tankless WH gaining in popularity?
Saw this homemade sign the other day in the window of the local plumbing supply store.
What struck me is this place is ‘old school’ been in the same family for many years and here I see a sign pimping these new fangled fancy tankless water heaters…and a tax credit no less. It makes sense to me with the tax credit and rebate from the gas company these units are basically the same price as a standard 40 gal tanked unit.
I know around here I am seeing more and more externally mounted Rinnai and Nortiz heaters. I was wondering if any of y’all had noticed the same thing?
I mean have you noticed tankless water heaters gaining in popularity in your region? Are tanked water heaters becoming obsolete?
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Edited 1/24/2008 9:25 pm by madmadscientist
Replies
What were they selling to the left of that rebate flyer? Plumber's crack models?
Sorry, someone was going ask, might as well be me?
Yea I know I've seen that add and it seems strange to me too...
Its for the ToTo washlet which is some kinda fancy pants toilet seat that cleans your bottom for you...
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
I get it, thanks.TFB (Bill)
If its endless how is it efficient?
If you have teenagers then deffinetly not.
If you travel a lot then it makes sense.
If its endless how is it efficient?
If you have teenagers then deffinetly not. If you travel a lot then it makes sense.
Well I guess that all depends on how you control your kids. My dad was in the navy and we took navy showers (even the teenage girls) in our family.
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Just a warning to anyone looking to buy one of these.
There ain't no federal tax credit on them.
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Bill that's not true. There is a $300 federal tax credit for any water heater that meets a certain efficency measure. All the gas fired tankless do and a couple of super expensive tanked units do.
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
No there is no tax credit on them.You can even see it in the signs that you posted. Read the Noritz poster..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Bill,
I just checked the energy star website and there is a tax credit, depending on the certification, for hot water heaters.
http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=products.pr_tax_credits#chart
Many of the tankless models are on the list of appliances that meet the certification.
http://www.gamanet.org/gama/inforesources.nsf/vAttachmentLaunch/B9F3B9CF3BC4C7F585257107005DE622/$FILE/taxcredit_rwh_ef.pdf
Read it again.It clearly says that the is no tax credit for any WH that are installed now..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Bill,
I stand corrected. I missed the Dec 31 2007 date.
Edited 1/25/2008 2:52 pm ET by rdzone
Are you talking about the "Expired December 31, 2007" that is on almost every item but the solar? That would be annoying, to go to all that expense and find out you were 3 weeks short.
Oh wait I see what you are saying.
Most of the consumer tax credits expiered end of 07.
So we are screwed till congress figures out how to pass them...
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Biil,
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f5695.pdf
Note under Part I, Line 5a. "Residential Energy Property" costs. Limiting to $300.
Now go to page 3, right hand column, about 2/3rd's down, just under the second caution sign.
"Qualified residential energy property is any of the following.
. Certain electric heat pump water heaters; electric
heat pumps; geothermal heat pumps; central air
conditioners; and natural gas, propane, or oil water
heaters."
To determine if one's heater is "Qualified," we go to page 5, right hand column, and about almost all the way down we see,
"A natural gas, propane, or oil water heater that has
an energy factor of at least 0.80."
That's how I'm listing mine...
You guys beat me to it as long as the energy factor is .80 then it qualifies for the $300 credit. Looking at the product list its basically all the tankless gas fired water heaters.
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
There are other qualifications.Read them all..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Perhaps I was too kind in researching, cutting and pasting to make it easier for you to see the credit.
Now, perhaps, you be so kind to elaborate your point and list these other qualifications?
As several other caugth on the tax credit has expired..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
But mine was installed in November of last year. What other "qualifications" do I need?
Never seen one here in NC in residential... I'll ask some other builder types I know and my plumber...
Never heard of any rebates from the gas company either.... Seems like I'd probably know something about that since most all the homes I build get gas - I have a PSNC sales rep assigned to me - seems like she would have pushed that one on me.
Looked around the internet for pricing: prices starting around $800 for the smallest gas units, but start at more like $1000 for a house sized unit as compared to maybe $450 for a decent tanked water heater. It wasn't clear if the vent kits come with the tankless - they do come with the tanked. So, anyway, that's very roughly a $550 deficit on the purchase price...
And.... If there is a $300 tax credit that means you can take $300 off your taxable income - not that you pay $300 less in taxes? Right or wrong? So, the net savings might be more along the line of $100?
I wonder why the Energy Star building programs don't push these? - or at least the program here in NC doesn't...
MattA tax DEDUCTION reduces the taxable income, so the amount that you save is determined by your tax rate.A tax CREDIT means that it reduces your income taxes by that amount. It is a dollar for dollar replaces for the taxes you would have paid.However there is no tax credit on them.Some units can be installed outside with a freeze kit. I am not sure of the details, but I think that some fire the units for the short time that they might freeze and have a solenoid valve to dump water if the power fails. Of course that installation would only be applicable places where it does not feeze much.Venting can be a problem. Of course if it can be side wall vent directly behind the unit then that simplifies things. And some have a kit to also draw in combustion air.Gas can also be a problem for retrofits. They draw 150,000 to 250,000 BTU's. A tank type is about 40,000.I have "heard" that they need to be "demineralized" every 6-12 months. I wonder how many are people are going to do that and end up with poor performace..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
On the question as to why the tankless water heater fails imho...I have a two zone house the secondary zone supplies a kitchen sink, dishwasher, washing machine and half bath - all which are seldom used for hot.The water heater is ~4' directly below the sink/dishwasher. We only used the hot water for the dishwasher, the washing machine may use hot every other week.The water heater sat there for year after year with minimal use. When it failed I replace it with a tankless water heater. Being ~4 feet away from the dishwasher the water never heated adequately by the time the washer was filled. The secondary heater had to work to bring the temp up to design temp level in the washer (this caused an hour+ wash cycle).
I devised a procedure for my wife (yea she really loves it) start the hot water on the sink - let it run for a couple of gallons till it heats up then, without turning it off, start the dishwasher, waiting for the flow to decrease in the kitchen faucet before shutting off the faucet. For the washer - turn on the half bath hot faucet wait for a while and then turn on the hot water for the washing machine. Needless to say we only wash cold.The reason I used the multiple fixtures was to prime the system - getting hot water in the line close to the point of need and not shutting them off - or the cycle has to be repeated. After the hot water started to enter the needed fixture all secondary outlets are closed. The only reason to do this was to ensure we didn't have 8 gallons of cold water and 1 gallon of hot water in a washer.
That combined with the running two 8/3 lines to the TWH and the replumbing I did (which looks great) it turned it a real bust.Additionall, I read an article in one of the mech engr journals and it did a study of the electric and gas TWH and the conclusion was that there was no cost saving in using the TWH. I need to find it again and cite it.IMHO I think that we need to develop a system that is simple and cost effective but we aren't there yet. Kind of like the hybrid car, extrememly complicated (and soon to be a repair headache)and no significant savings in gas. Where they could buy something like a diesel Beetle and get 60 mpg on the interstate - which some of the people in our office achieve (simple and reliable). All we are doing now is trying to feel good about our attempts without evaluation of the outcomre.
Sounds as if your system needs a recirc pump under the sink with a manual switch on it.
Tankless units are and can be significant savers - IF the users understand what is going on and how to compensate.
And if they are properly installed.
It is installeted per manuf. specs., and is darn near to being a dedicated system.It is just as easy to run the water till it heats than it is to install recirc system and manual shut-offs.This goes back to my statement of the need for a simple system.
riversong makes a good point.
The 4 ft had nothing to do with your problems. The water does not heat in the pipe, only in the heater, whether it is tankless or tank.It sounds like you had too low of flow to trigger the tankless.It could have been a missadjusted or bad flow sensor in the heater. Or it might have been a problem in the DW or installation.
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
We had our gas fired tankless BOSCH in the garage right next to our washer and didn't notice the problems you are talking about. There is very little water stored in the heat exchanger in the tankless units about as much as there would be in the supply line if you had a tanked water heater a couple feet farther away...
Sounds like you have an electric TWH...
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
We've gotten off topic of my original question which was if y'all have been noticing tankless WH gaining in popularity like they seem to be here in SF bay area.
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
They're coming on strong in my part of NC. (We're a little to the left of Raleigh though) As far as de-scaling a water heater every 6 months I have hard water and use mine for radiant floor and haven't had to de-scale it or do any service to it at all in 5 years. I do have a grit filter on my well so I don't have t worry about the intake filter which I've seen clog up on some other units. I have a client with a four year old Rinnai that we had to de-scale this summer. We hooked up a little Taco 006 to a hose and sucked a gallon of white vinegar out of a 5 gallon bucket, through the water heater and back into the bucket through the pop-off valve for about 30 minutes and she ran good as new. Not all that big of a deal other than having to have a spare 006 in the shop, probably could have done it easier with a small sump pump but we stock 006's and 009's for radiant and solar work. M------------------
"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
Sorry to get off track, I know of only one other person that has a TWH. They used it on their tub (oversized) and after a couple years the had it removed and replace with a gas wh.
When I purchased mine two years ago I had to go through significant hurdles to find one, finally ending up having to special order it.
I just had this one installed. Not cheap. Installed by the first contractor I've hired in a while. Got shocked, but I've got a warm house. <G>
http://www.wallhungboilers.com/prod_baxi_condensing_330.html Mike
Trust in God, but row away from the rocks.
Thanks for the explanation on the tax stuff. I have a tax person so I guess I'm in ignorant bliss.
Hi Matt,
Energy star does push these units and LEEDH does also. You get more LEED points for installing a tankless WH than you do for a greywater recycling system!!!
$800 bucks? When I bought my BOSCH 125BS it was ~$600 from Home Depot they are still in that range. WIth the $300 tax credit that means you get to take $300 off the tax you owe to the feds so you do get the full $300 assuming you owe at least that much. At least thats my understanding of it...
I guess the local gas company rebates maybe are a CA thing. The tankless heaters are energy star qualified and the local gas company gives you a rebate (I think its $150) for installing one.
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Edited 1/25/2008 1:43 pm by madmadscientist
I looked through my energy star requirements and there was no mention of tankless WHs. Only tank units with various efficiency ratings. I don't know what LEED is - never heard of it.
OTOH, by those numbers you gave they sound very feasible. Do you know for a fact about the tax credit stuff? I'm getting conflicting stories...
And... how do you like the operation of your $600 Bosch? Next time I'm at the big box I'm gonna check into them.
BTW - hows the foundation project doing? What did you decide to do with the area outside the back basement door?
Edited 1/25/2008 8:34 pm ET by Matt
LEEDH is a green building for the residential market. The energy star doesnt say specifically tankless but the higest energy ratios are almost always only possible with the tankless gas WH.
We like the $600 bosch just fine there was two of us and it worked great. Couldn't take two showers at once but I've never lived anywhere where you could.
Unfortunately the tax credit appears to have expired end of 07 but lots of folks think its going to be reinstated PDQ lets hope so.
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
I installed one in my place, made by Bosch. Cost about $1,200 for the unit and the Ac2 vent kit, the vent pipe is stainless so it's not cheap. Locate the water heater as close to the venting location as possible.
I love it. Water is hot as long as you want. Takes about 40 seconds for it to get to the faucet but after that it's there for as long as you like.
Month later I installed a 90+ furnace as well, my gas bills are drastically lower, maybe 30%. Won't take long and I'll be breaking even.
The tax write offs for energy credits are weird, my accountant tried explaining them to me and I still didn't understand. All I understood is they are not as good as they say.
Woods favorite carpenter
I guess it's kinda hard to tell what savings is from the new furnace and what saving is from the tankless WH. Have you been through a summer with the tankless WH yet? I guess that would tell ya. Do you have any other gas appliances like dryer or range?
All: are the electric tankless WHs supposed to be extra energy efficient too?
I have both installed for about a year and a half.
My gas bills are lower in summer and winter. Summer by about 12-15%. Which equates to about $10-15 a month. Winter is much more due to it being colder in the basement. Maybe $50 a month.
I am comparing this winters bills to the previous years with my old furnace WH setup.
I have a gas dryer and stove as well. Our habits using those haven't changed.
With my basement being unheated the old water heater was always reheating water that we weren't using. It was a no brainer for me when I actually thought about it.
The buy in is a little steep, 3x the price of a power vent and almost 5x the price of a regular tanked unit.
Bosch claims that with their unit it doesn't have a tank and will outlast those that rely on tanks. Other words, won't rust out like tanked units, at least not as soon. If it has a doubled life span than a tanked unit I will be more than happy with my purchase, I already am.
My old furnace was an 80% eff. unit, so the upgrade wasn't huge. It vented out a chimney, I need that chimney gone for a set of stairs I am going to build. So the HWH and the furnace had to be vented out a sidewall. Now I am glad I did seeing my bills are lower.
Woods favorite carpenter
i installed the biggest bosch gas tankless to replace two 30 gallon gas tank heaters that were 20 years old in my ex-wife's home last year. with 3 people living in the house, she says her gas bill dropped $25-$30 right away. tankless will be one of the changes I make on my own home as i renovate.
You just added $600 to the price of the next house I build for my wife and I. Proud of yourself? :-)
Sorry Matt
Your savings may not match mine, keep that in mind.
You have a more moderate climate. No cold basement like here. At 50 degrees the water gets cold in the tank pretty quick.
I watched my pilot for a while one day. I was folding some laundry. It kicked on almost every 10 minutes. That helped me make up my mind. Woods favorite carpenter
Most houses here don't even have basements. Since our footers only go 12" deep, it makes a lot more excavation necessary... I think maybe the local mentality is that basements are just a place where a bunch of stuff is stored that one doesn't need anyway...
As far as a cold 50 degree basement being a bad thing.... dats nothin... Here, a lot of HW heaters are installed either in the (unheated) garage or in attached sheds. People around here are not very energy conscious at all. True our climate is milder, but I just looked at the temp and it's 24f right now - burrr! Almost every presale home I do I offer R-38 attic insulation rather than the standard R-30 - it's usually only around $200 for most houses - some things I'll give at cost... I'd say 1 out of 20 people want it - the other 19 would rather have a little more crown molding...
Tankless
expensive to buy (architechs love them - adds cost - put two on many homes around here bigger arch fee
ugly mounted outside- complicated
needs an expert to fix them
then hope he has the parts on a saturday afternoon
no parts at lows or the hardware storeand they save how much?
They save 30% on gass over the tanked units is what I've read.
You bring up good points about parts availability.. But really they aren't that hard to work on. On my bosch I've had the cover off and dropped the heating coil to descale it and I could probalby replace any part needed....trouble shooting what's wrong might be tougher till I get used to it...
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
The insulation package you offer should be a no brainer. Especially at cost.
But thats a sign of the times, bells and whistles with not alot of thought to function.
I could get to love your footings, those could be dug with a square nose shovel.
48" here and it takes up most of the handle of a post hole digger for deck posts. Woods favorite carpenter
"I watched my pilot for a while one day. I was folding some laundry. It kicked on almost every 10 minutes. That helped me make up my mind."
Curious, did you have an insulating jacket on that tank?
It was just a standard HWH, with insulation inside the unit.
10 minutes may be a bit short but it was under 15 minutes. I wasn't timing it, just realized how often I heard the burner fire up. Woods favorite carpenter
Remember though that the tankless units are supposed to last at least as long as two regular tanked units. All the interior guts are replaceable so theoretically you will never need to buy another unit...
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
No the electric tankless are not considered 'green' as they suck up a huge amount of juice to heat the water. Juice that was probably produced by burning nat gas.
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Matt, a couple questions if you don't mind.1) Where you are (or in general if you know), does a regular plumber install these or does he have to have any additional certifications?2) Is the $1,200 installed, complete, out the door, part and labor or was that just the parts and you installed it?3) Regarding the vent kit..is that a direct vent (for both intake and exhaust) just to the outside? Or does it have to go up the wall and past the roof also? (That would be a LOT of stainless depending on if you're in the basement, and have a 2 story house, etc)James
As far as I know they don't need any additional certifications. Haven't heard that they do either.
The $1200 is for the HWH and the vent kit only ( I did the install so free labor). The vent kit was $275 if I remember right. Pretty high for 2 elbows, a straight piece of pipe and two wall boots. Other parts were needed but I included those with the PEX plumbing I installed at the same time.
You need to buy a big brass T for the pop off valve to be mounted underneath the tank. THen PEX or what ever piping you have ties into that. The pop off was included with the water heater.
I had a plumber give me a price before I decided to do it myself. $2500 installed Norritz unit. Too much for my tastes.
I vented mine through my rim joist of my house. I located the unit between two floor joists and shot the pipes straight out the wall. This was the deciding factor for the final location of my HWH. Any other place and I would've needed another $300 in stainless vent parts.
I built a wall for it, recessed a few studs so it fit tighter against the foundation wall. Its mounted high enough so 1 elbow and a straight piece of pipe was all that I needed of the vent kit. This put me about 15 feet from the kitchen sink my farthest plumbing fixture.
I put the intake of my HWH in the house, it draws all the air it needs. The vent kit also comes with a stainless flex pipe for the intake. I believe that it is about 25' long. I couldn't get my exhaust and intake pipes far enough away from each other so I left my intake inside.
Woods favorite carpenter
As far as venting as long as you live in a non-hard freezing enviroment you can mount the unit on the exterior wall of the house or now they have these nice 'boxes' for them were they are still direct vented but you don't see them.
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Yes that is acceptable, the installation instructions include that method of installation.
I'm just giving my experience with them. Your situation and others will be different.
Very easy install, but they are picky. Should have been able to plug it in and get hot water but that wasn't my case. I posted a question here and I belive Bill Hartman replied to that as well.
I had to reset a trouble code, theres a button for that, and missed it in the instructions. Woods favorite carpenter
I can easily see where they save money in the long run. Everything in my house is gas. I love it during a hurricane but hate it most of the year when the bills come in. We pay the most I believe than elsewhere in the country and we get it here. I love cooking on the gas. Our generator is gas also, dryer, waterheater, dryer.
I did take our home heat off gas when one year they got me for two months at $400+ in a gas bill. Just happened to go up on rates during the cold months here. A bunch of bs IMO.
I did get the gas company to come out and talk to me about the tankless system. They wanted about $1000 for the system then another $1000 to put it in! I kindly led him to the door! Maybe when I have a couple grand laying around I'll get him back out.
“Some people wonder all their lives if they've made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem.” Reagan....
Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor. -Truman Capote
We installed a 199K BTU Rheem in our house and we're happy with it as well. Because of its location, we were waiting about 30-40 seconds in the bathroom and 60 or more seconds in the kitchen to get hot water. Aside from the wait, I felt stupid washing that much water down the drain.
The other day I got around to installing a D'mand pump from Metlund. It's mounted under the kitchen sink (the farthest plumbing from the water heater) and recirculates water from the hot line back through the cold line until it senses a temperature rise (in our case about 20 seconds). There is a hardwired button at the kitchen sink, plus a wireless remote in the bathroom, either of which activate the pump. They also have a fancier setup that ties the remote activation into a motion sensor.
Here's a link to the manufacturer's website: http://www.gothotwater.com/D'MAND/how.asp
Disclaimer:
I live in a cold state, my water heater was in my basement. It had to constantly reheat the water in the tank that we used. Basement stays around 55 degrees year round.
Thats one of the reasons I'm saving money on gas bills, the water heater is not reheating water all the time. Now it's heated as we need it.
Being that you live in CA the tankless may not impact your bills as it did with mine. No cold basement issues in your case.
Woods favorite carpenter