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I’ve got a question that’s been buggin me for a while now. Where I live (41 inches of rain a year and no dry seasons) there are a bunch of new houses going up mostly built by a builder who bills himself as a “Custom builder” Being curious and somewhat nosy, my neighbor and I have been frequently inspecting the work as it goes along. Without exception, all these houses are framed, wrapped in Tyvek except for the garages that have a little bit of wafer board and mostly foam insulation. Then the builder proceeds to do all the inside work up to and inlcuding drywall and taping and painting before siding the house. The roof usually goes up after the drywall is put in. These houses take so long to build that the exposed wood products get grey from the elements and you can see some warpage.
Does this make sense? I talked to one of the new homeowners and they said this builder has a good reputation for quality. Now, I know this builder doesn’t do quality work from the sloppy way the insulation is done – all kinds of holes around windows and doors, but is it accepted practice now to build the inside before the outside? I won’t even go into the lack of substance in the walls (could easily put a fist thru them).
Just wondering and glad my house was built a while ago… Mary
Replies
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First the nose...then the fist...
What's next! ha..ha..
Rome wasn't built in a day..
Niether's any custom-built home..
You may not know what you're looking at. Why?
Because its not complete. Do you work for the CIA?
Or neighborhood watch. Geesh,
Dan-O
*Mary,Are you inpecting these building sites with the builder's permission or just plainly trespassing? Have you been invited by the builder to look the work over? Job sites are not the safest places for anybody, builders or the public. You have reasonable questions about buildings. If you are inspecting the house with builder's permission, great. If you are skulking around the job site after hours, ask your self if you would like people sneaking around your home or office/work site when you are away. Construction sites are not public parks. The nature of your post suggests that you have not asked the builder the same questions you are asking here. Try a little more direct approach if you have not already done so, you may be surprised to find the builder willing to tell you all about things. Or maybe not, that's their choice. I encourage your curiosity about the building process. Satisfy your curiosity in a way that you would approve of if someone was investigating your way of making a living. I don't like people on my job sites without permission for their own safety and mine as well.Be safe...
*Come on guys! The lady was asking about current practice and you give her a lecture about trespassing. That is ducking the question big time. Plus, most everywhere I've ever been the neighbors always visit while doing their evening walks.
*Mary-Most good builders finish interior before siding because the weight of the interior causes the house to squat. This would leave bulging siding and the potential of widows hitting brick sills. If the house is wrapped what is left exposed turning grey means nothing. Finally rating a builder by the insulation job just aint fair. There are too many resons this may be. Maybe the new homeowner decided to do it to save $ because they are overbuilding? I've had more then 1 job look like crap because the customer was to cheap to have it professionally painted, and did it themselves.
*"(41 inches of rain a year and no dry seasons) roof usually goes up after the drywall is put in."Is this now "standard" practice, that is the big question. Is there a big sheet of blue plastic over the rafters?If you did the first sentence in Nov in Seattle you'd not have much drywall left.
*It don't sound right to me,I've never put up the rock until the roof is done.On thr other hand we often do exterior plywood then tyvek and then go inside to do finishing before the siding.It depends on weather conditions and what else has to be going on at the time.VincePS I've never not at least put the plywood on the exterior.I wouldn't leave the framing exposed and do the finish inside.
*Couple of thoughts Mary,On the subject of building inside/out.....No harm and actually better if the roof is on and a barrier is applied on the sheathing. This practice came, in my experience, from having to cope with lead time on Bricklayers and brick, (sometimes beyond 6 months) and siding subs. And with siding, like carpet, it's one of the easiest things to damage, hardest to repair and looks the best right before closing the deal.The insulation defects are common, from inspectors checking things out, builders making sure there is no moisture to average Joe's stopping by after hours to scope out the framing, wiring, and window brands. Any ethical D.W. sub will "fill" in the gaps right before he hangs rock.As for your house, believe me, I'm glad they don't build them like they used to.
*Mary, I watch some of the tract homes around here go up as you describe. It is appalling. For the most part houses are built with no craft in mind only dollars made. From the choice of building materials to construction techniques we build with only dollars in mind.My current home is 100 years old and will last another 100 years which is more than I can say about houses being built today. Simply, common practice does not make it good practice.And Geoff's comment about good builders ... if the walls settle that much from the weight of interior to create bulging siding and drooping windows, I would not call that good building. We traditionally finished siding as insulation, electrical, plumbing were being completed, then moved inside and rocked and trimmed. I have never seen any problems with settling except in sub-par framed houses.Stick with your opinions, they are correct.walk gooddavid
*Mary, Sure isn't the practice around here, especially if the rock goes in before the house is dried in. Watch out for a squatting house it's about to take a dump. The science behind framing is such that the framing will support all finishes inside and out. I've never seen a properly constructed house bulge. Skip ps Talk to the builder.
*hey, Mary wrote:> The roof usually goes up after the drywall is put in.does that mean electrical is done before the roofing too?where do you live Mary?I don't know if that would pass code in WA.Mary, when you say roof, do you mean sheathing (plywood/waferboard), sheathing plus paper (tar paper, etc.), or roofing (shingles, &c.)in Seattle where some old homes are solid and some are c**p, same as it ever was?,George
*In our town in the Northeast, the outside has to be done before the electrical (to make sure no nails from the outside puncture wires). The electrical and rough plumbing have to be done before the structural inspection (to make sure all holes drilled in framing are done to code). And the structural inspection has to be done before insulation and drywall (so that none of the framing is covered up for inspection). After the insulation is inspected, then we can drywall. This seems logical to me. It sounds strange that they'd be allowed to finish the interior before the exterior. But we have mostly wood shingle and clapboard around here (lots and lots of nails). Maybe it's different elsewhere with different exterior finishes...
*Mary -As an architect mentions in Stewart Brandt's book "How Buildings Learn", most houses built after the 70's are junk, including high end customs. Work has to meet only one requirement - good enough to get paid, and since subs are used for everything in tracts, no one has to follow their own work. As in many areas of American culture now, the bottomline rules. If you want good work, find a builder who is passionate about the houses he/she builds, and who doesn't want to give them up to the owner(s).And no one, even the tracts, builds out here (CA/NV) from the inside out.Best - Don
*Thanks for the responses. interesting that in CA/NV it isn't done this way, yet those states are a lot drier then here (MD).In answer, I meant the roofing shingles by roof. The plywood or waferboard - usually waferboard in these houses - is up with the tar paper for several months before they get around to putting up shingles. There's very little real plywood used in these houses. Only the corners get a little waferboard. The walls are nothing but foam panels and studs.And yes, they do the electrical once the sheathing is on the roof rafters and the stud walls are up. Sometimes they don't even have all the windows in before starting the electrical. Siding and shingles are the last thing to go up. There's usually no brick work in these houses.And as for us "inspecting" the work. We never touch anything except the floor with our feet and are careful not get into any danger. If something isn't done enough to look at safely, we wait until it is. And if a builder is afraid of people looking at his work in progress, then he probably has something to hide. That's the first suggestion for hiring construction workers - go look at some work they do.I also don't know how well these houses are inspected. One of them had an arm of the septic field going uphill from the tank.One of the new houses going up was done by a different builder and was quite different - lots of real plywood. But it still spent a fair amount of time with just tyvek, tho it got the roof shingles up pretty fast on that one.Mary
*Mary, I feel like weighing in even though I don't really know much about this particular builder and situation. It seems to me that he could do better but that he may have more of a problem controling his subs schedules than with doing good work. That is symptomatic of an outfit that does bottom dollar work. Subs work for others who pay better first and then hit his jobs when they are caught up. Make sense?Following that thought - Do bottom feeders do top dollar work - not as a general rule.BTW some septic systems are designed to use a pump to run effluent uphill to the field - not all is as it seems.PS - You are welcome to inspect my jobs.
*Mary, If the roof is tile they may hold off installing it until much farther along in the process. You would see this if the roof was tarpapered and lath would be on top of the felt. Could this be the case? Ya never know. Houses today are better built than even a couple of years ago. Hard to say about this builder though.
*mary, I am curious if this is a local builder or a national(ryan, ryland, pulte,etc.) type builder? a lot of people think that the "custom" home they are in from one of the big builders is fully custom, when it is actually a modified standard plan house. usually the big builders finish them fairly quickly, so they don't have time to turn "grey", but if the panelized components sit in the weather for even a short time, they will turn grey. what is the length of time you are talking about? if I missed this in your post, I am sorry.as for the builder you are watching, I agree that you might want to ask him/her yourself. act like a customer and ask for a tour. youmay find out that he is a good builder who puts extra time into the structure and finish of the house. you did state that the owners are satisfied.
*Ok, 1st of all... Geoff's first paragraph about the house "bulging" was complete rubbish. However his 2nd sentence was right on the mark, been there seen that, too many times. There is no such thing as a drywaller who will add insulation to a wall before he rocks it. It's not his job nor is it his responsibility to determine whether a wall is insulated right or wrong. For all he knows there might be some factor involved which he is unaware of. Bottom line... Drywallers are payed by the square foot, not by how concientious he is. "get in throw it up get a check"If the interior is being finished before the shingles go on , then You are correct Mary, they are doing it wrong. HOWEVER - My guess is these homes are getting Vinyl or aluminum siding, in which case it really doesn't matter if the siding is on or not when they finish the interior, since the tyvek is the only thing keeping water out of the house. That said, I don't think it is right for you to be walking through these houses when they are not around. Somehow the general public has the accepted opinion that a house under construction is somehow "public domain". As louis said, You don't want people skulking around your house when you are not home. If you came home and caught me "inspecting your house from the inside and my response was "I didn't touch anything except the floor with my feet" I don't think you would be very amicible towards just letting me go with a polite "Oh in that case...." Now don't get me wrong Mary, I'm still on your side as far as this builder being sub-par and as David said "Stick with your opinions, they are correct" .I just think you should go and read the "close calls" thread before you feel so cavalier about "inspecting" someone elses home.
*Mark....houses DO squat, and the siding on a two story WILL unlock itself. It is usually caused by the rim drying out, plates, or warped lumber in both of these places that eventually straighten when they get the weight on them. Good builders around here usually stock the drywall before siding to minimize the effect. Why do you think they make those lock lowering strips for vinyl and aluminum siding? So we can go back in 6 months when the place has dryed out and relock the siding.
*Good post Kieth C.People can learn from you. You ain't such a bad ass!I just came from a project that is just under way.I'm not there a day and already I got 'em comin' outa the woodwork..noses wit legs! ha..haDan-O
*I gotta think something has been misconstrued here. First off, as someone already said, you can't get electrical approved for "cover" here in WA unless the building is in the dry - that means the roof has to be on, no question. Without electrical approved for cover, you can't insulate or install drywall. I'd be shocked if building codes in Maryland were significanly different on these points. Even if code allowed you to wire without the roof on, I don't think it's very smart - water and electricity are a bad combination. As for whether homes were built "better" in years gone by, I can clearly remember folks saying that back in the 60's. The houses we build today might have less character, but I think with all the innovations, techniques, regulations and inspections, we make better use of materials and the average home is better built than ever before. At least, from what I see when I tear into older homes to remodel, that's my opinion.
*I've lived in states where paper dry-in was all that was required for electrical rough inspection. That don't make it right though.
*Mary - I've worked as a professional with houses from around 1740 to new construction today. If it is generalization that you want, in my opinion you'll find the best construction in this country during the sixty years from around 1870 (just after the Civil War) until around 1928 (just before the Depression). Labor was cheap and first-rate materials (like old-growth lumber) were plentiful. Better quality houses i canbe built today, but you see them all too little because labor is expensive and good materials have become far too scarce and costly as well.Good design, which in the period mentioned took the form of pattern designs (by architect - designers) adapted and constructed by master carpenter-builders has largely developed into a mish-mash of components ('estate' look, keystones, skylights, jacuzzis, volume ceilings, etc.) that developers think people want - housing as a product/commodity (to be turned over in a few years to the next buyer) rather than housing as i home. With respect to your specific observations on construction sequencing, Jim and some of the others have addressed those quite well.Jeff
*The houses are papered and tyvek'e.....other wise knows as dryed in. So they roughed in some wiring and/or plumbing....who cares? Not many "bunch of new houses" sneaks past a building dept. So I'm guessing it's all right. Jeff
*"I've worked as a professional with houses from around 1740 to new construction today."Jeff, you are old! How can you get insurance?
*Rip Van wrinkle had some kin named Buck
*If he's worked as a professional since 1740 how far back does he go as an apprentice?
*Like uncle Rip Van, he might've been sleeping on the job. The union card is probably old but I bet his pension has built up a lot of benes
*Thank you, Roger, I think that's enough Dumas commentary for now :o) especially since it i ismy birthday today and I am i considerablyyounger than 261 years old.Jeff
*happy happy, Jeff!!
*Tanks, Gumby.Pokey
*Well Happy birthday there methuselah !
*Happy birthday, Jeff! We should all buy you a beer over in the woodshed!Roger
*Roger that!
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I've got a question that's been buggin me for a while now. Where I live (41 inches of rain a year and no dry seasons) there are a bunch of new houses going up mostly built by a builder who bills himself as a "Custom builder" Being curious and somewhat nosy, my neighbor and I have been frequently inspecting the work as it goes along. Without exception, all these houses are framed, wrapped in Tyvek except for the garages that have a little bit of wafer board and mostly foam insulation. Then the builder proceeds to do all the inside work up to and inlcuding drywall and taping and painting before siding the house. The roof usually goes up after the drywall is put in. These houses take so long to build that the exposed wood products get grey from the elements and you can see some warpage.
Does this make sense? I talked to one of the new homeowners and they said this builder has a good reputation for quality. Now, I know this builder doesn't do quality work from the sloppy way the insulation is done - all kinds of holes around windows and doors, but is it accepted practice now to build the inside before the outside? I won't even go into the lack of substance in the walls (could easily put a fist thru them).
Just wondering and glad my house was built a while ago... Mary