Got a call from a friend of a very good client. “We’ve heard so much about you … seen your work … blah blah blah”. Couple have an older house in a yuppie neighborhood and had an archy draw renovation plans. He even stamped them, so I know he’s an archy. Written on the front of the plans is “bid as per plans, but include value engineering and code compliance issues as a separate item”. HO had the plans drawn a couple of years ago and sat on them … cold feet. Time is right, they think.
I told them that if they intend to do the work as shown, they would be better off scraping the house and starting over. Archy has an arrow and note in the master bath “move wall 6 inches” and it’s the wet wall. And he wants to expand the master bedroom by 10 inches, and that’s the exterior load bearing wall. What ever was he thinking?
HO then says “well Marty said that you’d tell us the truth, so we want to work with you to remodel the house and do it right.” Flattery. Should I raise my price cuz of the reputation, or drop it cuz they stroked my ego?
I’m sorry, I thought you wanted it done the right way.
Replies
Well you kow how it is.... it's a whole lot easier on paper than it is in real life. I guess it boils down to what I've learned recently - what's the job worth to you. Sounds like a night mare to me... or a challenge, that at the end you can say wow look what we did. All depends what you're up for and at what price. Good luck
If it was me,
first I would think it over real hard,
Id prepare a bid for me, as a turn key bid, not at time and materials think of all the things that could go wrong. worst case senerio. then add 20% then look at it as best case senerio add 25%
I never let the owner know its a nightmare, even if it is in my mind.
Ill say , well its a tough one, but can be done, and be confident
go to homeowner and talk about the compleixity of the job and that it can be a can of worms
get a feel for where they are amd hit them with worst case or tell them time and materils job, and it could go anywhere from your best case to your worst case numbers
one of the things that has gotten us to where we are now, as a biz in town, is doing just that, taking on jobs that others said was a nightmare or could not be done.
And doing it right and fair
however , if you have been following any of my recent nightmares, lock your subs and change orders in writing
I'd call the architect and ask about items like those mentioned.
I've already drawn things that confused a builder. I'm thinking of one case where I did a dormer in a certain way. Builder liked a different way and waaaaaaay overbid for the way I drew it. Client asked me whassup. I explained how the way I drew it should be LESS expensive and not MORE. That was passed on to the builder, who then got it and re-priced a lot lower. Point is, if the builder had just called or emailed (my name and number is on the prints), he could have avoided a bad estimate. I coulda cleared up his confusion in five min.
Side note to you, Ed: That Austin client has _still_ not made any decisions. He keeps insisting (in his mind) that he should be able to get the space he wants without regard that he likely doesn't have the budget for all he's seeking. He's not willing, it seems, to cut back anywhere at all, and so he's frustrated. That's why I haven't said further. I'm afraid it's a non-starter.
very good point
if you have any questions you should be able to call the archi or designer and see what they had in mind, or see how close they looked at it.
You guys need to read between the lines. The last part, about how to bid, was supposed to be tongue in cheek. The HO readily agreed that we need to rethink the concept and come up with a revised set of plans. The point of the thread was to point oput some odd design ideas. Sheesh, youse guyz.
Cloud, I understand what you're saying about designer intent vs contractor interpretation, but why would anyone think it would be economical to gain 6 inches in a bath by moving the wet wall?
I'm sorry, I thought you wanted it done the right way.
Ok Ed. You're right, I also missed the point. I was just about to respond and suggest that the simple solution, since they already trust that you are a straight shooter, wopuld be to tell them that they would be tons of money ahead to go back to square one and have the whole thing re-drawn by a "better" archy, but you're already on that.
Still, I know what you mean. I'm kind of a softy. Just stroke my ego a little bit and I start to give away the farm.
I doubt anyone would think it's economical. My point in talking to the architect would be to say, "You really, really want me to price moving a wet wall 6"? I can do it, but it's gonna cost the clients a bundle. Is there any other way to achieve your design objective?"My thinking is that it's possible the guy just disconnected his brain for a bit, and your bringing something to his attention might compel him to design a better way that avoids the expense. Maybe not, but for a simple conservation, there's a chance that y'all would find a way to save the client a lot of money and look like a hero.
Jimmy, I'm trying really, really hard not to point out spelling and grammar errors, 'specially after I did it to Pif and he roasted me, but ...
but for a simple conservation,
I'm sorry, I thought you wanted it done the right way.
That's neither spelling nor grammar...that's just you having fun at the expense of my dyslexia. Thanks a lot you heartless....Texan, you.Ahhh, just kidding. Just fingers moving faster than the brain is operating. Don't hate me be/c I type fast.
It sounds to me like they have already signaled that you are going to be their builder. Those two year old notes to bid as tho...mean nothing now.
Since changes are needed, and because I do design/build, that is my key to say, that since the plans are incomplete adn unbuildable as drawn, I am ready to get started on the redesign for a fee of $xxx dollars, sign this proposal, and sign that check, and we can get going.
The alternative is to ask them to get back together with the archy to provide a workable design and plan to build on.
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Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
Yeah yeah Dr Piffin, that's exactly what I had planned.
:)
I'm sorry, I thought you wanted it done the right way.
Great perspective. Telling them the limitations and costs regarding the current 2 yr old plan and the benifit of an alternate plan which realisticaly takes into account existing conditions and structure is the proper way to begin. They will always have the first set of drawings to "fall back on" if they find your set not to their liking.Be sure to ask them what they liked and what they did/ do not like about the original design. Find out their motivations and ideals. It sounds like they trust you and respect your abilities. What a wonderful way to begin the process.Frankie
Piffen - What happens then when they go back to thier best friend or brother-inlaw who also happens to be an archyteck, and tell him it's not buildable? That may not help your name in the community. I think I would be a little less gung-ho, and try not to insult the guy/gal that way. "I think these plans are a good starting point, but ..." Badmouthing somebody else or their work isn't the best way to go, IMHO.
Don
Pif lives on an island off the coast of Maine. Everybody's kind of direct, and a little cranky, out there across the water. ;-)
what words I use to describe such plans here and which words I would use in personal presentation are not exactly the same.I'm not a complete dolt, dimwit, just a half wit...LOLbut being direct is something some people think of as characterThere are a lot of us characters in smalltown America...
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Pif - There's no doubt that if people generally had a little more character, the world would be a better place. I've read a bunch of your posts and there's no doubt that you both are a character and have some!
Don
Thanks, Lemme buy you a drink...
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
You can always frame concerns in the form of a question, such as "I don't know if I'm understanding the situation correctly. You want to move a wet wall just to gain an extra 6" in the bath? Is that really cost effective?". Expressing opinions as a question is far less confrontaional.
well Marty said that you'd tell us the truth
Depends on which Marty told 'em . . . <g>
Sounds like the HO met the malpractice definition archy (you only have to be demonstrably better than the two worst in town, as the old saw goes).
Either that, or the archy passed off the project to an intern to get'rdun.
Ok, what to do? Be honest, tell them that the plans need going over with a fine tooth comb, and the time that'll take will cost. And it's xxx down up front. Not that their plans are bad, but that you don't want to give them a bad job.
"Move wall" is not bad--it just has a varying rate of cost is all.
The other thing that leaps out at me is that any pricing from "a couple of years ago," is only likely to be only vaguely close. That, and the permit office may object to drawings stamped two years ago--they may want fresh stamps, if only to reflect the changes in code in the intervening time.
I'm a little cheesed on the "code compliance" comment--that's an archy's job, is to check compliance, "dunno" is not a very good answer. But then the "value engineering" comment dovetails in to that level of cheesiness.
yeah, the notes are saying, "Here's my ideas, now you make them right - and cost effective to boot!" In short, this is a concept drawing, not a working plan.
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this is a concept drawing
Which now has to go past:
The Site Review Committee
then
The Plan Review Committee
then
The Permit Office
etc. . . . Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Hey Cap'n. - Stop following me around. i just left you at the last thread.
Don
Stop following me around. i just left you at the last thread
LoL! At 1921, I was making supper at the house <g>
Perhaps you need to stop being so cogent <g>
And no leaving me behind in other threads! It's not so much the being driven to drinking I object to; it's the lack of a ride home afterwards <g>Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)