so, what is the overall best tool company out there? Dewalt is pretty good, but Rigid is becoming more of my favorite.
It takes studs to build a house
Edited 12/30/2007 12:58 am ET by andyfew322
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Edited 12/30/2007 12:58 am ET by andyfew322
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Ridgid seemed good at the start, but has signs of cheapening. Can't say much, I only have their older style hammer drill, that was a colaberation between Ridgid and Metabo. (Much like Ridgids older jigsaw) I understand Ryobi is now the parent co.
what do you mean parent company? I find Ryobi as a HO tool (or my tool) :)
It takes studs to build a house
That is a common myth.Emerson Electric owns both Rigid and Ryobi. They have Metabo build some of their tools in Germany. Most are made in the far east. Some get labeled for Craftsman.Emerson is under a broader yet parent company TPI or TTI Most of the brand names of tools all fall under one of three international umbrella companies. I don't happen to think the ownership has much to do with the tool quality produced by each brand.I also think each manufacturer has some good tools and some poor ones. Even Ryobi has produced one or two winners.But I would have to say that Milwaukee has produced the most consistent line of winners I know of. Close behind would be both Makita and the Porter Cable lineup. DW is in the acceptable list for pros, but not by a lot, IMOI hear a lot of good about Rigid but haven't ever owned one
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I feel the biggest problem comes down to where the tool is made.
The Makita 18v ion line: the jigsaw is made in england and works smooth and great, the drill is made in china and runs rough, the impact driver is made in japan works great, sawzall japan and works well.
Some companys know how to reduce costs and some just get cheap!!
True datBut WAIT, there's more!;)It also depends on whether a tool is made in a factory owned and fully controlled by the label, or whether it is subcontracted out.Example -
I remember reading a long article several years ago by a guy who went to Taiwan to visit the tool factories there. That is where almost all of the tablesaws were coming from at the time. This was just before Hong Kong went back to China and all the TS were cast iron monsters.Delta had its own factory and the quality was pretty good. ( I think they still made the Unisaw in America that year, but the smaller models came from Taiwan)Grizzly I think did not own the factory, but they kept their own inspectors right there on the lines all the time keeping an eye on things.There were others who simply wrote specs and a design drawing and bought table tops from all sorts of foundries and coupled them with motors and parts from other cheapest bid vendors. They were found to have a lower satisfaction rating and more returns, more flaws, etc.So it is not only where a tool is made, but whether or how closely the company controls its manufacturing.I am wearing a shirt right now that is an example of the same kind of thing. I ordered five of the same shirt from Duluth. Three were fine and two shrunk down to pint size after the first washing. The three that I am happy with were made in a different country from the two that got miniaturized.
One phone call and Duluth exchanged the bad ones, with apology, they said they had changed vendors.
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Did you put the last two Tees on after Thanksgiving dinner?
I agree with you about manufacturing oversight.
Whether it's tools or clothes or ceramics or optics or whatever, manufacturing contracted offshore by American distributers is only as good as the quality control exercised by the contractor.
I agree with you that each brand name has its good lines. I'm pretty heavy with Milwaukie and Makita and Bosch and Hilti with a few others tossed in that I'm happy with. But I've got a couple of Bosch tools that were junk right out of the box. I like my PC sidewinder (nice companion saw to the wormdrives I mostly use), but Ive had to have the casing replaced twice due to breakage.
Most of my guns are Senco, but my older ones are much better and more durable than more recent ones. My PC routers, Belt sander and floor nailer are top notch, but other PC tools are a bit flimsy to my taste.
I don't own any DeWalt due to my memory of Dewalt being the Black and Decker of the 70's; a silly prejudice, I admit, but I also don't like the color.... (better than pink, however) :-)
Well, Dewalt yellow sure beats that hideous green and black color scheme used at Hitachi!
Actually, Hitachi makes all sorts of colors. I like
the mauve.
View Image
Dosen't the new Hitachi stuff look like some high tech basketball shoes? No one should regard themselve as "God's gift to man." But rather a mere man whos gifts are from God.
I think you are referring to Elephant Machinery Co. in Taiwan.
They made Grizzly, Jet, Penn State Industries, Central Machine, and a few others. From what I heard back then ( 80's) is that they purchased the molds that would no longer hold tolerances that Delta and Rockwell had held specs to.
The exact same castings were made but lacked that close fit, and also they cut back on the final finish grinding ( like flatness on saw table tops, and Trunnion mating faces) because the castings were so erratic that there wasn't always enough thickness to grind to perfection.
Look at all the Delta 14" bandsaw copies, they all have one thing in common , or did,,,the plastic wheel housing knobs have an elephant on them..there is the sign of commonality.
There was some doggone good stuff sent out of there, and some total garbage..the cast iron was all over the place as far as quality goes..and warping was the biggest problem over and above stress cracking.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
I thought Ryobi was still owned by the Ryobi Group. But apparently
their non-Asian power tools are now made under license to One World.Now, I was even more surprised to see that Ryobi has licensed out their
fishing tackle operations.
One World is a TTI company. TTI owns Ryobi, Milwaukee, AEG, Homelite, and Stiletto. The One World branch of TTI also makes most Ridgid power tools under a partnership, but they do not own the brand--that still belongs to Emerson.Emerson/Ridgid got into bed with HD and TTI after Sears gave them the boot. The guy behind the retooling of Ridgid came to Emerson from Ryobi and was with Millers Falls Tools before that. His dad was a tool guy too Millers Falls/Ingersoll-Rand.http://forums.woodworking.com/article_archive.cfm?section=5&article=973
I'm so confused...
"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." Invictus, by Henley.
OK let me try to staighten out this mess (at least until the next round of mergers/acqusitions:TTI owns: One World, Ryobi, Milwaukee, AEG, Homlite, and Stiletto.Emerson owns: Knaack & Ridgid and I think they still make their own shop vacs and pipe threading stuff but the power tools are made by One World/TTIB&D owns Dewalt, Delta and PC...much of the manufacturing has moved to Mexico/Taiwan/China.Bosch owns Skil and Vermont American.WHM owns Jet, Powermatic and Wilton.Johnson owns Stabila. ;o)
TTI also owns Dirt Devil and some other non-tool brands.One of the interesting things when the TTI/Ridgit deal was first anounced one of the PR releases had some background information on TTI.They did a lot of OEM, prototyping, and design work for other companies such as Bosch. Upset a lot of people that was saying that TTI products where all Roybi.It has never been clear just where the Emerson/TTI line is drawn. From what I gathered when Emerson first started with the Ridgid tools it was mostly stationary tools, the same type that they made for Sears. But while they might have still made the TS in the US they contracted out for other suppliers. Aparently Twani generic, but to their specs. Then I think that they started working with TTI on portable tools.Later Sears sued claiming that some of the tooling and designs was there. But I don't have any idea of what happened to that.Later the announced the "partnership" with TTI. But there is no indication of what Emerson's role is in it. If they just licensce the name, if they act as distributor/service, if they participate in the design, etc.However, AFAIK, Emerson still make the vacs for both Sears and Ridgit.
.
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
It is hard to follow...that's why I called it a shell game.If you haven't already read it, that link I posted is interesting about the Ridgid story. Sounds like they are serious about innovative design...even if, like most tool makers, they use offshore manufacturing.It is interesting to me that Bosch, Makita, and even Ryobi still make some of their tools in the USA. Looked at a DeWalt last month...made in Italy.If the dollar stays weak, who knows--more stuff might get made here.
TTI owns a license to use the Ryobi brand (and I suppose their
designs). Apparently, Ryobi Ltd. still manufactures its own power tools
for Asian markets in China, but they are primarily a maker of
heavy industrial goods like printing presses.
Ryobi is still a quasi-independent Japanese Co. as you say. TTI was making many tools for them in China and then in 2000 TTI bought the North American branch of Ryobi, effectively taking Ryobi LTD. out of the loop.Now TTI manufactures, distributes and markets most of the Ryobi tools sold here.
Well, I doubt many in this group would choose Ryobi as the best tool.I think if I were forced to use one brand for some reason, I would choose Makita. Good design, ergonomic, reliable, performance, very broad line of products.
True enough.
Layers upon layers of corporate ownershipWe're living in an onion world
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You can smell it.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
But I would have to say that Milwaukee has produced the most consistent line of winners I know of. Close behind would be both Makita and the Porter Cable lineup.
is this based on customer support or tool quality??? Both???
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Based on my opinion of tool quality.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
It gets hard to follow some of these corporate shell games.See my other posts about the Ryobi/Ridgid and Emerson relationship.I'll throw my 2 cents in:Ryobi: average tools for low $, good for DIY or occasional/high theft area use ;o)Ridgid: good but heavy--sometimes that is a plus. I like the planer I have.Milwaukee: best corded tools around esp. Sawzall & heavy duty drills, good cordless too.PC: Good sanders & routers & sidewinders, recip. saw is good too. Throw that loud pancake compressor in a lake.Dewalt: average to good: workhorse mitersaws & I like the table saws and the little Emglo compressor.Bosch: good stuff. Nice routers, great hammer drill. I have the TS4000 nice but mine has had issues. I like the NiCad cordless for cold weather (if it is warm or I'm inside I use Makita Li Ion).Hitachi: great SCMS, good nail guns.Makita: Best cordless stuff IMO, generally good tools.
I work with an older carpenter who is on his fourth Milwaukee sawzall in 3 wks. There is some oddball problem with the motor not engaging the recip. mechanism, right out of the box.
I think they shipped their manufacturing out of town to somewhere in Mississippi?
south of Mississippi
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
which model?..I'm fixin to get one in the near future. read the FHB article comparing them...at least I THINK it was FHB."The nearest thing to eternal life we will ever see on this earth is a governmental program" -Ronald Reagan
Emerson is the parent Co. of Ridgid...but they have a partnership with TTI subsidiary One World who manufactures most Ridgid tools for Emerson under contract. Tools made by the same group as Ryobi but not owned by them.Ryobi profits go to China.Emerson corp. profit stays in USA...to some extent.
Interesting thing about Emerson: It was a dead brand from about 1965 to maybe 1980, when an Oriental company bought the brand name (but no product line) for their business. In the 50s the original Emerson made electronics -- radios and TVs. We had an Emerson TV.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
Interesting thing about Emerson: It was a dead brand from about 1965 to maybe 1980, when an Oriental company bought the brand name
Not sure what you are thinking of there, but it doesn't "fit" with Emerson's corporate history Emerson has published and printed in their annual reports (a good friend works for Emerson). Emerson is a US company that makes a variety of products, most of which you have never heard of unless you are in specialized industries such as environmental testing, disease research, etc. They did make the Sears stationary power tools into the 1990's and do make some consumer electronics, etc. They used to "own the market" for furnace blowers, of all things, but they have a bit more competition these days.
Best? Not sure that there is one company that outperforms the rest on every single tool.
Some of my best performing tools are Makitas. I have an old 10" miterbox I bought used 6 years afo that won't die. A 1/2" electric impact also by Makita that has run in more lags and put together more garage doors than I can remember.
Rigid has some good offerings that I own. I own their dual tank compressor, their worm drive circular saw, and a table saw that stays in my shop. All perform well each and every time I use them.
Routers and belt sanders are probably owned by Porter Cable. I have both made by PC and am very happy with them.
Bosch makes a couple of great Jig Saws. Their worm drive is also a good saw, just not as good as the Rigid in my opinion.
Woods favorite carpenter
There is no best at everything.
Everyone has their winners, and their dogs
My fav's consistantly end up coming from Germany. Festool, Fein. Bosch Ive had great luck with, at less cost than the other two. Hilti, outstanding, if you want to pay for it.
Add to your equation when talking cordless, theres only like 2 places in the world that make those cells, and they come in 3 sizes total, and most manufacturers use . . . all 3 sizes to get their net voltage. So every label on that, really just a label. They're not different other than the number of what that gets used to make up the 14.4 or 18v or whatever. Which is also why tool memory is / was an issue. The .8 cell drains before the 1.2 cell, the 1.2 cell never gets a chance to drain fully, ba da bing.
You want a cordless thats going to last and last, you want all the cells identical, and a charger that charges, notices that you arent using it today, and drains it down a little, then keeps changing. Not one that charges up and holds it there.
Real trucks dont have sparkplugs
Andy, as others argue the issues of a tools value, let me say it doesn't matter.
Your young and just starting so the tools you buy should be simply affordable for your budget. As your skills progress and your budget increases you will learn which tools are worth your hard earned dollar. Ridgid might be just fine for you now.
I started out with my Dads worn out Rockwell mitre saw and an old skill saw. I was excited when I bought my first Sears router for $49 and a wormdrive skill saw.It took me a while to wear out that router, but I still have the wormdrive, 32 years later.
I've bought a lot of cheap low end tools that at the time was a good buy and fit my skill level. But with my skills now I would wear out most of them within the week.
I can afford to buy what ever I want now but I fall back on my Grandfathers words of wisdom...
Find the best tool you can for the job then look for the cheapest price.
Lets hope Festool stay's Festool. Or are they owned by a company I don't care to hear about?
Here are some tool companies that really make their product, and the products are good ones.
Grandfors (axes)
Stihl (chainsaws, etc.)
Festool (you know)
Lie-Nielsen (hand planes)
Thermwood, Busellatto (CNC routers)
Sig Sauer (guns)
Hilti. Wish I could afford 'em.
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
Your question could have come out of a corporate marketing department. It's certainly considered as proof that the advertising is having an impact.
Brand loyalty is a false trail. Sure, a firm may make many fine tools - but that does not mean that all of their products are automatically just as fine.
Nor is 'best' always 'best' for you. If you use an angle grinder once a quarter, to cut off a single bolt .... a cheap Chinese import may be just fine for you - and a Metabo a waste of money.
I happen to be left handed. The effect of this is that some tools, loved by many, have various controls very poorly placed for my hand. What's good for you might be poor for me.
There are two methods for tool selection. Use them together, and it's pretty hard to go wrong.
First, look at what everyone else is using for that specific job. Chances are, they didn't ALL make the same mistake. Second, look carefully at what your needs are. You may decide that a different type of tool -say, a bandsaw, rather than a saws-it-all- is what you really want.
hard to say brand specific. I look at tool specific. for examplebiscuit jointer, lamello/ dewalt
ROS bosch
jig saw bosch
drills/ makita
on and on
Tools are like appliances -- no manufacturer stays at the top or the bottom forever. Even with the best of intentions company managers often make a misstep with an ill-conceived redesign, etc. And with technology advancing and price pressures from China et al it's hard to just stay put and not change.
Dewalt is pretty good
I'd disagree with you on DeWalt - we haven't had much luck with DeWalt, and a lot of problems. Guess you know they are Black and Decker tools in yellow packages (B&D owns DeWalt).
Ridgid seems OK, but I haven't used their tools too much. Ryobi has surprised me - I still use the RE600 router I bought 15+ years ago, and the RA2500. Bosch is probably my favorite, though I have a lot of Porter Cable tools as well.
Black and Decker does own DW, but the similarity ends there.The name DW is an old brand that B&D brought back to life but with an all new outfit. A couple of the old engineers with a brand new design team fresh out of school focusing on new materials and methods and the ergonomics, with a whole new marketing department.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Hey Piffin,
Actually... When B&D bought the Dewalt name they transfered over some of their B&D professional models into the yellow with little change. The old style Dewalt (90's) base model circular saw, router and sawsall look identicle except yellow rather than black.
That being said, the quality of these tools was much higher than what we think of today as B&D.
Matt
Although know by many, it should be noted here that when they acquired ELU - they simply made some yellow versions of some very excellent ELU tools, such as the famed 600 series routers.That is why you'll still find some Dewalt stuff made in Italy (such as the 8.5 slider).Interesting right now that they are taking some of the PC products and simply re-badging them Dewalt - such as the 3710 series laminate trimmer with the interchangeable bases.These days there is a lot of single branded loyalty probably tied to good marketing. But of all the professional tool lines (And I don't count Ridgid in that sentence), IMO Dewalt has more #### than the others. Having said that, they also have the widest variety out there and also of course make some excellent stuff.There's been a lot of Makita bashing on this board, mainly by old-timers I suspect - I'm not old enough to have experienced the previous posted about Makita shady early US history . (I'm 39).In my experience, Makita has always stood for quality tools and had a wide lineup, although it seemed like quite a few of their product lines only had the bare minimum of improvements or enhancements to them.I'd hope that Makita would take this newfound buzz they've found themselves with from the 18 volt Lion stuff and run with it - they could very well place themselves in the premier pro tool category with a few more hits in their lineup.Seems to me that Bosch has slipped more than the others in recent years from a lot of out sourcing and lack of quality in recent releases IMO.Too bad we didn't have a universal battery platform that would allow you to pick and choose between the cordless tool cream of the crop.Now that Milwaukee's got routers that woodworker's are paying attention to and they've come out with the nailguns (with no marketing!), it'll be cool if they took that ball and ran with it a little further with saws and such.I'll have to agree that if you had to pick one company to say who has positioned themselves as the best it'd have to be Festool. They just make great products and don't apologize for what they cost or try to appeal to the idiot consumer markets.With all of the other brands, you have to do your research to make sure you are not buying a cheaply made for the masses tool. Back in the day, you could tell with Dewalts for example - the pro drills had black grips - now they put that overmold #### everywhere and the only way to tell is to really look into the specs and such.JT
The Milwaukee nailguns are the same as the Ridgid guns. They seem like nice guns. Ridgid has the better warranty, but I like buying from the local tools shops that carry Milwaukee. I also like red better than orange. ;o)
But I'll bet Milwaukee has better warranty customer service. Plus, I like the red better too.Too many stories of long waits/no parts and indifferent independent service centers from Ridgid users.JT
Today's B&D aims at the HO weekender market.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Totally agree, the only B&D I buy is from garage sales...
... I have about three workmates, they are the ****.
Matt
"so, what is the overall best tool company out there?"
............. I'd say Festool, not a clinker in the lot from what I can see. Don't own any but have tried the sanders and jigsaw. Excellent and expensive equipment. Festertoolians (Festool owners) do seem a pretty rabid lot though ;). The company I worry about the most is Porter Cable- many of their tried and true products have/are disappearing (Model 100, Model 310 routers, 126 planer, 503/504 sanders, their entire corded drill line) since the Black and Darker buyout.
Festool is the best at most of what they do...but they are limited is scope (part of why they are good).Festool cordless drills are inferior to Makita Li-Ion IMO.Have not seen any Festool Hole Hawgs, Sawzalls, or Roto-Hammer Drills, but I guess Hilti does.Do they do nailguns, compressors, etc.?
No Festool compressors or nailguns yet but someday I would not be surprised- their lineup seems about as big as PC's these days. They have a mitersaw now (http://www.garymkatz.com/ToolReviews/Kapex.htm), something PC no longer has. Off the top of my head DeWally, Hitachi, and Makita are the only full line brands left.
B&D ownership of PC, Delta, and Dewalt means that some of the duplicate offerings are being dropped...might be good for the B&D bottom line, but consumers loose. I have that Delta DCMS that has a bunch of great innovative features. Huge cutting capacity, amazing sliding fence mechanism, cool crown stops, etc. I got it as a clearance item as it was discontinued. Seems they can make a similar Dewalt saw, with less features, for more profit and the Delta name had already fallen too far in the eyes of pros. I noted one error in the Katz review of the Festool slider...it is not the lightest 10" slider, the Hitachi is 4 pounds lighter.
Starrett