Just looked through my latest copy of Fine Homebuilding. Does anyone have any experience with the new tool reviewed (on page 36) for coping baseboard called the coper? (www.thecoper.com)
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Are you Rob or Duane?
"Live Free,
not Die"
Yeah razz, just what I figured wheres Fink?
Looks like a cool tool, tho'.
Great, another for the want list.
be cryin'"Live Free, not Die"
Why do you say that?He has been a member for 3 years, but doesn't post much.
I knew that.
Was ribbing him."Live Free, not Die"
People pay me good money to make a real coping joint with a $12 coping saw, why would I pay 12 times that for a gimmick production tool. Thats like all the kitchen gadgets on TV.
Ill give you ten bucks canadian for the thing.
So you wouldn't be interested in one of these?
http://www.copemaster.com/
and I'd say, that if the tool actually worked well, and increased production enough to pay for itself in a timely fashion, it would be worth a look. The pride of doing it by hand is great an all, but if a machine will give you the same results in less time why not?
Well I guess, if you like CNC cabs too. I tend to see the difference in a hand made and router made dovetail, but some people like the static look.
zendo - "People pay me good money to make a real coping joint with a $12 coping saw, why would I pay 12 times that for a gimmick production tool. Thats like all the kitchen gadgets on TV."
...Becuase (using your figures) once you make over 12 copes with the tool if it is even a fraction faster it starts to save you time which if you are charging good money for your services on a lump sum project basis (vs charging by the hour) you will make a lot more money.
In a discussion in another forum where we're talking about the Coper just yesterday I made a post saying that several years ago I built myself a little set up out of scrap wood that was essentially just what the Coper is only with out the template to guide the bearing bit on the router. We just run the router to the line we want to trim to by eye and it works fine and it a lot faster than coping with a coping saw. In fact I can think of a couple of other carpenters working for other companies that impressed with how fast it goes have picked up the technique from us.
Our setup is just a slightly tilted wooden table bed for the molding that has holes drilled into that we have set up with Jorgenson Hold Down Clamps to hold the molding securely. Attached to the end of the tilted platen is what is essentially a little table that supports the router. When I first made it I used a scrap piece of 1/4 ply that was hanging around for the table but replaced it with 1/4" plexi which has been replaced a couple of times over the years. We have also used the same setup with a jig saw, dremel tool, and a rotozip and the tool choice is generally based on what the carpenter finds most handy at the time although the router seems to be the preferred tool.
There is another tool out there too that can dramatically speed up coping too that's actually built and distributed from a shop right near me called the CopeMaster only I think this is a much more serious production tool. We're considering it but I think we would have to do a lot more whole house projects to make it worthwhile but like I said we are looking into it and may go for it sometime in the future.
I was thinking when I was talking about the Coper in that other forum the other day that I'm pretty sure that in the last ten years I haven't even used a coping saw to cope a joint and its actually probably more like 15 years. I have one guy who at times likes to copes with a table saw but for the rest of us we use the coping table with either a router or jig saw.
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I was wondering when the table saw would come into play. Would that make osha scream?Nothin like it for scribing hardwood into stone. Did ya ever try a 4 1/2" grinder with 36 grit paper? Makes a lil bit of dust however.
Dan
Blacky -"I was wondering when the table saw would come into play. Would that make osha scream?Nothin like it for scribing hardwood into stone."
Personally I not a fan of table saw coping but I fail to see any validity to the "its dangerous" argument. When pressed as to why its so dangerous the answer you usually get is "kickback" but when coping with a tablesaw you are just nibbling at the end of the piece and kick back isn't an issue at all. I have no problem with it except the the guy I have who like to do it has a very noisy old Makita table saw and the sound it makes drives me nuts.
There was a big debate on this over on JLC a month ago and I am still waiting for someone to present me with a valid rational reason as to why coping with a table saw is so dangerous.
One of the other things I like about our coping table technique is its set up right along with the miter saw so the operation takes place right where the miter is cut and the table part of the coping table support the ends of long piece of trim being cut.
"Did ya ever try a 4 1/2" grinder with 36 grit paper? Makes a lil bit of dust however"
Yup done that too. And I have this other kind of grinding wheel that I used to. We use the 4-1/2 grinders a lot to sculpt and shape the railing parts we make.
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There was an article I think last year in JLC that the writer made negative template molds of the different types of molding he used. He made a table and router cut against the template, I believe it was some type of setting epoxy bed.
Ok so the Copemaster can cut a piece in 22 seconds. Figure that you can fit it into the machine in the remaining 8 so 60 seconds a corner. If the machine cuts properly, fitting the corner shouldnt take much more time then you have allotted for running board feet. So if you charge board ft, plus $15 dollars a corner, you make about $900 an hour on your corners with the copemaster.
Oh there is a minus there, you have to transport it, set it up, clean and maintain, so if that took a... 1 hour off the standard day, you still make $6300. With an annual of 1,575,000 for one guy.
Edit- that number increases drastically for all the single sided copes.
-zen
Edited 2/11/2005 10:36 am ET by zendo
zendo - "Oh there is a minus there, you have to transport it, set it up, clean and maintain,"
That's is why we haven't sprung for a CopeMaster. The coping table we have (which is similar to the Coper) is on the job already as part of the miter saw setup so using a Copemaster is an additional set-up which takes time (as well as space in an already cramped truck). Our more typical average project which may be just a stair, or just a home office installation just doesn't have the LF of trim and number of coped corners to justify the additional set-up cost and the additional capital expense of purchasing the tool in the first place ($2295). Although like I said if we land a steady stream of more whole house projects with thousands of LF then we'll revisit the issue.
However I think the Coper at just $122 isn't a bad deal at all although it's pretty easy to replicate most of its functionality and what goes into it in a homemade set up or even a temporary site built set-up.
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Do you remember the article I was referring to? I will dig it up I know I saved it.
I went and saw Jed Dixon at Builders Trade, I spent the day in Stairbuilding. I noticed that they didnt even have a Bore Buster. They did use a laser plumb bob and a digital level. Do you use the specialty tools available from places like LJSmith, and like what Gary Katz reviewed last month?
zendo -
"Do you remember the article I was referring to? I will dig it up I know I saved it." Nah I don't. I actually just searched JLC Online to see if I could find it and came up empty. I f you can find it without too much trouble though I certainly would be interested. I found it hard to believe I didn't read it when it first came out or don't remember it which was why I searched. I'm a knowledge junkie so usally I read everything and since I make a lot of expoxy molds for a lot of different things I'm very interested.
"I went and saw Jed Dixon at Builders Trade, I spent the day in Stairbuilding. I noticed that they didnt even have a Bore Buster. They did use a laser plumb bob and a digital level. Do you use the specialty tools available from places like LJSmith, and like what Gary Katz reviewed last month?"
We don't have a company bore buster but one of my guys has one of his own. I never use it though (or at least raely use it and instead use pitch blocks) but I think it's a great tool. Just never sprung for one I guess. They are expensive. There is however a pseudo bore buster from something like General tools that is much much cheaper if not just plain old cheap that isn't worth anything though. I'd go for the genuine article if I was to get one myself.
"I went and saw Jed Dixon at Builders Trade, I spent the day in Stairbuilding. I noticed that they didnt even have a Bore Buster. They did use a laser plumb bob and a digital level. Do you use the specialty tools available from places like LJSmith, and like what Gary Katz reviewed last month?" I got some home made set ups that achomplish many of the same thing as though specialized tool he wrote about but the laser and digital level stuff I got into years ago and have always been a fan of. As for specialized tools there is one commercially available tool that I am pretty interested in getting to replace some of the home made jigs we have set up for shaping rails. The Scheer FG 308 Hardrail Router. ER System Tecknik has a bunch of other really great but really specialized stairbuilding equipment too.
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That stair rail machine is killer. How much?
I found it, I thought for a while there that maybe I saw it in Remodeler or something, but it was JLC.
May, JLC 2004, Toolbox, 'Quick Coping for Flat Moldings', Dan Papineau. p 164
If you dont have it I can fax you a copy.
Anyone who is interested, this article is worth looking back at. I think you could be innovative and tweak it, but its a great, simple idea.
-zen
this thing only does base and chair rail ... not crown.
Now ... granted .. U say U could fly thru the base ...
but what about keeping the skills sharp for when crown comes into play?
That's why I cope paint grade stuff.
The more U do it ... the easier and quicker it is.
start relying on machines ... and the one time your project don't fit the machine ...
and you've lost that touch ... yer screwed.
and I'll say it again ... I don't do production work.
But .. really ... is this a big problem. The time consuming base mould cope?
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
Might be rare Free but I totally agree with you...lol
Be well
a...The secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
When we meet, we say, Namaste'..it means..
I honor the place in you where the entire universe resides,
I honor the place in you of love, of light, of truth, of peace.
I honor the place within you where if you are in that place in you
and I am in that place in me, there is only one of us.
Andy,
You gut that site back up yet? C'mon, I wanna see it.
be webmaster
-zen
Sorry zen...its gone forever...DW f'd it up and made most of it disappear accidently.
Pizzed me off!!!!The secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
When we meet, we say, Namaste'..it means..
I honor the place in you where the entire universe resides,
I honor the place in you of love, of light, of truth, of peace.
I honor the place within you where if you are in that place in you
and I am in that place in me, there is only one of us.
Are you going to build a new one, or do you not think it is necessary?
Wives make mistakes too. lol
-zen
Yeh....probably will make a new one but that one I made on my own and it took time so.........with all the things I have on my platter right now I don't see doing it for a while.
I ain't axactly puter savy....
Wish she didn't mess it up....took me so long to think some of those things out.....but.....I love her anyway.
Some things come and some things go....including us.
Be well brotherman,
a...The secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
When we meet, we say, Namaste'..it means..
I honor the place in you where the entire universe resides,
I honor the place in you of love, of light, of truth, of peace.
I honor the place within you where if you are in that place in you
and I am in that place in me, there is only one of us.
Your server doesn't make automatic backups ?Mine does. And it's the one I recommend to anyone I make a site for. They keep a backup at all times.Might be too late now, as they might have already backed up the screwed up version. But if you'd been on a server that does backups, it would have been as simple as requesting that the backup be restored.BTW: My favorite server company is Infopop.Costs nmore than the cheesy crap ones, but it is a lot more secure, does the backups, and has come through for me many times when things got hairy, and other servers would simply have said tough luck...Absolutely the best customer service I have ever seen.One other... As soon as the site was finished, you should have backed the whole thing up yourself, to a cd. And do so again, every time you make a change.All that said, get with me in emails on whatever you do have. Maybe we can kludge something back together again. As I told Pete, I'm no jeenyus, but I'll give whatever help I can.
The person you offend today, may have been your best friend tomorrow
Thanks my brother.
I sorta didn't care that it bleeped out on me although I liked all the things I wrote which bothered me the most to loose.I'm sure I can put it together again using past pictures and the ones that are coming together on this current project.I'd be honored to pay you to put a site together for me when the time comes maybe in the spring if you have the time.
Just Email me with what you think it might run.
[email protected].Be well brotherman
a...The secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
When we meet, we say, Namaste'..it means..
I honor the place in you where the entire universe resides,
I honor the place in you of love, of light, of truth, of peace.
I honor the place within you where if you are in that place in you
and I am in that place in me, there is only one of us.
Andy take a trip with me into my magical mystical way back machine.
http://web.archive.org/web/20020526155151/http://cliffordrenovations.com/
http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://http://www.cliffordrenovations.com/
P.S. Who's your daddy now?Who Dares Wins.
How cool is that, Gunner you rock.
Ive never seen that before.
What a resource
Andy did you see that?
-zen
Gunner rocks!!!!The secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
When we meet, we say, Namaste'..it means..
I honor the place in you where the entire universe resides,
I honor the place in you of love, of light, of truth, of peace.
I honor the place within you where if you are in that place in you
and I am in that place in me, there is only one of us.
No one rocks more than you!The secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
When we meet, we say, Namaste'..it means..
I honor the place in you where the entire universe resides,
I honor the place in you of love, of light, of truth, of peace.
I honor the place within you where if you are in that place in you
and I am in that place in me, there is only one of us.
Just trying to help a brother out.Who Dares Wins.
your profile shows the new biz yer in?
Reckon yer not angry anymore flippin the bird and traded in the beard for a collar...lol.
Be well bro
a...The secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
When we meet, we say, Namaste'..it means..
I honor the place in you where the entire universe resides,
I honor the place in you of love, of light, of truth, of peace.
I honor the place within you where if you are in that place in you
and I am in that place in me, there is only one of us.
I'm Dead Sexy!Who Dares Wins.
the dead part figures...
the sexy thing is a stretch..
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Jelious of my new profile pic?Who Dares Wins.
I'm sorry I opened that...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
ROAR!Who Dares Wins.
I'm with Jerrald on this one. I've been trimming out a large house lately, and if I counted I would probably find close to 1000 inside corners. Small and large crown (some 2-3 piece built up), base and shoe, chair rails (2 piece), and other stuff. Yes, all coped by hand and I consider myself very good at it... but if I can get a machine to do the same thing the I'll do it. If I ran a few samples times on the machine and did some number crunching, I could probably get a $1200 machine to pay for itself in one large house. To save a dollar I need to eliminate about 1.5 minutes of my effort, and I bet a machine would do that. Not that I don't want to be an old-world craftsman...
I thought you guys might like to see what Gary said in the JLC forum.
I think you all know me better than this. I'm a coping foot guy. I can cope ANYTHING--base, crown, chair--with a jig saw and coping foot, and I CAN'T say the same with the COPER. I'm not into having/carrying more tools...at least not unless they provide me with magical powers. I'd rather travel light and learn how to do more, better, with less.
The cope is a tool for non-pros. Period. They also edited my description of the mold process. I had to let the mold sit for two hours before it was hard enough to use as a template--even then it was kind of soft. So I said, if you were prepared ahead of time, and made your molds the night before...
I also said that the bit wouldn't get into tight profiles.
I also wrote (but they removed):
If you’re new to trim work, have difficulty coping baseboard and chair rail by hand, and want a full proof system for cutting perfect cope joints in flat moldings, The Coper might be the answer for you.
One note of warning: This system relies on a 1/4 in. template bit, so delicate details that are smaller than 1/4 in. may not be cut accurately.
I hope it's ok to copy and paste this
Smile. It could be worse. You could be me working for you.
Thanks I was gonna post that as soon as someone started dragging Gary into it.Who Dares Wins.