All of the roofing goes to the siding like in this picture: no sign of flashing anywhere, lots of j-channel. What should have been done? What should be done to make it right?
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Look here:
http://www.ibacos.com/pubs/RoofFlashingGuidelines.pdf
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
http://www.ibacos.com/pubs/RoofFlashingGuidelines.pdf
Excellent resource. Printed it out. Thank you!
Another picture that shows the roof-siding interface from another perspective.
Yep! You're starting to look for things that will come back to haunt you! Take your putty knife and slide it under the j channel. Pry up and use a flashlight to see what you see. Lift the shingles and look under EVERY SHINGLE to see if there is a step flashing for every course. I doubt that you'll find anything but there might be some. I'd be nervous about all the holes in the flashing through the j channel. Best practice would dictate that the step flashing is tucked under the housewrap. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Lift the shingles and look under EVERY SHINGLE to see if there is a step flashing for every course.
I doubt that you'll find anything but there might be some.
Checked. Sure enough: nothing.
Now it's time for the third party inspection. How much money do you owe for the final draws? We can help you negotiate a settlement. You should know...this isn't going to end happy. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Now it's time for the third party inspection.
Just did it. The inspector found 131 punch list items. Mostly fit and finish, but some big ones too, like replacing the hardwood floors and digging out around the foundation to reapply the water proofing and put in more gravel.
How much money do you owe for the final draws? We can help you negotiate a settlement.
$10K. Definitely less than the value of the work that still needs to be done, but if I let him finish the remaining work (the bathrooms need to be finished), and then roll out the punch list items in phases, I think that we can get a lot of these items done before he bolts.
But this is just a guess -- no experience in this department. If you have any ideas or experiences that can help us out, please let me know.
Also, not sure about the legal actions that may result or how to handle them.
You should know...this isn't going to end happy.
Yup. Bracing for it.
Dave, where you see no step flashing-is this a new roof over sheeting or shingles applied over pre-existing roofing? I'm assuming the house roof was done when the addition was shingled.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Feel like a blind man touching one single part of the elephant?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
It's the location of the part that I'm not comfortable with.
Isn't there someone in Delaware we could send over. I'll kick in a couple bucks for gas.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
JTC1 is from DE.....He's not here......The way it works in our church his absence makes him elected!!Now....who gets to give him the good news.....somebody else thats not here.....
where you see no step flashing-is this a new roof over sheeting or shingles applied over pre-existing roofing?
The original shingles were removed before the new roof was laid. Pulled back some of the siding and also looked under the shingles some. Saw no sign of metal.
I'm assuming the house roof was done when the addition was shingled.
Yes, and the siding too. Wanted to give the house a consistent look.
Can you get a closer shot (not too close) of the bottom left corner of the second pic - the wall / roof section right at the gutter. I'm trying to see if there is any kick-out flashing, maybe others can see if it's there better than I.
Can you get a closer shot (not too close) of the bottom left corner of the second pic - the wall / roof section right at the gutter
How does this look to you?
have you had a conversation with your contractor yet? You need to have a third party come in and inspect your roof and other problem areas. Even if he agrees to fix everything, you need to get a home inspection company to come out and inspect. Try to find one that has been in business for a while. Tell him what is going on. Be open and honest with him.
You need to have a third party come in and inspect your roof and other problem areas.
Had two separate contractors inspect the work while our contractor was on vacation, and our informal punch list now has 145 items on it. We then categorized these items according to location, severity, and difficulty to repair, and decided to start the contractor with the rooms with the least work to do. Figured it would be best to finish some rooms so we can move into them before we risk getting into any difficult discussions.
have you had a conversation with your contractor yet?
Contractor came back today so that we now have some new news. He walked through the addition with me, going over the items we asked him to work on. No problems so far. He accepted all of the items and spent the day working on them.
I'm not sure I like your approach. You are setting the guy up to fail. How would you like to think that there was only 30 items to fix, then you fix them, then you get 30 more. You might get away with this once and twice but the third time, you will alienate the situation and it will be unfixable. I'm glad I'm not in either of the shoes in this arrangement. What are the "major" issues? Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I'm not sure I like your approach. You are setting the guy up to fail.
How would you like to think that there was only 30 items to fix, then you fix them, then you get 30 more. You might get away with this once and twice but the third time, you will alienate the situation and it will be unfixable.
We're dealing with issues on a room-by room basis, so I don't think the contractor is getting the impression you imply. When a room is done, we go on to the next room and he expects there to be a new set of issues.
Also, the contractor himself is exasperated with the quality of some of the work his employees have done. Unfortunately, the guy had two deaths in the family in the past couple of months, and the employees sometimes worked for days on their own, and the results are plain to see.
We're starting with the easier rooms so that my family can start living in them, and then moving to the more difficult rooms and the exterior, because if the contractor walks, we want to have a house we can habitate comfortably while dealing with the fallout.
To get a fuller appreciation of the issues we're dealing with, check out this set of links made by Piffin in another thread where someone said something similar. All of these threads relate to the addition being built by the contractor:
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=99875.1
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=99881.1
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=99831.1
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=99810.1
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=99240.1
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=99439.1
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=98987.1
I've been in construction since i was 11 years old with my father. This summer I hired a roofing company to replace my roof. This is a company I have known the owner for 20 years. They installed a closed cut valley backwards. they do not want to fix. I will probably have to go to court, they think I owe them money. Some contractors just can't be talked to. Your flashing detail needs to be fixed right away, before the spring rains start. DO NOT PAY HIM HIS FINAL PAYMENT.
Edited 1/24/2008 12:02 pm ET by frammer52
DO NOT PAY HIM HIS FINAL PAYMENT.
You bet. There's a whole lot of rework to do still.
That looks like torn Tyvek to me
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
That looks like torn Tyvek to me
I just climbed up and took a close look. Not only is it torn Tyvek, you can see exposed wood in the gap. No flashing.
That looks like torn Tyvek to me
Looked at the section missing flashing with the contractor today. He agreed that the last section(s) of flashing was missing, and agreed to fix it, but was able to show that flashing was in place a few inches further up the roof from where the Tyvek and wood were exposed.
So it looks like the garage roof is mostly flashed next to the main house, but I couldn't tell how far up the wall the flashing went. Plan to check it out tomorrow.
The question remaining is: How many inches up a wall should a piece of step flashing should go? Are there any online references I can show him to back up my claim if there is a problem?
Thank you!
that is insane to install flashing all up a wall but leave it off at the bottom. Let's funel all the water down to one point and then invite it all in at one place!!!!
If it isn't flashed to direct it out over the siding, then it might as well be not flashed at all.
Anyway - I usually use a 4" tall flashing
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
If it isn't flashed to direct it out over the siding, then it might as well be not flashed at all.
This mistake has been in plain sight at the entrance to the house for months. He had to have seen it. Maybe he's just hoping I'm not going to notice this stuff.
Anyway - I usually use a 4" tall flashing
Thank you.
Step flashing needs to be verified first and foremost.
Then the same flashing detail needs to happen that I described in another reply to you. A piece of flat flashing needs to be slid behind the first piece of step flashing and the bottom of the J, then down onto the snap lock of the nearest piece of siding.
A roof run that big I'd probably use a 2' wide by 4' long piece of aluminum coil stock. That would ensure that the water would fall onto the siding before it ran onto the house wrap.
Vinyl is a great product, alot of people bash it here. Address the details and it's as good as anything else out there.
Woods favorite carpenter
Vinyl is a great product, alot of people bash it here. Address the details and it's as good as anything else out there.
Uh, sorry, but vinyl has no place in fine homebuilding IMHO. Ask any realtor; use anything but vinyl.
More importantly, the growth of the vinyl siding industry has contributed greatly to the toxic waste problems being faced by the industrialized world. With oil prices rising, I think vinyl siding may very well become a premium priced product real soon.
If you haven't seen it, check out the independent film Blue Vinyl. It's funny as well as educational. http://www.bluevinyl.org
>> sorry, but vinyl has no place in fine homebuilding IMHO. Ask any realtor; use anything but vinyl.<<
Well thats your opinion and your realtors. You are entitled to it.
In my area the siding has no bearing on price at all. If it's solid and still on the house then its a level field. I could throw fiber cement on my house and it wouldn't raise the value one penny compared to if I used Vinyl.
Fiber cement relys on caulk way too much for my liking. Not that it can't be done right, it is everyday. When a HO wants a real maintainence free exterior they want vinyl. Not something that has to be caulked and repainted.
If I listened to realtors I would be living in a house that I couldn't afford, with a payment thats too high and not be able to sell it in Michigan.
Every customer that I have that has Fiber Cement on their house calls it one of their worst mistakes.
In the end your region is different than mine, and thats what makes our opinions different.
Woods favorite carpenter
A region's average home price has a lot to do with the choices of materials and relative bang for the buck. At some point a couple more bucks per square for a siding material will not be recoverable in a given market.
My real point was that fine home building only includes materials and workmanship of the highest quality. Vinyl just doesn't fit in that world no matter what your home prices may be.
There are numerous communities and developments around the country that prohibit vinyl siding as well as aluminum. There's a reason.
Regardless of your region, pick the finest home in your town and I will bet you it is not covered in vinyl siding.
As for fiber cement, it does not rely on caulk any more than anything else if installed properly.
To each his own.
>>My real point was that fine home building only includes materials and workmanship of the highest quality. Vinyl just doesn't fit in that world no matter what your home prices may be. <<
What makes vinyl lower quality than what you prefer? The price tag?
Workmanship is no different on vinyl to what you prefer. The people installing are the difference. Find people who know how to install vinyl right, and it's as good a job as anything out there.
You want to scrape and paint be my guest. I have better things to do on my weekends.
Woods favorite carpenter
>>Regardless of your region, pick the finest home in your town and I will bet you it is not covered in vinyl siding.<<
Heres one of the nicer homes built in this area in the last few years. I did alot of the exterior and some on the interior and you guessed it, it's Vinyl and Azek. The vinyl shakes cost almost $300 a square.
View Image
Woods favorite carpenter
That's an example of the finest home in your area? I've been to your area of Michigan and that house isn't even close to the nicest.
Any vinyl on this one (Kimball House)?
View Image
Yeah, okay I'm done, you win. Vinyl and plastic for everyone!
Theres hardly any siding on that house, and the only reason its barely still standing is because its a historical home. Thats it. No typical HO is going to keep up a house like one that gets national funding.
It has 500 layers of lead paint on it, about 10 layers of shingles. Great example of a fine home. Not to mention you'd get shot outside of your car in that neighborhood after dark.
Thats a great sugar coated picture, looks nothing like that last time I seen it.
Woods favorite carpenter
WG,
Don't get bent out of shape, we are discussing siding options. Nothing more, I'm not telling you that what you like is wrong, just that vinyl has gotten a bad rap.
Installation is what makes or breaks a job, all can be done good or bad.
Glad you've been to my town, it has alot of nice homes. Older ones that have alot of architectural details that are long forgotten in todays disposable society.
I thought you were talking about newer homes, but I agree that as far as curb appeal goes some older ones have alot more visual interest.
BTW I live about 5 minutes from the Kimball house you posted.
Woods favorite carpenter
Edited 1/24/2008 7:05 pm ET by MattSwanger
How does fiber cement need any more caulk than vinyl?And I concur that your example of a "fine" house is pretty sad.
Vinyl needs no caulk, thats how its different. Probably hard for you to imagine not having to caulk your mistakes but it's possible.
Once we see some pictures of your work you can critique others. Til then thanks for your two cents, don't care.
Woods favorite carpenter
you're like a broken record.
We're talking about siding here and he posts a picture of a brick house?
I was talking about new homes being built, as I think he was. Until that was posted.
Put up one that has siding on it and then we can talk apples to apples.
Woods favorite carpenter
here:
http://www.narrconstruction.com/photo.html
Nice homes McFly. Thanks for the link. Any connection to you?The best reward for a job well done is the opportunity to do another.
Very nice exterior, nothing like that is happening here. For that fact not much of anything new is going on.
A homes design is more important the actual materials used. Nothing in that photo can't be done with vinyl, the gable siding is a tough one, not sure if thats available or not.
View Image
Heres another I did, it has FC on it. The only price difference in the two homes are that this one is on a lake. Siding could have been vinyl and the house would have looked the same. Woods favorite carpenter
Play nice Matt. McFly's trying to win friends and influence people.
There was a time when I would have agreed with the OP about vinyl, but that's because I had yet to see a proper installation.
You're right, it's all about the install.
Kinda ironic, it was one of Guertin's articles that help to sell me on vinyl as a being a component in a "fine" home.
Does a house have to go for over a mil to be "fine"?
I think not! The best reward for a job well done is the opportunity to do another.
I grow tired of hearing it, thats what aggravates me.
If people knew the right way to install it the final product would look no different and be maintainence free.
Flashing is your friend with vinyl, not caulk.
Your right, no need to be so jumpy. Thanks.
Woods favorite carpenter
Edited 1/24/2008 7:14 pm ET by MattSwanger
I'll admit I have little experience with vinyl, but the little I have seen had all the J caulked to all the trim. I will also admit that I can find no such recommendation in the vinylsiding.org installation manual.
This is not standard practice?Also, there is a huge difference in appearance between vinyl and FC or wood. No J channel for one. J channel is out of place moulding IMO. Can I assume that you don't like wood siding because of the caulk too?
Red to be honest a fine home to me is one that, is relatively maintainence free. Looks mean alot, but hardly any HO I encounter want to upkeep the exterior.
Then the issues start, mold, rot, etc... Nothing fine about that.
I like wood and FC siding, don't get me wrong. Caulk being one resort to waterproof the exterior is an invitation of all sorts of issues. If they don't mind caulking they don't want to scrape the old out. The fix is no better than the problem.
Vinyl surround is available, as a substitute for J-channel. Looks like 3-1/2 wide trim, the siding slides into it like J. A matchng crown is available that goes into the head piece of surround.
All of Hardi's and Certainteeds changing rules have me a little doubtful if even they know how to make it last. I'm a lttle skeptical of their warranty claims.
Caulking vinyl is a bad idea, it moves too much. Proper flashing is key in a good installation.
I am not promoting vinyl as being better than the other options, just comparable. Once you get the idea of a good install you'll see what I mean, it's a good system that has gotten a bad rap from bad installs.
Woods favorite carpenter
No caulk is needed for any vinyl installation I have known. Caulk is required for Fibrecement at joints
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
So what do you do where a piece of J meets a window brickmould, for example?
Just leave the gap?
As you know water runs down hill, I like to run flex wrap around all sides of the windows and doors.
I leave the bottom of the side pieces about 12" long. With the backing paper still attached. When I run the siding up to that window I pull the paper and lap the flex wrap onto the nearest piece of siding snap lock.
I also make window sill pans. they are 1/4" x 4-9/16" x 7". These pans get trimmed to fit the nearest snap lock as well. They sit on the sill prior to window installation. Silde the window in and nail all the sides.
It's going to get in momentarily, but run back out and onto the snap lock, then it makes it way out the weep holes in the bottom of the siding.
Woods favorite carpenter
Edited 1/24/2008 6:27 pm ET by MattSwanger
ok good flashing. But what about the gap?And how is that flashing detail any more protective than the same detail for FC?
The gap is left, if the J is applied right it will be no more than a minor shadow. If a playing card was pushed into the gap, you should feel some tension pulling it out. The leading edge of j is a little rounded and that shadow will always be there. But the actual trough of the J is tight to the trim
FC can be done this way. If the flashing is there it's just as good.
Most times we install 1x4 around the window opening, then apply an aluminum Z flashing around the perimeter of the 1x. Followed by a 1x6 Azek, of FC trim.
No need for caulk again.
It's the butt seams in FC I don't care for, once the caulk fails the joints are very visible. Meaning recaulk and repaint. Vinyl overlaps by 1" or better and this isn't an issue. I use flashing behind the butts and that makes me sleep well at night, but almost every other job I have seen done by others caulk is the only defense without flashing. Once again bad install gets a bad rap.
FC also can't be installed near water, it crumbles then. Vinyl doesn't care.
FC is more impact resistant, vinyl is more water resistant.
Woods favorite carpenter
Edited 1/24/2008 6:41 pm ET by MattSwanger
Edited 1/24/2008 6:42 pm ET by MattSwanger
Sorry for jumping at you, no need for it.
You aren't a bad guy once you settle in and sit next to everyone.
I agree with David, great pictures. I think you posted being an engineer, or architect? Woods favorite carpenter
I'm a contractor. I trained as an architect (Univ. of Minnesota College of Arch). I have fully realized the lacking of my architecture education and currently am working through an engineering program.Completely off topic: Should anyone desire to become an architect, they should first get an engineering degree and them go on to a masters of Arch program. I know a couple archs that went that route and it really shows. Both really bright, creative guys as well. Unfortunately I went backwards and with a healthy time lag between. As far as my attitude. I have opinions. I share them rather bluntly. I never write about things I don't know about as though I do. There are differences in techniques and I am absolutely delighted when someone has a better practice that I can earn from. However some techniques ARE better than others. Especially when it comes to engineering for proper design loads. (*ahem*)
>>However some techniques ARE better than others. Especially when it comes to engineering for proper design loads. (*ahem*)<<
I hear you loud and clear, but thats a horse thats been beaten already.
This is great place to learn and discuss techniques, and even blow off some steam when you had one of those days.
Fine Homebuilding only gets better when as a group we all learn. Woods favorite carpenter
""There are differences in techniques and I am absolutely delighted when someone has a better practice that I can earn from. However some techniques ARE better than others. Especially when it comes to engineering for proper design loads."" Some communication techniques are are also better than others.
Especially when talking to your peer group.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
The flashing and wrap or paer behind the siding and the brikmold is the secondarly line of defense. It doesn't matter what kind of siding you use, if ht ewrap and flashing combination will not keep water out alone, the job was not done right. The siding is to look pretty and maake itr all stand up to time, but it is never more than the primry line of defense.I have only rarely done vinyl but have never done it with bricckmold anyway though. I wonder why somebody would want a trim intended for brick to be fitted into a vinyl siding. in new work, there are better options
J to wood trimm generally is reserved for retrofit installations where there is already siding on the house
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Whatever trim you want. I was just looking for an easy example.
J to the window frame, how's that?.
there are dubdivisions that prohibit all manmade products. i laughed 3 years ago when i saw in an "exclusive" area the use of fibre cement products and manmade stone. this is just someones idea of what is best. if your homeowner in your mcmansion wants to continually mantain the outside of their house, then by all means sell then cedar claps. this has become a nonissue except by those people whose house has become their identity. by the way, the movie blue vinyl is full of inaccuracies. find something else to quote that has more acceptance.
Step flashing needs to be verified first and foremost. It's verifiably not there.
Then the same flashing detail needs to happen that I described in another reply to you. A piece of flat flashing needs to be slid behind the first piece of step flashing and the bottom of the J, then down onto the snap lock of the nearest piece of siding.
A roof run that big I'd probably use a 2' wide by 4' long piece of aluminum coil stock. That would ensure that the water would fall onto the siding before it ran onto the house wrap. Sounds like a plan.
Vinyl is a great product, alot of people bash it here. Address the details and it's as good as anything else out there. Thank you. Sounds like there's hope for us yet. Lots of details though...
The details have to be addressed or it is not going to last.
Wish I had some vinyl siding pictures that showed some of these details. Next job I'll get some.
Woods favorite carpenter
Vinyl siding is alot like another product that is used on alot of homes, no one bashes this product though. Because the details are done this product works.
Asphalt shingles is that product, water gets behind them in certain cases and if you step flash them it's a good system. Without flashing it's no better than a holy tarp. Aprons are also used, water is going to get in, give it a way out and the system performs excellent for many years. Woods favorite carpenter
Dave you're getting better, but you still need to work on your pictures a little. The second one is great. The first one you zoomed in a bit too close.
"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Dave,
Are we looking at the roof of the addition your " contractor" built?
Did he strip the siding back so that he could run building paper up the wall and have room to properly flash the shingles?
If you don't feel comfortable trying to ascertain whats taken place on the exterior of your home- hire someone to inspect and take pictures9 with better focus than some of yours)
You may need them when poopie hit the fan!
Are we looking at the roof of the addition your " contractor" built?
Did he strip the siding back so that he could run building paper up the wall and have room to properly flash the shingles?
The house is about 20 years old, so when we did the addition, which increased the size of the house by nearly 1/3, we also replaced the entire roof and all of the siding.
If you don't feel comfortable trying to ascertain whats taken place on the exterior of your home- hire someone to inspect
I have a feeling that we're going to do just that. Right now, we're planning to give the contractor a chance to make things right. If we reach an impasse, that's when we would bring in an independent expert. If you think we should take a different approach, please let me know.
From what you've said in these several threads and the pictures of the work that I've seen, I think it would be like pi**ing in the wind to let him try and rectify the situation.
His workmanship or that of his subs is below par on many fronts- maybe he doesn't know quality work or perhaps he doesn't care.
Hire someone to document and photograph the deficiencies and deduct the figures to correct from his total.
From what you've said in these several threads and the pictures of the work that I've seen, I think it would be like pi**ing in the wind to let him try and rectify the situation.
His workmanship or that of his subs is below par on many fronts- maybe he doesn't know quality work or perhaps he doesn't care.
A few days ago he came over and told me that let go the last of his employees, and that he was going on vacation till Feb. 2.
The contractor's own personal work seems to be acceptable, but he hired unskilled people and has been trying to cover for their mistakes.
Hire someone to document and photograph the deficiencies and deduct the figures to correct from his total.
About 1/3 of the 131 punch list items the independent assessor found are cosmetic, obvious, and easy to fix, so I think he can handle these. This isn't a formal punch list, that I'm going to hand to him, I'm just going to ask him to take care of them. Meanwhile we're documenting the more important stuff.
Hi Dave,
what part of Delaware are you in?
Just wondering.
I live in North Wilmington ( I95 & Marsh rd )
There has been a lot of construction in my area over the last 15 years. Much of it is slap together / can't see it from my house quality.
we have a 1200 sq' rancher and actually gave up on having a second floor addition built. The builders we spoke to in this area are a rough bunch.
My guess is all the "good guy's" were busy with the big money houses around here.
Bill
what part of Delaware are you in? Bear
There has been a lot of construction in my area over the last 15 years. Much of it is slap together / can't see it from my house quality. We know all about it down here. Brookmont Farms is less than 10 minutes away...
we have a 1200 sq' rancher and actually gave up on having a second floor addition built. The builders we spoke to in this area are a rough bunch. Thinking of Capano? That could start a whole new thread ;^)
Dave,You're F##KED in plain English. You have no step flashing and that's all you need to know. You're roof is wrong and you're roofer has to fix it period! There's no further discussion on this. If you owe him any money, don't give him one penny. You contractor has to fix this no matter what. End of conversation!!!!Just like your bay window.You're F##KED on that also. No need to discuss the bay window any more either. It has to be fixed.How's he going to slide step flashing up underneath the j-channel when the j-channel has nails in it. How will the step flashing pass the nails?Joe Carola
Edited 1/24/2008 9:22 am ET by Framer
You're F##KED in plain English. You have no step flashing and that's all you need to know...
Just like your bay window.You're F##KED on that also. No need to discuss the bay window any more either. It has to be fixed.
How's he going to slide step flashing up underneath the j-channel when the j-channel has nails in it. How will the step flashing pass the nails?
Yup. Working out the salvage operation and gearing up for the legal stuff.
What should be done to make it right?
There may be nothing seriously wrong. The step flashing may be in there, but the J channel is so tight to the ahingles we can't see it. The biggest concern is the absence of a kickout flashing at the bottom, which will allow water behing the siding.
http://grantlogan.net/
Actually according to this document http://www.vinylsiding.org/publications/Installation_Manual_english.pdf (p. 25) the kickout flashing is one option; the other is to make a flat diverter that just covers the nail holes in the first siding course below the bottom shingle. Maybe that's how it was done in this case?
Does anyone know if this diverter flashing is a generally accepted method? I made kickout flashing for my screen porch addition, but my garage roof is flashed with these diverters.
I found the two options on page 31 of the pdf file, which is page 25 of the instruction file. I know it sounds confusing but I'm just trying to help. Thanks for that link. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I seldom work around vinyl siding and have to admit I've never seen the diverter flashing detail, but I like it. Only problem I see, is if there's a gutter, the kickout directs the water into the gutter where the diverter will let it go behind the end cap. Probably no big deal. http://grantlogan.net/
"Because I really want to live in a country where the poor people are fat. "- Unidentified Indian Immigrant when asked why he wants to come to America
according to this document http://www.vinylsiding.org/publications/Installation_Manual_english.pdf (p. 25) the kickout flashing is one option; the other is to make a flat diverter that just covers the nail holes in the first siding course below the bottom shingle. Maybe that's how it was done in this case?
Thank you for the link to this vinil installation manual. I finally got the time to read through it and got lots of useful information. Guess the contractor can still choose between kickout and diverter because neither exist yet ;^) We'll be discussing flashing this week.
What CU said. My bet is that the step flashing is under there and that there is nothing wrong with the main part of the roof-wall interface.
Re the bottom corner, again as CU said, there appears to be no kick-out flashing, but it's difficult to really say. Can't see. Need a slightly different viewing angle. Sometime kick-out flashings can be a bit hard to spot - see attached pic.
The other thing is that the bottom end of the J-channel is supposed to be "turned out" which serves a similar function to the kick-out flashing. Probably couldn't see that without actually getting on the roof. Look at fig. 34 on this document, and the text a few bullets above it.
Other than that, the J-channel is technically supposed to be held up off the roof about 1/2 to 1" - according to "the directions" - but with vinyl siding I don't see it as a really big deal.
Edit - if the vilyl work in the attached pic looks suspect, it's HfH = nuff said...
Edited 1/22/2008 6:33 pm ET by Matt
My bet is that the step flashing is under there and that there is nothing wrong with the main part of the roof-wall interface.
Got on the roof and checked. No flashing of any kind. The j-mold is jammed hard on top of the shingles and nailed to the top of the Tyvek. It looks like the ice and water shield was used as flashing, from under the shingles to a few inches up the wall.
...there appears to be no kick-out flashing, but it's difficult to really say.
No kick-out flashing either.
...The other thing is that the bottom end of the J-channel is supposed to be "turned out" which serves a similar function to the kick-out flashing. Probably couldn't see that without actually getting on the roof.
Doesn't turn out -- runs straight almost to the end of the roof -- about 2" short, and feeds right into a cut piece of siding.
Doesn't sound good at all....
Hate to say it, but re the no step flashing, that's some really half-a$$ed sheet. Never known a pro who would leave that out. The other items need to be fixed too.
Hold out on the final payment. If he gives you a hard time, check with your state licensing board - if there is one...
Edited 1/25/2008 5:48 am ET by Matt
I have a client who went around me a couple of years ago. I gave her an estimate on a roof using a sub I know and trust to take direction well. For some reason she decided to hire someone else on her own. He charged about 2 grand more, and didn't step flash. He ice and watered the entire deck and up onto the sidewall, and then ran a giant piece of coil stock down the side wall as a big L flashing, then shingled over that. Plus he used the wrong color shingles and wouldn't admit it.I had to came in after him and put in steps.Now I'm sure that with ice and water up the wall, followed by the coil stock it wouldn't have leaked, but I still put the steps in to be sure. I think people get really sloppy because they think Ice and water shield is forever.Steve
If he gives you a hard time, check with your state licensing board - if there is one
There is. Thank you!
Dave, what came first-siding or roofing?
A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Cal:
If I'm doing a vinyl house the flashing and roofing goes first, then the vinyl. I'f I'm doing Hardie plank, the siding come first, but only after a "preflash" by the roofers. I guess there is nothing to say that one couldn't do a preflash with vinyl siding too, so to me "what came first" is somewhat academic.
"If I'm doing a vinyl house the flashing and roofing goes first, then the vinyl. I'f I'm doing Hardie plank, the siding come first, but only after a "preflash" by the roofers."'Splain pleez for us non-roofers. Why would Hardie be installed before roofing necessarily but vinyl not so?At H4H her in OC Cal, we use concrete tile, so any kind of siding always goes on first to avoid tile breakage.BruceT
First I don't know anything about concrete tile roofs....
RE the other thing, for a Hardie sided house, roofers come out and preflash - install the flashing. This is so that the flashing can end up under the siding in the appropriate places. Then the siders come and install the cement board, etc. Then painters caulk and paint the exterior. This way they don't have to worry about getting paint on the roof. Then the roofers come and finish the roof by installing the asphalt roofing shingles. Otherwise, if the siders went first, the roofers are stuck trying to slide their flashing up behind the siding which may or may not work too well depending on how the siders nailed the siding.
With vinyl siding there is no need to worry about paint getting on the roof so it can go after the roofing, but the siders have to be careful when walking, etc on the roof so they don't mess it up.
It's easy to step flash behind hardie, assuming the carpenters didn't nail in the last half foot. We keep our nails back 12". Even a rookie could step flash that. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Matt that was a great post
That's why I asked dave. With the way it's crammed down on top of the shingles I would think that would only be possible if the roofing was on there when it was sided. But those later bay window picture shots show I think if I remember correctly, the siding on with just paper or watershield or whatever that stuff was. Beats me.
Detailing (flashing and water sealing) vinyl or even aluminum for that matter is not ............that easy. And from my experience following it, not often. "J" for example covers the raw edge. One of it's side effects is that it directs water. Where is the big question.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
I didn't see the bay window pics... another thread?
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=99810.23
There's a single finished picture at the beginning of the thread.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Doesn't look too good. Looks like it could have used a preflash :-)
Now I see the origin of your "what came first" Q....
what came first-siding or roofing?
The roofing came first, and the siding came right behind it. This picture shows that phase of the work.
Dave, there could be flashing tucked behind the tyvek, but you'll probably have to take it apart a little to see for sure.Steve
Dave,
We haven't had an update in awhile on the progress of getting your GC to correct all number of things.
Care to fill us in ?
Thanks, Walter
We haven't had an update in awhile on the progress of getting your GC to correct all number of things.
Well, almost nothing happened this past week. The contractor has not shown up yet, although he called a couple of times to see if the Corian installers came over and installed the bathroom sink so he could call the plumber to hook things up. The Corian guys came on Tuesday and contractor said the plumber would come in today.
There is some new news, but it's not exactly "progress," as you can see in the photos. I checked out the tile job for the tub shortly before the Corian guys came over and found that the tiles were not in a straight line. Then I discovered that the grout was not mixed properly -- in fact, it's sand.
I had picked out the tile and grout color (Spectra Lock light Pewter) and actually bought it for the contractor -- I was at Lowes, it was relatively cheap, and I wanted to make sure he got the right colors and patterns. Apparently he didn't realize that Spectra Lock is a 3-part product and the colored powder was only part C. He must have mixed it with water instead of getting the bucket with A and B.
After the Corian installers put in the sink, I also noticed that the mirror wasn't centered on one of the two sinks. It turns out that this was not because the sink basin was in the wrong place. The mirror wasn't centered on the sink stand underneath when the contractor installed them both.
Didn't want to discuss these things with the Contractor over the phone, but I asked him to come over today and he said he would. Before we get into any of the items you already know about, he's going to have to fix the tile and grout.
At this point I've completely lost confidence in the guy in every way. The plan is now to stand over him and inspect everything he does every step of the way until our bathrooms are usable. After that, there's a few purely cosmetic fixes I'm going to ask him to do, but then I'm going to ask him to take care of some of the issues that he is likely to refuse to do. If he does them, I will stand over him. If he walks, we're done. We keep the last $10K and go after the bond money to bring the place up to code.
To give you a sense of this guy's mindset, last week I asked him about adding handrails to the exterior concrete staircase into the basement, which he had neglected to install. He told me that he didn't think code required it. Of course, I looked up county code on-line that night and found the section requiring rails for all egress staircases. Been waiting to show him that too. But more important than code, it's just plain reckless to not have handrails in a concrete staircase -- wouldn't be hard to kill someone that way. But he figured we didn't need it.
As my grandfather used to say, "if you didn't have bad luck, you'd have no luck at all."
I hope that some day you can laugh about this experience, or at least not cry.
I hope that some day you can laugh about this experience, or at least not cry.
Maybe we can come out ahead with this after all: We can start working on a script for a sequel to "The Money Pit" called "The Addition."
"The Addition"
LOL, I know you're joking, but stranger things have happened. Maybe someone will pay you at least the amount this fiasco is costing you for the movie rights.
On second thought, your situation is all too common.
I have a friend who's contractor went out of business before the holidays not having even started his project. Of course, the contractor already has the down payment money and my friend had already completed the demo work in preparation for the project start. Now they are living in a torn up house talking to lawyers with precious little hope of seeing anything any time soon.
At least you have something to show for your troubles.
At least you have something to show for your troubles.
True. At least our guy is trying to work with us to a certain degree. He may cut corners and has to be watched and corrected, but he didn't abscond with our money.
Quick update. Tile work around tub is still being redone, but no problems so far. In addition, the contractor took care of 6 of the 160 items on our private punch list, such as centering the medicine cabinet on the sink and sanding and painting some unfinished mud around some outlets. He also installed the sink for father-in-law's bathroom. Plumber came over and installed toilets and most plumbing; will finish on Monday.
In other words, the value of the work that remains to be done has been brought down by a significant amount today. And we're going to try to keep this going until the only items that remain on our list are either ones we don't want him to touch or ones he refuses to do.
Hand the grouter a roll of tape to to protect the cab doors, if he doesn't have enough sense to remove them before grouting.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
Hand the grouter a roll of tape to to protect the cab doors
Good suggestion. Thank you!
Recessed medicine cabinet? He has a stud just to the right of the outlet which won't let him move the cabinet to center on the sink unless he modifies something.
Edited 2/22/2008 10:07 am by dovetail97128
Dave,
Thank you for the update.
I'm very sorry to hear it seems to be getting worse instead of better.
I hope the 10k liquidated damages will offset the costs involved with making things right.
Best wishes, Walter
I'm very sorry to hear it seems to be getting worse instead of better.
The good news is that the contractor is here right now. We talked about exactly what needed to be done with the tile and the medicine cabinet. He accepted this without a gripe (kind of hard to argue after your grout turns to sand), and I'm checking up on him every hour or so to make sure nothing goes off-track. We'll see what happens, but so far so good.
Dave,
I'm pretty sure all who are following your travails here are hoping for the best possible resolution for you and your extended family.
At some point your contractor will likely walk , but hopefully leaving enough green to have someone else finish up.
Walter
that is not recessed- it is surface mount style. The mistake was that he installed it before the sink.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
The knob is a dummy ? I couldn't be certain from the pic.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
The knob is a dummy ?
You were right when you said it was a surface mount, and when I said "mirror" I should have said "medicine cabinet". The knob is real.
Not sure what you are saying about the knob, but the cabinet makes a shadow across the wall, and you can see the crown returns at the top about 5-6 inches.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
So I see when I take the time to look after I scroll the pic so I can!!
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Latest update: Still not a lot to report. But maybe THAT's the news.
Contractor came over and is redoing the tub area. He put hardibacker board on the wall behind the tub (instead of the original blueboard) and will take the tile up two rows instead of the original one row.
We also came up with a better way to handle the tile top of the apron so that it will cover the all of the wood on the sides. The photo shows the current state of things, although the molding that the tile will partially rest on is now stained and polyeurethaned. The unstained molding stands out in the photo so you can see it.
Contractor only showed up one day last week, though, as did the plumber. Plumber is due to come in on Tuesday, and he expects to wrap up his side of the job that day. Not sure what's going on with the contractor, though. He is aware of several issues he could be working on right now, ranging from flashing the garage roof to adding a handrail to the outdoor basement staircase. These are code issues.
Seems strange that the contractor is now moving so slowly on this job, especially because it was supposed to be done in November. He knows that we're trying to get my wife's father into his room so we can look after him directly while he gets hospice care. The doctors have finally declared him terminal, although he could probably linger on for another month or two.
We're not waiting on the contractor yet to move Dad in, because we still have to line up the nurses, rent equipment, and make sure we've covered all of his needs, but the pressure is now on in a big way to finish the bedrooms and bathrooms ASAP. While the issues in Dad's bed and bath are minor cosmetics, they will be very hard to do after the furniture is in and impossible to do once Dad is here.
Plan to call contractor Monday and find out what his plan is. Any thoughts?
That's being re-done without protecting the tub or the cabs?
That's being re-done without protecting the tub or the cabs?
Hi Splintergroupie, and thank you for the tip; I'll need some help though to figure out what to do. I've never done this stuff before, so he could be doing things all wrong right in front of me and I wouldn't even know it. And at this point, I have no faith in his judgement.
What should he be doing to protect the tub and the cabinets? Do you see anything else? Any advice you can give would be appreciated.
There are semi-sticky coverings to put on tubs, but at the least, drape a canvas tarp to collect debris so it isn't ground into the tub and will cushion a hammer fall. I cut a piece of cardboard to fit in the bottom of a tub with i'm demo'ing around it to give further protection. For the cabs, i'd mask them off with painters' tape and plastic to keep mortar and whatever off the finish, then put cardboard around that to make sure they don't get whacked. It would cost less than $10 and 20 minutes to make sure you don't have another major item like "tub chip" or "replace cabinet door" to your punch list.
There are semi-sticky coverings to put on tubs, but at the least, drape a canvas tarp to collect debris...
Many thanks. I'll ask him to do these the next time he comes in.
dave: I'm sorry all this has happened to you.
This should be a lesson for the rest of us about how the customer thinks.
coulpe of things on the list. j channel can touch concrete. I like to silicone it down. As far as the beam in the basement. if it is unfinished space I don't think you can reasonably expect him to paint. The rust is most likely surface and has not penetrated the paint on the beam. I don't understand the part of bolting the beam to basement, if it has sufficent bearing, its not going anywhere.
Couple of things on the list...
Thank you for the perspective. I'm no pro, so I basically I took notes while a third-party consultant went over the place. Are there any other opinions on these items, one way or the other?
They wouldn't pass a house in MI if the beam wasn't painted even if the basements were "basements". Quite often, the steel supplier would paint the beam but it still needed repainting to pass inspection. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
1) "There are semi-sticky coverings to put on tubs, but at the least, drape a canvas tarp to collect debris so it isn't ground into the tub and will cushion a hammer fall. I cut a piece of cardboard to fit in the bottom of a tub with i'm demo'ing around it to give further protection..."2) "Tell him your deadline and why..."Did both, and saw a lot happen this week. Asked for the tub to be protected during construction and it was. The small chips on the lip of the tub were easily concealed by a bead of silicone caulk between the tub and tile.Didn't even have to ask for him to replace his wet saw blade, because last week, after trying to convince me that it was impossible to cut the tile angle-pieces cleanly and then watching me pull out my own Felker and make a perfect cut for him, he got a new blade while reassuring me that his wet saw was actually better than mine.I basically took on the role of GC with him as my subcontractor, and through regular checks and consultations we got an acceptable result, which can be seen in the attached photo. If you see anything that you think we should deal with, please let me know.Also, by keeping in regular contact, I was able to bring up a whole bunch of the punch list items in an off-hand way and have him fix them. Probably got through about 40 of them, with him knowing about another 10.The big news is that one of the punch-list items that came up was the seepage in the basement, because we've had a long hard storm and water was actually burbling through in one corner. I took pictures, plus a video where you can hear the water burbling, and called him up to come over. He came, he saw, he agreed that something had to be done. The rest of the story is in the "Seepage in Basement" thread.
Edited 3/8/2008 3:36 pm ET by DelawareDave61
Tell him your deadline and why.
If he gives you resistance, be nice but clear that while it is not his problem that you have an ailing fam. member, please to be considerate of that.
Note: Make sure all the paint, etc is at the house so you can handle the touch ups and repairs once he is done.
Note #2
I have a friend who is a painter/misc. contractor and lives right down the road in Perch Creek. (40 towards 896)
He might be a little busy right now but could help with a little here and there as necessary perhaps.
I am in PA only 45 min.away and could give you 1/2 day if it would help.
(I used to live in Pinewoods off 72)
I dont have NCC license yet but have State and Wilm City license so I would could not even charge you if I wanted. (fines are like $750 for 1st offense of not being licensed)
[email protected]
I have a friend who is a painter/misc. contractor and lives right down the road in Perch Creek. (40 towards 896)...I am in PA only 45 min.away and could give you 1/2 day if it would help.
That is a wonderful offer. We have the paint, and I've got a punch list with 171 items on it, ranging from things that can be done in a few minutes to major fixes.
Whenever you can come over, please let me know. If you'd like to see the latest version of the punch list, it's attached. Any items you take on would be a big help.
(Also, apologies for the deleted message -- posted when I meant to attach, and couldn't figure out how to attach via editing)
if I was him, which I'm not, if I saw this list, I would walk. The more you get him to do before he walks the better. wow...
"if I was him, which I'm not, if I saw this list, I would walk. The more you get him to do before he walks the better."That's the plan. The good news is that a lot of work has been accomplished in the bathrooms in the past few days. And with Splintergroupie's helpful suggestion about protecting the tub and paneling with cardboard and masking tape, the result came out fairly well, although the contractor still managed to chip the outside lip of the tub slightly in a few places. At this point, I'm figuring on repairing the chips, though it is sad to have to do this with a brand-new tub. If you have any suggestions on this, please let me know.If the contractor keeps up the pace, we should have all of the cosmetic issues taken care of by the end of the week. Next week will be more challenging. I'm still not showing him the punch list; I just keep spoon-feeding him new fix-up jobs as he finishes other ones. He already knows about the flashing on the roof and the rail for the outside basement staircase. After that comes the fix-ups for the vynyl siding at the corners. After that comes the job of flashing the windows with more than Tyvek. If he's still with us through that, we'll start getting into the really nasty stuff, like re-doing a bent wall in the Great Room, re-waterproofing the outside basement wall, and replacing the hardwood floors.
chip repairs on a tub look repaired....
there's outfits that specialize doing just that but over time.... it looks repaired...
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