Customer is stocking up hardi trim in the garage for an up coming project. I’ve never been privileged enough to use it yet.
Does it nail OK with pneumatic nailer?
Cut with the diamond blade I assume?
Chip and break easily?
Tips and tricks I will need are appreciated.
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Replies
It takes a gun nail good.
Cuts can be made with a diamond blade, 4-6 tooth. The shears are a better way.
It does break on occasion. Especially with longer pieces.
I did a porch 2 years ago with hardi trim and it turned out great. Next one I am doing in Azek which will be in a few weeks.
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I have the Porter Cable shear for cutting the 5/16" thick siding products,,will it also work on the 5/4" trim boards???????????
BTW, beautiful looking job there!!!!!!! I would call myself a hack compared to your fine looking work!!!!
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I am not sure if your shears will cut 5/4 stock. I didn't realize your trim was that thick. We do it quite different here.
Sounds like a $99 chop saw and diamond blade might be the right tool for the job. Something you won't get too attached too, because it will take a beating ingesting that dust.
BTW You are here and that seperates you from hacks.
BTW You are here and that seperates you from hacks.
Thanks for that.
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Nice work! I'm thinking you showed us that pic before - it looks familiar. Tell me about the material that you used on the arches - bottoms and sides.
I have posted it before, that picture was taken in the fall of last year. Been in use for almost two years and still looks good.
I framed the arches out of 7/16's OSB and blocking 6" OC in between the arched sheets. The points where the columns hit the arches are framed solid with LVL's for load bearing purposes.
Then I skinned the framed arches with 1/4" sheets of Hardi. PL and nails to fasten them together. I put up the side panels first, then the bottom next.
The joints didn't come out all that great because I cut the arched sheets with the shears. Left areas where alot of caulk would have been needed. So I cut some 3" strips and lapped the joints, it looked great then.
Good enough to sell another job like this to other HO's on the other side of the lake.
Wow, What a beautiful deck! You are a fantastic carpenter!
I used hardie trim once and that was once too much. Use Azek or if you want a cement product try Miratec. I just finished a job using Certainteed PVC, the premade corners look great.
From the little expierence I had working with it (one house) it breaks very easily. That is why it comes in 10' max length (I think?). I found that I had to be very careful in handeling it. Better still to have 2 people pick up each peice.
I like the Hardie siding and soffit a lot. Don't care for the trim from an installation standpoint.
I am not going to have a choice because the customer is buying it up now and storing it for use on a later project. I saw it in the garage and cringed. Some people totally outsmart themselves.
So if a piece breaks, I guess there will just be splices in the trim. Oh well.
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On the good side I'll say that it should make a lifetime exterior.
BTW - if your customer is stacking it in his garage I'll bet $10 that he has already broken a few pieces so he'll be expecting more broken pieces. Once you get the hang of handling it, it isn't that bad.
The fact that it doesn't come in long pieces makes for more splices.
Do you know what size material he has purchased?
Try to plan your trim job to include as little ripping as possible. It's very messy, and once you get a piece ripped down to say 2" wide it's quite fragile. Or. if a specific size is needed make the guy buy what you need, again rather than ripping.
I guess I should have looked closer, been busy doing other things and sometimes have tunnel vision. Looks like 5/4x4 and 5/4x6. We are planning to re-side and re-window the house some time soon so I'm not quite sure what it all is for. I'll get direction when the time comes.
And, yeah, ripping it will suck ask. Dust everywhere,,,,,I'm not real fond of breathing in life shortening substances.
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I pre-drilled and hand nailed the Hardi trim. Time consuming.I found that the pieces were stable enough if you were careful and carried them only on edge.
"Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd."
~ Voltaire
I'm using the trim on a job right now. We nail it on with a Hitachi coil siding nailer, and don't nail closer than 1/2" to the edge. If you're feeling lucky you can nail 2 pieces together on an outside corner. If you're doing lap siding there's miter-look aluminum corners you can install for the bungalow look, and you avoid that expensive 1x4 trim.
Chop saws are nice, but sacrificial in this case. Use your neighbors Ryobi and remind him of all the favors you've done for him. (the diamond blade will run you about $100, that's more than we paid for the Tool Shop saw at Menards... with a 2 year no questions asked warranty, booya)
Lap siding will maginify irregularities in the framing, but resist the urge to fix it, as you'll probably make it worse. Plant a tree to block long uninterrupted views (ie, garage walls visible from the sidewalk)
Oh, I don't know where your HO got his stuff. But the Hardi trim of just one year ago is far inferior to what showed up for this job. Factory cuts can now be trusted for square (not beveled), and the corners are crisp.
Good luck,
CC
Just curious...I will be re-siding my house this summer and already have the Hardie plank. I have yet to get the trim materials as i can't decide witch way to go. My supplier sells all, Hardie, Aztek and exterior MDF. They insist the MDF is the way to go. I'm a cabinetmaker by trade so cutting and milling won't be a problem but is this really the best material for inside/outside corners and window / door build-ups? They tell me it's good for life??? The one thing i do like is the sheets so i can cut to size whatever i want or need. What do you think? Cheers!
Azek is my favorite, it also comes in sheets.
If you don't quite have the $$$ for Azek look into Miratec. It's an MDF like trim material that has a pretty impressive warranty and is the least expensive of the materials mentioned here in this thread. It is very easy to work with. Only caveat is that I'd recommend priming all end cuts, rips, etc. It's a pretty popular material both here at BT and in the area where I live and is used as trim with Hardie claps. It comes in 16 footers and in many sizes so your job ends up with fewer joints. There are other similar products, but to my knowledge none have the warranty of Miratec. We still use the Hardie soffit material for that application though.
Oh - and for any moldings like crown mold, bed bold, shingle mold or brick mold use celular PVC. There are several brands out there.
PS - are you going to trim around your windows with 5/4x4 or similar? Or just let the siding butt up to the windows?
Edited 4/15/2007 8:34 am ET by Matt
How well does Miratec hold up? My local yard sent it to me free on a job to try it. They wanted me to kind of field test it. I trimmed out one door opening with it and really didn't care for it. Dusty cutting and flimsy.
I am not sure if I like it.
Like I said Miratec is very popular here in both new construction and re-sides. I think it holds up fine but have only been having it installed for about 10 years. It has a 30 year warranty. It is basically a treated MDF. As far as being "Dusty cutting and flimsy" you are right - it is not as rigid as wood, but definitely more rigid than Azek and not nearly as fragile as Hardie trim. The dusty part - true enough, but so is Hardie only that dust is a known health risk. I'll be the first one to say that Azek is a better material, but, for example a 5/4x8 is around $50 - Ouch!! Gives a whole new meaning to the "measure twice, cut once" saying if you happen to be the one paying for it.
We had this conversation before - when one has financial responsibility for a project opinions tend to be a bid different and the word value comes into play.
All:
Another plus with both Miratec and Azek is that you have less waste because of the long lengths and the uniformity (is that a word) of the material. With Hardie trim you have more waste due to shorter stock length and breakage. Of course with wood trim, you have culls.
Another installation factor is the weight of the materials being discussed here. I'd say Azek is the lightest - maybe similar to wood, Miratec is maybe 30% heavier, and Hardie is by far the heaviest.
I just read down through this entire thread, so I'll throw my two cents in. I've been slowly making headway on an old house for my fiancee and myself. I've been siding it with Hardi, and really like the results. I'm very meticulous so all my joints and splices look a ton better than any of the houses being flipped in our neighborhood. It's amazing to me what some guys will live with as acceptable results. Anyway, a number of those quick jobs are using Miratec--I'm seeing it more and more. I'm still trying to decide whether to give it a go myself for fascia, but I guess I associate it with cheap jobs, so I'm still biased against it at this point. For all my corner boards and window and door trim, I have been using treated decking. I know it sounds nuts, but when I can get really clear stuff, take the time to dry it, mill it to size, and then prime it before install, it actually stays put really well. I've been using it a number of years, so I have confidence in it, and theoretically, it should hold up as well as anything (I hope?). Of course, it has dimensional limitations. The funny thing in all this is that we are all constantly trying to find the latest greatest solution to rot resistance. Our house was originally sided with poplar lap, and all the trim was poplar as well, but since there was no insulation in the walls and the house could breathe, that trim and siding had very little if any decay.
I may not have added much to the discussion with all this, but I appreciated reading the rest of your comments.
Here in NC in the coastal areas they often use quite a bit of KDAT treated lumber for trim. They have some rather harsh environmental conditions to deal with what with storms and the 'salt air' and all. See attached pic. I use some KDAT on home exteriors myself like for railings and window sills.
In case you don't know, KDAT is Kiln Dried After Treating - or basically re-dried lumber - it is kiln dried twice. It takes paint rather well. Here, we can get it in #1 1x6 and 1x8 which would be a good candidate for fascia.
BTW - how about entering a location in your profile so we can have an idea of what area you live in. The reason I ask is that I know, for example, the PT lumber they get on the left coast is an entirely different product. Is your SYP?
Thanks for the info. Yeah, after I finished up the post I thought I should have mentioned where I live. I'm in Nashville, Tn., and yes, it is SYP. Thanks for the photo. We surely can't get anything in 1x here that looks anywhere near as nice as the stuff you're using. In fact, back home in Ohio I could get 1x8 treated and would just have to dig for the best of it, but it doesn't seem to be readily available in Nashville, and I'm afraid I'm too selective to order a batch that I can't pick through. You're right about regional differences, though. I'm doing some work right now about an hour northwest of Chicago, and it amazes me how many buildings up here have cedar shake roofs. Even Home Depot has a fairly decent selection of cedar decking and 2x4, 2x6, 1xwhatever. I wish we had that in Nashville. Even nice, thick rough-sawn cedar is readily available here in the Chicago area. Oh, and it all seems to be the good western red cedar, not the inland red cedar generally available in central Ohio.
we've been using the miratec now for five or six years. Before that all the exterior trim was cedar. Miratec is easy to use and it paints up well and seems to hold up if big if , you prime the cut edges. The only draw back is that it seems to shrinkup in overall length. The worst part of it is it seems to be random. I assume that sometimes you get a batch that "fresher" than others from the factory. All I can say is keep it as dry as possible before install. If it hasn't been laying around the yard for the past 6 months you should get minimal shrinkage. The dust is miserable . If its a still day or the wind is blowing the wrong way I can't cut for more than a couple hours with out a splitting headache. Wear a n95 or better respirator
The different materials in different regions is a hard thing to get used to.
I did alot of work this winter in East Nashville, Tennessee and went to Home Depot alot. Couldn't find hardly anything I wanted to use. Because it's not used in that region.
Plywood clips stumped most of the staff, I eventually found one dusty bag buried. They don't stock anything 14' long.
I got laughed at when I asked for 2x10's for rafters, "what are you building a bomb shelter?" I had a hard time adjusting to your area with little snow loads.
Made framing alot easier though, using boards half the size all day.
I have a question about alot of the houses I saw there, the ridge cap on the roofs. What are those tile looking deals? Asphalt shingled roofs with clay tile caps. Is there a reason for them other than cosmetics?
Thanks for the message. Sorry it's already next Friday, but it has been busy. My house is in East Nashville--Lockeland Springs, so you weren't too far away. I assume the clay caps on shingled roofs are leftovers from previous roofs, but I'm not sure what type of roofing would have utilized them. I'd say very few of these old houses in Nashville were framed heavily enough to support tile roofs. Many had either cedar or steel originally. Yes, your use of 2 x 10 rafters would be unheard of. Our house has rough-sawn 2 x 4 rafters 20 feet long! Think the roof sags? I have yet to shore it up. That's coming up this month--can't tell you how much I'm looking forward to it.
I saw that clay tile ridge cap on alot of houses in that area. I was just curious as to why. It was a little different to see asphalt shingled roofs with those for a ridge cap.
The house I was working on was very underframed. Each rafter was made up of two 8' 2x4's overlapped a foot with two nails in the overlap. The roof had sagged 3" in the center. I spent a day or two jack up the pieced together rafters with a railroad jack. I got lucky and did this in winter you better hurry up before that job is totally miserable.
So if you call somebody an idiot and he come over your house and stomp you into a mud puddle and walk you dry, hey its your fault. ---Brownbagg
THe cost of Azek is it's only real down fall.
When I give a price on a job most of the material cost is the Azek itself. Well above and beyond the rest of the materials.
And like you said when the word value comes into play Azek usually loses to the many other options out there. Which means I lose the job.
Treated MDF is a good description of Miratec. Exactly what it reminds me of. It's good to hear that you guys have been using it for 10 years. I won't be so judgemental of it in the future.
Hey thanks for the reply! I'm actually adding two inches of rigid foam insulation so i need to make up that thickness at the openings. I did want do a nice build up around the doors and windows first and then butt the Hardie plank to that ( 1/8" gap of course ). I'm not one to sacrifice a few dollars over quality work and materials...must be the perfectionist cabinetmaker freak in me, so i'de rather work with the better materials suited for the project. Can I biscuit and glue ( polyurathane ) the trims together first?
>> Can I biscuit and glue ( polyurathane ) the trims together first? << I have never tried the biscuits on exterior trim so I'd have to say I don't know for sure but I'd bet money that it wouldn't work well with Hardie trim. With the cellular PVC materials like Azek the PVC glue literally welds the pieces together so I'm not sure it is necessary in that case although I guess you could.
Thanks Matt. I'm use to the shop so when I do poke my head out the door, I'll be dragging out pre-cut, pre-glued and assembled trims to be installed on site. The one thing I've read that the other guys are saying about the Azek is the shrinkage which has me a bit concerned about restricting movement by gluing for example corners together in the shop. Have you noticed above average movement with this material? Sounds like you have experience with exterior trim work and Hardie siding so you may be able to answer this...I'm adding 2" of foam board before siding so I'll have to make up that thickness around my openings, what do you think about using spruce or the like as a build-up for the bulk of the 2" and then capping off with a thinner Azek board for durability? What thickness should I expose on the edges where the siding will butt to the trim. ( I plan on installing with the 1 1/4" min. overlap ) Cheers!
>> The one thing I've read that the other guys are saying about the Azek is the shrinkage which has me a bit concerned about restricting movement by gluing for example corners together in the shop. Have you noticed above average movement with this material? << This is something that has always concerned me about PVC type trims, and yes it does expand and contract more than wood. Personally I wouldn't be so concerned about gluing the long edge of 2 pieces together though. I'd be more concerned about the length of the boards changing - not the width. I've actually used construction adhesive behind it be make sure it held in place without installing too many nails so as to look ugly. Really though Stinger would better at answering Q-s about Azek and stratigies for dealing with the expansion/contraction than I - I have never had a whole house trimmed with Azek - Doors and windows?: yes, moldings around the eaves and rakes?: yes, columns?: yes, etc: yes. Whole house?: no. Also check out their web site: http://azek.com/
BTW - I believe that Azek now makes pre-assembled corners.
Really though, before you get too excited about Azek, do your take-off and price out your entire project. Don't forget the glue - it's not cheap either. As far as I know all the one bys and 5/4 boards come in 18' lengths.
>> Sounds like you have experience with exterior trim work and Hardie siding so you may be able to answer this...I'm adding 2" of foam board before siding so I'll have to make up that thickness around my openings, what do you think about using spruce or the like as a build-up for the bulk of the 2" and then capping off with a thinner Azek board for durability? << If I understand correctly it sounds fine, but to clarify, personally I wouldn't leave any fir exposed. >> What thickness should I expose on the edges where the siding will butt to the trim.<< Again, if I understand correctly, 3/4" (1x?) can work but 1" (5/4x?) is much better.
BTW - I'm having a little trouble remembering who is who on this thread, but if you are going for a bit of a historic look, personally I like Hardie with the smaller exposures than the standard 7" exposure stuff they sell at the big box stores. IIRC we used 6.25" (5" exposure) on some historic looking houses that I built. See attached pic. Sorry about the big pic size - I'd have to charge you extra to make it smaller :-). For regular subdivision houses the 7" exposure is fine.
This is house I sided last year, all the white trim is Azek. THe corners on the bay windows were fun.
As of a few weeks ago there was no real shrinking problems. I had to check after reading about some of the shrinking issues here. Lucky so far.
The one thing I don't like is the price.
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EDIT: There is also a product that a local yard here is selling called Excel, I believe. Same as Azek, but it's a cheaper option.
Edited 4/16/2007 6:59 pm ET by Stilletto
I've not seen the exterior MDF here in Iowa. Exterior trim was painted cedar not that long ago, then Hardie fiber cement, now Azek and Royal Wood. I used Royal Wood on my own house last summer. It's available at my Menard's and goes on sale periodically so I waited and bought them out. I liked the wood grain appearance better than Azeks, though the smooth side on Royal Wood looked too smooth. You know, dead give away as a plastic product. I didn't paint mine, just dabbed the nail heads. My only issue is during the winter on my 9' window the trim shrunk 3/8". I think this is the case with all PVC based trim though. I will try a different line of caulk, any suggestions would be appreciated.
One last thing. As far as I could tell the Royal Wood cut as easily, installed just the same, and cost much less than Azek. If you're not going to mill it, you'll only notice the difference on exposed ends.
CC
Atached pix are dormer trim out using all Hardie. 7 1/4 sideing & facia, 1/4 x 12 soffit, 5/4 trim plank in various widths. Also cased the lower windows in 5/4 x 4. I think this is the perfect complement for brick veneerd houses. I didn't have any problems sawing the 5/4 with the good Hardie Diamond blade. But reccomend planning other work so you don't have to rip the 5/4. I did find it best to predrill nails in touchy locations otherwise used a frameing nailer
Sorry the pix are not the best & project obviously not complete at that time
Thanks for the nice photo's. The work looks totally awesome!!
I have learned much reading everyone's experiences/information. Especially ripping, and carrying thin pieces, and being careful when nailing close to the edge.
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it definately chips easily, you need a special saw blade to cut it and special screws to fasten it. Other than that paint it every 3 years or so.
For my own personal project I had it delivered twice: one load was delivered banded to the pallet of my 8 1/4" siding, and just the flexure of the pallet coming off with the Moffat was enough to bust every stick in two or three places. I managed to salvage a few broken pieces long enough for my dormers.
Broke more than a few more later. Brittle as hell. Very tough to handle by yourself.
I cut it with a sacrificial (Princess Auto) metal abrasive chop saw with an ordinary abrasive blade. Lots of dust but clean cuts and no bust-out. Hand nailed with great difficulty, but pre-drilling just broke one drillbit after another.
I'd never use it again- but it's durable enough that I hope never to HAVE to.
I re-sided last year with Hardie panels. I used the plank, 5/4 trim, staggered shingles and even some of their panels. For the trim boards I used the brad nails (permitted in specs, but has a waiver about the nail rust). I tried using screws (#8) to attach the trim boards and I found that to be a very bad idea due to the amount of touch up. Allow time for the chaulking chore and paint touch up, as this is the biggest draw back in my opinion. I used a diamond blade on my a cut off saw and another for the skil saw, painless to cut, but a mask is the absolute minimum. In my stupidity I didnt wear it quite all the time early on and about a week after starting I noticed a sore throat.
Dunno if it helps, but thats my two cents.
I have predrilled/hand-nailed and air-nailed the 5/4.
The predrill obviously takes more time.
Air nailing can give a split or a chunk if not careful.
Paints and finished real nice.
Loved the finished look, and the confidence that it will probably be around after I am gone.
I have also use Miratec, and I am not a fan. The only time I will ever use it again is if Hardi stops making 5/4.
It's plusses are the lengths, sizes available and apprarently the durability (?).
It is a pita to get the nailholes covered well (actually required sanding down), looks plasticy (is that a word) to me when painted. And when you barely bump it, the flakes off easily. just my $ 2/100
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WWPD
What do you mean, when you bump it it flakes off easy? After installation? After or before painting?
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either.
difference is once it's painted it comes off in a chip instead of a fiberous mass.
These are just my experiences with the product.
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WWPD
Doesn't sound great to me. More cons than pros. I work with much western red cedar and that is my choice, but this particular customer has already purchased the hardi 5/4" trim so I believe I'm going to be stuck working with it.
Thanks for the input.
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