I had a problem sweating some copper pipes the other day. Adding a 4′ slant fin baseboard heat. When I applied the solder it melted, but not evenly around the seam, thhere were gaps in between. This made me apply me solder sort of like trying to fill in the gaps. Afterwards, I deceided to thin the pipes, join the pieces together and then sweat it. While trying to tin the pipes the solder would like flow it just rolled off. Also the flux turned dark during the heating process.
Can someone tell me what I was doing wrong.
thanks
btw, it took many tries, but I finally got it together.
Replies
The pipe and/or the fitting probably were not clean. Next time use emery paper to polish both the male and female surfaces to be sweated. Immediately coat the polished surfaces with paste type flux.
The surfaces must be clean. Good luck on your next attempt.
you didn't mention that he shouldn't use acid flucx and to use rosin that mtches the solder...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Sorry my man, but rosin based flux and solder are mostly used for electronic applications. Any flux that most supply houses have are fine. Acid based fluxes will work, but they are usualy too agessive. Too much cleaning.
sorry my man....
you use acid on copper and get back to us about what happened to all those joints...
supply house flux is rosin bae...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
I made a mistake by not being clear about what I was saying. About acid fluxes I should not have even mentioned them to an individual that has little experence soldering. The major problem with them is you have to clean the joint when you're done with soap and water. About soldering paste, most heating and plumbing fluxes are zinc chloride based. Sorry about the misunderstanding.
only pure rosin flux hasn't zinc chloride in it... or only a trace amount in it..
and it's a tough cookie to find....
so without getting over anal... consder flux - flux for GP soldering and rosin for your gold work and sensitive electronics unless you have a freon bath cleaning system......
keep the acid off of the plumbing jobs and save it for the tin work...
and clean the fittings...
thousands of fittings or not...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
cleanliness seems to be he major issue with sweating... ya gotta be about annal...
make sure you wipe with a clean rag, the flux is applied with a clean applicator and the flux isn't contaminated...
flux the components, add heat, wait a moment for everything to come up to tempature, apply solder...
when the solder melts remove the heat and wipe the seam / joint with the solder for an even application...
if the solder looks dull - not enough heat...
looks shiney and even.. jut right...
blackened or the pipe turns blue and begins to flake... too much heat...
you can always go bck to add more heat and resolder but if you cook the pipe there's no going back....
got a little water in the line... wrap the pipe with dry ice and freeze it back away from yur sweat.....
the point of just right vs not enough or too much heat is a pretty narrow window...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
You DA man...saved me a wad of typeing..I just replaced all that was down the "cellar"...no fault of mine, except..except..I din't close off the joist bays , and wind froze the work from last year...Flux matters..solder matters..Thanks, I'd a hated to write a book of "How not to plumB'Good Job, Imerc, good job.Now? what ya do with tha thermos?
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Restoring, Remodeling, Reclaiming The Quality..
you can have the old one..
found a 2 liter quad walled all stainless...
maybe this won't catch fire...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
ya gotta quit spiking my stuff...I can't drink that napalm, like you do...........after you left here..oh, hell..nevermind...LOL
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Restoring, Remodeling, Reclaiming The Quality..
In my limited experience the 3 main areas to worry about are 1) cleanliness: get both pipe and fitting new penny shiny. emery cloth (sand cloth, whatever) on the pipe and a brush on the inside of the fitting, 2) get flux over all the copper, both inside the fitting and on the pipe - do this without touching the pipe again with anything but the flux brush after you cleaned it, and 3) water getting into the joint as you try to sweat it. If that is happening, you will never get a proper sweat joint. If the water where you are working won't all drain away, stick in some poly tubing and suck or blow, depending. Two other little points: Your typical hand-held propane torch will put out a flame of two cones. You want the tip of the inner cone to just kiss the fitting. And sometimes when I'm using flashing to protect the area, if it touches the fitting it can act as a little heat sink, so pay attention to that spot.
There, that's 90% of what I know about plumbing !
I would add to "r"s comment a little tip an old plumber gave me one time when you have the water in the pipe problem is to stick a wad of white bread into the pipe to act as a sponge while you sweat the joint. Make sure its the tasteless plain white bread as it will dissolve and flush on through once you turn the water back on.
Would you still do this in a baseboard heating system like the one he was soldering together? I have done this many times, but never in a heating system. I guess it might not pose a problem, but I would be reluctant to try it.
good point. I was thinking of a system that would be flushed. Although I've never used or worked on radiant heat systems such as this they must have some sort of drain. Dunno. Even if they don't I think the bread would dissolve to an extent not to cause any problems.
Exactly, wheat bread will be the root of all evil in the pipes as it will never dissolve and you will be cleaning the screen at the faucets for awhile.. Also wanted to mention that too hot of a pipe will give you open areas. By the way, does anyone know what that little piece of bread is called??
GB
I think the name for the little piece of bread sounds like a good thread topic where everyone gets to add in and then vote. I'm thinking.
Wouldn't put bread in a closed loop hydronic system. If the system was piped correctly there should be boiler drains to drain the loop you are working on. Blow any remaining water out. Clean, clean, and clean. use flux and keep any flux off the un-needed parts, will turn green and look terrible. Heat the fitting and let the fitting melt the solder, not the flame. Run the solder around the fitting and wipe joint when done. Wipe down to clean up and drips or globs, make joint look like you know what you are doing. Don't over heat pipe, with enough practice you will know when pipe is ready. Many years working with plumber father!
Also he go to a mapp gas torch that will heat quicker than propane homeowner torch and not fry the joint.
I inhereted my fathers set of torches, aceytlene/air, and every time I pick up a propane torch I think it takes forever to heat up a joint. At 10 yr old I could do a real mean lead joint in CI. Had my 10yr old help me move some pipes around, he thought it was really cool to strike up the torch. Untill he stuck his finger in the flame to see if it's hot! He needs a bit more training!
>> He needs a bit more training!Not on that particular point. I don't think he'll do that again. Noy on purpose, anyway.
I was told after the lead rasp was replaced by copper pipes, the inventor of the sweating process was forever immortalized by his fans by naming that piece of bread after him. Although it most commonly was used as an exclamation in anger. Now, I've believed this story for a good 30 years as it was told to me, however I didn't research it, just took it on faith to be true.
GB
The bread plug?
Easy!
Tampon.Formerly just 'Don' but not the 'Glassmaster Don' or the lower-case 'don'.
Had to pull some strings to get that answer.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
pulling strings or not...
how do you get that out of the system....
they have their place... leave 'em there...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
That's an application where you use up all that solder containing lead. It must have been there for a reason and nobody is drinking from it! I add asbestos to all of my gypboard compound too. Goes well with that vinyl flooring when the mud slides off my knife and hits the floor. Gotta go. Got some furnace ducting to wrap. Tyr
Echo the thoughts of others, make sure all pieces are clean and fluxed (you don't need to go crazy, just a thin coat) Also, if the fittings are not taking the solder, you have be over heating the fittings. If you over heat, the fitting will reject the solder. After you solder the fitting, wipe the excess lightly with steel wool (don't touch the flame with it), then heat just a second and your done. Let it cool naturally unless you need to work with it quickly. If you have any excess flux on the pipes or fittings, wipe them off, the flux will turn the copper green over time.
Didn't read through this whole thread, so maybe this was mentioned, but here's a tip I picked up form an old master plumber, who ALWAYS wore white cotton gloves when sweating copper. Not real thin ones, and not real thick.
Then you can wipe the joints quick with the gloves on. Keeps your hands a little cleaner too, and avoids some burns.
I tried them on my last copper supply project, and they will be a permanent fixture now in the "copper" toolbox that also has the emery cloth, flux, MAPP torch, etc.
My plumber tells me that the biggest mistake most occasional plumbers make is to wipe their (oily) finger over their newly cleaned pipe, admiring their work. The small amount of oil on their fingertip will ruin the solder job. You know, you just give it a rub to be sure it's smooth.
Greg
Sorry my man, but thats old school. All you have to do is be reasonable with your tube or fittings. If thay are extremlely dirty than you have to make adjustments.; clean them! But if they are right out of the box., you don't have to cleam them Check out Great Britain.
you don't have to cleam them....
sorry my man but we know better...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Always Always Always Always Always Always Always...
clean all fittings.
be all
SanchoRon the caballero bowed low as he waved his sombrero and said goodbye.
FREE SANCHO!!!
The only thing I said was, if they are dirty, clean them. You don't have to get compulsive about it! My advice should have been directed to someone that does thousands of fittings. My error.
One thing hasn't been mentioned yet -- was this the last joint that completes a closed system? If so, it may be that heating it heats the air inside, causing it to expand and try to escape thru that last tiny space, blowing the solder out. If so, open a drain valve someplace to give the air an easier way out.
-- J.S.
They do make little "grapes" that work the same as bread and dissolve harmlessly.Hope he had the rite flux and solder combo.
Sounds to me like you are frying the beejeebers out of the joint (translates too hot) and not clean enough. Make sure you sand the pipe purther back than the joins, not just tothe fitting line.
Thanks for all the responses. Next time I'll double check the cleaning step. I just look at the flux I used. It doesn't say what kind, just says for sweating copper pipes, water soluble. Does flux have a shelf life, this jar could be a couple years old.
none I ever heard about but match the flux to the solder...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Match the flux to the solder? I use paste or liquid flux, and whatever roll of non-leaded solder I have, usually silver solder. Joints come out mighty fine, smooth not gobbly, watertight and neat looking. I wipe all fittings down once cool. Is there something I missed?
so how could you have missed something if they're all dress right dress and covered down..
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Ah yes: if it works don't fix it. Thought maybe there was something that could be done better. :)
Clean, clean, then clean again. Even the natural oil from our fingerprints can cause you problems.
I recently had a similar experience, literally trying for hours to sweat just one joint. I finally gave up and called my plumber, who promptly made the joint work on his first attempt. Here is where I went wrong...I was using solder that was a "hand-me-down" from my uncle's shop. This solder had a much higher melting temperater, requiring me to overheat the joint, thus burning out the flux. My plumber replaced my elbow joint, used his solder, just slightly heating the joint, and got it on his first time! I was pissed, but I learned a good lesson that day.
Anyone tried the new copper fittings that have the flux embedded in them? I think Watts makes them. According to the brocure, you just clean the pipe, add flux, then add heat. Stop heating when you see the solder coming out.
They claim to be cheaper than standard fittings when the cost of solder is considered. I compared the prices a bit - I think that the 3/4" 90 was about $0.25 higher than the standard. I just picked up a free sample pack while at HD. When I get around to installing them somewhere I'll let you know.
The syndicated version of This Old House is running the series on a flat in London.I am guessing it was from the early 90's.Several interesting differences.They where using a flux on the copper pipe that did not require cleaning of the pipe first.For turns they used bender that was similar to a conduit bender instead of elbows.They had female fittins that had an internal grove that was filled with solder.Apparently they are commonly used there. Could not find any link to the the new ones in the US so I don't know if they are different are not.http://www.yorkshirefittings.co.uk/fittings.cfm?brand=02&defsub=01http://www.cda.org.uk/megab2/build/pub125/sec5.htmThis shows them using both kinds of fittings.The other think is that copper is common used for gas lines.
Years ago they had a paste on the market [ I believe it was made by Oatey] that claimed when using it you didn't need solder; it didn't work. You ended up adding solder anyway. It's cost was out of this world. Maybe the technology has improved enought that they found something that works. Don't know myself, but its worth a try. Let us know.
I finally got the opportunity to try the fittings out. They are similar to the ones described above - with the internal ring of solder. I got into my crawl space - not a trivial task in my 1914 home - with everything that I thought I'd need. It turns out that I never even got to use the samples. The dry fit was so tight that I couldn't take them apart to add flux. I tossed those and used standard ones - which I brought into the crawl with me. Unfortunately I had to get back out to get another stick of copper since the fitting would not come off the one I had.
I think that the pipe ate into the solder ring when it went in - had to push pretty hard. May still be a good idea once the manufacturing bugs are worked out.
Lew
P.S. the fittings are Watts E.Z.Sweat.
http://www.wattsind.com
Edited 3/19/2005 12:52 pm ET by Lew