What do I do to avoid this? I am not a builder. I am not a contractor. But I do know something about both. When I sought to have a custom home built two years ago, I researched the house we wanted, bought plans, wrote specs, did everything in great detail. When my package was ready for the solicitations of bids, it included 32 pages of drawings, a complete takeoff for lumber and interior millwork, plumbing schedules, lighting schedules, room finish schedules, quantities for concrete, drywall, roofing, etc., etc. I did various things in commercial contracting for years and used my old estimating skills. I could not get a single builder to quote me the house (it is an exact reproduction of Sarah Susanka’s “Not So Big House.”) I ended up GCing the thing myself, something I really did not want to do.
Now we are done and I am trying to get contractors to do landscaping and paving. Once again, here I am with plans, specs, quantities, etc., and same thing. The contractors do not come back with quotes, once having met with me and taking a set of bid documents.
What is going on?
Replies
You're being too specific.
By doing that, you're setting a standard, one that can be measured against a written word, a depicted drawing, a materials takeoff list.
Some don't want to be held to a standard, regardless of how open or closed-ended it happens to be.
In my tiny world, builders who are used to this type of written standard...those that typically work with (end eventually, against<g>) architects...would be quite comfortable working with a homeowner who arrives with a seven volume set of houseplans.
Then there's the other side, where the builder prefers no contract, but will reluctantly accept a pencil-line drawing on a napkin with a blurry caption that reads "addition, 24' by 30', finish details to match existing structure."
The irony...you never know which builder will build better than the other.
That volumn of specs can be a good way to detail what you want but it can also send out a signal that you do not trust a contractor to do it right. I used to bid and do some work for the govt. That is how they worked and your commercial background teaches you that way. But I always aded from 60% to 300% for govt work because of the paperwork headaches.
Around here, the best subs work on a handshake with generals they trust, based on past experience.
I'm not saying you are untrustworthy, bnut it seems the builders may be geting that idea. That pile of papers may be getting in the way of a relationship. There are others here who criticize me for bringing up relationships, but that is exactly what it is. I have relationships with my banker, suppliers, kids teachers, etc. All of them are built on trust. If I don't sense that trust, I don't interact, and without interaction there is no relationship, not a positive one anyway.
Piffen and Gene
Piffen laid it out about right from where I stand.
There is a mutual trust between contractors and customers. You trust me to do a good job, I trust you to pay me.
Perhaps, by your contract, your language, your approach, you are weighting things in your behalf, and that makes your potential trades pull back.Alan Jones
Gene,
Ya sound like a good customer to me.
Only I won't bid on your deal. .........I'll only do it on a cost plus basis. That's the way you have it set up. Cost plus...........A % of the materials and subs AND a per hour fee for every nail and screw outside the scope of your specifications.
Quit trying to bid your deals...put it out as a cost plus project.....take the responsibility your ducking and either run the job yourself, (I know, it's a full time job)or pay someone to run it for you.
Luck
Edited 5/5/2002 10:34:34 PM ET by Mark McDonnell
Gene I'm a GC and a specialty contractor and sometimes I have some of the same
problems too. I write a well detailed set of specification for my projects that
contains both a schedule of products and materials as well as performance specs.
75% of the time the newer trade contractors that look at my RFPs abandon them.
I think they just don't want to be bothered. It's too much work for them to
look them over and work up an estimate. They would rather just do it the according
to the method or procedure they are used to than adapt. That's just the way
it is I guess.
However there are certainly are builders out there that would love to work
for clients like you (I'm certainly one of them). It might be a regional problem
in that I know around here ( the NYC suburbs) there are plenty of us doing work
for clients like you. I actually just had a client who actually templated and
patterned a stair railing herself for us to make.
Mongo's assessment that builder who work with detailed specifications prepared
by architects are probably more used to and accustomed to people like you as
a client.
I disagree with Mark McDonnell however where he would bid the job and
will only do it T&M. Your project is the IDEAL job to quote a fixed price
for. Any deviation from the detailed written specs results in a change order
and since they are so well detailed the would be less chance of any ambiguity
arising regarding what was included and covered in the quoted price and what
wasn't. I posted this link in another discussion earlier this evening-22
Reasons Why You Should Never Do Cost Plus (C+) or Time & Material
(T & M) Contracts or Billing for construction projects.
"Do not go where the path may lead, go
instead where there is no path and
leave a trail."-- Ralph Waldo Emerson
I remember when we first went into business getting a thick spec book and a 30 page set of plans. I was quite intimidated by the sheer volume of the information, much of which I did not understand. The numbers and references in the specs didn't mean a thing to me and it seemed that I would have to spend a month of research just so I would have some notion of what I was bidding on.
Fortunately I talked to a couple of my subs and they straightened me out. They explained that most of the specs simply detailed in writing what were their standard practices and that a quick perusal of their section of the documents would reveal anything unusual. The advantage of the detail was that it made the bids more precise.
I can't say that I relish wading through a technical book to prepare a bid but the real problem with too much detail is that you may be unwittingly eliminating a builder who would do a fine job for you. He may spot some details in your plans that don't make sense to him and that will either grossly inflate his price or simply cause him to pass.
Piffin is right on the money about the importance of establishing a relationship. I try to give my subs the simplest clear picture of what I want and let them figure out the best way to meet my needs. I usually learn something that I didn't know and am always glad that I didn't tell them exactly what to do.
I would have a difficult time with all those pages of facts and figures because I'd wonder if you counted the sheets of toilet paper missing each day after the work was done. I know this sounds trite but the fact is, an exact science this ain't! So many variables enter into the equation through the course of a job I more or less assume something adverse will happen along the way and it's part of my job to be able to deal with it. Though I can appreciate how hard you worked to get your figures, you seem to be trying to 'micromanage' the project and not a lot of us (me at least) are comfortable in that scenario. Piffin hit it straight about the relationship being so important to the success of a job. On the job there are tangibles and intangibles- materials and manpower are tangible. Weather, a death in the family, the sudden drop of a stock price are intangibles unable to be forecast. In a rigid outline, intangibles seem to be overlooked. One little thing can throw the whole gameplan into a spin. Do your job of knowing how you want the job to look, what materials you want, what level of quality you want, and let the contractor do his thing. A working relationship based on trust (once again a Piffin point) is crucial to the success of any project and you're immediately putting it out there, .I don't trust you so here's half your work done for you'. Would you 'choose' to work under these conditions?
This discussion is an important one. Establishing trust is difficult to do before the job begins- this means referrals are doubly important. I have built one house and will start another in a year or so- my long awaited dream house. Here is my BIG PEEVE_ how come contractors are so consistently bad about returning phone calls. In this day and age when everyone owns a cell phone I can't believe that a conscientous contractor cannot return his calls- even if it is just to say- - I got your call but I don't have an answer. I run a manufacturing business and if I decided not to return my customers calls I would lose their business- fast. Being an independent contractor is appealing to people who value their independence but guess what- someone else is writing the checks and deserves the courtesy of good communication.
Glad thats off my chest. Now I can sleep.
Piffin Points, EH?
I'm suprised to hear so much agreement with me.
Here's another point - one I hesitated to mention but it is applicable in some situations. an architect friend of mine admitted that he sometimes overloads his prints with supurflous information. He will do this especially when he wants to include notes or specs that might be opposed by a builder. He knows that if it is one of five or six notes, it will be read and commented on. If he hides it in volumns of notes, he is safe in assuming that it might never get read.
It's similar to what politicians do - baffle'm with BS so they don't notice what you're really up to.
Excellence is its own reward!
A little more detail about the house job. What we wanted was an exact knockoff of architect Sarah Susanka's (she writes the regular design column in FH) not so big house. You can see the plans for sale at the Taunton website. We bought the plans, 32 pp. of B size drawings that show all the built-in stuff, plus all the cabinetry layouts and details in kitchen and baths. We sourced all the lighting, the plumbingware, the special half-circle shoji screen fiberglass window, etc., etc. We found and bought the perfect lot, in the perfect neighborhood, to put it on. We got referrals by the local material suppliers for the best builders, only those qualified to do a highly detailed house like this. We met with all of them; there were four. All were given the plan set, plus all the specs for cabinetry, lighting, etc., that we had. The house is well documented with a number of interior and exterior photographs in Ms. Susanka's two books, and each of the builder candidates was given a set of copies of all the photos. One of the builders backed out quickly, because he had booked a very very large multi-year project, and could not commit resources. It was October, and we wanted an April start the following year. We let two months go by, and then began followups with the three remaining builders. All said they had not had time to look at the job yet. I began getting antsy, and started in on an estimate. Did a lumber takeoff, concrete and rebar and forming, drywall, roofing, siding and all exterior finish, windows, exterior and interior doors, cabinetry, built-in work, running trim. Gave all my figures to local suppliers and fed the results to the builders. Did this all late October through the holiday season. Began with more followups in January, and still they said they hadn't found the time yet to consider the job. I was communicating long distance with everyone. We were living 700 miles from where we wanted to build. We arranged for meetings with the three candidates in early spring, to see whether we could get any kind of bids, or estimates, or budgets, or something. When we met with them, in person, we still got nowhere. At that point we gave up, asked all to return the plans and materials we had given them (only one did), and went back to the material suppliers to get referrals for excavators, framers, foundation builders, etc., etc. What did we do wrong? We genuinely wanted to have the place done, turnkey, by a builder. We could have "trusted" and begun with them or any number of others, on a cost plus basis, but we would not do that, preferring and insisting on a hard-money bid instead.
gene.. one thing you did wrong is you got your timing wrong... you wanted to build in the middle of the biggest construction boom i've seen since i went in business for my self in '75...
your plans and specs probably sent the message that this was going to be a difficult job with a difficult owner with meticulous specs who was trying to get competitive bids.. net result... they all passed and took something else... because they had plenty of "something else"..
did any of them say.. " oh yeah.. susan saranksi's not so big house.. gee, i've really wanted to build that "... if you had come to me.. and convinced me that we were going to have a partnership... you with the money and the plans ... and me with the skills and subs.. we could have done business... but your timing was wrong and you never met the right guy.. or you met the right guy and scared him off... so..
how'd you make out ? get it built ok ?....you did post some pics a while ago right ?Mike Smith
Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Just out of curiosity, how accurate did your numbers turn out to be when you built the house?