I know of all the pros and cons of using either paper tape or fiberglass
mesh in drywall finishing. However, I have always wondered which is
stronger or less likely to allow cracks to transmit through to the
surface. Has there ever been a scientific study to determine the answer to this question?
Replies
I don't ever use mesh.
I'm not aware of any studies.
I use paper on new drywall installs. I use mesh on drywall repair jobs, and on backer board.
Per instructions on the roll, mesh tape is to be used with a setting type mud. If you use Durabond, it won't crack and will hold like glue.You get out of life what you put into it......minus taxes.
Marv
FG MESH is stronger and is more likely to show you the hairline cracks
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
FG tape may be stronger but it will move on the bias causing cracksIt does have it's uses I suppose but I only use paper tape when dry-wallingI know others that only use FG tapeI have never read a true study
I suppose it was a mistake, but with a crew of inexperienced volunteers for Katrina relief, after mudding and taping for three days and having to go back several times to re-do other's work where they didn't bed the paper tape, and we were running out of time--painters were standing at my elbow like little kids in a car "are we there yet?"--and I told the usually non-repsonsive crew leader, "Don't ever let them use paper tape ever again!" And for once he listened and they used mesh tape from then on.
The probelm too with mesh (besides allowing cracks), in that humidity, you'd go in and a quarter of the tape was peeling off the walls and almost every piece on the ceilings was dangling. I guess there's no way to win! On one job, a crew from another church taped the walls and painted--then a stripe half way up the dining room wall and the full length let go. That really set us back! (They were so eager to paint that they drywalled, taped and mudded the walls before they put any drywall on the ceilings!)
I kind of like the self-stick paper tape, with large holes in it. It's more expensive than either of the alternatives, and I'm sure that purists turn up their nose at it, but you can apply it before mudding and the mud takes real well. And no loose hairs like the FG tape.But in my (somewhat limited) experience I've never had FG tape fail, other than the loose hairs.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
I've seen paper tape more often peel loose hours after application. Bedding it is an art, and too much mud beneath or too little will result in separation.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
On another job down in Bayou La Battre (the other one I spoke of was in Gulf Springs), they had some paper tape and some guys I thought I had trained to do better, used it and primed the walls. It wasn't till we hit it with top coat that the tape started lifting and blistering, mostly at corners. As always, we were in a hurry, so I put some adhesive caulk under it with a knife blade and mashed it flat and that seemed to work--at least until we left the next day.
I must confess, I had some of my paper taped corners lift in a couple spots. The pro who was with us made a big deal about my poor taping job, but although tape should never lift, I didn't think it was too bad that in several rooms of taping over the course of two weeks, I had two three-inch long pieces lift at one edge. I lost count, but in the first day, IIRC, I used up three five gallon buckets of mud and probably used 2 on all the days except the last two days where I painted.
That was the job where the drywall hangers left 1-2" gaps in corners and between sheets. I hot mudded where I could, but ran out and no one wanted to get more. It was like pulling teeth to get them to buy buckets of mud. Several times I almost ran out of mud before someone would reluctantly climb in a car and go buy me another bucket, like they were doing me personally a big favor.
Since I've been grousing about that job, I will say that I felt really good when one of the college young ladies I had been training came up to me on her last day and thanked me for taking the time and effort to train her--and she was good (probably better than me, but not nearly as fast, and speed is of the essence on such jobs). They'd send young people to me to train, and at first I thought, "I can't take timeout to train these people, I've got too much work to do!"
But I found that after a half hour of showing them stuff and then checking back with them every few minutes to re-explain something or correct something they hadn't quite gotten, I could tuirn them loose and most could at least do a credible job of first coating, and two could do anything I could do, only perhaps better (but, as I said, slower). Anyway, that was a pretty rewarding experience, despite the battles with the people from my own church. (I later asked what the crew leaders had done before retirement--thinking they had been GC's or in the trades--nope, one was a retired toxicologist who had a lab, the other did wiring for Bell South!)
Just to stir the pot ....
Just watched some Union guys tape. They used mesh on (some) outside corners, but joints, and patching, and the paper on inside cormers.
"they used . . . the paper on inside cormers"
'cause you only need two coats of mud for an inside corner and the paper in the corner isn't covered -- it's just bedded and then the edges are feathered. If you use mesh, you gotta cover the whole corner with mud so the tape doesn't show -- a skill I never developed well enough to allow me to make a decent mesh inside corner without endless fussing.Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PAEverything fits, until you put glue on it.
Hi,
We are doing carpenty, mostly flooring and dry-walling.
In Germany the carpenters do the drywalling, except big objects, where "real" drywallers work. Over here, the mudding is left to the painters on most occasions, because too often they had complained about the quality- additional sanding, another coat a.s.f.
Because this would cost us, we gave up this fight. Leave it to the painters.
Now, what they do:
2 courses of mud, sanding with a "giraffe" sander, and then they would cover the whole surface with glass-fibre fleece,without structure, then paint. Costly, but very effective against complaints from cracking seams.
Also, except in very angly situations I only use steel framing for walls, even ceilings. No more complaints from door hangers, and the finicky tile setters. Even though I prefer wood in my hands, steel is much faster and more reliable- thus cheaper in the long run.
Opinion though.
Greetings,
Mathias
I've fallin in love with these
View Image
either the inside or outside corner beads. metal corners with paper tape edges.
yep, and these:View Image
Paper-covered metal corner tape is for outside corners; the metal protects the corner from dings and whacks. My favourite brand is Fibatape; comes in 100-foot rolls.
For inside corners, the metal's unnecessary (who dings the inside of a corner??).
Try Straitflex for inside corners instead. You will love it. Especially for ceiling joints.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
There are plenty of places for the steel flex nocaot tapes on inside corners. I'm in process of using 200 feet right now. Here at BT while a coat dries.! - it is a faster finish when under a tight schedule2 - it is good where remo work leaves a large gap on the inside corner of the SR that would otherwise require pullinbg off more existing and adding another studd for a nailer. It does not need as much of a sound backing3 - where you have inside angles other than a 90° like a raised trey ceiling or the upper floors of a cape wall/ceiling joint, it is easier and better to get a straight joint.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
It works but way too expensive and unnecessary.
Do a simple test..take a piece of mesh and a piece of paper tape. Pull apart each tape at it's width..which one will fall part? When spackling (finishing), temperature and humidity must be taken into consideration..too cold or too humid for paper tape is a problem, but of course never paper tape under 55 degrees nor 85% or above in humidity.I never ever use mesh tape and never had a problem with all purpose mud and paper tape; of course for the past 5 years I have only been using Wet & Stick adhesive paper tape.The adhesive tape with the holes..tried it once and never again. On the inside corners when taping the mud comes thru and then coating the angle again you have to scrape off the mud from the holes otherwise the dried mud gets into your mud...major problem.
I don't do a lot of taping, but I've done enough to know a couple things: mesh tape definitely has a greater chance of showing cracks down the road, especially on a taperered edge joint. I do not use mesh on tapered joints anymore for that reason. Since a tapered joint also happens to be the easiest joint to use paper in, I go with plain paper there now. Also, I think that the adhesive paper tape with the holes in it is garbage (and it doesn't matter what brand you use) - often times the tape will begin to lift off the wall when you start applying compound on top of it. That leaves you with little hollows where the tape is no longer andhered to the wall. You wind of having to put a thicker coat of mud on top of it to hide the bumps where it lifted. And finally, use a premium tape for your corners. Unless you're building the Taj Mahal, the extra $10 for some good tape is not going to kill you. I personally use the metal backed paper tape for all my corners, inside and out, and it always comes out nice. Plain paper tape can be a real pain on inside corners for folks that aren't good with the stuff (including myself!). The metal backed tape is nice and stiff and doesn't wrinkle up on you when you're bedding it in. That's my two cents.
I hear what you're saying, but I find that Strait-Flex does all that as well or better than paper/metal.
If you're not familiar with Strait-Flex, it's a very tough fibre tape a bit thicker than paper, with a rolled-in crease. Bend it, and it'll stand out straight for 8 feet or better in the air. It never wrinkles, and takes any kind of compound you like perfectly. More importantly, if you drag the trowel a bit too hard in the corner, the tape won't shred like paper. It's really a dream to work with.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
I see. Same basic idea, just diff material
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
The only time I usually see cracks in the paper taped walls in my house is when the framing is moving behind the sheetrock. If the framing is moving, the wall will show cracks. Fix the framing and many times the cracks will go away.
Commercially I've done a few high rise rock jobs in NYC and always saw the tapers use paper. This could be motivated by price and speed rather than quality. Paper can be used to hide a number of errors temporarily because the paper hides the joint. I know some guys that have admitted using it for that very reason, and have seen under plastered joints that peel off after a couple year. The joint is not hidden with mesh, I think it keeps the taper more honest.
I personally use mesh, but if install correctly both mesh and paper seem to work fine. Sometimes the tapers aren't even to blame for cracked drywall. The lumber could have moved due to seasonal changes or could have been installed wet and then dried. Too few drywall screws could have been used to hang the board, or worse, nails. They're guaranteed to cause a crack, especially on a ceiling.
Don't worry so much about the scientific studies. Life, and buildings for that matter, does not occur in a neatly monitored vacuum. There is not replacement for experience.
Most every thing talked about here is operator error or the wrong product chosen.
All the products we ave to day are superior to any thing in the past.
You asked a two hooked baited question.
Is mesh tape stronger? Youre kidding right ?
The cracks that develope in mesh tape are hair line cracks but they are from filling deep voids. If the joint is given sufficient coats and the right products are chosen there wont be a problem.
Hot mud and mesh is the strongest bond but it needs finishing and hot mud is not the product for that .
Tim
My first taping experience was with mesh and all purpose compound. As you can imagine, it was a complete nightmare. I had no experiance and a developed the "thick mud, extra sanding" technique that inexperianced finishers often use. I work with guys now that have been in the trades for twenty years or more and still use this philosophy!
I developed my own technique later where I dipped paper tape in a bucket of water before I embedded it. The tape bonds really well, but you only get a couple of really good passes with the knife before you start pulling off the top layer of the paper tape. I still use it on tricky joints, but dont put as much of a bedding coat on so that I have less knife time. My dad told me that when he helped the finishers at his renovation, his job was the tape dipper. I guess I hadn't pioneered the perfect technique like I thought I had.
As someone stated before, there are alot of factors to contend with and fighting you for the perfect finish: temperature, humidity, good wallboard installation, knife size, compound mix, and of course, tapes. Both tapes have their place. Both tapes can produce I nice crack-free joint of used with the right technique. A "super" tape or mud wont make up for poor technique. I'm not calling myself a master finisher by any means, I'm humbled enought to know that like with most other aspects of renovation and building, I've still got a long way to go and a lot to learn, but I'm getting there.
I’m one of those pervs who actually reads the directions sometimes. US Gypsum has their over-500-page Construction Handbook available as a pdf, available online.I’ve quoted it here before in a glue/no glue thread (USG says glue your board), and I figure I might as well do what the manufacturer says. But that’s just me.I have a 30-year old paperback version that makes no mention of “leno-weave” (read “gauze-weave”) v. “cross-fiber” tapes. My Handbook just says paper for drywall, fiberglas for plaster.Here are the sections in the current Handbook dealing with product suitability:"Two products — both quickly and easily applied —
are available for specialized uses: paper tape for treatment with joint compounds; glass-fiber tape for veneer plaster finishes. Repeated joint strength tests conducted at the USG Research Center
have shown that joints taped and finished with conventional fiberglass leno-weave mesh tape and conventional joint compounds are more prone to cracking than joints finished with paper tape and conventional joint compounds. This is because fiberglass mesh tapes tend to stretch under load,even after being covered with joint compounds. Permanent repair of these cracks is difficult. Accordingly,USG does not recommend using conventional fiberglass leno-weave mesh tape with conventional ready-mixed, powder or chemically setting compounds for general drywall joint finishing. SHEETROCK Brand Fiberglass Drywall Tape Made with a unique cross-fiber construction to provide greater drywall joint strength than conventional fiberglass leno-weave mesh tapes. This self-adhesive tape goes on quickly, eliminating the bedding coat. Smooth, finished joints are accomplished in two coats by using SHEETROCK Brand Setting-Type Joint Compound (DURABOND or EASY SAND)for at least the first application. The setting-type joint compound also provides the added bond to provide desired joint strength. Second SHEETROCK Brand Joint Compound application can be either setting-type or drying-type (ready-mixed or powder) joint compound. Tape also is ideal for patching small holes and cracks."So there you have it, folks. AitchKay
First thing you have to ask yourself is why you are wanting to use hot mud or fiber glass tape. I would have to agree with the site except somtimes I have to make a living . Basically they dont guarentee the mesh or hot mud on regualar drywall period.
Pros get around it because they know what works . Theres people out there that with no training that will tape with fiberglass tape and mud it with liteweight mud . Thats a disaster. They did it because they were ignornant or lazy. USG wont back it so they include all disclaimers I figgure.
You can tape with mesh although theres no reason to I can think of except if its a hole in the wall. Kind of like a patch kit type of thing . People do it that cant run paper tape normally which takes some experience to be efficient handling mud. Theres no real other reason to use mesh tape on the whole job.
You can tape with hard setting hot mud and paper tape and provide a bed on loose fitting drywall . Then 1rst coat with USG joint compound , then finish with liteweight mud with no problems as long as the applications are clean.
Yeah, I'm rarely taping a job big enough to make drying-type mud economical. Hot mud is always at least my first coat, usually the second, too.The biggest quality boost that hot mud can give is with corner bead. I'll admit I haven't worked much at all with the new beads, spray adhesive, etc.But there's no question that THE most bombproof corner is made with metal expanded-mesh bead, with old-fashioned Durabond (not EZ Sand) for the first coat. Work the mud into and through the mesh before giving it that smoothing wipe with the knife, and that corner will never crack.I've done commercial work where a heavily-loaded cart left a 1/2" deep dent in the bead, but nothing cracked. With drying-type mud, you'll often see a floor-to-ceiling crack appear, and you really can't fix those.I probably use hot mud too much, though. Using bucket mud for the 3rd and touch-up coats means that a bucket will last forever, and often go bad, even though I use a rubber kitchen scraper and a sponge to wipe down the sides. So I often end up sanding EZ Sand, which is a lot harder.I should probably just count on using only half of every bucket I buy, give it away to my big-job taper, etc, and write it off as part of a job well done.AitchKay