Tide (Detergent) as Insulation???
cargin
| Posted in Energy, Heating & Insulation on
All
Opened up a roof today to find 2″ of this insulation, that looks like Tide detergent.
The house was built in 1981′ or 82′. I was a newbie on the crew and I remember them trying out this miracle insulation that only took a couple of inches to give you R-38.
We apparently they bought the concept. Thru the years I assumed that if that is what they did then they would figure out from the heat bills that it didn’t work.
Well the house still has it and they must be heating the outdoors.
Those are 2×10″s in the picture. I am going to have a talk with the owner tomorrow.
But has anybody else seen this stuff before? I am curious what it is.
Thanks
Rich
Replies
Perlite, perhaps?
http://www.perlite.net/
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Fat Roman
I know what perlite looks like.
When we insulated houses for LIHEAP we would drain it out of the cavities and throw it away.
Thanks for the reply.
Rich
Are you sure you didn't mistake vermiculite for perlite before? Vermiculite (often under trade name "Zonolite" was shipped world-wide for use as insulation.That pic looks like perlite, which is a great soil additive for gardens, by the way, for its water-holding ability.
Edited 9/17/2008 11:46 pm by splintergroupie
Splinter
I must be mistaken.
I think we have used perlite and vermiculite interchangably.
Vermiculite is the expanded mica..
Okay so now I know what perlite looks like.
I am just suprised that las late as 1981 people were still using vermiculite as insulation.
Rich
Roman
I guess I am wrong.
Again. LOL
Rich
Rich,No worries on my part. It was just a guess from me anyway.But on that link I had in the earlier post, it did look like Perlite could be milled to various tolerances. And there were some photos where it looked a lot more like Tide, than little rocks.So, you going to try washing some clothes in it? :)Best,
Steve'Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt man doing it' ~ Chinese proverb
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Carg
Pretty sure that is Perlite b/c I saw it in someone's attic a few years ago and when I asked what it was that's what they told me. Seemed finer then what I use in my plants and garden but probably b/c it's specifically for insul. Probably comes in several sizes.
The other weird thing too in that attic buried in that insul was heating coils.
Radiant heat in the ceiling. First time I ever saw that although I did know it existed. They said it worked great.
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
http://www.ramdass.org
"I am Andybuildz and I approve this post"
Andy
Everyone else in agreement with you.
Rich
Well if it IS Tide Detergent save it - it's worth a fortune ;o)Jeff
Everyone else in agreement with you.
Wowwwwww...thats a first..lol
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
http://www.ramdass.org
"I am Andybuildz and I approve this post"
Expanded perlite - at 2" depth gives you max. R-5 (if I did that right)
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Edited 9/18/2008 1:14 am ET by Jeff_Clarke
Jeff
Thanks for the correction.
Rich
well, if that is a pennies worth of perlite, I suppose it is pretty expensive insulation.;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Looks to me like styrofoam beads, but could be darn near anything.
That's from an Albino mouse you better call an exterminator.
According to the DOE, perlite and vermiculite are used interchangeably. I think I've always used them to mean the expanded mica type insulation pellets. I've seen a lot of insulation in my day ... but never Tide that you show. According to DOE, SOME perlite/vermiculate CAN have levels of asbestos in it (depending on the source). Generally, these insulations are OK ... they do a job. You just don't see them much anymore. Unless you have a need to pull it out, may be best to leave it along and add to it if you are so inclined.
clewless 1
perlite and vermiculite are used interchangeably. I think I've always used them to mean the expanded mica type insulation pellets.
At least I am not alone on this one.
Thanks for giving me something to hang on to that I am not an idiot about insulation. LOL
I thought I had seen or crawled thru) it all until this.
Rich,
If the DOE said that ... they could not be more wrong. They are entirely different minerals, mined in different areas, and have nothing in common (other than that they're both used as insulation). In the early 80's therw WAS a product, claimed to be a ceramic, that looked quite a bit like perlite - or ground styrofoam, for that matter. The stuff was touted as absolutely fireproof, vermin proof, immunt to water and mold ... and to have an insulating value comparable to styrofoam. Was this just hyped-up perlite? I don't know.
Interesting. Must be one of those commonly misconstued/misunderstood things. It's been a long time since I've worked around the terms and in my old age I tend to have a little CRS.
Don't feel bad. Far too much if "what we know" comes from media sound bites - which are notorious for poor presentation, incomplete statements, and outright errors. For example, every former soldier can recall instances where some reporter called an artillery piece a 'tank.'
I usually pride myself in knowing the lingo of my trade ... but there's always something that will trip me up. I don't believe everything a salesman tells me ... I have to find it out through other sources. While media sound bites may catch my interest ... I don't stop there ... I dig for the real story, the complete story.
I guess the CRS in my old age forgot about the difference between perlite and vermiculite.
Hey, Reno,Where did you come across the stuff? I ran into it in Mich.AitchKay
I hope it didn't cause any damage to the car.
Corporation: n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility. --Ambrose Bierce
Well, the bags are soft, kinda like sacks of flour, so no, no initial damage. Low speed, and all that. The problem was that I mistook the stuff for Tide, and started to scrub my car with it.Luckily, I figured it out before I'd done more than the hood. A can of flat-black primer fixed everything, and gave my Mercury Meteor a sort of way-cool, Dukes of Hazzard, look.So, no. No problem. But it's nice to know you care.AitchKay
Hey, don't sell the Dukes short -
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Jeff ;o)
In 79-80 ... just before I went overseas for a bit ... I encountered sales reps at a variety of trade shows hawking the stuff. They usually had it displayed, with a torch applied to the underside, and a cup of ice sitting on the top.
When, much later, I encountered perlite, I thought "aha! this is the stuff!" Alas, erlite has nothing like the insulation valuse claimed by the vendors for their stuff ... which they described as a porous ceramic with a glass glaze. These vendors also claimed that the stuff was widely used in foundries and steel mills- though I never saw any in one.
So long as it isn't Zonolite - a ticking time bomb - http://www.nbc5.com/money/1993941/detail.html
Edited 9/20/2008 1:11 am ET by Jeff_Clarke
Seems to me that if the Zonolite were that dangerous, all sorts of people, especially in the town where it fell like snow, would have had asbestosis! Maybe they have and I just haven't heard of it.
I think that the article I read said some of the materials MAY contain asbestos, not necessarily all.
if the Zonolite were that dangerous, all sorts of people, especially in the town where it fell like snow, would have had asbestosis
Google is your friend. Check out "Libby, Montana", where the Zonolite was mined.WHAT THE PUCK???
This is neither the time, nor the place, to rehash the wildly varying positions about vermiculite, and the alleged hazards some assert. There are plenty of other threads on that topic.
All that does matter is that the material described by the OP might be perlite, but is certainly not vermiculite, any more than it is fiberglass.
No one died and made you King so i'll be the arbiter of what i post, not you. Remember that.
Edited 9/23/2008 5:41 pm by splintergroupie
Actually, after Reno dies of asbestosis I'm going to be king.
There is no absurdity that human beings will not resort to in order to defend another absurdity. -- Cicero
Geez Louise...i just blew the Power Wagon grease outta ma nose... <snort>WHAT THE PUCK???
That's quite allright ... feel free to post any irrelevant, misleading, or off-topic stuff you like. Don't be surprised if your comments are ignored, as .... irrelevant, misleading, or off-topic.
We're talking about perlite ..... or that ceramic I described. Nothing else.
At post #17 vermiculite was introduced, right after albino moose, i think. Since my husband died of that "safe" asbestos, i've become something of an expert on fraudulent information disseminated by the industry and try to counter it. It seemed there was some misinformation about whether perlite and vermiculite was the same thing, some discussion about how dangerous it was, then a comment by me to someone (who was not you) to point him toward some more info on the topic he was musing about.
We were managing fine without your hall-monitor contributions, but knock yourself out. I imagine you'll have similar success as you do ignoring my irrelevant posts.
Hey, cargin,Renostienke got it right.In the early 80s, a ceramic product, originally designed as fireproofing (for I-beams, etc.) was re-marketed as a miracle insulation. It was called Fire Guard Lite. I assume that was the original name of the fireproofing product, and that no attempt was made to rename and repackage it.Although FGL and perlite are both white beads, the FGL does indeed look more like Tide. Perlite beads are much larger, often 1/8" in diameter or so.I called Oak Something (Ridge, maybe?) Laboratories, in Tennessee, about FGL, and was told that the claims of its insulating properties were grossly inflated by people who did not understand the science, people who had been impressed by how much a thin sprayed-on layer did to protect I-beams in fires, and who then extrapolated from there to make these wildly-inflated insulating claims.The 2" depth that you found is consistent with the claims made at the time. It would be spread over a ceiling, as you found it, or Tyvek could be stapled between rafters to provide ventilating space. The 2" depth was a big selling point for people who wanted to finish off attics that had been built with 2x4 rafters.The good news is that is inert and non-toxic, although I'd imagine there might be silicosis-like problems with the dust from it. It was originally packaged with a very high moisture content in order to minimize dust during installation.AitchKay
AitchKay
Thanks for the reply.
This has been bugging me for a while. I'll save the thread in my favorites.
Some how I didn't get any e-mail about this reply. I was just wandering around when I found this.
Again thank you.
Rich
Jeff
Thank you for the report. I have probably crawled thru alot of Zonolite and drained garbage bags of it out of sidewalls.
But think renosteinke is closest to the mark. I remember my boss (in 1981) talking about this new insulation product they were going to use on this house and how he was looking in to being a dealer for. I don't know where I was at the time but I don't remember installing it.
Rich
From:
renosteinke <!----><!---->
Sep-19 7:37 pm
To:
Clewless1 <!----><!---->unread
(19 of 20)
110047.19 in reply to 110047.17
In the early 80's therw WAS a product, claimed to be a ceramic, that looked quite a bit like perlite - or ground styrofoam, for that matter. The stuff was touted as absolutely fireproof, vermin proof, immunt to water and mold ... and to have an insulating value comparable to styrofoam.