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After almost 2 months of working side by side, NYC Firemen and Police had a tiff at Ground Zero Friday. Seems that the Mayor has decided to downplay the number of Firemen and Police to 24 each for recovery efforts.
A spokesperson for the firemen said they were only trying to get closer to the WTC site to say prayers for thier missing men when a small fight erupted, which resulted in arrests of some firemen.
I am on the side of the firemen—Guiliani did promise the families that the recovery effort wouldn’t end until every brick was turned over. One of the major reasons the firemen were so incensed was that Guiliani had said the machinery would be doing excessive scooping–which could deter the manned recovery crews from finding bodies.
Any comments?
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I think it's a sad commentary on where our "civilization" has gotten to and demonstration of the lack of staying power of the American psyche.
United we stood, for a few weeks.
*somehow the bottom line eventually becomes $$$$$$
*Guiliani said that it's time for a more organized method of sorting through the rubble then just random groups of helpers showing up and starting to dig. He said that the rubble is unstable and he doesn't want to loose an more fire fighters.But the firemen showed up anyway. And when asked to leave, they kept comming. So the police were given the unpleasent task of keeping their buddies out. The firenen were insistant that they weren't going to be kept out and there was some pushing and shoving. I'm sure it wasn't personal for anybody. Both sides were there to do what they felt they had to do.If it's for the safety of the firemen they should chang the way the clean up is being done. And Guiliani said that he'll have the fire dept come in to do any recovery on any firemen found.
*>somehow the bottom line eventually becomes $$$$$$ I think they found it. (the gold bars) Now it's business as usual. I'd say let the guys alone...if they want to dig and it's therapy for them, why not?
*True Ryan.Guiliani also stated that there are some major public safety issues with manned digging vs scoops.It's been 2 months--they need to get those bodies out for sanitation reasons.I agree with him; but also feel that the firemen should be able to go in and get their men. The firemen have promised the families of their fallen men; and they want to carry out what they promised and bring their brothers home.Guiliani should realize this, and respect their wishes--I can understand the conflicting issues, and it is hard to decide what is the best method to deal with them.
*is this paid time or unpaid time ?what is not being dicussed here ?NYC is big union town....the union will straighten it out.. with one million tons left to go.. it's not reasonable to have this done by manpower... let the firemen and police have representatives on site.. the rest should stay out....if the firemen are there.. why shouldn't the family members of the other 5000 people be there also...?guiliani is trying diplomatically to regain control of the situation.. the firemen are not helping their cause...
*I've gotta side with Guiliani. I guess the cold, hard truth of it is that NY has several thousand bodies decaying in the middle of downtown. That's gotta stop FAST. It takes so much less time to dig with the equipment and sort out the parts later.My heart goes out to all who lost loved ones there, and I feel miserable about taking this position, but the facts stand. It's gotta be cleaned up fast or NYC is gonna have a HUGE health problem.If the FDNY just wanted to say a group prayer and goodbye, they should have been let do so. That's just plain callous.
*Um, Mike,I haven't walked the terrain in Manhattan, but I assume the situation is mostly similar to the Pentagon site. All remains have been incinerated. Sad truth, but there it is. Tom
*Actually Tom--the NYC firemen reported a couple of days ago that they were still finding bodies intact. Not many, but one of the firemen found his best friend under the rubble.
*In the paper today there was a report that any police eligeable for retirement are going to grab it because their union contract says that after 20 years their pension is determined by their last year's earnings and many of them have gone over $100,000 this year due to WTC overtime. Although the retirement situation witht he fire department wasn't known yet, apparently the pay scenario is about the same. As the majority of firement at the WTC site are working as "overtime volunteers", that sure sounds like a powerful incentive. Having the specified 24 firemen on-site to do these now-rare recoveries seems like more than enough.
*I don't think it's safe to say "all" remains. Some, yes. Most, maybe. But the most likely scenario is that there are some bodies/parts still decaying. That and the fact that there are the incinerated remains of thousands still there may constitute a health risk. I've heard from someone who was there just a few days ago, and they said the stench was everywhere.IMO, the Pentagon went from rescue to recovery/demo so fast because they want the building repaired, and documents recovered now, not later. They have little use for sentimentality in this respect. They have a war to conduct.Mike
*Very true Phill.The FDNY Union rep said they just wanted to go on site to have a group prayer. If that's the case, they should have been let in, and let leave.Mike
*> I haven't walked the terrain in Manhattan, but I assume the situation is mostly similar to the Pentagon site. All remains have been incinerated. Actually, WTC should be very different. The jet-A burned very hot on a few floors very high up. Most of the damage was done by the weight of the floors above the fire pounding the buildings down into the common "bathtub" foundation which extends under most of the complex, and goes down 70 feet below grade. From one person I know who was there, there were far more jumpers than ever reported before the collapses. A great many people were trying to get out via the stairs. Therefore, it seems likely to me than most of the bodies will be found rather low in the rubble, and likely will have been insulated from the intense fires by the remains of dozens of floors. It appears that the strong exterior shear walls contained most of the weight within the footprint of the buildings, and collapsed inward. So far, less than 500 bodies have been recovered, and it seems likely that these were people who were either trapped above the fire floors, or who were on the ground near the buildings when they came down. People who went towards the WTC before the collapse to look likely were overcome by the dust cloud.-- J.S.
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After almost 2 months of working side by side, NYC Firemen and Police had a tiff at Ground Zero Friday. Seems that the Mayor has decided to downplay the number of Firemen and Police to 24 each for recovery efforts.
A spokesperson for the firemen said they were only trying to get closer to the WTC site to say prayers for thier missing men when a small fight erupted, which resulted in arrests of some firemen.
I am on the side of the firemen---Guiliani did promise the families that the recovery effort wouldn't end until every brick was turned over. One of the major reasons the firemen were so incensed was that Guiliani had said the machinery would be doing excessive scooping--which could deter the manned recovery crews from finding bodies.
Any comments?