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We had a guest in our home the other day, and she said something that kind of ticked me off. She was looking at the woodwork in our 80 year old home, (original finish – never been painted) and made the comment that “They don’t make ’em like they used to”.
This attitude really ticks me off, and I sort of gave her an earfull about it. Our house has 2X4 rafters, with about 3″ of sag in them. Floor joists are 2X8, spanning about 15′ or so. The floor is like a trampoline. The windows are leaky, rattle in the wind, and never were as good as modern windows. The studs are rough sawn lumber, and are crooked as hell. (Wasn’t lumber supposed to be better back then ?)
I just wondered if any of the rest of you took offense at attitudes like this.
Replies
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Ron,
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"Whenever, therefore, people are deceived and form opinions wide of the truth, it is clear that the error has slid into their minds through the medium of certain resemblance's to that truth."
Socrates
*Ron, you have to remember that there were high end homes as well as low end homes built at that time tooand you can always tell.Vince
*Ron, maybe she, like me, is under the (mistaken?) impression that houses that old used 2x4s that were truly 2x4 and not less. Somewhere, I heard that in the 70's or so, "2x4s" became smaller by 1/4" or so. Whether or not that is true (and I am interested to know), perhaps that makes her (and me) think that other structural aspects are also better? I definitely know that my "waverly" windows are nowhere near the quality one can get today, but I do love old things, so I haven't replaced them. (If we get a killer summer, you can bet I'll rethink that!)One thing I do know is that tract homes, here, built after the 60's have had a very bad rep, up until the last few years. On the other hand, perhaps she was making a comment that was meant to imply old is old, and not as good as newer? (How rude!)I love my old house, but it doesn't seem to need much more upkeep (knock wood!) than houses built 75 yrs later. Luck? Craftsmanship? Dunno. But I would love to get steel reinforcements (whatever it's called) in case one day an earthquake really shakes me--there, too, I've been very fortunate, but, again, maybe I'm lucky that my little neck of the woods doesn't jolt much, just "rolls," kind of like being on a boat. Knock knock!How did she respond to your comments?
*kai,I can't tell you when a 2x4 no longer became a 2x4, but I can tell you that in the late sixties a 2x4 went from 1 5/8x3 5/8 to 1 1/2x 3 1/2. Created quite a stir at the time.John
*remember, most people look at sufaces and decoration, not at the house itself.As a home inspector, I'm constantly amazed at what my customer's focus on and what they've missed in choosing a house.FWIW, my vote for the "best" period for well built homes (in my neck of the woods, NW Ohio) is late 40's thru early 60's.Better materials, in general, and on average, better craftsmanship, which I attribute to (i) fewer competitive pressures, (ii) people understanding that you get what you pay for, (iii) possibly more pride in craftsmanship in the average carpenter/tradesman (NOT to suggest that there aren't plenty of excellant craftsman out there now, but I think there's a higher percentage of bozo's now - of course, there might be an element of "old fart" in that attitude )Bob
*"They don't make them like they used to." My response to that statement is always, "Thank goodness they don't" In my area,Park City, UT, we build to a strict seismic code. If there ever is a big shaker here, all the older homes are going down. I've seen it many times in Calif.And it was some time in the late fifties, early sixties that the lumber became smaller.A sad observation on my part, there does seem to be a lack of quality craftsmanship in the last few years.Back when the Unions were strong there were 4 year training programs that taught skills and history of the trade.Both of which are sadly lacking now.
*Deleted post above was directed to Bob Walker re: house inspector liability.. . decided to start a new thread rather than hijack Ron's.-pm
*Ron, I think the "they don't build it like they used to" is the mantra of alot of carpenters too. I always feel like the outcast because I think buildings are getting better, not worse.I say you can't have too much plastic or steel in a home.
*when i'm inspecting for a proposal, and i find a lot of substandard details in some of the old construction, i usually beat them to the punch and point out how much better things are now with building codes.....i also agree with RyanC, we've got so much available to us that the old timers didn't have... the only thing they had was old growth lumber and more species available.. we've got the same materials, plus engineered materials, windows and door they would die for, roofing materials that will last forever, tools to work with, computers to aid in design, communications to coordinate..and we've got access to some great craftsmen...if the owner wants to pay for it, they can get anything they want built..main difference between then and now is the tradesmen arn't treated like indentured servants..so if you wanted schlock then , you coud get it , and if you want quality now , you can get that too!
*You know Ron I had a similar experience recently when a couple of retired carpenters were going through a new home that I was framing. They too were lamenting about how "they don't build houses like they used to." Their major complaint was the I-joists we were using. They were explaining to a friend of theirs how builders were cutting corners by using junk like those I-joists which as we all know are made of "scrap" wood. I think Mike Smith's comments sum it up pretty well. The technology of building has gotten much better along with tools and materials. I have gone through 200 year old homes that were considered state of the art when they were built but would scare me to live in today. Quality is available in all areas of construction, but you must be willing to ante up. Marshall Winn
*I may be wrong about this, but wouldn't most of the old homes that are still standing represent, more or less, the cream of the crop? What percentage of homes built 80 years ago are still standing? Yeah, some junk is being built today, but the junk built 80 years ago is probably long gone.Rich Beckman
*Hey Rick, you beat me to it! I was gonna say that all the 'bad' houses built long ago are now long gone. We are still waiting for all the 'bad' houses built recently to succumb (give them 80 years...).But, the other thing I wanted to say was this: Thank God they don't build them 'like that' anymore - the earth could not go on supporting it! When I go around Michigan (once covered in trees, now much is farm land, the rest is baby forests with young trees) I can't believe how quickly the wood was used up and the cutters moved on. Lots of it was burned for heat (great deal of improvement made there since then, you'll have to agree), and some of it went in to furniture (ok, there is no substitute for real, wood furniture sometimes). The rest went in to building houses which by todays standards are either over built (used way more wood than was really needed, structurally) or under built (fell down, sagged, etc). And too many of the over built ones (worth saving - land marks and stuff) burned down. Such a waste it brings tears to my eyes when I read about another magnificent building that is no longer there (hotels, most of 'em) that burned. Now we have sprinklers and codes (and fire departments) to reduce fire risks.There has been so much advancement that reduces the usage of wood material in the construction of a fine house today, and also improves the up-keep. Lots of old houses are gone today because the owners couldn't afford to paint all that decorative wood exterior every 5 years (first you give up trying to keep it in 3 contrasting colors, then you give up trying to paint it at all - either let it rot (then someone tears it down to replace it with a cement apartment building) or tear off the decorative trim and slap asbestous/cement shingles or aluminum siding over it (roughly the same result, aestheticaly speaking).woops, kinda got off on my soap box there...Anyway, my point was, that the fine woods were used in such profusion back then, that if we tried to build a majority of homes today like that we'd de-forest the planet in no time (the little trees just won't grow fast enough, and the new growth stuff is less tight-grained and tough as the old stuff).Personally, I wouldn't live in one of those modern homes, with their vinyl siding, skinny, skinny trimming and fake chimneys (what the heck is the deal with these 'chimneys' covered with siding? They don't even go to the ground for heaven sake! hmmm). But thankfully, most every one else is happy to, leaving the ones like me to get to restore and enjoy one of the old ones, that are 'not built like they do now'.
*My home is 105 years old. It is built entirely out of rough sawn redwood. The 2x4's are actually 2x3and 1/2 redwood posts. All joists are 12" redwood, and are 16" oc. The home was plumbed and is fitted with both electrical and gas connections throughout the home. 1" doug fir subfloor, 1" finish floors. Redwood lathe and plaster throughout. All exterior siding and shingles are redwood as well.All walls, whether interior or exterior are diagonally braced with blocking (mitered) between all studs. 10' ceilings. Interior trim is Alder and Red Oak, with some Cherry. Floors are all Red Oak and some Doug Fir.This home (4,500 sq feet) would cost you $400 a foot to build now, assuming you could buy that much redwood.Most baths are set on hexigon tile with subway type wall tile.The only real downside, is that kitchens were tiny back then, but it does have a huge butler's pantry.This type of home is why I am into preservation and remodling historic homes. The workmanship and quality of materials can not be matched by today's craftmen.
*If today's craftsmen can't match the workmanship of 105 years ago, who can you find to do the restoration? Won't all of us modern hacks ,with our lazy incompetent ways, just ruin the fine work of old?
*Tell em Ryan!
*Three points. 1) I still have a knee jerk reaction to comments like Ryan's first one about there can't be to much metal or plastic in a house today, Ryan I'm getting better about that and now agree with you. Often wood is not the best for a particular job in a house. 2) There are craftsmen out there today as good as any have been before. 3) The coming and going of good times has an affect on homebuilding.I'm being subjective here, I don't have proof. We are in a sweet time right now. People seem to be spending an ungodly amount of money. That will come to a halt and people will go back to cutting every corner they can, looking for ways to save money in materials and labor. Cracker boxes will go up again. Enjoy this period because 5 years from now people may be saying "they sure don't build them like they used to". IMHO Skip
*Ron, I'm working on one of those "Don't build 'em like that anymore" homes and I couldn't agree with you more. Let's see- where to begin? Rotted mudsills, overspanned joists, overspanned rafters, inadequate ventilation, twisted and bowed studs due to framing with green lumber...how is this house still standing? Wait I see- it's sinking and sagging and falling- my homeowner asks "How can we fix this?" I hand him a match...This is my current project- a few more "good ones "like this and I retire.side note to scooter- bullXXXX
*Ron, I'm working on one of those "Don't build 'em like that anymore" homes and I couldn't agree with you more. Let's see- where to begin? Rotted mudsills, overspanned joists, overspanned rafters, inadequate ventilation, twisted and bowed studs due to framing with green lumber...how is this house still standing? Wait I see- it's sinking and sagging and falling- my homeowner asks "How can we fix this?" I hand him a match...This is my current project- a few more "good ones "like this and I retire.
*on, She forgot one thing to add. "Thank God".I believe those of us who do take pride in our work do build a better house today. I've spent a few miserable days working in those "good ole" houses where carpenters did't have or didn't use a square or level. There is some shoddy work going on and a lot of disposable housing going up as has in the past. I do respect what those old guys did and how hard it must have been to make any headway building a house. Our tools, technology, sources and techniques are far superior to what they had. The one thing they had that we don't is better natural resources. They didn't use them to the best potential because they lacked our technology. One of the only things I look forward too in old age is to see how our houses stand up to the test of time.