Just wondering what thinset I should use to lay travertine tile. I bought the tile from The Tile Shop and the thinset they sold me was Pro-Flex Platinum and was $45 for a 50lb bag. I heard that Laticrete from Lowes was supposed to be pretty good and I see that it is only $15 for a 50lb bag. The 50lb bag is going to be really close to cover the area that I am doing, but if I run short I’d hate to drop another $45 on the Pro-Flex if the Laticrete is just as good. Just seeking some knowledge from those that have a lot more experinence than me. Thanks.
MikeJ
Replies
Mike,
Post this at
http://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/index.php
Chuck S
Whats underneath-what are you putting it on?
Stone, marble, porcelain requires a different thinset, especially formulated for less porous tile. Laticrete is a good product, but you have to make sure it's suitable for what you're installing. If it's made for ceramic tile, you can't use it. If it's formulated for stone, marble and porcelain, you should be able to return the product the tile store sold you.
~ Ted W ~
Cheap Tools! - MyToolbox.net
See my work - TedsCarpentry.com
Use white thinset. Soem natural stone will stain from regular grey thinset.
"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
I'll be installing 1/2" Hardiboard over 3/4" plywood. I plan on putting a coat of thinset beneath the Hardiboard. After some more thought I suppose I could buy a cheaper thinset for the Hardiboard and then I know I'll have enough of the Pro-Flex for the tile.
I did get white as suggested.
Thanks for the replies.
MikeJ
Mike, is the 3/4 plywood the only thing on the joists or is there an old subfloor beneath it?"...The soul afraid of dying; Who never learned to live."
The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation. What is called resignation is confirmed desperation. From the desperate city you go into the desperate country, and have to console yourself with the bravery of minks and muskrats. A stereotyped but unconscious despair is concealed even under what are called the games and amusements of mankind. There is no play in them, for this comes after work. But it is a characteristic of wisdom not to do desperate things. -Thoreau
3/4" plywood over I-joists 19.2 O.C.
That won't be stable enough for tiling as a normal recommendation has often been a minimum of an inch and a quarter thickness of subfloor at 16" centers
because of deflection properties causing the unstable floor to loosen the tiles over time.
Others should be by later with more precise data."...The soul afraid of dying; Who never learned to live."
The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation. What is called resignation is confirmed desperation. From the desperate city you go into the desperate country, and have to console yourself with the bravery of minks and muskrats. A stereotyped but unconscious despair is concealed even under what are called the games and amusements of mankind. There is no play in them, for this comes after work. But it is a characteristic of wisdom not to do desperate things. -Thoreau
So the 1/2" hardiboard doesn't count towards the thickness?
"So the 1/2" hardiboard doesn't count towards the thickness?"
no. not at all. hardiboard isn't subfloor.
it's tile underlayment.
subfloor is "wood".
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
"That won't be stable enough for tiling as a normal recommendation has often been a minimum of an inch and a quarter thickness of subfloor at 16" centers"That is not true.TCA method F14416" OC joist.Requires a min of 19/32" exterior-glue plywood sub-floor.Thinset and then CBU or fiber cement underlayment.Now direct laying on plywood requires 2 layers.19/32" exterior glue plywood subfloor and 15/32" (residential) 19/32" (light commercial) underlayment plywood. And unlike CBU there is no thinset layer, but the scews that attach the underalyment are only to go into the subfloor and not the joist.Now the only system using 19.2" OC uses tile directly on a "decoupling systems" on 23/32" T&G exterior glue ply.On 24" they don't show any with CBU. They do have fiberglass reinforced gypsum backer board and that require 7/8" T&G plywood subfloor.And they do have 2 systems with double layers of plywood. Not sure what the difference is.Require 23/32" plywood and an 2nd layer of 19/32" underlayment, then tile.That said it is only for CERAMIC TILE.For stone they say to use the specs from the Marble Institute (I think that is the name or something like that)..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
"That is not true."
that IS true.
1 1/4 inch is the normal recommended subfloor.
You want to build to absolute minimums .... have at it.
enjoy the cracks.
and he said 19.2 so 16oc's min's are meaningless.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
3/4" plywood over I-joists 19.2 O.C.
spanning?
"When the spirits are low, when the day appears dark, when work becomes monotonous, when hope hardly seems worth having, just mount a bicycle and go out for a spin down the road, without thought on anything but the ride you are taking." — Sherlock Holmes, 1896
Travertine is as about as weak as it gets when it comes to floor tile.There are two different types of deflection that cause cracks and failures; joist deflection and sub floor flex between the joists. The joist deflection value L720 is the minimum value for stone flooring. This value can be obtained from the I Joist manufacturer or a friendly lumber yard. You'll need to tell them the span between supports and the depth of the joists. In comparison, ceramic tile only requires a L360 deflection rating.1 1/8" is the minimum recommended ply wood sub floor for suitable joists 16" o.c. At 19.2 o.c. 1 1/4 - 1 3/8 would be the minimum sub floor I'd consider acceptable.Your 1/2" cement board adds ZERO to floor stiffness and should be left out of any deflection calculation. 1/4" cement board (follow manufacturer's installation instructions) is all you need on a floor.YMMV
The awful thing is that beauty is mysterious as well as terrible. God and the devil are fighting there, and the battlefield is the heart of man.- Fyodor Dostoyevski
Well seems you know the #'s. slightly off topic but I need this info.
To tile a shower stall over icf wall. Duroc 1/2 inch. do I need thin set betwen the icf? Poly?
How about the stud walls !6 oc ply , thinset duroc, thinset, Tile?and as for the OP and the I beam joists and 19 inch span could you have cross blocked that from underneith when framing to get a stiffer floor with out the thickness?I still see more floor trusses than I beams "round these parts.
OOp's forgot about the ceiling to be tiled to Recomendations?HELP
Edited 4/11/2009 11:26 pm ET by Shoemaker1
Does the ICF wall have studs embedded/attatched to it? If it does, you can attach 6mil poly as a vapor barrier, then 1/2"cement board, then tile. I would omit the poly and use a surface applied waterproof membrane- either sheet or liquid to the cement board and tile to that.If there are no studs, I would build stud walls inside the foundation as you need space to run pipes and electric. I do 90% interior work, I have never built any thing with I joists or floor trusses. Since both are manufactured products, you need to go to the manufacturer with the deflection rating you require and get the rated assembly from them. In my experience with sawed lumber, blocking can help, but, I don't know how to quantify the improvement. Since I warranty all my work, I try to stick to quantifiable solutions like reducing the span. Have I done different? Yes, with signed waivers in 14 point type. Tiling ceilings I don't know it there's a written spec ...but, if there's a walkable floor above, common sense tells me it should be rated at least L360. Other than that, wear an old hat, glasses, and a mask as getting thinset or grout in your hair, eyes, and mouth are never fun.YMMVJim
The awful thing is that beauty is mysterious as well as terrible. God and the devil are fighting there, and the battlefield is the heart of man.- Fyodor Dostoyevski
I posted over on the JohnBridge forum and looks like I need to contact the I-joist manufacturer to get their recommendations. I have Louisiana Pacific 9 1/2" LPI-32 I-joists and their website only gives ratings to L480 on a 16' span. I have a feeling they are going to recommend I use a different type of tile.
Mike J
Just add a layer of 1/2" ply glued to the existing layer and screwed to one another and stop contacting people....lol. Be done with it. Then thinset down your hardie and screw the hell outta that too (but avoid screwing the HArdi into the joists.) Then use the recommended thinset for that tile and yes..you need to use a white thinset over dark tiles especially marble and the such.
Personally I like dbl 3/4" ply but I'm Mr Overkill..
I've laid 24" snow white limestone in a entryway over 1 1/4" subfloor using white Versabond and yearssssssssssss later it looks awesome. there's plenty of great thinsets out there...Laticrete, TEC, Versabond, Mapei and then some but if I were you I'd go with the recommended thinset for your tile and quit kibbitzing around and get to work. If in doubt go slightly overboard. the extra few bucks for the better thinset will help you sleep better at night.
Also buy a good tile setter book like the one Michael wrote http://www.amazon.com/Setting-Tile-Homebuilding-Michael-Byrne/dp/1561580805
BTW Michael is the moderaor over at JLC in the tile forum.
http://forums.jlconline.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=13
http://www.cliffordrenovations.com
http://www.ramdass.org
Andy, how are we going to keep people coming back to the forum if you keep handing out good advice like that? Ya gotta wait till everybody else has a chance to provide their official say in the matter.~ Ted W ~
Cheap Tools! - MyToolbox.netSee my work - TedsCarpentry.com
You're fighting several issues here.First, ceramic versus stone. In general, ceramic/porcelain tile is stronger than stone tile.
Second, one stone versus another, and travertine is a fairly weak stone.Floor stiffness and thickness. Normally you'd shoot for L/720 for a straight installation. You'll have difficulty pulling that number out of your I-joists. And remember, the L/720 is for deflection not just along the length of the joist, but between joists as well. Meaning you can have steel I-beams for your floor joists, and they'd be stiff as all. But place them 24" oc and use 1/2" ply as your subfloor, and you'll have unwanted deflection between the joists. As others have mentioned, TCA is a great reference, but it's for ceramic tile installations, not stone.As others have mentioned, cement board as a tile backer is transition material, it gets you from the wood subfloor t the tile. But it is not structural. and when you use cement board on the floor, you have to bed it in thinset, then screw/nail the cement board to the subfloor. Use unmodified gray thinest, it's inexpensive and does the job. The thinset is not bonding the cement board to the subfloor. Then fasteners do that. The thinset just fills the voids between the cement board and subfloor and prevents any future up/down movement between the two. That movement will cause your installation to fail.So what can you do? For the joists you have, you're pretty much looking at having to use an isolation membrane to isolate floor movement (which will occur) from the travertine. But you still need to minimize the movement.Personally, I'd not bother calling the joist manufacturer just yet. I'd instead make my first call to Schluter's tech department. They have databases of floor systems, and can give you the complete low-down on the possibility of using a membrane like Ditra to bridge from your floor system to the travertine.If you go with something like Ditra?With stone you will still want underlayment over your subfloor. For best performance you want the seams to be offset from your subfloor seams, and don't have the 4' edges fall on the joists. With your 19" spacing, run them 5" past the joist. Screw the underlayment to the subfloor 6" oc in the field and 4" at the edges. Attach the underlayment to the subfloor only, not to the joists. Gap the sheets of underlayment by 1/8".Then you'd want to use an isolation membrane like Ditra over the underlayment.Then use a white thinset to bond the travertine to the Ditra.That said? My first call would be to Schluter.Best, Mongo
The thinset is not bonding the cement board to the subfloor. Then fasteners do that. The thinset just fills the voids between the cement board and subfloor and prevents any future up/down movement between the two. That movement will cause your installation to fail.
You are full of great and valuable information and I have you do some really nice work.
I must take exception to that staement though.
Have you ever tried to take up cbu that has been thinsetted to ply?
"When the spirits are low, when the day appears dark, when work becomes monotonous, when hope hardly seems worth having, just mount a bicycle and go out for a spin down the road, without thought on anything but the ride you are taking." — Sherlock Holmes, 1896
Of course there will be some bonding, and the bonding can even be strong and secure. What I don't want people to do is just use thinset and no fasteners.But you are correct. I should have specified that the main purpose of the thinset is void filling.However, since we're just looking for void-filling and not bonding per se, that's why we can save a few bucks per bag and use unmodified versus modified.
Thanks. The ICF's have webs to screw to and I bought corrosion resistant screws.
As for the ceiling should I put plywood up and thinset the durock to it?
And yes grouting overhead is going to me a PITA but It sure beats welding overhead!
The ceiling is a 18 inch thick truss system with ply and concrete cap. Don't think deflection is a concern.
I would run 1x3 strapping perpendicular to the trusses so you can get things nice and level. Cement board on the ceiling is IMHO, overkill. Use DensArmor or another fiberglass faced drywall. For crisp corners, use Straightflex and Durobond to tape the lid to the walls.YMMV,
Jim
The awful thing is that beauty is mysterious as well as terrible. God and the devil are fighting there, and the battlefield is the heart of man.- Fyodor Dostoyevski
Thanks again.
You telling me i don't have to get me honey to hold up duroc while I look for the cordless drill?
Going to take a trip into the city and get the new stuff. Were I live has limited choice of materials and special orders are $$$.
I'm going into and maintaining an anti-city phase as, There is a reason why I left the place.Any way, I'm trying to finish the master bedroom shower with a seat and funky rain shower heads.
I was working at a place that I was renovating the street level for a new shoe repair shop. Long story. So as I was in the basement I found a whole bunch of old tile that was covered in mud. All kinds of green bases and overlay and+. so it gathered it. My sweety loves green !! so . I want to build the shell and then let her lay out the tile and float the rest, and seal.Now I should quit head scrathing and start at it.
Your answer is right on, would have replied the same answer
I rule.
The awful thing is that beauty is mysterious as well as terrible. God and the devil are fighting there, and the battlefield is the heart of man.- Fyodor Dostoyevski
Mike,
Laticrete makes about ten different types of thinset. You need the one for stone.
Bruce
Heh, Like I said, 'Others should be by later with more precise data'. snorK*
Are we having fun yet?:o)
"...The soul afraid of dying; Who never learned to live."
The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation. What is called resignation is confirmed desperation. From the desperate city you go into the desperate country, and have to console yourself with the bravery of minks and muskrats. A stereotyped but unconscious despair is concealed even under what are called the games and amusements of mankind. There is no play in them, for this comes after work. But it is a characteristic of wisdom not to do desperate things. -Thoreau