I am trying to find out if Tankless water heaters are all that they say they are. Can you really use one for the entire house or just certain areas??Any info is greatly appreciated, it sounds too good to be true.Duke67.
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They are the most worthless piece of crap you can find.
OK, now that I have your attention...
Do a search here on the topic. You will find tons of info. Take the rah-rah with a grain of salt. There are a lot of people here who blindly promote these units without having a clue what they are speaking of. Oh, they think they do... but...
In the right place with the right unit they are a great option.
I suggest you go to the following site and read the paper I wrote.
http://www.stateind.com/new/Tankless_WhitePaper.pdf
I have been accused of being very biased on this subject. I tried to write this paper in an objective manner. At least, the issues raised by this paper need to be considered before you invest a lot of money into one of these heaters.
I would be happy to try to answer you questions about the paper or the subject.
Bill Hoover
AO Smith Corp.
Thank you. This will be a valuable resource for me.
I get tired of self-appointed "experts" here and other places spouting off how these are the all-in-all when it come to heating water. They allow their perception of reality to be clouded quite heavily by their political and cultural views.
Thanks again for a good resource!
Just in case you guys think that nobody is listening:
I really wanted to get a tankless water heater. I had a Takagi unit all mentally picked out for when our water heater gave up the ghost. We have a space problem in our home where the dryer door opens into the water heater and bangs it on the gas supply every time. Plus, we regularly run out of water in the 40 gallon tank because we have to keep the water temp fairly low (small child). However, after reading stuff you said and talking to a local plumber we decided to stick with our traditional tank model and try to find another way to solve our problems. No solutions yet, but I'm working on it.
Depending on your situation, you may be able to get a lowboy model and then elevate it so it is not in the way. An alternative is to have a plumber install a mixing valve to temper the water coming out of your water heater. That way, you can safely raise the water temperature in your heater to produce more hot water and still have the safety of relatively low temperature water at the tap.
Thank you, those are both really good ideas. I've never heard of a mixing valve outside the water heater and I'm wondering why my plumber didn't suggest it. Oh, no I'm not, the guy was a hack who will never enter my home again. When I find a new one, I will ask him/her about both of these. Thank you.
If you go with one Takagi is one of your very best bets. Do you have HW heat in the house now?
This dumb homeowner doesn't quite understand the question. If you are asking whether our house is heated via water using radiant floor heating or radiators, no, we are gas forced air. If you are asking whether we have a Hot Water Heater (not sure why they call them that), yes, we have a gas tanked unit.
One of the drawbacks to installing the tankless unit for us was the venting. We already have venting which is barely grandfathered in (3" vents aren't allowed anymore) so that would all have to be redone in a very limited space. We'd also have problems with the gas supply, since we are maxed out on BTUs from what is coming into our house. Additionally the power for it would also require some contortions. After gathering more info (here) about some of the complaints users have with them I realized that while a tankless might help, we'd have a whole new rack of problems to contend with and the expense wouldn't be worth it - it would be cheaper to replumb and run new electrical into another part of the house and move the laundry.
You are NOT a dumb homeowner. I know one when I see one and you ain't it!
If you had a hot water baseboard or radiator system you would have a great option.
....They allow their perception of reality to be clouded quite heavily by their political and cultural views. ....
One's cultural views affect one's lifestyle which is so much of how we live; how we utilize energy, what we "expect" for our "comfort level" all define one's perception of reality.
What works for one "clouded expert" may not work for another and yet be a reasonable experience.
walk good
That is what I have been saying all along. I recognize that fact. The people I am taking a shot at do not, they think their perception is the only correct one. I see that there are multiple correct perceptions.
I've tried several times to access your link and it just locks up my computers.
Tried to access it by direct type and claims no server found.
State Industry's web has no search for finding it.
I will withold judgement until I have a chance to read it.
thank youwalk good
I don't know what the problem is, you are the first to let me know you cann't access that link. If you go to the State Industries site (http://www.stateind.com), then click on "New Products and State News" and then you will find a link to the article on tankless heaters.
Always ask what some of the individual parts cost.
the tank jobs are pretty simple. some tankless, like gas,are more complex.
you may save energy but you may not save money.
like the old gas shortage joke in the early 70s - "if you want an economy car you have to be willing to pay for it"
Thank you, I will try thatwalk good
I was able to access the site and print a copy for reading. I quickly read through and noticed you were sp[eaking only of electric heaters. Any comparisons on gas?
Thanks againwalk good
I think y9ou will see that the gas comparision is in the paper as well. In reality, it is about the same.
What about putting a small tankless unit in front of a small (40 gal) tank vs. a larger (75 gal) gas tank unit?
Problem is large bathing tubs and multiple family members will run the 40 gal dry frequently but the tankless have stability and first-use delays. By having both, cost will be somewhat higher, but you don't have the larger continuous losses and large size of a 75 gal gas tank and you'll never run out of hot water.
Has anyone tried this before?
I have not heard of anyone trying this before. I just don't know how it would work. I still would work to have a larger storage heater or a second heater. I know there is the image of a lot of energy wasted in a water heater but a modern storage water heater losses only about the equivalent of a 60w light bulb. When you trade that little heat loss versus the cost of a tankless, I would choose the storage unit.
Bill
Yes but I'm not shooting just for the supposed energy savings of tankless, which I'm not convinced will be that great. Why my "hybrid" system would do is provide unlimited hot water (a problem in our house) without having that huge 75 gal tank and yet not have the temperature stability problems or flow rate restrictions of a typical tankless only system.
Perhaps the 75gal only would be enough. Need to calculate recovery rates and find one with high BTU input to make sure.
Once you get into 75 gal tanks, you cross over to commercial heaters at >75,000 BTU/hr inputs. Certainly a high input 75 gal will provide a large amount of water. I wish you success in deciding the best approach. I believe it could be a good challenge to determine the most cost effective solution.
Depending on how much you want to spend on the total system, we offer a high efficency commercial heater..at BTH-120 which has a 60 gal tank and 125,000 BTHU/hr input with a 94%+ efficiency. It will produce 142 gals./hr with a 100 degree temperature rise. In addition it is a relatively small unit...only 55.5" high. It is being put into many homes with big water demands. I would think that this is an expensive unit but may be a better financial alternative than a tankless + a conventional water heater. (Being in R&D, I really don't have access to the selling price of these units.)
I wish you success.
Bill
If you're having trouble, try right-clicking on the link. The window that pops up should have something like "Save link as". That should allow you to save it to your hard drive.
Then find the file in explorer, double-click on it and see what happens.To the welfare state another person means another mouth; to the capitalist economy it means another mind. [William McGurn]
I have a single click Mac. Never had a problem with other links. It may be the pdf reader is a PC software? walk good
We have the Bosch Aquastar and it has been in use for three years. Worth the money? In my case I had little room for a storage tank type of water heater, we only just had gas ran to the house (so no existing exhaust) hot water use seems to happen in quick succession (wife,me,teenager,oldest son etc) then not used till night time. With the old electric unit (4 bed house with five living in it) we very often ran out of hot water. We always have non-stop hot water and yes, like any hot water supply when someone turns on somewhere else its affected. But that is down to how the house is plumbed. I would suggest fitting a balanced valve in the shower to reduce the chance of "burns". Had we the room, I most likely have fitted a regular type heater due to cost ($300 as to $500). What you need to figure out is how you use and need hot water.