Hello everyone- a tile question from a DIY veteran, message board newbie.
I’m planning on laying tile in a family room/ kitchen, that currently has pier and beam floor, with 3/4 ply subfloor, topped by 1/2 particle board and some ’60s vintage vinyl or linoleum. I *suspect* the linoleum has asbestos (my neighbor’s did, same vintage) so I don’t want to tear it up. There is no noticeable deflection in the floor when I jump up and down on it. Conventional wisdom says I should lay backerboard on top of the linoleum, and lay the tile on top. BUT, this will raise the finish level of the floor quite a bit (adjoining floors are hardwood).
Here’s my question: could I lay the tile directly on top of the linoleum? This would keep the finish level closer to the neighboring hardwood. Anyone have any wisdom to offer? Will latex modified thinset stick? Will the grout crack? Will the whole project implode and cause my wife and kids to leave me for the UPS driver? Thanks in advance for your help.
-Kevin
Replies
Will latex modified thinset stick? Probably not.
Will the grout crack? Yes, the first time you walk on the floor.
Will the whole project implode and cause my wife and kids to leave me for the UPS driver? Yes, if not the UPS guy, the tilesetter your wife hires to tear out your floor and install a new one properly.
1. Never install over a vinyl floor. It has give or flex which will cause cracking. Movement in a tile floor is the enemy.
2. Never install over particleboard. If this substrate gets wet (even minimally) it swells and cracks the floor.
Rip out the vinyl and particleboard and use 1/4" Hardiebacker set in thinset as a tile base. The heights will be close.
carpenter in transition
Well, the particle board has been there for 35 years and hasn't swelled yet. As I said, the linoleum probably has asbestos, so it's staying put. The linoleum isn't the "cushiony" stuff you may be thinking of. At this point it more resembles hardboard than anything else. You can't even dent it with a fingernail!
Anyway, between the two choices of backerboard over the linoleum vs. only tile, your vote would be for backerboard, Tim. (I've had enough experience with backerboard over linoleum to be comfortable with its performance) It's my first choice also. I was just wondering if anyone out there had put tile directly on old linoleum, and could offer any first person or long term advise.
Well, the particle board has been there for 35 years and hasn't swelled yet.
The other issue with pb is that it isn't very strong. Your current floor may not meet the required stiffness (i.e. deflection no greater than 1/360 of the span), which *may* lead to cracking. Will it for sure? who knows... like Jeff said it is definitely possible you could stick the tile down right on top of the lino and be fine for many years. Just don't be surprised or too peeved if it doesn't work out. I guess it depends on what your investment in time and $$ is worth to do it right (or whether you're selling the house soon... {G} )
You should contact the mfg of a couple brands of thinset to see what they say about its compatibility with lino. I use both Custom and Mapei and they are both very sticky. The mfg will probably tell you to abrade the surface first, which you obviously don't want to do if there's asbestos in the floor. You might also look into a product like Schluter's ditra in lieu of bb, or some other sort of isolation membrane that may also give you water protection for the pb. Just a thought... And, also do a search at johnbridge.com and at the JLC tile forum (which seems to be DOA but has a lot of great stuff in the archives...)
I wouldn't install it over vinyl. I might want to add a sheet of backerboard and then tile. We get a lot of discussion of this issue over at my tile BB, John Bridge.com. Go over there and do a search.
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1927
Can ya do it...yes.
I'd lay 1/4 backer over the lino.......if it was for a customer.
For myself.....I'd lay right over the lino.
Use the right thinset and you'll have no problems. I do it "the right way" for customers all the time...to CYOA.....
I've done it "the wrong way"....ie...right over lino/vinyl...several times for myself and my family with no problems. Just use something sticky with some flex to it.
My Dad's entry is about 20 yrs young.....over lino...at the front door.....of an old leaky house...that has to expand and contract with the best of them.....and his still hasn't cracked yet either.
Your floor sounds plenty strong. JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite
I'd spend a couple of hours tearing up the lino and particle bd. It can be done wiothout releasing fibres into the air. Then I would put down cement baord and tile to my hearts content, knowing that it will stay there.
But then UPS drivers don't have a family life. They are machines - robots directed by geostationary satellites. If you wife leaves for him, trying to find some direction in her life, she might find it. If she leaves for fullfillment and satisfaction, she'll be right back.
LOL
Excellence is its own reward!
I'd spend a couple of hours tearing up the lino and particle bd. It can be done wiothout releasing fibres into the air.
Time for another thread theft...I've never done this, but I'm curious.. Is it the linoleum itself that can contain asbestos or the adhesive? Or both?
Disclaimer time: obviously, Kevin should get the floor tested for asbestos before removing any of it himself- and if it contains asbestos and he wants it out, he should hire a licensed abatement contrator, or do whatever is required by code. I am speaking purely in hypothetical terms.
Hypothetically, I've heard that as long as you don't grind or abrade the floor (i.e. with a sander), that there really isn't much danger in taking it out in chunks. Purely uneducated guessing, but I'm curious anyway. Hypothetically, how would you guys handle this?
It was in the early sixties that they started keeping asbestos out so odds are 50/50 that this doesn't have it. It was used in the tiles and in the adhesive. Keeping it misted damp while using sharp knife to make cuts and remove will keep dust fibres occupied swimming instead of launching into the air. It's really not that hard to peel a strip back and get a bar started in under the PB which just flakes and crumbles out from there.
As a professional, once you know that wsbestos exists, you have to call in the abatement team and spend megabucks. As a homeowner, he can do what ever he wants to get it up. He must dispose of it in doubled black plastic bags that are labeled as asbestos, by law - federal regulations, I think - not by code. The trash disposal company or municipality might have other rules, too.
What i hate is all the publicity about this that scares people into thinking that it is a serious poison. It is not. If you smoke and breathe in a lot of airborne fibres, you could develope a problem. If you are otherwise healthy and get a one time dose of a few hundred fibres, You'll never notice it. It is the scar tissue that forms around it in the lungs that causes the problem.
In order to get a good tile job without creating a step up, I would take it out of there without thinking about it and never begin to worry. You'll get more asbestos in your lungs from walking into almost any public building older than twenty years, than you will from removing this lino.
.
Excellence is its own reward!
What you have been told about the tile in this case is correct. The floor is made from what is called non-friable asbestos. As long as the material is chipped or scrapped off the floor the fibers will not be released. Only grinding, cutting or sanding will release the fibers. For removal the EPA has relaxed it requirements for abatement so that you no longer have to wear a resperator, Tyvek suit, and set up a negative air pressure system. If there is still a concern about releasing fibers then just keep it wet. In this case with the particleboard sub floor it would not be wise, but for other applications wet removal is very effective even for friable materials.
I personally would remove the tile, but disposal requires that it be disposed of in a very specific manner, which a liscensed asbestos abatement contractor is equipped to handle. Maybe Kevin can call an abatment contractor and just pay them to dispose of the materials. I am sure that an abatement contractor could supply the disposal bags. The bags have to be 20mil poly which state that they contain asbestos containing materials. The bag has to be twisted several times to form a neck at least 12" long. That neck has to be folded in half so that it is no shorter than 6" inches, then ducttape the hell out of it. I think the tape has to be wrapped somewhere between 8 to 10 revolutions around the goosneck or some specified width in inches. I don't remember exactly. That material then has to be transported to a dump which excepts asbestos materials and it has to be recorded with the person disposing of it and at the dump.
I was exposed to asbestos years ago and have since taken courses on asbestos awareness and resulting long term health effects. I also had to be authorized to perfom maintenance work in an area asbestos contaminated area. So one more piece of normally useless information added to my list of boring subjects :-)
But after Kevin reads this and decides that he could remodel his whole house for the cost of doing asbestos abatement (its not really that expensive) he will probably be laying his tile over the existing floor. Which would be acceptable by code just about anywhere if it were concealed with an overlay material.
A couple years ago I ran into the same problem. Customer did not want to raise floor height any more than neccasary. I installed tile directly over the vinyl using a thinset product called Miralastic ( my spelling could be wrong, check with a your tile sopplier). Anyway it seems to be working I have not been called back. I would only sugest this method as a last resort, I would agree with the majority out there that removing the old underlayment is the best option.
Thanks for your comments, everyone. Although I'm tempted to lay tile on lino to keep the height down, I'll probably chicken out and put down 1/4 bb first. I'll deal with the height issue somehow.
As for the "A" word, I *know* that its much more hazardous for pro's to work with 40 hours a week than for me to work with for several hours, one day out of my life. That said, I've got a wife, a 3 1/2 year old and a 1 1/2 year old, and I've got no interest in tearing up asbestos flooring if I don't have to. I hear what you guys are saying about keeping the subsurface solid, but frankly the particle board and lino looks solid to me, and so it's staying put.
You are absolutely insain to lay tile directly on vinyl composition tile ("VCT"). The tile will crack.
Here is a thread on the exact same issue, where a guy's mulit-thousand dollar tile job failed because. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . are you ready for this? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . drum roll please. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . He tiled directly on top of vinyl.
http://205.214.77.223/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4864
There is always a battle for preserving existing elevation and spec'ing the tile job, and homeowners want to take short cuts so they don't have to cut doors or make thresholds. There is a way to do your job correctly without elevation issues. Rip out the subfloor (whose afraid of a little asbestos anyway, you wimp) install a "Sturdifloor" (inch and an eighth t&g) use Ditra over the ply and you'll be perfect.
I let the tile construction method and elevation, not the other way around.
Regards,
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1927
Kevin......look into this site
Ditra.com . Its expensive but worth it I think, Soon to post a thread concerning it as I've been researching it pretty thoroly
Be well
Namaste'
Andy
"Attachment is the strongest block to realization"
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Mapie has a new trowel in mesh.......
looks to be real low profile....I haven't seen it in person yet...
just saw an ad in FHb or JLC.
Looks to be a good compromise......depending on how available..and how much $.
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite
JUst happened to reach up and check if the mag on top of the pile was the right one.....
still had the page marked!
in QR.....Qualified Remodeler....Dec 2002
Mapelath....."revolutionary plastic lath system for wood substrates"
http://www.mapei.com
says "use as a system with Ultracontact series mortars"
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite
Jeeze, what a can of worms I've opened. Thanks to everyone for your input- you're helping me make decisions with open eyes.
The original question was: "backerboard on top of old lino, or none to save height?" As usual, there's more to the story. There has been tile on top of 1/2 wonderboard on top of the lino for the last 20 years- I'm tearing out the tile and bb to make room for new tile. I'm not scared of cracking with tile on bb on lino- the floor is solid and the existing tile hasn't cracked a bit. I was *really* just asking if I could skip the bb, but I've decided not to. Nuff said.
As for asbestos- I'm giving it respect no matter what you guys say. My neighbor (who had the same lino I do- which has a high asbestos content vs., say, acoustic "popcorn" BTW) had it abated, and for 12 hours he had guys in tyvek and moon suits and respirators and full negative air containment. Overkill? Maybe. But knowing its there, I'm just not going to mess with it. Wimp? Sure, if you say so. But people have been getting sick for a long time with this stuff. They banned it for a reason. Given a choice between stirring it up or not, I'll choose not to, every time. My family and I may unknowingly get exposed to it elsewhere (I can't control that) but they won't get it at home if I can help it.
Thanks again, everyone.
My 70 year old uncle worked for GAF for most of his life and he cracks me up every time he tells me the story about one of his first jobs for them. He was an asbestos "fluff" tester. He would go into a room where the material was being blown ( you could barely see your hands in front of you) and pull out samples of the material and test its fluffiness. The fluffier material was more desirable and was used for specific applications.
Non friable asbestos in linoleum ? It's on my sandwich for tomorrow's lunch.
carpenter in transition