So a few weeks ago I got on here all excited about a large batch of douglas fir a local lumberyard was getting rid of on craigslist. Long span 2×8, 2×10, 2×12 stuff going for dirt cheap. I bought it based on some smart opinions here, and it turned out to be a decent purchase. I’m (almost) ready to start building a 560sq.ft loft in the “great room” of our house, and needed materials. The fir looked like a fit.
Damn Craig and his list. Some guy a few hours from me disassembles old post & beam barns and sells the reclaimed lumber. It’s not cheap, but the thought of using 8×8 posts & beams to build the loft (which is divided into 3 platforms) is just way too appealing to ignore. I mean – no nails… pegs! Exposed old wood beams! 8 inches! If I gotta stub my toe on a support, let it be one with some class, right?
Anyhow, the beams are not cheap (compared to the steal I got on the fir). He’s selling for $2 bdft, or about $170-$200 a beam. Oosh. He’s got the lengths I need and all told the materials would be under $5k. I can scrape the money together, but what I lack is a wife who sees a reason to spend that kind of cash on something we already seem to have bought (i.e. the materials to build the loft). Plus, she’s never heard me mention post & beam or timber framing ever as an option – so she thinks I’m just being frivolous or getting excited about something new & different (me? make thoughtless buying decisions? NEVER…).
I’ve shown her pictures and described the awesomeness of having your structural elements be something to show off rather than hide. Our home is an old brick church from 1896 that we’ve already exposed the cathedral trusses and lots of brickwork as part of the finished structure.
So I ask for two bits of advice:
1) does $2 a bdft. for old (but lets assume decent shape) 8×8 beams (either fir or pine, not sure yet) seem reasonable (and if not where does one look for comparisons)
2) any thoughts on how to turn the wife’s suspicions around to enthusiasm for what feels like a *much* cooler way to build our loft…
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Replies
1 yes
2 no
Hah - Well said.--------------------------
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#2 - show her the This Old House Weston project from last year, which was a timber-frame http://www.thisoldhouse.com/toh/tv/house-project/overview/0,,20198092,00.html
Have her check out the interior, which is pretty cool (though I think the outside just looks odd).
1.
I haven't seen the beams. Might be high or might be a sweet deal.
2.
you gotta be kidding!
You are about to step into a beaver baited bear trap.
Unless you are 100% sure on this deal, you are leaving the door open for years and years of "I told you so"s stacked up.
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I'm not sure about your number two - though I like the way "beaver baited bear trap" kind of rolls off the tongue.I *think* you're saying if I screw up, I'll hear about it for the rest of my life... Sort of like the $100 over-sized tarp I bought 4 years ago for a very specific purpose that never came to pass, which she mentioned *again* 3 days ago... =)PS: Anyone want a good deal on a huge plastic tarp? Used only once, to cover me in shame...--------------------------
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Keep the tarp.Gonna need it to cover the pile of timbers until you "get around to " building that whatever with them sometime in the next ten years
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You are about to step into a beaver baited bear trap.
Wish somebody had told(warned) me that on my wedding day. :)
I decided not to reply to that with my first thought. I don't wanna get nabbed - sorry, the dyslexic fingers - I meant banned
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
"a beaver baited bear trap"Never heard it before but I love it. I plan on doing what Zig Ziglar says, 1st time I use it I'll say "Piffin said", 2nd time, "I've heard that", 3rd time, "I've always said".
1. depends - the beams are part of the picture - joinery is the other part - I've seen lots of structures cobbled together from barn beams - empty mortices in odd places, poorly executed joinery, mismatched/different sized beams - eh - not so special - if you do it, make sure what you envision is what you end up with -
2. show her pictures -
If those beams are in good shape and not all notched up. The last time I got a quote for reclaimed fir it was $12.00 bd ft. and if it's close less fright.Ditto on the this old house project. Gan you get a rebate for energy efficiency update?Mention resale. Maybe send her on a holiday and just get er done!!!
$12.00 ! Wow... What size and quality was that?I like the idea of sending her on vacation, but the problem is she *just* got back...--------------------------
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Just got a note from the seller, the beams are a mixture of pine & chestnut. I don't know a thing about chestnut - either in appearance or load-bearing properties. Anybody have some wisdom to share?--------------------------
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sounds like a good time to get some new tools for those beams
http://www.timberwolftools.com/specials/mafellcombo.html
Wow... WOW. You just blew my mind. That mortiser would cost more than twice as much as all the materials. I think I'll look for the old school manual tools first... Incredible.--------------------------
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just think of the nice sewing machine she could buy for that kind of money! She could be come a comedian and keep you in stitches the rest of your life.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Hah. This thread is filled with certified (certifiable?) comedians... =)--------------------------
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those timber frames were cut and assembled green - lots harder to cut mortices in dried material, tho pine and chestnut are not oak - are these hewn beams?"there's enough for everyone"
The photos I've seen make them look like they went through a mill (versus hewn) - I could be wrong though.I assume one can cut a mortise by carefully removing bulk material with a drill press and chisel, right? Maybe I should wait until my book on timber framing gets here before I open my big mouth.--------------------------
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"removing bulk material with a drill press and chisel"
well, yes - a reasonably heavy duty drill press - if you have tables and supports and beam handling capabilities -
I would be thinking more in terms of a hole hawg and self feeding bits - and a big slick...
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more on the beam work here:http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&msg=28293.1 "there's enough for everyone"
Thanks for the link David, I just went through that whole thread. That place looked great. It looks like the owner wanted to leave a pretty special home behind judging by the quality of woods and materials he was having you guys use. It looked like a neat project (not just the beams, either).I now know of a new tool I need. The big slick. It's fun just saying it.--------------------------
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You can find lots of timber chisels (slicks etc) on Ebay or/and go into The Forestry Forum. in the timber Frame folders.http://www.forestryforum.com/board/index.php?board=11.0
Jim Rogers usually has used ones for sale that he sells sharpended up....plus there's tons of great advice in there for just what you're looking for. Even timbers for sale if you can find someone local to you. Start a thread asking.
http://www.cliffordrenovations.com
http://www.ramdass.org
enough to make yur nose bleed...
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Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
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well, the makita's on the site are a little cheaper. google timber frame components. should come up with some options to spec exactly what you want cut, jointed, ready for assembly.
It'll at least give you a basis point to show her how much your "saving". sorta like all the money my wifes saved me a Target over the years
What's the phrase? Go broke saving money?--------------------------
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Old school tools are fine but think about buying used equipment instead.. Used stuff sells for about 1/2 price and it doesn't depreciate much from that.. there are people like me who have such tools used for only one house and are still in great shape. Another words buy decent used tools and resell them when done for about what you paid for them..
Can you spell free?
With old school tools you can spend hours on a single timber or do it in minutes with power tools..
That's a good point frenchy - The struggle will be getting further budgetary approval from the missus. It's all good though - I'm going to see if there's any flexibility in the seller's pricing. My rough numbers tell me I need 1760bf, which includes about 10% for errors. We'll see where we're at after he responds.I'm wondering if you can rent some of this equipment...--------------------------
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I've seen the large 16 inch Mikita saw at a few rental houses (not a lot) I know one of the most required tools will be a Milwaukee hole hawg which is always available for rental. I've never seen the chain morticer or The groove cutter available at a rental house. If you are willing to do a lot of extra work you won't need a groove cutter but you most definately will need a chain morticer or add a lot of time to hog out those mortice pockets.
You will absolutely need the 6 inch wide Mikita power plane and if your timbers are 8 inches wide you'll either need a belt sander or the 12 inch wide power plane.. (and access to 220 volts) Then if you want to turn smooth beams into hand hewn looking beams you need to get Mikita's curved base power plane. Or if you want to do some curved braces etc.. Again none of those have been available at a rental house..
You absolutely will need a 10 gauge extension cord.. Don't try it with anything less.. These tools suck up energy like crazy and if the voltage drops because the extension cord isn't 10 guage you will burn out these tools.. (then it's cheaper to buy new than repair them.)
Depending on how fast you are you'll need these tools long enough to nearly pay for them. I know I was not fast at first because I was nervious to begin with and I double checked everything and then checked it again. If you put the mortice pocket on the wrong side or transpose a number the only acceptable solution is to completely start over.
6x6 old fir. Harder then you can imagine. Now you can tell her you just saved $12.000.00
Remember sell the sizzle not the steak!! Good luck
That's a pretty good point. Finding the materials is one thing, but turning them into a cohesive structure is where the rubber meets the road.The fellow with the beams has enough clean horizontals that I should be able to modify them for use as verticals. At the moment they aren't picked over, so I'd get an early shot at getting the good ones. Although, a few random mortises wouldn't be the worst thing, assuming they didn't weaken the structure.I trawled through amazon.com and ordered "Building the Timber Frame House: The Revival of a Forgotten Art" (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0684172860/). I realize a book can only take you so far, but I figure if I experiment with my joinery on enough scrap wood, I can reduce the waste on the timbers (and make better looking joints).I'm in no hurry, thankfully.--------------------------
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Women that I've been able to talk with don't seem to like the idea of a timber frame because it's too masculine.. Men like/love timberframes and post and beam (different ways of building) whereas women find them masculine and limited in design flexibility..
Here's how to get them to fall in love with the idea.. First accept that women like to control color. Wood takes some of that choice away from them. (There is a way to deal with that , more later) Another words, ask her what colors she wants and agree that when you're done you'll paint everything that color.. Get her involved in areas of concern so she doesn't feel you're shoving something down her throat..
Second go to the library and check out books by Ted Benson. He has some wonderful pictures in some of his books and maybe one of those will excite her appetite. There are several magazines out there with pictures of timberframes/post and beams.
Third sell her by showing her the large open spaces that are available in timberframes and how homey and comfortable they appear..
Fourth explain to her how much load large timber can carry and what great efficency can be achieved using SIP's. Large timbers do not need to be encased in sheetrock due to their ability to retain strength for long periods of time in a fire.. so the building is stronger, safer, and more fire resitant..
Next.. timbers. 2 dollars a bd. ft. is massively too much to pay for timbers especially if they are the wrong size and designs must be worked around what you have rather than what makes the best sense for the space.
How much too much is $2.00 a bd.ft.? A typical 9x7 x8 1/2 ft. timber costs $16.00 at a lumbermill. at $2.00 a bd.ft. that same timber would cost cost $80.00 from the reclaimed site.. Or another words. $64.00 more You might need over 4000 bd.ft or more for what you are thinking of. Your cost for recycled wood? $8000. your cost for the same amount of new wood would be as little as $800.
Now I can give you ways to duplicate the look of antique timbers or you could make the timbers more acceptable to your wife by rounding the edges and softening the look.
If you'd like to see my timberframe home go to 85891.1 and scroll down through the whole thing. there are more pictures at 94941.1
Any if this is of interest just ask.. I love to talk timberframe!
Sweet talk the wife for Post & Beam?
Is that what you kids are calling it these days? There's no way you are going to get your wish without at least flowers and dinner beforehand.
I think you are walking down the plank in a slow way....lol! Maybe when it is all done she would like it, but it will take longer and you will have to listen to her tell you how wrong you are!
From my lumber yrd ( in NY on LI) supplier of fir beams I paid $400 for a 6x12 16 footer and that was cheap compared to other prices I got (due to some shipping costs) this 16footer I picked up...so you do the math
http://www.cliffordrenovations.com
http://www.ramdass.org
My math gives me about $4.17bf for your beam ... so suddenly $2.00 isn't bad... But I still need to see the stuff in person to figure out the quality.--------------------------
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That's what's wrong with buying from a lumberyard versis buying direct from a sawmill.. By the time it gets to a lumber yard an absolute minimum of 7 people have had it and raised the price each time.
I know douglas fir is expensive but that's many times more expensive than what I paid for blackwalnut white oak or any other hardwood.
In fact the going rate for a lot of timbers is currently around 17 cents a bd.ft.. DUE TO THE SOFT MARKETS. So a 6x12 x16foot beam out of say ash is now going to cost you.. $16.32 plus sales tax.. I can haul up to 12 foot timbers in my short box pickup. Longer and I use a trailer. There I've hauled home up to 24ft. 12x12.s with no problem at all.
Well ya ain't gonna find too many mills on LI. there are a few but none sell the timbers seasoned and dressed which was what I needed.
If I were to buy a whole lot for a home I certainly wouldn't go to a lumber yard.Matter of fact I probably own every Mill catalogue along with their CD's made. I planned on milling my own when that dream was alive..
If you think about it though..one LVL 2x12-16' which I bought a few of today comes close to a hundred bucks.
There's two mills within 20 min of me but none sell seasoned timbers which was what I needed. Oh well...I did try. http://www.cliffordrenovations.comhttp://www.ramdass.org
Edited 6/30/2009 2:45 pm ET by andybuildz
And a dried douglas fir would be many cost multiples over what you could buy them direct from the sawmill not to mention the shipping.. I understand why you paid what you did.. Under those circustances you had to..
If you buy a house full of timbers don't buy them from someone who is on the web or has a retail operation set up.. Timbers from a place like that will be several times more expensive than what you could pay for them elsewhere. Where you want to look is places that sell to pallet mills or railroads.. They tend to be smaller operations more remote than sawmills that sell retail.
Now do not think that wood that goes into pallets is in anyway inferior.. they come from the same trees as graded wood but the sawmill sells what is called mill run. Mill run is wood as it comes off the log and not graded..(saves the cost of grading) I don't know if you're familar with wood grades so I won't try to expalain everything to you.. but roughly 20% of a log will be the highest grade suitable for furniture. 60% will be solid structure wood suitable for timberframing and 20 % will be lower grade. Now not all of a low grade board is low grade.. it's just that the best grade has virtually no knots or character while the lowest grades may have defects in part of the board.. (wane, loose knots, rot, etc.)
If you want to know what the real price wood is sold at contact Hardwood Market Report 901-797-9126 Memphis Tenn. http://www.hmr.com
this could be a little flexiable because some wood local mills don't get enough of so they tend to sell it down at pallet prices.. For example poplar and Hickory is relatively rare in my neck of the woods so if they get one or two logs a month it may be worth simply selling off at pallet mill prices..
Right now because of insect damage Ash is real plentiful and extremely cheap. Ash is a wonderfully strong and nice looking wood as well as being unusually nice grade.
Some woods like say Boxwood (or basswood depending on your location) have dropped dramatically yet its' a really beautiful white and not a bad wood at all to make a timberframe out of.. Because it's not terribly strong I'd be tempted to go up a size to gain back the required strength. But that's just me.. I believe if some is good more is better and too much just starts to be fun!
For me...if I ever get to do my own timber frame I will most probably buy my own mill and mill the timbers myself. Can't get much cheaper then that plus to me it's all part of the experience. the most difficult part would be handling the logs. Different circumstances warrant different possibilities. I know plenty of people that have truck loads dumped right in their yard from companies that clear areas they're developing or for whatever...well... lots of different circumstances. If I were to buy a mill the more transportable ones are good so you can go right to where they're felled and mill'm right on the spot. The Petersons are great for that and you don't have to spend a fortune on them....and there areless exensive ones then PEterson that do the same exact think with a little more effort. You set the mill up right around the log. If you're building an entire house you save big time milling your own logs. Not to mention the green timbers are far easier to chisel then seasoned ones....faaaarrrr easier!I suppose for me...it'd be for me...and the whole experience would be just a real soulful heart felt dance.
Somehow I don't think I'm gonnna get the chance but if I did.....ya never know.
http://www.cliffordrenovations.com
http://www.ramdass.org
Amen brother! I air dried my timbers for 3-4 years hoping to minimize checking.. I did to a great degree but I increased the work load ten times. I could do a green timber in an hour but a dried timber took 10 hours..
That plus dried timbers were much harder on the equipment than green timbers would have been.. I only did a couple of green timbers (oops) <grin> but those never required resharpening the blades like a dried timber did.. In the end It took so much time to swap out planner blades that I had two portable power planers because I could do about 1/2 a timber on one set of blades and the second half finish with the other powerplaner.. I actaully wore out 22 sets of planner blades. Wore out as in sharpend them and resharpened them so many times they had to be thrown away..
As for milling your own I don't think so! I believe it's cheaper to buy from a sawmill than to mill your own.. Here's why, On top of the price of the equi9ment itself you will need some way to handle those big logs and finished timbers. . A large skid steer at a minimum.. Now add all the maintinace required for a used skid steer, and the sawmill. I'm sure it will cost more than$3400.
I bought over 50,000 bd. ft. of the best, most expensive hardwoods and I spent only $25,000 to do that.. If you selected something like ash your cost would be less than the cost of buying the mill and equipment to work it.. I think a decent sized house could be built using less than 20,000 bd.ft and that includes all the subflooring, flooring, material for cabinets, trim and etc.. 20,000 bd.ft of modestly priced wood will cost around $3400 or so.
Not to mention your time and risks.. Milling wood is dangerous.. I see very few sawmills where the operator hasn't had a major accident.. lost fingers, limbs, eyes or even had boards driven right through their bodies. And time? Well there's the learning curve. Plus the set up and adjustments to get everything working properly.
I could tell who sawed my timbers, If dan did it since he'd grown up using that mill and had the most experiance of anyone on it the timbers were always reasonably close to correct.. seldom more than a 1/4 inch off.. However several other sawyers could be more than 3/4 of an inch and when you have to plane off 3/4 of an inch that's a lot of added back breaking work..
A really experianced sawyer can put out 1000+ bd.ft. per day per man. That's a system that flows well is well organized, has plenty of space available and doesn't break down.. getting parts is total lost time! If you're thinking of doing it all yourself please rethink. There are some situations that it can't be done with one man and it's a real risk to attempt..
Now getting the wood from the sawmill to your new homesite.. I did 90% of mine with my 1/2 ton step side short box pickup truck . I could handle about a 1000 bd.ft. per trip (of dried wood, Half of that if the wood was green) Length up to 12 feet was no problem (tailgate down it's an 8 foot bed) Over 12 feet I hauled home on a trailer I borrowed.. Then it was easy to haul over 2000 bd.ft. So delivery charges really amounted to a few tanks of gas and my time..
A couple of other things to consider.. Milling trees into timbers produces a lot of waste. You'll need a place to dispose of that waste.. Plus you will need a lot more trees than you imagine and denuding your landscape of that many mature trees will greatly change the site.. I personally would rather denude some farmers wood lot than have a bare building site without any mature trees.
I started my timberframe when I was 51 years old.. I'd never done anything like timberframing and I really learned as I went.. I was in pretty lousy physical shape when I began. My whole career was mostly sedentary. Fat, no experiance, and still I did pretty decently.. (You've seen the pictures? )
Yep...I've seen the photos. Exquisite, and I know how much work it had to be. Trust me. Been there...many times.
I know all the reasons you mentioned why it's not as cost effective in some ways to buy then to mill but as I said...at this point of my life it'd be more about the last hurrah. The soul and spirit of doing it all from the raw tree up but I do know all you've spoken about... and then some. I've really researched it to death over and over when I thought my house would sell. I figured many ways to get it done without a skidster....or organize it as such that I cold hire a skidster to do a lot of the lifting all at once. Build a lot on the ground then lift the sections up...lotta different thoughts on it. I've done things on my own that sometimes I can't even believe but at this point I'm kinda drained from trying to sell this dump and maintaining it all (which takes a real lot) and paying the huge bills to the bank and this and that. I'm more emotionally drained then physically so thinking about my timber frame dream has even fallen off the back burner. Who knows what the future might hold but I ain't countin' on it...at all. funny...I went from a TF then to a hybrid as my ship was sinking..to the dream up in a cloud of smoke...poof.
No idea what'll be in store for me.
Right now I'm trying to put together a proposal for a job thats probably too big for one person to get together thats not used to such a big undertaking but it could save my arse and I've done some near impossible things in the past alone so.....so here we go again.
I'm getting too old for all of this although...I think in some ways it keeps me stimulated whether I like it or not and that keeps you younger then you might be other wise...either that or it'll kill me...lol.
Well...back to the books...echhhh http://www.cliffordrenovations.comhttp://www.ramdass.org
Edited 7/1/2009 9:28 am ET by andybuildz
Oh I understand.. I'd never tackle anything like this in the future. I mean it was all of my part time work for over six years and then it became full time as the housing market came to an end around here..
Now while I have time I now longer have the drive to finish it that I once did..
But I know what you mean by saying you can surprise yourself with what you can achieve by yourself or with just a little part time help on occasion..
What did you do with the real frenchy?!!!There was a live link in that message, and you offered up a real helpful bunch of information!
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A link? me?
Location must mean a lot on this item.While frenchies figures sound ridiculously low, yours sound ridiculously high to me. buck twenty five to two bucks a bd ft for nice stuff to me IIRC. I'll check with a guy...
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I called my yard and I called the place my archy got the most of thel beams who charged even more.
Don't forget, it's dressed as well which adds to the cost.
f there's a next time around I'm going to do some shopping for sure but like I said I did call two places who were close to the same price. http://www.cliffordrenovations.comhttp://www.ramdass.org
Edited 7/1/2009 7:12 pm ET by andybuildz
Location
Location
Location
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exactly! The funny thing is I needed the one beam real quick b/c the HO's mason screwed up the size of the slab we we building on which was what made the beam we had not fit...grrrr.
I need that bean REALLY fast so I ended up picking it up myself after I ordered it from my yard. the place was in Queens right near Brooklyn and in the middle of an industrial area. Next to where they keep all the NC buses and garbage trucks. Turns out this place is a huge mill. I thought it was kinda bizarre. they had all kinda nice stuff in there. Corner brackets already milled and planed. Tons of trees in their yard ready to get sliced up. the mill was really old. the saw was HUGE and ran right into the concrete floor. the yard was fenced in with away tall heavy duty cyclone fence with razor wire up top. Weird!
I asked if I could order directly from them next time but no dice. Oh well. Not that I'm going to have the occasion to need them real often. Thats probably why it's so expensive. Next to no one orders much of this stuff on Long Island or the boros.
http://www.cliffordrenovations.com
http://www.ramdass.org
Piffin if you go to the web site I had http://www.hmr.com and get a copy of their newsletter you can be up to the minute on pricing wood at wholesale..
Now they change slightly every week but the're close enough to make a fair judgement about what is a fair price to pay..
I'm cheap so I ask my sawmill for their old copies I never get anything less than 2 weeks old but so what. A penny here or there doesn't really matter..
That book from Ted Benson is the Bible for timber framers [at least the ones I worked with], so you are on the right track with that. Layout your timbers with a sharp soft lead pencil [NO carpenter pencils here] After layout triple check all of your measurements before any scribing or cutting !!!! Another hint, try to make any braces at 45* angles so common tools [large speed square] can be used for layout. We also used a common framing square with stair gauges for angles and or roof pitches. Have multiple framing squares and stair gauges so that you are not changing the gauges on every timber. You will need a 16", 10", and a 71/4" circular saws with good carbide blades. NO right angle drills !!!!! You can't drill a hole straight with one of those. You will need a good heavy duty straight 1/2" spade handle drill. To cut a mortise after layout [2" as an example] first use a framing square to scribe the lines [ if you try to scribe to deeply you will find the blade will try to follow the grain] with a utility knife and a sharp blade.Next cut the sides of the mortise with either the 10" or 71/4" depending on the length of the mortise staying inside your scribed lines. Then use your drill with a 2" self feed bit to drill out the mortise starting at the ends and working to wards the center overlapping the holes to make removal easier. Control your depth to the size of the tenon. I use a 2" chisel to clean out the mortise to the scribed lines, also a 1" corner chisel will make life easier for the corners. Also a small tri square set to the length of the tenon for checking the depth and squareness of the sides of the mortise. If you are set on the used beams and are leaving them as is you will not need a power planer, besides a large Stanley plane can dress up a beam in a reasonable amount of time. The hard part with used beams is they may not be square. Good luck and have fun. I have a 16" Makita and a 16" Ryobi circular saws available if you need one. Feel free to PM me if you have any questions I would be glad to try to help. Dave