Went to look at a project for a woman who called and said she ‘fired’ her contractor. Turns out the guy went bankrupt, and his license has been suspended. So she started hiring subs herself to finish up, and apparently, paying them in advance. It is a house she inherited, and is fixing up to sell. She claims to have paid out $100K so far (way too much for the neighborhood – houses here probably sell for about 200K at best, and I suspect way too much for what she’s gotten). Here’s what I found:
interior walls patched with stucco
outlets buried behind cabinets (she told me)
no weep screed on the stucco
baseboard used for casing, casing used for baseboard
interior doors a mess – terrible install
granite slab countertops and shower walls have been ordered – out of sync with the caliber of the job, and neighborhood
finished floor installed before the remodel work is completed
walls & ceilings already textured and painted, yet huge cracks throughout
lotsa goofy stuff – don’t have time right now to elaborate
I won’t post pictures here, since it takes the dial up guys too long to get them. But here’s a link to some photos.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/constructamundo/sets/72157603562529903/show/
She seems like a nice, trusting lady, who got took. I’d like to help her out. When I first met her she seemed like someone on the verge of a nervous breakdown.
CaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
Replies
It's terrible that this happens. The worst part is, it takes money to fix it right, when they have already spent more than they should.
Some people should be taken out of circulation.
Some people should be taken out of circulation
Apparently he is out of circulation - word on the street is he's bankrupt, and the Calif. state website says his license has been suspended. Sad part is, no way to get the money back that he wasted.View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
Unfortunately you can't make everyone whole after they've been taken like that.
All you can do is give her a great job. You do what you can...buic
She should fil a claim with bankruptcy court. Doesn't have to have paperwork. When I was bankrupt, I had unsecured, word of mouth loans from some relatives. Once they filed with the court, they didn't get the whole amount, but a large part of it.
thanks, I will pass that information alongView Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
I've never had a good experience finishing a job lke that. The expense to fix it right is usually "out of bounds" in the customers mind. Nobody wins in these deals, throw your cape away and look for work you can start from the beginning.
The expense to fix it right is usually "out of bounds" in the customers mind
I warned her about that from the beginning - but she didn't flinch. She just says she's burned out on the project and needs someone to take it over and finish it right. I don't think the issue is money per se, but just that her return on investment is very unlikely at this point. But there's no turning back now, its gotta be finished, so we'll see. I have yet to put a dollar figure together on this.View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
One of those times you want to call the govt. regulatory agencies.
Umm.. no.There are court systems for this.We don't need another layer of government interference. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Umm... Yes There are Contractor Regulatory Boards already in existence in Ca. to deal with situations like this. The owner should bring her case to them. Just because trash can be built in Mi. and gotten away with without State oversight doesn't mean the rest of the world needs to operate that way.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Your insult to the methods that MI builds to is useless. They build to the same standards as most of the non-seismic zones. my point wasn't about the standards, it was about having multiple layers of protection for homeowners, which adds unnecessary layers of expense to them. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Does Mi. have a Contractors Board that reviews complaints from owners, sets minimum standards, licenses builders, requires passing tests to get licensed, sets mandatory bond and insurance amounts, and acts as a mediation board during disputes? Ca. and other states do and the existence of these boards came about because of cases just like what Huck is dealing with. May be a layer of govt. You don't want to deal with , but it does exist and for good reason, the "market place" wasn't able to protect the consumer. If the consumers weren't on board with the idea I doubt it would be in existence. I am pretty certain that the MI. builders are about the same par as anywhere else, some Great , some OK, some ####, some Honest , some thieves. Other states just have a method for attempting to weed out the #### and thieves by force of law.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
They have a contractor's board here, but it seems they do very little to help either the consumer or the contractors. It appears to be mainly just another form of tax. If I call them, I can never get through. They have no email address. They have an office here in town, with a sign on the door that says in essence: go to our website, don't bug us here.
A friend found someone using his license number, and reported it. Their response was: Since he's not licensed, we have no jurisdiction over him. If he ever tries to get a license, we'll make it hard for him. Wow, great.
They tell us we have to be bonded, by law, in order to be licensed. Then they pass a law that its illegal to say that we're bonded in any advertising. Go figure.
The main protection, as I see it, is that there is a law requiring a license for jobs over $500 labor + materials. If you hire a contractor who's willing to circumvent that law, then you have to wonder what other laws or rules would he circumvent? And ex-con's are prevented from getting a license if they were involved in any kind of financial scam. But the scammers always have ways around those rules, don't they?
This guy was licensed, but his license is suspended apparently because of an unresolved civil action against him.View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
that's horrible. rather than shirking because the i.d. thief was not licensed. they should be protecting you because you ARE licensed.this board needs to be taken to task.
MI has a Department of Licesning are Regulation. It should be eliminated just like your California board. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Jim,
I was going to direct this paste to Huck..............
Sad part is, no way to get the money back that he wasted.
The contractor paid a fee for lisencing, the ho has paid taxes to the state to regulate this guy.
Now tell me the state bears no responsibility to make her whole?
BULL!
They took a bunch of coin from a lot of people and yet have provided no service to the consumer. That's taxation with out representation.
Eric[email protected]
much as it hurts, she probably should bite the bullet and put it on the market asap, as is, for whatever she can get.
and then, as dovetail said, see if there is any legal way to recoup something in the meantime.
re. the nice tile and granite etc, i wonder if she had originally wanted more modest work done and was talked into the inappropriately high end upgrades?
edit to add- this sort of taking advantage of people really makes me angry.
for all of you good and honest BTers, whenever you get bad reactions from potential clients, don't get upset, but remember that it's bozos like these that give the whole industry a bad name, and do your best to restore faith.
Edited 12/27/2007 3:49 pm ET by msm-s
much as it hurts, she probably should bite the bullet and put it on the market asap, as is, for whatever she can get.
This is my thinking too, but she says she'll wait, and rent it out until the market recovers, if need be. Man I hate to think of what renters will do to this place. And of course, that makes the granite slabs seem all the more out of place - on a rental house in a dumpy neighborhood!
Part of the problem is she's from Laguna Beach in Orange County, which is probably some of the most expensive real estate in the nation, and this is Kern County, 'little Oklahoma', the armpit of the state, and some of the cheapest real estate in California. Methinks she got confused. She'd get her investment back in OC, but not likely here.View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
About 20% of my work is following up on #### like this. I dont like it, but the sad truth is that there are a lot of contractors out there that do this sh*t. The good news is every single re-do that I have done has gotten me at least 1 great referral to a nice clean renovation.
I will bid the next one that calls too. It is frustrating cause every time I rip something out, I find at least 1 more thing to have to rip out because I cant cover it up.
It is what it is.
Do what you can for her and she will take care of you on the next project too.
This is a terrible situation but you need to steer clear of using your craft to perform heroic endeavors for sweet little old lady's. I sound jaded because I've done a couple clean up jobs in situations like this and took a big loss on one (eventually leading to the beginnings of my divorce) and had a bad experience on the other. If you see yourself as a knight in shining armor you are probably not seeing things very clearly. You will be likely to price stuff too low and end up making your own family pay for her problems. Her problems are not your fault, you don't want your family to pick up the tab.
Find a different project where the client is making good choices and will end up with a beautiful home that you will be invited back to in friendship for years to come.
I don't mean to sound heartless but your first responsibility is to your own wife and children. If you want to do good for charity choose a 501-C3 tax deductible one or your church.
Just my experience talking here.
------------------
"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
You make a valid point, one I need to pay attention to myself.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
...need to steer clear of using your craft to perform heroic endeavors for sweet little old lady's
Appreciate the thoughts, but not sure they apply here. I don't intend doing this for charity - I already explained my price will not be cheap, as I expect to make money on every job I do. She does not have a problem with that. This woman is a writer, and her husband is a prominent physician, in a very wealthy community of southern California. He is also politically active, which I suspect is the reason he has not been personally involved, leaving it up to her to run the project after the flakey contractor disappeared. They have money. What they need is someone who will give them a solid product for that money, not a song and a dance and substandard work.
She has already announced to all her previous sub's that I will be taking over the project. I keep telling her to wait until she gets my bid before she decides.
Taking projects that are a mess and straightening them out is one thing I do well, so this is right up my alley. I recently completed a 26-unit apartment-to-condo renovation that was a complete mess when I took it over. I got it back on track, and completed well under budget. Only problem was, the sub-prime market imploded. But my work was never an issue, and the job ended with final check and a handshake - and I made pretty good money doing it.
Which is not to imply that I don't appreciate your imput and hearing of your experiences. One reason I come here, and post here, is because I always benefit from the experience of others. Your words will make me tread all the more carefully, and I do appreciate your taking the time to post them. And I am sorry for the personal hardships you went through with your similar project.View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
Sounds like you have thought things out pretty well. Just wanted to reinforce the need for a cautious approach on any project like this. M------------------
"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
Boy have you got it right, it seems alot of carpenters have got this mindset, the I can do it better or cheaper or both. The, as you said," Knight in shining armor",syndrome whose going to save their customer from the evil high priced contractor.Keeps us in the poor house as a group.I like to think that that USED to be me, now I'm charging more than I ever have, and people are still thrilled . Maybe that means I'm still too cheap.
I'm spending a lot of time with the book "Small Giants" right now. It's about giving a kind of customer service that makes the customers (and employees)feel that you are "on their side" at which point they will pay a little more for that positive experience. Worth a read.M------------------
"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
Think I'll pick it up.
save the front door and knock the place down.
save the front door and knock the place down.
Take a closer look at the front door - its a beautiful door, but they installed the lockset like 24" high. Ruined it too!View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
Maybe a midget lived there. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Be careful Huck, not too long ago I ran into a recently divorced woman that turned out to be a wolf in sheeps clothing dude.
She bought a house started remodeling it then everyone split on her.
She stopped by one of my jobs wanting it finished, I gave her our hourly rate and proceeded to do the work shorlty after.
I felt sorry for her, she was a nervous wreck. Losing her kids in a custody battle, starting over in a new place.
A whole house worth of doors to cut down, hardwood floor refinisher hit her to circular stairs with his sander and broke them, no trim put on. Those types of things.
I cut her a deal on our hourly rate to help her out, nothing huge like $3 an hour.
She paid her first bill then after I finished she refused to pay the second. Stating that she could have someone do all that work for $12 an hour.
I am taking the dirty pirate hooker to court now. For about 3k. Maybe your potential customer has had alot of bad luck, in my case she was the problem, not the subs she hired.
Just a story I thought might be a little related.
Woods favorite carpenter
>> I am taking the dirty pirate hooker to court now. <<
Are you saying that the services she preformed weren't appropriate compensation for the services you performed? ;-)
She was hot for an older lady, maybe 35 yrs old. I would have traded services if I wasn't married. Woods favorite carpenter
She was hot for an older lady, maybe 35 yrs old.
What?!?! I hope you mean she was 35 yrs older than you. I assure you that a 35 YO woman is not "old". "Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
No kidding. 35 is just before peak for a woman. You guys are only good around 18 then it's allllllll downhill<G>.She can bench-press a Miata, not defeat Chuck Norris in hand-to-hand combat. Heart of Stone by CE Murphy
For someone who isn't even 30 yet, a 35 year old woman is "older". Thats the exact wording I used.
Woods favorite carpenter
35 isn't even considered "older". Piffin has BVD's older than that."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Points are well taken, and I will handle my contract and billing accordingly. Thanks for the heads-up!View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
I have a soft spot for people who got screwed, this is the first time it has bitten me. 99.9% of them are grateful and pay no problem.
I truely felt bad for her, she started crying on our initial meeting at her house. She had me hook, line and sinker.
I thought everything was cool, I itemized the first bill and it had the hourly rate on it. She paid no questions asked. Then when we finished she went nuts. Hourly rate was the same as the first bill.
Just a heads up, I hope you can help her. Only a small percentage of customers fit in this category.
Woods favorite carpenter
Submitted my bid this AM, 23K. She emailed back, When can you start? Gotta get a good progress payment schedule made up! View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
Good deal man, I hope things work out.
I had a bad experience, doesn't mean you will.
Woods favorite carpenter
I had a bad experience, doesn't mean you will.
Thanks for posting your bad experience, it will help me write a better contract and payment schedule. Like you, I have been bitten when going out on a limb to help someone out.
- Huck (never too old to learn)View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
I've been taken by senior citizens too. I only lost $125. I should have ripped his dentures out of his mouth run over them with my truck. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
>> So she started hiring subs herself to finish up, and apparently, paying them in advance. << and
>> finished floor installed before the remodel work is completed <<
So easy even a caveman could do it... Sounds like very possibly things went from bad to worse once the first contractor was out of the picture.
>> granite slab countertops and shower walls have been ordered - out of sync with the caliber of the job, and neighborhood <<
Even cave men have common sense...
And >> interior walls patched with stucco << There just had to be some hiring of low ball bidders going on here...
I don't do remodeling but here is an idea... Maybe you can break the job into sub-projects - (which obviously you do while estimating anyway) but actually bid and get paid that way. That way, if she doesn't pay for the 2nd project, then you don't go on the the third project. And, that way, it will give both you and/or the customer a way out if say, when the overall project is 1/2 done it just isn't working out for both of you.
There just had to be some hiring of low ball bidders going on here...
Apparently the orig. contractor was hiring lowball bidders - when he left, she kept his sub's - some of them, at least. The stucco patch guy was one of them (he also did the new stucco on the outside). When I saw what he did I told her "You gotta get rid of this guy, he's ruining your house, and now you have to pay to take this out, and then pay again to re-do it properly" Her response? "Can you tell him for me? But PLEASE be gentle, and don't hurt his feelings, he's such a nice guy!"
I don't do remodeling but here is an idea... Maybe you can break the job into sub-projects - (which obviously you do while estimating anyway) but actually bid and get paid that way. That way, if she doesn't pay for the 2nd project, then you don't go on the the third project. And, that way, it will give both you and/or the customer a way out if say, when the overall project is 1/2 done it just isn't working out for both of you.
I appreciate the suggestion, and agree - progress payments are always an excellent idea!View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
"interior walls patched with stucco ...
no weep screed on the stucco"
Who needs a weep on an interior wall? :)
I do every time I think of one covered with stucco.
;-)
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
don't come to this neck of the woods...
you'll be bawlling yur eyes out...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
They actually patch non-stucco walls with stucco there? Man that is crude! I can understand if that is the original finish that would make sense, but to use it as a patch?
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
they call it art or the different look or what ever justification is in use at the moment....
95% of the entier town is a work in "creativeness"....
some of the executed "solutions" or "craftsmanship" is mind boogleing....
I think it's the hackmiester capital of the world...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
They actually patch non-stucco walls with stucco there? No - they don't. But in this case, one joker did. I'll be tearing it out, and repairing the walls properly.
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View ImageView Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
What is the big deal with patching interior walls with stucco? Granted what was done is sloppy, but in your picture you show a door jam the casing is to cover most of it. I have found stucco the best patch for old horse hair or brown plaster. Paint the hole with concrete binder mix up some stucco one or two coats depending how thick the plaster. Let it dry top coat with easy sand dry wall compound and I have a patch that will never show up again.Have done this for years on Moved outlets etc. Or Is the problem just that all the walls should of been torn out to start with and re rock that patching was not worth the time, not the method.Wallyo
What is the big deal with patching interior walls with stucco?
I haven't seen your work, so this comment is in reference to the work on the house pictured. It is the wrong texture, looks horrible, will crack at the un-taped cold joint where it meets the drywall, too brittle and will crack or break out if bumped or nailed, and in short, its just the wrong application for the product. Drywall is best and properly patched with drywall - taped at the edges, small repairs with drywall joint compound. If done properly it will be invisible, won't crack, and can have nails driven or be bumped without cracking or breaking.
View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
I never stated that I used it on drywall. I said I use it for old horse hair plaster work, after years of patching plaster with everything else I found a bag of stucco to be the best in that situation, using the method I described. I was trying to pass a method on to others who might think "I read on breaktime you should never use stucco patch inside a house". Plainly put it has its proper place dry wall is not one, it does adhere very well to sand based plaster when using a binder it probably adheres to lath better then the original paster.You stated you were to tear it all out I was just trying to point out that in the photo you posted with the jam, does it really need to be torn out or will the casing cover it. Even if a crack were to develop would it be overlapped with the casing. As long as the door jam has not been bowed out. They could of even put a strip of plywood in there and that would of been fine, as long as the rock was resting some of the double stud and the casing covered it is only acting as a filler.Be very careful when acting as the knight in shining armor, you may run into the wicked witch. Tour the place with her, point out all the wrongs, write them down have her sign the list. Tell her what the limits are as to how well they can be fix, before photos, lots of them of everything of the list. Had a customer once for a hardwood floor job, a closet was taken out and needed to weave in the strip floor. She had been through other contractors no one wanted to touch it. Gave a sq foot price on the job and per hour on the weaving spent about 24 hours on it I did not like the way it looked and tore it up once, they did not ask me to. At the end they were very happy. Sent them a bill for per sq foot plus 12hrs on the weave showing the deduction. Received a check two months later with a two page letter. They did not like the price even though I halved the hours, paid me for only four hours. Should of turned them in for code violation they built an addition with out a permit I did not have anything to do with that, but I was the knight. She moved here from CA also.Wallyo
Edited 1/10/2008 12:15 pm ET by wallyo
Appreciate the imput - don't run into much old horsehair plaster here in Calif, but I can see where that might be the case. Sorry to hear about your experience, I'll write my payment schedule accordingly. - Huck, always learning, but not always earning!View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
on the exterior walls
View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
I know, that's why I had a smiley, it was a joke.
Yeah - stucco'd right down to the slab in some cases, down to the dirt in others. Like burying the bottom edge of a sponge in the ground - its always wet looking or discolored along the bottom. I'm not gonna try to fix it, it is what it is. He also re-stucco'd without first changing out the old rotted/rusted/broken basement vent screens. Now the stucco guy says he's gonna change 'em out after the fact. Kinda hard to do, since they have a metal nailing flange that has to go on before the stucco. Duh. I'm excluding that, he can work it out with the owner.View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
Feel bad for the woman but would feel worse if you get stuck. As the guys have said, watch out.
I stopped doing 'charity' work a while back. Too many times I found that what I was so careful to save in costs for the client they turned around and spent on some high end finish or appliance that was installed after the corrections were made.
Still get requests to "help", now I get real expensive and they go elsewhere.
ciao, ted
I told her the bad news: labor to fix this train wreck is going to be in the 17-20K range. Plus materials. Broke my heart to say it, because I know she's already spent way more than she should have. Figured she'd say Never Mind.
She said its high, but says she still wants me to do the work, and has asked for a complete bid labor and materials.
Proceeding with caution.View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
sounds like a case for 'Holmes on Homes'
"What's an Arkansas flush?......It's a small revolver and any five cards."
And this was in a state that requires licensing? I guess my hopes and ideals of licensing are a bit unrealistic, in the sense that it would help to weed out the idiots and incompetents.
And this was in a state that requires licensing? I guess my hopes and ideals of licensing are a bit unrealistic, in the sense that it would help to weed out the idiots and incompetents.
them are the folks runnin' the showView Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
That is also typical of Floridas Licensing. If you don't have a license you are not under their jurisdiction.
They can charge you with contracting without a license but thats about it. Unless there is fraud involved.
It is idealistic to think that the state is going to weed out the incompetents. In fact, it makes it much harder for honest craftsmen to earn a living practicing their craft.Licensing is all about putting the power of the market into the hands of those that prefer to work at a desk. It makes criminals out of those that work with their hands unless they have a desk jockey master. If you can read the laws and know nothing about building, you would be a good candidate to get a builders license. If you can't read the law (because you've spent your entire life working out on the jobsite), you will not pass the tests and therefore can't be a builder. It's a scam. Many, many year ago, in MI, the head of the Dept of Licensing and Regulation made this recomendation to the legislature: eliminate all the licensing requirements except those of the professions. Of course, that is counter to what most lifelong politicians want and do. They don't want their power base shrunk. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
It seems that politicians who pass contracting laws are favorable to special interest groups, like corporate giants who want to make it difficult for small businesses to prosper. Hence the laws regulating small businesses are designed to make it difficult to operate legally, and nearly impossible to prosper.
The licensing tests here are passable by tradesmen who are willing to study. Actually, most of the really slimy contractors I've worked for are desk people who found a way around the testing process - some were grandfathered in under a father or or other family member who was licensed, some were licensed as a result of a paper partnership which allowed them to use someone else's license, and its also possible to hire a RME (responsible managing employee) and use his license for the business to operate under.
The laws of incorporation make it possible for those who lose their license to form a corporation with a new name, and get right back in the ballgame.View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
"The licensing tests here are passable by tradesmen who are willing to study. Actually, most of the really slimy contractors I've worked for are desk people who found a way around the testing process - some were grandfathered in under a father or or other family member who was licensed, some were licensed as a result of a paper partnership which allowed them to use someone else's license, and its also possible to hire a RME (responsible managing employee) and use his license for the business to operate under"
Absolutely the same in my experience. I wanted to work in Mass, so I took the classes and then the test for the licensing. For all the bruhaha about "qualifications" at least half of the people in the 'class' had never swung a hammer in their lives and had no intention to. All the while the application supposedly is clear in that five years "hands-on" experience is required. I am sure most of those people got around that requirement by fulfilling the "or related design experience" requirement. In the class the instructor spent inordinate amounts of time explaining the most fundamental building terminology and concepts that these people couldn't wrap their minds around. WTF?
Additionally I remember looking at a mess a homeowner had been left with when a contractor demo'd their house and did horrible work and took all HO's funds with him. Although HO was naive, fact is the jerk had a suspended license and was working under someone else's, that guy couldn't be tracked down and HO says (don't know for a fact) that the town offices actually called the original contractor when HO tried to remove him from the permit, who then came over harrassing HO, "I know people and you can't remove me from this job like that!" Again, WTF?
You are exactly right about being able to get back into the game using entity laws. In MI, it's a simple matter to hire a carpenter on staff and use his license. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Jim and et all... In my state (NC) the GC licensing examination does require one to know some basics of contracting law, but that is only about 10% of it. Heck, the part of the rules and regulations booklet that pertains directly to GCs for is only about 20 pages long and is fairly easy to read. Other than that there is a 3 hour part of the test that is based on reading and interpreting and estimating from an example set of house blueprints. The test also focus on code (obviously the residential code book is a few hundred pages) among other things like basic accounting. Regarding this last item I think the general consensus is that more GCs get into trouble with the money aspects of things as opposed to the actual building.
Regarding the residential building code portion of the test, when I took it they gave you an actual code book to reference so you didn't have to memorize it, but the questions were specific and numerous enough that if someone wasn't pretty familiar with the code book they probably wouldn't have enough time to find the correct answers and pass the test.
There is no doubt that a "desk jockey" with good study skills could pass the test, but personally I think these people are at a disadvantage, where as people with extensive field experience should be able to pass the test with probably 50% less studying than your "desk jockeys". To the other extreme, I do think the test weeds out individuals without reasonable literacy skills.
My point is that there are at least some states where licensing isn't a joke and just a way to get money, and the licensing requirements actually address proficiency in the actual building process. Take a look at this link to learn a little more about what the deal is with NC GC licensing.
BTW - Here, there is also a "home owner recovery fund" which a portion of the state licensing fees go into. I don't know much about this except to say that I have heard of hosed HOs actually getting money out of it. I would imagine that these instances are few and far between as the licensing fees are somewhat minimal.
If you take the class in FL to be a contractor, all they do is go thru the books used on the test and you tab them. The answers are all in the tabbed areas. The test is a 2-day, open book.
Even being open book, if it is 2 days in length it sounds like you have to go through the material pretty thoroughly. If nothing else the test would be a learning experience in itself. Further, I'd guess that the time commitment alone would weed out many of those who weren't serious about getting the license as well as most of the DAs that had the $100 (or whatever) fee but not much between the ears. I'd say that anyone who thinks open book tests are always easy hasn't been to college.
Did you pass the FLA test on your first try?
Edited 12/31/2007 6:42 pm ET by Matt
Never took it. Just telling you how it is. And no, I don't think its easy. I can't get a FL license becasue of a felony conviction. but a lot of guys without practical building knowledge can. No problem with that .
The books run 12-1500 bucks. Can't test without the books.
and those guys sleep at night? Problem with Calif, is one guy can get a license then bid a job, hire a bunch of illegals to do the work under his license. Then the crappy work gets done the guy declares bankruptcy and opens biz under another name.
Its pretty bad Especially when ya got the illegals talking to the homeowner and undercutting ya taking on side work on your site. Its like a endless cycle.
Calif is a rough place to be honest in.
Edited 12/29/2007 12:03 pm by Sancho
You said a mouthful there. Legitimate payroll vs. cash under-the-table is the bane of the industry here in California.
A $15/hr. guy on payroll takes home about the same as a $12/hr cash guy takes home. $15/hr. guy costs me $30/hr for legit payroll including worker's comp, and $12/hr guy costs his boss $12/hr. , and in both cases the worker's take-home pay is the same.
So the low bidder who pays cash flaunts the law and gets the jobs, while high bidder is called a "crook and a rip-off" because his prices reflect the actual cost of doing business legally. Probably the same in a lot of places.View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
Not to mention their is absolutely no recourse for the HO. Much like that lady. If she hired some unlicensed guy he just disappears. Reappears with a new DBA and hoses some more HO's looking for a deal.
Guys like this keep Mike Holmes in show business! Shame he is in Canada...
Huck on Homes
WOW !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! She sunk a 100 thousand into that thing. On what??????????
I honestly don't understand how someone can do that and look at themselves in the mirror. It would be a whole lot easier to club the customer over the head and steal their wallet. Less tramatic too.
Don't these donkeys understand that you make more money when you do a good job?
Honestly!!!!!!!!!!!!!