In building my detached addition I’m running new telephone lines in to it. It’s four floors and I’m putting 2 jacks on each floor. I’ve got the lines – cat5e – pretty much run floor to floor and running back into the house.
I’ve seen ‘phone guys’ come in and just pop a plate onto the wall and pull the line through. So I’m wondering if I actually need to put standard electrical boxes with the phone lines in them just like a light switch box? or do I just leave the lines resting in the stud bays and then pull them out through a whole in the drywall as it goes on. Anyone know the proper way of doing this?
Thanks!
Replies
Use a low voltage box, like this...
Use the low voltage boxes like ChrisL said.
It would be "legal" and code compliant to just poke a hole in the wall and pull a waiting phone line through but that does not provide a good place to attach the jack / cover plate - forces the use of drywall anchors -- the low voltage box provides a good anchor point for the plates.
I did not follow ChrisL's link, but low voltage boxes are available in either a pre-drywall install style or as an open backed, old work style.
I like the old work, post-drywall install type (one less hole to cut when hanging drywall and one less to paint around).
Jim
It's called, "structured wiring."
If you want to hang on to old, really old, technology, do the job as you indicate.
If you wish to make your addition modern and able to be upgraded easily, you'll use "homeruns" to a distribution panel.
Such as: http://www.smarthome.com/30632/Elk-Structured-Wiring-Box-with-Transformer-and-Continuous-Current-Power-Supply-Elk-P112/p.aspx
Search around this site for other products and applications.
Hi newbuilder,
I use the typical blue box used for electrical when doing new construction, run my wire into it, gently coil up the excess in the back of the box, no hard bends anywhere, staple it to the studwork and foam the back of the box on exterior walls. Avoid any high voltage wires by 14" or more or you risk adding noise to your phones, hummmm. If you must cross high voltage wiring, do so perpendicular.
Run each wire back to a central termination point. Wiring into a ready made box is nice but you can make your own in an interior wall by simply boxing it out with scrap wood and putting a basic cabinet door over it when the drywall is finished. If you are going to use a phone "system" or internet with any of this cabling, don't forget to put an electrical outlet inside of the box as far from the phone/network wiring as possible.
Questions?
Pedro the Mule - Even my stall is wired for phone and internet
As of late last night I already have the wires all in, running from the outsids-the-house main box into the addition and running up floor by floor. I also have lines branching out to other jacks from the first one on each floor in ASSUMING that one can 'leg off' with this Cat5 wire similarly to electical 12-2.
Someone mentioned boxes in the wall but without the need to cut out drywall in installing. I don't see how this works unless the boxes are placed flush with the wall(?) and then covered over and cut into later?
As for avoiding contact with electrical lines: does this mean that it is really essential to dis-allow contact between the Cat5 and insulated 12-2wg circuitry? I HAVE utilized a few wholes that electrical lines had fed through and that still had enough room to thread the cat5 through. I had understood that the cat5 line was pretty immune to interference from other lines!
Thanks!
It won't kill anyone if you run Cat-5 through the same holes in the joists as regular romex. Better to avoid this, but sometimes it's the best pragmatic solution to wire routing.You can "leg off" Cat-5 for phone wiring, but not for ethernet. For ethernet each outlet must be a "home run".
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
Thanks a lot, Dan. Much appreciated.
I'm sure I'll have to keep the questions coming!
thanks again.
A~
Dan,
FYI, the NEC requires at least 2" of separation between line voltage and and low voltage communications wiring. Why? To prevent any high-energy pulse (as in lightning strike or powerr line cross) from going from the line voltage to the other.
It used to be that the inspectors around here allowed line and comm wiring to run in the same holes through framing, but they've been enforcing the separation requirement for a couple of years now.
Cliff
I still can't find that 2" separation thing in the NEC (alternately reported as being 8" or even a foot), where is it?
fret,
800.133(A)(2)
Jim x 3
Thanks, jimjimjim.
Cliff
OK let's read that together;
Note Exception 1.(2) Other Applications. Communications wires and cables shall be separated at least 50 mm (2 in.) from conductors of any electric light, power, Class 1, non–power-limited fire alarm, or medium-power network-powered broadband communications circuits.Exception No. 1: Where either (1) all of the conductors of the electric light, power, Class 1, non–power-limited fire alarm, and medium-power network-powered broadband communications circuits are in a raceway or in metal-sheathed, metal-clad, nonmetallic-sheathed, Type AC, or Type UF cables, or (2) all of the conductors of communications circuits are encased in raceway.Exception No. 2: Where the communications wires and cables are permanently separated from the conductors of electric light, power, Class 1, non–power-limited fire alarm, and medium-power network-powered broadband communications circuits by a continuous and firmly fixed nonconductor, such as porcelain tubes or flexible tubing, in addition to the insulation on the wire.Cable jackets and raceways ARE separation.
Fret,
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No one else has posted here, so let me add my 2 cents.
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As a matter of policy I run low voltage wiring through holes separate from romex. And I try to maintain a 12” separation as well to minimize interference. But I often find the need to run limited sections within 12” (and rarely short portions within 2”) and I have done this without degradation of signals through CAT5E cable.
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I have read and re-read section 800.133. My reading of exception 1 part 1 is that the insulation/separation called for refers only to the “high voltage” side of the issue (or to conduit containing it), not to the communications wire or cable (the CAT5E). And since non-metallic sheathing is acceptable under that exception, then the required 2” separation would not apply for romex and CAT5E.
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But the AHJ doesn’t always see it that way – so the path of least resistance is to maintain the 2”. Especially since if the inspector points out the <2“ ‘contact point’, it’s invariably in the middle of a long CAT5E home run and the romex is of course already clamped in place with grounds made up.
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BTW, I enjoy your posts. Thanks.
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Jim x 3
That's why I prefer being an inspector to being the EC. I can argue with the AHJ ;-)We even have a forum or two to do it in. Prior to the inspector gig I was hardware support for a big corporation that sold business machines internationally and I had the opportunity to test a lot of these cabling myths and most are bogus with the new technology. In our shop I had a LAN run with a couple hundred feet of cable, mixing Cat 5 to IBM type 1 and back to CAT 5 using baluns. I did every "wrong" thing anyone could come up with. We had coils of wire on top of fluorescent ballasts, tywrapped to the MV building feeder raceway, looped around a PC tower a couple times and running right next to a big TV. I never saw any errors in the logs. We really used it for TDR training and you could see things on the scope but it didn't break the LAN. Token Ring was more resilient than Ethernet. The toughest was Twinax and that is the one that normally uses the best hardware. We were running on this devil's mix of wire with a bunch of baluns. It is only 2meg tho.
The worst thing you can do is kink or pinch the Cat 5. That shows up on the TDR as a Huge spike and if you kink it tight enough you can start generating errors. Tie an overhead knot on it and pull that tight, you will bring the LAN to it's knees. It will be resending packets a couple times each to get them through. It still works but it is S L O W.
Yeah, I didn't have any fancy test equipment like a TDR (fun tool!) but when I started working with ethernet wiring I did several tests like intertwine a Cat-5 with a power cable, to see if I could force errors. Never did. Only time I ever saw even twin-ax screw up was when the length limit was exceeded -- you almost literally couldn't go a foot beyond the stated limit without totally losing connectivity.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
We did TDR with a scope. You basically just use the B trigger out as a signal generator fed into the line with a BNC "T" into a Cat5 > BNC balun and watch the reflection. It has to be a pretty fast scope since you are looking at stuff in the 150-200ns range but a 465 or 485 Tek will do great.
We had a regulation HP TDR unit in college. You could take about 50 feet of coax, string it out on the floor, and tell from the scope how far down its length someone was kinking the wire.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
We had the scopes everywhere so buying a dedicated box would be redundant.
If you had the DM44 attachment on the 485 you could dial down to the glitch and get the reading in feet, right on the display once you got it set up.
I haven't had easy access to a scope in about 30 years. The old Tectronix scopes we used back then were pretty advanced for their time, but it's very doubtful whether they were fast enough for TDR.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
Regarding your remark on 'kinking' the Cat 5e ... I noticed in the installation that I'm currently doing that at one point one of the primary Cat lines was kinked pretty badly. I untwisted/unkinked it and proceeded with the stringing of it. But it had been kinked/pinched I would say 'semi-severely'. Do you think that this is a line that I shoiuld pull out and re-do? Or can a really tight kink that has been pulled on be UNkinked and straightened out and have it be fine???
Thanks -
If you can get the kink out and roll it round again it is usually OK. You just need to restore the geometry in the cable.
Yeah, that would be my take.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
OK, that's a new one. My copy of the NEC is about 20 years old.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
Dude! Time to get thee to Graybar to pick up a 2008 version!
Graybar stamps their name on the cover and knocks $20 (or is it $30) off the price.
Cliff
Hi newbuilder,
As for avoiding contact with electrical lines: does this mean that it is really essential to dis-allow contact between the Cat5 and insulated 12-2wg circuitry? I HAVE utilized a few wholes that electrical lines had fed through and that still had enough room to thread the cat5 through. I had understood that the cat5 line was pretty immune to interference from other lines!
Cat 5 utilizes "balanced" shielding not "circumference grounded" shielding. Running the cabling next to your electric wiring "will" produce some level of noise. How much depends on several factors. The more load you have on a line the more noise induced. That same load running through 14-2 vs. 12-2 will produce more noise. Motors produce more noise. Flourescent ballasts create more noise. Transformers create more noise. How much will you hear?....depends on how sensitive your hearing is and how much of what type of load is running. It has the "potential" to be loud enough that it makes a conversation difficult, rare but possible.
It's a pain to have to run new cables once the drywall is up but it's your house. Keep in mind that branching phone circuits off in series will not work with pbx phone systems. We use that type of system because it is the most convenient to place calls, transfers calls and as much as anything it makes a fantastic intercom. The way you have ran branch circuits is old school for this very reason but in and of itself there is nothing "wrong" with it.
The higher the voltage the more noise generally. Experience - recently cabled out a new office for a client. Had all my stuff neatly ran and clipped at proper intervals etc. Fire signal guy comes behind me and uses "my" network tie down clips to clip his 24v fire signal wire in. Ceiling guy comes behind him and buttons everything up. Two weeks later I prepping cable terminations and testing each drop to ensure it would be ready for the move. Dag nab it, everyone of those rascals was picking up some sort of interferance, best Cat "6" $ can buy. 12 hours later, billed to the client, I had all the fire guys stuff routed like it should have been, turkey was too cheap and too lazy to install his cable right so I ended up behind on my job, yeah got paid for it but the client was put behind on his move.
I repeat, there will be noise, it's all a matter of how much and can you tolerate what it ends up being?
Pedro the Mule - I got enough noise wrattlin' around in my head without havin' to add more
there is a plate called a wall caddy that has metal tabs you bend back around the drywall after cutting out the opening.it can mount cable and phone plates.supply house them
You don't need a box (unless your local BI has a bug up his arse about something). If surface-mounted is fine with you, just poke a hole in the wall. Otherwise you can use a regular electrical box or one of the open-back boxes designed for low-voltage wiring. (But remember, it IS a violation of code to use the SAME box for both low-voltage and 120V wiring.)
If you don't put the wires in a box, be sure to staple the wire to the side of the joist at a known height, and mark on the floor where it is. Otherwise you could end up punching several holes in the wall to find the wire.
(Not a bad idea to mark the floor for regular outlets as well, as they often get "disappeared" by drywallers.)
"But remember, it IS a violation of code to use the SAME box for both low-voltage and 120V wiring."Without a divider.There are boxes that will accept both. And there are boxes where you can add a divider.And there are 1/2 boxes that you graft onto the side of a 120 box for the LV stuff..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
Right. But you'll not find the divided boxes in most big box stores, and there's really no point to them in residential wiring.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
I am not sure, but I seem to remember seening the dividers that you can add to some Carlon boxes and/or the separate "doghouses" that you can add on the side of the regular boxes for LV wiring..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
Not true. We used divided boxes all the time in kitchen installs. Phone jack in one side, outlet to plug the phone in on the other. Nobody uses all mount phone anymore. They are all cordless and sit on the counter. Similar for the tv's that everyone wants in their kitchens now days. Also, AV guys use them all the time as well for running AV cables to the same box as the electric for their receivers and TV's. The boxes we use and dividers usually come from depot since they are alot easier to deal with than the suppler.
(But remember, it IS a violation of code to use the SAME box for both low-voltage and 120V wiring.)
Dan (or Bill, or anyone else with knowledge of electrical codes)
I have several enclosures around the house that contain both 120 and 24v. One is a relay that controls my air compressor with two switches on the LV side. The other two are indication panels for ventilation. These are enclosure boxes, but both 120 and LV are in them. Is this illegal?
The air compressor set up was put together by some electricians, the indication panels I designed and built 15 years ago.
And how do components, such as air handlers and heat pumps/furnaces comply with this, as both 120 and 24 v wires are located in each?
Thanks"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." Invictus, by Henley.
The ideal situation is to have the relay built on a plate such that the high voltage connections are on one side an the low voltage on the other. Or like your classical doorbell transformer where the HV connections are wires passing through a conduit connector, to be attached to the side of a box, leaving the LV wiring outside. But generally the code gives a pass to "listed" appliances (such as an AC condenser unit) where the manufacturer has installed the wiring (or at least instructed where it's to be installed). Basically UL has their own standards for all of this, and if they're met then the NEC is happy.And I vaguely recall there's a general exemption for LV wiring that's wholly contained in the HV enclosure -- for indicator lights, eg.The hazard being protected against is the HV getting crossed over into the LV wiring, and from there the high voltage/current being conducted to somewhere else where it can do damage or cause bodily harm.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
Thanks"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." Invictus, by Henley.
One of the best ways to terminate is to use the LV boxes as indicated and the Leviton 'QuickPort' (or similar) system. You can terminate any combination of LV wires in one standard box and snap in multiple jacks into the faceplate - RJ6, RJ22, 45, fiber optic etc. etc. Change the faceplate at will, etc.
http://www.levitonproducts.com/catalog/dept_id_238.htm
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You can get combo line/low voltage faceplates for divided two-gang boxes:
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Sold at HDepot although often not the full selection.
Jeff
Edited 8/7/2009 8:21 am ET by Jeff_Clarke
THANKS for the info.
A~
In building my detached addition
So whats that, a seperate house?
Mike
What's a telephone line? ; ^ )
Will Rogers
Same as a line in a bar, only you don't have to worry about getting slapped.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz