot.Talking with some locals, I had a re-survey...it seems now that I have just a tad over 5 total..that explains why my taxes appraised higher..higher than my total purchase price..um, this is where I tell you...they do NOT include the house on the original tax assesment..just what I actually paid for the land..the house is just along for the ride so to speak..as well it should be.300.00 a yr for tax..1.6 with house, 2.4 pasture, woods...the 1.6 valued at 22k, the the 2.4 @ 36k..I paid 30k for all , 14 mos. ago.The house is 2400sqft..I think I did OK..
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Restoring, Remodeling, Reclaiming The Quality..
howdy... meet yur new neighbor
at those prices , i'll be right overMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike, I love ya too much..your methodology would auger in so bad..sure ya can get close to the colledge (colloitch) for more $ per acre..but this is the last land near the depot thets not overrun,,,not over run cuz we are almost in the Daniel Boone forest..and it's not a tillable plot for the now defunct tobacco market..I have three choices, plant it, sell it, or graze it. My inclination was "buffer". That is what it is, cept i am selling hay...so I get horse feed for less than what a tractor would run me.....I'd like my shop "out there" but the utilities alone would bust the nut. The DW is getting cranky of the shop being in the house ( I can't see the problem here..lol)Any who..yes, I'll sell the flag lot, with restrictions, it's gettin crazy here too..........I just stopped in anew frame up the valley, this guy needs help building a house...so FU'd I could not belive my eyes.....( and I am offring to trim it?)..New Thread comming up...when to intervene...thanks Mike, it's men like you...that keep me honest.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Restoring, Remodeling, Reclaiming The Quality..
Damn! My taxes are closer to 6 G's!
That is why I got outta the NE CORRIDOR..........got too stupid.Might I ask ? How old are you?
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Restoring, Remodeling, Reclaiming The Quality..
47. Why do you ask?
I'd haveta say his name..and local..
It weren't you, rest asssured....LOL
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Restoring, Remodeling, Reclaiming The Quality..
All the deeds around here in WV say blah-blah acres "more or less". Basicaslly because its all mt. land. I know on my deed theres several points that start-" at chesnut sprout go 10 rods". Tuff to find after the chesnut blight!And my surveyor tells me it common to find real little patchs deeded seperate...these were for the moonshine stills... so govt. could only take the land the still sat on.
Anyone ever heard of Head Knocking Day in Vermont where the the father was supposed to take the oldest son around to the corners of the property and knock his head into the tree thus making a impression on the soon to be heir of the property boundary.?
Property taxes here: 8 acres / 1400sq ' house/1200sq ' shop/garage/sawmill -$110.00
Town property: 4 1/2 city lots 1200sq' house $120.00 THATS @ YEAR!
yeah..mine was the same "tomb stone" to "tombstone"..spelling counts. We have a lot of CW dead here,,,,,,try for a pin search..all ys find is bullets...........
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Restoring, Remodeling, Reclaiming The Quality..
Town property: 4 1/2 city lots 1200sq' house $120.00 THATS @ YEAR!
Cool.
My two lots (.378 acres), and 1400 sf of house, $2800 and change in total taxes. That's per year (having increased $500 from 2002).Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
WV rocks; it's one of my favourite places of all time, super nice folk. What cty you in, if I may ask? I'm familiar with Pocahontas-Randolph-Pendleton-Greenbriar-Tucker. You guessed it: cave exploring.
Was'nt me!
Whoah. That IS stupid. Wonder how much THAT costs as opposed to buyin' a new tape....
<<I worked with guy who had broke the end off his 100' tape ( or a 250', I ferget)..any hoo...he reattached it at the 1' mark, and made a note to hissef to calculate that in.He laid out an elementary school foundation...had it all poured b4 someone noticed that it was all off by one foot...what a fool.>>SPHERE, I was on a job about 25 years ago when something similar happened. The project superintendent was the project manager's brother-in-law. It was a union job, and we were pouring a slab 100 ft. wide by 300 ft. long. Someone else was going to erect a metal building. The superintendent did all the layout, and somehow, when we got to the very end, we were 1 foot short. I'm guessing it was a "cut me a foot" error. We had made a number of pours, of course, and I think somewhere back there one of the sections was a foot shorter than it was supposed to be, and no one went back and measured the whole thing until we were making the last pour. One pissed off brother-in-law was the immediate result of that measurement. Allen in Santa Cruz
Thank you God for Life, Love, and Music
That foot short tape gets around. I did an application on a building several years ago, and drew up the lot, sited the house, designed the addition to the house, etc and went back on site to verify everything.Then it all went on hold for three years, and the owners came back for more. I filed the permit application and on the site review, the town official came up with measurements different than I had on my site plan.Hmmm....Now, I knew that beach erosion can change that setback, but this was a sheltered one that would suprise me to erode a foot in that short of a time...And the setback from the road - well, thay had repaved meanwhile, so the distance to center of raod could have changed a few inches...but the whole lot seemed to have shrunk two feet, one in each direction. I'm scratching my head while feeling like I must look as tho I'm trying to put something over on them...Then I look over and see the knot in the end of his tape wheel.
What's that?
Mind if i get another tape out to redo the setback measures?Whew!!!
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Yeah, there's likely piles of stories wanting telling on the topic.
My whole neighborhood is one, and not because of the surveyors. They opened up a brand new elementary school here in a "new" part of town (the year being 1951). A number of people "got in" on this good deal, and bought up lots. Not one of the lots sold singly, either (not usre how a couple of the 1.75 lots or 2.25 lots were subdivided that way, but they were). Now, in all fairness, the lots were small at 50' x 150' deep, so buying two or three was rather sensible for 1400 & 1500 sf houses.
Now, the entire subdivision had been small farms and semi-rural, so there were established treelines in the entire neighborhood.
The houses go in. The owners start wanting fences, following the old adage about fences. So, the whole neighborhood seems to have used the one fencer, as the fitting and height all match. Said worthy, though, put the fences in for maximum convenience, rather than any regard for property lines. (He largely avoided any existing tree lines, or crossed through them to make setting the posts easier.)
Must have been a sweet job, as the chain link must have just flown on in near-complete rolls . . .
Fast forward 2 or 3 owners and five decades--there's almost no property in the subdivision that does not have some sort of "adverse possession" built into it. Yet, we all seem to manage, each in our own way, to cope. Some time in the future, I know I'll convey the bits on the other side of my fences to "unencumber" the neighbors.
Some day.
A common reference that iritates me is: " It's about an acre wide".
I've seen that done by real estate brokers a lot.
Usually referring to something roughly 208' x 208'.
But it's aggravating.
"A hard head makes for a sore a$$."
"It's about an acre wide"
More "proof positive" that the R.E. licenses really, really, need more math on them . . . <g>
Like for the "land" property I was looking at 4 years ago. The directions were fun, as well as the "not listed" information the RE agent gave me: "It's riverfront property."
Yeah, it was. It was a "cut thorugh" oxbow is what it was. Estate deed for the two abutting estates defined the property line as the centerline of the river (riverette in this case). Old metes & bounds followed the old track around the oxbow, so that described the property. County line also followed said boundary, except that it followed the "current" watershed centerline. Family on that side was not happy paying (higher) taxes in county on the other side; thus they were selling the property. They also would not, repeat not, excepting over the cold, dead, corpses of every family member extant would not sell to the folk on the other side of the fence.
What an attractive property. You could stand and look at it from one side of the river (which was 8' out of its banks in springtime rain when I saw it). If you bought it, you were faced with getting an easement from the less than happy with present owners neighbor that was going to be about 25 or 30 "acres" long--and 15' wide--(or a bit more in drive than in property).
Funny, that land is still for sale . . .
Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
this town was settled around 1670... all metes & bounds survey..
if you go back in the bushes to some of the common corners..like where 3 or 4 lots come together ... and start scratching around you can usually find 3 or 4 survey marks.. looks more like an impact area than a property corner..
might be 3 old rotten oak hubs and a rusty piece of rebar..
anyways , it didn't take me too long of building other people's houses before i started recommending a property survey as part of the deal..
and i always recommend they pay the extra charge to have their corners monumented... with either granite or concrete bounds...
it used to be an extra $75 / bound.. cheap price.. and the next surveyor will think twice if his corner comes out different Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
and i always recommend they pay the extra charge to have their corners monumented... with either granite or concrete bounds...
These only occur on public roads here. Which have such curvy boundaries that nobody but the surveyor has much idea where they are. This road was built in 1825, when the Va General Assembly appropriated $50k for its 43.5 miles. Been moved once or twice since then, further complicating property lines.
A neighbor bought everything his grandaddy owned on this side of the road. Deed says 2 acres, but no survey. I can't see but maybe .5 acre. He tried to get me to buy it last year. For substantially more than Sphere paid, although the house here is less of a liability. <G>
I have one back corner that's a "huge poplar". Is it ever. 6' diameter. Wonder where the corner actually is.... Not that anybody cares.
The client house I built was on a 100' wide, 1 acre lot, same road, couple miles away. Side setbacks are 25'. He wanted a 50' wide house. Settled for 48' wide and got a surveyor to mark the corners. I wasn't about to. Not that setback encroachments are usually much of an issue. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
A nice couple was buying a house in our development. The day before the closing, they discovered that the seller had constructed the driveway 17' onto the neighboring property...and covered their tracks by moving the pin. Ooooooops.
From what I heard, there were some interesting negotiations that night to arrange the purchase of that 17' segment.
Some years ago I took a certificate course on civil engineering/ land surveying. One weekend I brought the equipment home and ran a traverse around my property. I discovered the beginning of my neighbors driveway was completely on my property.
As I was running it again to double check the neighbor came outside to see what I was doing. He was an older gent, nice guy. When I gave him the news his face got so long it about hit the ground.
So I says to him "I never want to talk about this again, You can fight it out with the next owner when I sell". After that he was a real good neighbor
I remodeled our last house, including a lot of window and exterior wall changes to one side. The setback was 4 feet and we had exactly four feet to a small retaining wall. The permit counter accepted our architect's drawings showing that we had the correct setback. I thought nothing of it at the time, because the archy generated her lot line from the legal description and by measuring from the corner with a surveyor's tape.
Later, the neighbor wanted to put up an addition. His house was about 46" from the retaining wall, and I wanted to stump him so I got a one-liner done on that side to try to verify the wall as the line. Turns out he had the 48" and we had the 46".
If I'd known that when I remodeled, I'd have needed a design review and a variance, costing thousands of dollars, to move those windows.
Piffin ....Kind of along same line. I once had blacked in two house's in a new sub-division that had no streets or curbs nor lot numbers and sure enough one day a guy came along with a tri-pod on his shoulder and I had them on the wrong lots [right side of the street though] The investors I was turn-keying the houses for said "no problem" we have both houses sold and we will just buy two more lots and when do you think you can start construction on them? It was a really good day in the life of a builder.
Do GPS devices play any role in surveying today?
for artillery survey they sure do...
the army can now put everyone on a common grid.. even their FO'sMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
GPS devices play any role in surveying
Some, not much. "Full" MilSpec is only 1 meter, civilian is right at 5-10 meters; most surveyors are measuring to 1/1000 (0.001) feet, and then recording the result in hundredths (0.01 feet being aproximately 1/8"). GPS mostly helps find bench/land marks.
RF devices, though, are making some inroads. We have a fellow in high demand who actually runs a one man show. His isntrument has an RF tracker that "follows" the target he carries. Then he has a remote to take a "shot" (which includes some feedback from the instrument on where/what/when--tres cool). It can be a little spooky, you're minding your own business, and then the instrument goes "robo" on you whirring around in that vaguely sinister servomotor way . . . Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Our first house was on a tightly-packed city block - all the homes built in the 20s by the same builder. The lots were supposed to be 40' wide, but the story goes that developer at the time tried to take a few feet here and a few there so he could squeeze an extra house in at the end. Somebody at city hall caught him 2/3 of the way down the street and now the house on the end has an extra wide yard.When we bought our house, the survey said 1' of our driveway and garage were on the neighbor's land, and he wanted $5K as compensation. I told him I wouldn't park on that side of the garage and shovel snow from his 1' of driveway for free as long as I lived there!
Our place was built in 1926 by a developer who bought two lots, combined them, and built three buildings. Then in 1929, they re-divided it into three lots and sold them off. So, being the middle one, our legal description is that we have lot # whatever except for the Northern whatnot feet, plus the North howevermuch of lot # something else.
Back when it was all one property, they only ran one sewer line for the North building and mine, the lines combine under the North building's driveway and run on their side of the boundary all the way to the street. So far, it hasn't been a problem....
-- J.S.
I've lived through survey line oops.
I now know how to read and understan title work...especially the "exceptions".
My advice is this: don't rely on your lawyer to read and understand your title work. They don't bother reading anything.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
"My advice is this: don't rely on your lawyer to read and understand your title work. They don't bother reading anything."Ain't that the truth! Even in my limited real-estate dealings I've been amazed at the "details" glossed over by someone getting paid to know a contract backwards & forwards.
treetalk and sphere - what kind of sales tax rate do you have and do you have an income tax? your property taxes are beyond enviable!
Washington State our area 8.8% sales tax / no income tax and sorry to say do not know rate on say $1000 value for property taxesbut like Maverick or someone said we are just short of $6 grand / yr
excuse me for sidetrack - keep those property line stories coming
Sales tax is 6%..and yes we have state income tax.Ky is one of lowest tobbaco tax states as well, but there are rumours rumbling that that may all change soon..they want a "sin tax".
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Restoring, Remodeling, Reclaiming The Quality..
It's the truty 6milessouth.
I had a situation where I hired an atty for every phase of a purchase. He wrote the PA, reviewed all the documents and handled the closing.
He missed a front page exception on the title work, and the previous owners didn't even own the property that they sold me.
It cost my 7500 to rectify the situation. My second atty told me that it was a clear case of malpractice, but that the statute of limitations had expired. In Michigan, there is a two year statute of limitations for attys in real estate transactions.
I guess it's easy to understand who drew up the statute of limitations laws....
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
I've written my own deeds. I then have my lawyer review them for errors rthat might cost me. On th elast one, he politely asked me which textbook I got my boilerplate from, as he was unfamiliar with a couple of choices in wording. When I told him it was all original, he claimed that it was as good as any he had writtten, with exception (notice that phrase) of one word. He explained why it could be mistaken as unclear and suggested another phrase to use. He then agreed that I could have a job as his secretary anytime I wanted one.Made me feel pretty good.The way I learned that choice of words was important surronding those "exceptions" was not one that I was directly involved in, but aware of. A seller had done their own language when they were letting a neighbor have a small ( about 30' x 40' ) triangle of land where a shed had mistakenly been put across the line - being good neighbors and all...they found out ten or twelve years later that the language construction was such that they had actuially sold the major sixe lot and retained the little triangle. There were a couple of lawyers involved in reconstructing that fiasco, but since there was no contention made, and both parties were moving the right direction together, it wemnt smooth as two lawyers could make it do.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
GPS in surveying? Absolutely.
But their role is usually confined to topo mapping of large parcels.
Yeah, sort of.
Did a screen porch and 3rd garage addition a few years ago on a pie-shaped lot. Had to go for a two line variance on the back and side setbacks-Surveyor did the usual thing-shot from monuments for the front and back. And when he did the math, he came knocking and said there was a 4 foot discrepancy.
In CT, the surveyor's gotta resolve it, so he "rented" the high quality GPS for 24 hours (that was 7 years ago before they stopped building in a randomized 10 foot error) and discovered that the front monuments were actually correct, from 1879. The monuments in the back from 1957 were off 4 foot to the south. This is in pretty dense woods, so it's pretty hard to shoot lines.
That means an entire neighborhood of 106 homes is off by 4 feet. Gotta love it. Most of the HO's don't know- just the guy behind me who thinks I'm a total PIA cause I said something when he put in a fence.
Steve
Well yes WV does have a 6% sales tax and a income tax.Of course all real estate is assessed at 60% of value and at least our local field assessors are pretty low ballers.They even said they wouldnt count my deck because it was oak and not pressure treated. But along with these low taxes are the low amount of public services available and people who live in rural areas are used to taking care of things themselves.Still it is a great tax deal and it just makes my dad in NJ ($8000@ year) laff like crazy.Course he'd like to move here if he could ditch mom!
I live on a lake that was built in 1928 for summer cabins.House have been build over the years. Some of them have been remodeld/added on multiple times and other tear down and replace.So there is a very wide range of houses.One of the bigger house is on the 2nd tier. Word has it that the lot was sold before the road was in and the buyers though that they where getting first tier. Probably not true.But I think some of the other stories have more truth such has the sea planes during prohibition and the house that was owned by a friend of the sherif and prisioners help build.Anyway the basic lots are 50x100. But of course a lake is not very regular so there are lot of variation from that.I have two pie shaped lots. 110 ft total on the lake side. Suppose to have 25 & 30 ft on the road side.But a power pole was installed at 12 ft from one corner.And when the house next door was built in the late 30's that was assumed to be the boundry line.