We’ve all had the situation when the needs of the customer cannot enhance your reputation.
Honestly, I should have realized there would be a problem when the “customer” insisted that as he is a property manager, only essential and fast calls should go on to his cell. I already know he is not going to pay MY going rate.
So I go and see his “job”. It’s a pre-made mantle <http://www.thefinishingtouch.com/mantelfireplace.htm>,the “Vancouver, which he wants to put on the wall, except the wall makes a sharp turn away from the edge of the mantle ensuring a gap of 3/8”. He proposes I shim the other side so the gap on both ends would be equal and then caulk the resulting gap.
As I’m feeling the walls for the telltale bump of the studs, he is getting very nervous about the possibility I will mark the wall. (I was feeling where the mantle would hide the marks)
After about 4 minutes of this, I told him I would not sign my name to this project, the caulk would shrink and it would look terrible. I left. Someone else was waiting outside to see the job. I bet he took it.
Quality repairs for your home.
Aaron the Handyman
Vancouver, Canada
Replies
When the probable outcome is below your standards and reputation it is time to bow out as gracefully as possible. IMHO you did the right thing.
Wow ... so he had scheduled two contractors back to back. Surprised he didn't do a cattle call inspection and bid.
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
Man Aaron, I'm surprised he didn't have the mudder standing there to throw some mud at it after all was done.......................
Good on you to walk.............................
"Rather be a hammer than a nail"
Bob
At least you apparently knew, up front, that there was likely to be a problem.
Not long ago I was getting calls from a property manager here after I successfully removed an in-ground vehicle lift from a restaurant-to-be. The last call wanted me to remove a large sign from one building and hang it on another. He figured it to be a 2-3 hr job. Then I asked him about permitting and inspection. Oops. Not to mention repair of the previous location's wall, which of course he didn't care about. Wasn't even clear who owned the sign.
I finally convinced him not to call anymore. Pleasantly. He was constantly wanting a jackleg to save his tenants, or him, a lot of money. That's his job. But not mine.
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
I just love it when a potential customer tells me how long a job should take. It's always a red flag for me.
Al Mollitor, Sharon MA
Ain't it funny that their guess as to how long it should take is always on the short side! Coincidence? doubt it.
Doug
Sometimes its just the way they ask .
Or as on a job I was doing the client asked if I would do something that was totally stupid looking using bogus materials. Picking up on my skepticm and reluctance he said " well I wont tell people "you" did it ! I asked him.." what are u going to do?... put up signs everywhere who did what?If I do this job every assumes i did everything!"
Maybe it's this area, maybe it's my experiences. I have friends who are property managers (heck, I even have a degree in property management) and there seems to be no difference in their attitude. I will almost never agree to work for one. They want the job done now, I have to wait for my money, they want to tell me how much and how to do the job. Not my customers.Quality repairs for your home.
Aaron the HandymanVancouver, Canada
Good call Aaron....soon as a potential customer begins suggesting hos I do the job, I know I won`t be doing it. If they start insisting I do it a certain way, I offer to rent them my tools.
Had a guy print out a set of installation instructions for vinyl siding for me one time.....I handed him a hammer and a pair of shears and walked off the job.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
"DO IT RIGHT, DO IT ONCE"
Jaybird,
"Had a guy print out a set of installation instructions for vinyl siding for me one time.....I handed him a hammer and a pair of shears and walked off the job."
In a perfect world, we hire capable and honest tradesmen, and then get of of their way and let them do their jobs, confident that the end result will be acceptable. The problem is that not all tradesmen are capable or honest. So, the customer (and we're ALL customers at one time or another) makes an attempt to ensure he/she receives quality work by providing detail on expectations (in your case, installation instructions). What is so wrong with that?
You are certainly entitled to do business with whomever you choose, and under whatever conditions you choose. That's one of the joys of being an independent businessman. But why not either gently inform the customer that yes, you are aware of how to properly install siding, or explain to them why your preferred method differs from the instructions (if that's the case). Why take offense and "walk off the job"?
I realize my posts was rather short....and to the point.....but "reading" potential customers plays big time into choosing the projects that fill my slate. Just because somebody dials my phone number properly doesn`t assure them of my services. I`ve become quite adept at weeding out the problem clients. "Mr. Vinyl", as I`ll call him, sneaked through the cracks....there had been several potential "red flags" during the interview process which I had let slide as he was "a friend of a friend". My own fault....no one to blame but myself.
The print out of installation instructions was just the clincher, but it never should have gotten that far.
As to the "perfect world, capable tradesman"....all I can say is that I can`t fathom hiring somebody whom I even suspected as needing my supervision. When I hire you (you being generic) to do a job for me, the main reason I`m doing so is because I believe that you are the person most qualified to perform the task. Had I felt the need to download installation instructions for you off the web, you wouldn`t be standing in my living room to begin with.....and if it had only become apparent during the course of the job, Ida payed you for your time and sent you on your way.... teaching you how to do your job aint my place either.J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
"DO IT RIGHT, DO IT ONCE"
"...all I can say is that I can`t fathom hiring somebody whom I even suspected as needing my supervision. "
J.D., sounds like you're pretty adept at sniffing out troublesome clients. And, it sounds like this client was a PITA and the instruction sheet was the straw that broke the camel's back.
But, most H.O.'s can't sniff out bad contractors. And, there ARE loads of guys out there that do indeed need "supervision" (and they're probably not the kind of guys who frequent this site). Even simple jobs such as siding installation get screwed up or have corners cut. Given that reality, is it wrong for the H.O. to specify installation procedures and expectations?
....is it wrong for the H.O. to specify installation procedures and expectations?
Expectations...no...I appreciate clients voicing their desires up front....installation procedures is something else.
I wouldn`t accept "guidance" from a client no matter what the task....vinyl siding, load bearing girder, ceramic tile, whatever. J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
"DO IT RIGHT, DO IT ONCE"
So you're saying that if a customer handed you a set of instructions or specifications telling you how to install a product (from the manufacturer), or told you he wanted a particular product installed a certain way (in order to insure quality, maybe), you'd walk off the job? Wow.
I know that if I hand a contractor a set of plans and specifications, and instructions, for a job, he'd better follow them to the letter, or give me a really good reason why not. If he wants to walk off the job, that's fine, but it's a surefire indication that he either A) can't handle the job, or B) can't handle being told what to do. Either way, it's better that you walk off the job so that I don't fire you later. I'm paying your bill, and if I want something to be done a certain way, or look a certain way, you better do it.
I really hate dealing with contractors who can't follow instructions. FYI, I have to deal with this all the time, with excavating contractors who can't seem to read a set of plans and do things "their way" without asking. I'm more than happy to see them do it over, do it right, or get lost.
From a contractor's point of view, I think its more a matter of getting the respect due us and that we aren't all idiots and do know what we are doing.
I have no problem asking for instructions ( or specifications, or whatever ) IF I'm not sure how something is supposed to be installed; after all, it is my reputation on the line, and the last thing I want is an unhappy customer.
But some customers do like to micro-manage us. Giving an install sheet for vinyl siding, IMO, is just being rediculous for any decent contractor.
And as far as wanting something done in a certain way, I've told HOs that I refuse to do that because it won't meet code, it won't last, it won't work the way they want, etc.
I think my point is- that when we are hired to do a job, we're not just bringing our bodies and tools to the job, we're also bringing our experience and knowledge, too. Part of that is knowing when to ask for help, but ( again, IMO ) a customer telling me how to do my job is out of line.
Shep,
Understand your points very well. I sometimes have to look at it from the other side of the fence. Here's a view from the perspective of an engineer dealing with excavators and site contractors. I try to give the contractor the benefit of the doubt, usually. I don't like to micromanage, and assume that if the contractor has a good set of plans, that they will build to the plans, to the specs, and to code.
Far more often than I'd like, I see shortcuts taken. This comes in two forms. One, the contractor is an old-timer who has always "done things this way". He's used to being told "run the sewer from here to there and bury it". He won't listen to nobody, not the engineer, not the owner, and not the local building inspector. This guy gets about halfway through my jobs and one of two things happens: he gets fired or he has to dig it all up and start over.
The second guy does whatever he wants to speed through the project without asking any questions or reading the details. If the plans call for 'xyz', he'll do it. If he can't figure out where the plans or specs call for it, he'll just wing it until he gets caught. Then he'll claim that the information wasn't there. This guy's dangerous, because everything has to be spelled out for him, and even then he won't read it.
I realize this is a bit different from being told how to install vinyl siding, but I think most everyone on this forum is an exception to the rule rather than the norm. I really think that a lot of contractors are far more concerned with the bottom line (read :$$$$) than the quality of their work. I listen to my contractors, both the ones who dig for me and the ones who are building my house. If they have a way of doing things that makes sense, I listen and let them do it. If something is just plain wrong, inadequate, or I just want it done my way, well, you better do it my way. Sometimes it's appropriate, just from a first impression, to bail on day one. I'd hope that most of you guys, when handed plans and specs, would read them through before leaving the job.
I agree with your points, too.
Lots of times there's more than 1 right way to do something, and I'm always (OK, usually ) willing to listen. Maybe I'll even learn something.
I've GC'd any number of jobs, and have butted heads with subs on some of them. As you said, sometimes its "always been done this way" or its the one who doesn't read all the specs (or plans) . I've been guilty of that myself, but I'm learning from my mistakes.
I guess it boils down to this- if you are that uncomfortable working for someone, either another contractor or a homeowner, you should figure out why. Sometimes leaving the job is the only solution.
You made a very good point about not doing things that will put your reputation and or license on the line. Contractors have to remember that H O are watching these un reality building shows and or talking to some salesman leaning them towards products that wont work or look right for their job and then there are just those customers who think they know better.
All of my work comes from word of mouth so how you deal with customers is a very big part of this buisness and believe me there are times i would rather pin the instructions to their forehead with a framing gun but walking off the job isnt an option unless the money stops
They were manufacturers installation instructions that the homeowner had downloaded off the web.
Big difference between being told what the job is (blueprints) and how to do the job (manufacturers instructions). Also big difference in relationship between HO/contractor and GC/subcontractor.J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
"DO IT RIGHT, DO IT ONCE"
I'm guessing drywall ...
mark a level line ...
cut thru the drywall with a utility knife ...
below the level line ...
how thick if the mantle top ... 1"?
make the cut out strip 1 1/8th ...
cut out the offending drywall bump ...
slip in and set mantle.
makes for straight cabs on crokked walls all the time ... can't see why it wouldn't work for a mantle in a rental ...(guess due to the property manager thing)
Get paid ... on with life.
I'da taken the job.
I do remodeling ... nothings straight/level/plumb to start with ....
Jeff
Built up mantle
Just like in the link posted.
6" thick mantle and a french cleat to hang it on.
I'll give you the address if you want to do it.
No hard feelings.Quality repairs for your home.
Aaron the HandymanVancouver, Canada