My husband and I are having a custom home built, and we are disappointed with the shower tile installations. We would appreciate it so much if you would take a look at the photos we’ve uploaded to our web site, and let us know your thoughts. (URL below)
Is the main issue simply ugly grout that needs to be cleaned up?
On the main floor, we chose tiles that were recified, specifically so the tiles could be installed with a 1/16th of an inch grout joint. The installer completely ignored this, and the grout joints are 1/8th. (Brown tiles in the photos.)
As professionals, do you find this installation acceptable? How would you handle a situation such as this with your sub if your client expressed their disappointment?
www.pinelakenews.com/tiles.htm
Thanks,
Chouter
Replies
Yes, the grout installation is ugly, but can be cleaned up. Who pays for that depends on what the deal you originally struck is.
Other than that, it is difficult to assess if you got a fair deal. You have not told us what sort of agreement you have with the Builder/ GC/ Sub.
What part of the country are you in? How much did you pay? What is the market rate for installation in your area, and according to who(m)?
What is "recified" tile?
Why did you choose such contrasting grout colors?
How long ago was the installation?
As has been stated here countless times - where do you figure in the time, quality and price balance?
F.
Thanks for responding. I'll try to answer your questions to give you a bit more perspective on the project. Our contract with our builder is fixed fee, which includes 16 percent overhead. The house is a high-end custom, been under construction now since 2/10/03. We're about two weeks away from occupancy. We used our builder's prefered vendors, and yes, we tried to see jobs previously completed by the vendors, but not this tile installer. We had a choice between "Bob the Master Tile Guy" and "Bob the guy who works out of his truck" and our job supervisor advised us to go with the former so that in the event something went wrong, we'd be able to get it fixed. The work you're seeing is that of "Bob the Master Tile Guy."
We are in the Seattle area, and the amount paid for the tile job included all the interior tile work, kitchen backsplash, five bathrooms, floor & showers, main floor (about 750 sq. ft) bathroom countertop in one bathroom. $33k. + 16% overhead. Yes, everyone was well-aware of the grout selections during the bidding process. And yes, the calibur of work is fairly consistent in all areas.
The tile jobs were originally completed about six weeks ago, and we asked that the obvious flaws be corrected, and that the grout lines be cleaned up. What you are seeing is the after, not the before. No, we are not expecting perfection. If we were, we would not have asked for opinions here, we would simply have insisted the work be corrected. It is because we don't want to be unreasonable that we've come here to ask "is this acceptable work?" Our builder has been very responsive to us, and we want to respect everyone's time and effort by not making unreaonable demands. That said, we're truely disappointed in this tile work. What could we possibly ask them to do considering corrections have already been made once?
No, we do not think all those white tiles are perfectly square. We know they're not. Some are pitted, and some are thicker, and so on. But we did expect that by ordering a significant overage that Bob the Master Tile Guy would throw away the pitted ones and selected the best from the bunch. He did not. He has replaced most of the pitted tiles installed, but he didn't replace all of them.
Rectified tiles are those that have been precision cut after manufacture to ensure that each tile is exactly the same size as the next. This is so the grout lines can be minimal - 1/16th" - the look was to be that our poured concrete. Our grout lines are 1/8th". This, and the funky cuts in the window bother me the most. I can't say the cuts would have bothered me as much if they had at least been consistent, but they vary from corner to corner.
THanks again for your comments. Anything else you care to share as to what is acceptable and what should be redone is appreicated.
Chouter
your not unreasonable !!!!
dont except it !!! plan english its a #### job & sloppy!!. If it was a new car would you accept the delivery of it if the paint had flaws ? Dont back down !!! & DONT TAKE A CREDIT FOR SOMETHING THAT CAN LEAK DOWN THE ROAD!!
there have been times i have dealt with people who are unreasonable this doesnt sound that way THIS IS A NEW HOME NOT A RENOVATION !!! The only thing that i hear that you did wrong is didnt have the specs in writting as to grout joint sizes. is there a clause in the contract about craftsmanship !! as far as how to fix it boy thats a sin take it down & do it right !!!! straight neat joints as well as the cuts it looks like he used a grinder to cut the tile
Thank you for your response. Yes, our contract does address quality of workmanship, and the size of the grout joint for the larger main floor tiles is in writing. 1/16th" is specified, as is the color of the grout to be used. Also, our contract is being administered by our architects, and they're not happy with the work either. What we have to decide is, how much of a delay are we willing to endure by asking for corrections? We're two weeks away from moving in, and delays are costly for everyone. There is a fine line out there, a cut off as to what is and isn't acceptable, and we're trying to find it. But even if we did insist that it be redone, I don't think we want Bob the Master Tile Guy to be the one to redo it.
hi
nice to know there are still alot of caring contractors isnt it !!In regards to the fact of the cost to everyone i can only assume you are not including yourself !!! Although you will end up with some inconvince this shouldnt cost you a dime.!!! GIVEN the fact you already paid for a PROFESSIONAL JOB !!! which you deffinetly didnt get
I know i dont know all the facts as to what delays & where you are at with the move in date,however these finish details reflect back to everyone !!! the builder the archtiect & everyone else who did a task & met trade standards.
seems to me everyone gets weak after a certain point!! but who suffers ??
will there be discussions about this everytime someone takes a shower or uses that bathroom ??dont sign off on it now then chew on it & hold as much money as you can see how nice the builder is when it comes to money !! if you chose to lay down on this i feel everyone who responded to you will also be disapointed !!
You've hit on some of the points we're having to consider, and that is what can we live with, and what will bother us forever. Hard to know. The bathrooms with the green tile, and two of the ones with the white tile and dark green grout are our children's baths. Will they notice? Nope. Will I, everytime I go in the room? Yep. The bathroom with the funky mitered cuts is the Master. I'll see it every single day. The other one is the guest room. Yeah, I'll notice that one, too.
Yes, when I say delays cost everyone I am including us. We won't have to pay for the fixes, or anything should we chose to have the tiles redone. But we're anticipating getting our certificate of occupancy in a matter of days. If tiles are to be torn down, reordered and reinstalled, our move-in will be delayed and we pay additional rent and storage, while our family of five continues to trip over each other in a tiny apartment. It's that fine line of cost, versus what we can live with that we are searching for. All the comments we've gotten here on Breaktime are very helpful to us in making that decision.
Another couple of weeks in that little apartment will be forgotten as soon as you move into that dream home of yours. If you don't have that tile fixed now, then it will bother you until you finally breakdown and PAY someone to do what you have already paid for now. Fix it now. Now is the appropriate time.
Besides, if you don't hold the GC or "Bob the Butcher" responsible now you will be sending the message to them both that it is ok to continue giving honest contractors a bad name and that it is ok to continue cheating homeowners out of what they have paid good money for. It's just not right.
Trust me, you could have done as well on that installation as Bob did. Did he actually do the work himself, or did he get backed up and have someone else do it? Another crew? Possibly his apprentice?
Friend of mine once made the live with it choice. It was a bad piece of T&G above the bed in the master bedroom.
Every night when he went to bed, there it was looking back at him.
He regretted his choice until he sold the house.
Joe H
I couldn't live with that, the tile work is fugly. You have already made a huge investment of time and money, and if you give up now and accept that poor quality of work, then what you have gone through as far as money, inconvenience, and living in each other's pockets will have been wasted. This is just what unscrupulous business owners (which I'm thinking 'Bob the master screw-up tile guy' may be) count on - people who are weary and ready to accept sub-standard work just to stop living out of boxes. Ask yourself that if this were last year and you weren't sick of sharing a bathroom with your kids, would you have accepted this work? No. So accept that you have a little more sacrifice to make for this to all be worthwhile and get the tile fixed. And I'd think about telling my builder that it looks like 'Bob' needs glasses and perhaps he knows of another tile-setter who can do better?
I'm just a homeowner. But my low-cost, small home has much better tile work in it than those pictures. And some of it we did ourselves.
Chouter,
IMHO - That work is downright TERRIBLE. I've seen better in a low-grade rent house. The only right answer is to have it all redone correctly. It doesn't sound like Bob the Master is the guy for the job given his work to date and his attitude.
I understand wanting to get out of the apartment, but don't let that desire stick you with a garbage tile job. I suspect that trying to get it redone after you move in would be worse than extra weeks in tight quarters.
Stick to your guns. Good luck.
Dave
you know what tell them to fix it right or you will go to arbittration. thye tried twice !!!
That's a bad tile job. No question. Irregular grout lines...looks like they may vary from 1/16" to 1/4" on the same installation. Poor cuts. No doubt the contrasting grout doesn't forgive the installer's sins, but still. IF everything you say is complete and true, I would say the installer blew it. If your expectations weren't clear or.....no forget that, that's a bad job. No excuses. I couldn't leave a job looking like and get any sleep. 33K in tile deserves much better than that.
What does your builder/GC say about the installation? Is he really cool with that? Fit and finish can be hard to argue in arbitration, but I wouldn't call that installation "industry standards". I think I'd cry if I left a trusted sub to a 33K tile job and it came out like that. I'd be kissing that 16% goodbye.
More info always helps.
The window corners are strictly amateur.
The grout lines were known before the start, the tile was factory cut so as to be set on close tolerances and Bob the Master Tile Guy decided to do what he wanted, not what you wanted.
our job supervisor advised us to go with the former so that in the event something went wrong, we'd be able to get it fixed
Bob the Master Tile guy was your Builders guy, he is responsible. Get it fixed.
Joe H
Yes, it is a bad job, and yes, it should be done over, but what you have described is a large tile job and must have taken more than a few days. Why wasn't the work stopped after just one room or just one area was completed?
At $33K cost, your tile guy will get buried, and your GC will take a big hit, doing a total rip and replace. It'll be another $33K plus demo costs.
Were there any other aspects of this job that went badly? Trim, cabinetry, painting, flooring, etc., all OK and as expected?
Yes, it is a very large tile job. To demo and reinstall would be incredibly disruptive, and as you mentioned, expensive all around. We didn't stop the work since much of the tile installation happened simultaneously. Immediately after, floors were covered for protection. Frankly, the entire tile situation put us way behind schedule, as the original tile we selected for the main floor never arrived. Could still be sitting in an Italian port for all I know. We had to make a new selection and everyone was moving fast. We just tried to stay out of their way and let them do their job.
In 13 months of construction, the tile installation is the one and only black mark. We did experience a snafu with some fiber optic lighting embedded in the glass block on the kitchen island, but that was a different vendor and installer. The president of the company (vendor) stepped right up and took responsibility for his installer. At his cost, he ordered new fiber, new glass block, etc.and as I type, he's at the house demo-ing the glass block preparing the island for a replacement install. It'll be finished by the end of this week. Of course there has been other things, but each time, our GC handled it, and the vendors always did the right thing. That has not, however, been the case with the tile guy. He seems rather put out that we asked him to replace some pitted tiles, and replace two rows of bullnose that was a different color, and size, than the field tiles. (!!) He did it, but his attitude was like, "whatever".
Ultimately, we don't want anyone to get financially hurt in this deal. We want to be realistic, and that's where we are now - trying to settle on that fine line of "can live with it" and "hate it".
Thank you for your comments.
"As professionals, do you find this installation acceptable?"
As others have stated, the Installer did not give you a well crafted job. However, in the time, quality, cost dynamic, which two did you pick? You did not get quality. Did you get price and time?
What it seems you are really - or should be - asking is to assess if you got what you paid for. You have been going through the construction process for over a year now and I am sure understand the complexities of assessment to which I refer. I am certain you have tired of it all and tried to present a simple/ short version of the story. However, in doing so, you have done yourself a disservice. As conciderate as you sound, and with all due respect to the previous posters, we have not been given enough information to guide you properly in such a complex and far reaching decision.
Most, so far, have been quick to state GET IT REDONE!! That's easy to state from a lap/ desk top. Yes, $33K is, by definition, a lot of money. Is it a lot for what you recieved? I don't know. There are still, after 29 posts, many unstated variables. How many sqft each of wall, floor and countertops is that? Does it include materials and/ or labor? What were the material sqft costs? How big were the shower pans/ areas. How long did it take? Did the installer have more than enough time or was there a time constraint? What were the site conditions - did the installer have to contend with a painter/ plumber/ electrician working in the same areas?
You state that some/ many of the tiles arrive from the factory with pock marks, and so you ordered more. Hmmm. Was the installer aware of this when bidding/ pricing? When I install ceramic tile, other than screening the broken ones out, I do not account for the time and effort required to check each tile for acceptability. That's why ceramic is so much cheaper to install than stone or hand thrown tiles. Who determines how many and location of each pock mark for tile acceptability? BTW, if pock marks and rough factory edges are part of the "character" of the tile, you and/ or the Arch should have taken this into acount when selecting the grout color. Also, if the pock marks are so prevelent, you must either accept them or get different tiles. Tile selection is always a balance of budget, taste and availabilty.
BTW, when asking for an assessment of work, where dimensions and scale are important, including a tape measure or ruler in each photo, is indespensible. A full/ wide shot, rather than all close-ups is also useful.
"How would you handle a situation such as this with your sub if your client expressed their disappointment?"
If you determine the bathrooms must be redone, one concession might be that the GC strikes an agreement with another Installer to redo each bathroom over the next 6 months. By amertising(sp?) the work and cost over 6 months the Installer and/ or the GC doesn't get hit as hard. Bottom line, someone(s) will have to pay. The money has got to come from somewhere - his/ her family, future client(s), vacation or college funds, etc.
You have the luxury of many bathrooms and worst case scenerio of redoing all of them will not force you to remain living in a cramped apt and storage place, nor will it prevent you from getting your C of O.
Please do not interpret my comments as any sort of slight. This is probably one of the most expensive and therefore stressful investments you have ever made. Especially towards the end of the job, our decisions during the process are more frequently questioned and/ or come back to roost. We - GC and Client - have spent all our contingency monies and can not be any less shrewd or diligent in budgeting the balance. Go easy. Think. Nothing is the end of the world. Think "Win: Win" or at the very least "Loose Less: Loose Less."
F.
I am with the others on that grout color. Yuk. In what showroom did you see that and think it looked great?
And speaking of in what showroom, was it in that same showroom that they showed you how cool a look 1/16" grout lines could be?
Go ahead and interview half a dozen master tile setters, and ask them all about how well they do jobs with 1/16" margins. You will probably find out it is just simply not done, rectified tiles or not.
I once built a coffee table with a top that had a checkerboard pattern of opposing-grain 2' rosewood squares. I found out on that little project how precise one had to be, both with dimension and squareness, to get the squares to align in a pattern. With pieces a few thou off in length or width, a quarter of a degree off in squareness, the array started to look awful.
So now, with that rectified tile, given that we have all the parts all dead nuts on, let's set them so that we have 0.0625" margins. Really!
If this tile job was to be the crowning piece of your new 5-1/2 bath digs, maybe you should have had your eye on it, hard, right from the start. Stop that work right in its tracks when you see it going bad.
Your work is cut out for you now, to get it fixed to your satisfaction, with all the cost of fixing borne by others, and not you.
The grouting looks like it was done by a 5-year-old. I also noted that there is some paint touch-up that is needed.
I can't tell for sure from the pictures (a bit too close-up) but it does at least look like the tile has been set flush and reasonably well lined up for the most part.
Apparently you hired this guy with out seeing other work he completed.
The workmanship is bad. Period.
Wait for Jeff Buck or Boris to get here.
Good luck,
Eric
I would never have cut those window corner tiles like that. What the hell was he thinking?
Looks like some sloppy cuts around the front of the tub.
The contrasting grout causes the joints to stand out, and the flaws are magnified.
Did your tilesetter know you were planning to put that dark grout in when he bid it?
To make all those grout lines perfect, which seems to be your expectation, takes a looooooooong time. Did he bid it that way, did you specify what you expected?
By the way, do you think all those tiles are perfectly square? And what is recified ?
Joe H
Man, that looks horrible. You can see some of the thinset that was not cleaned out of the grout joints. That's bad, and very hard to clean up. The grout joints are bad too, they can be cleaned up, but cleaning them will not make the whole thing much better. Those tiles around the window are very interesting???? And to top it off the broken tile that was still installed. The whole shower looks like it was done by a five year old. You didn't pay for this yet I hope?
Jason
One more vote for an unacceptable job.
Was there a reason the window corners were mitered? The size of the tile appears to be large enough to cut those corner pieces out of one tile - just an "L" - no miter, no wierd looking cuts.
The horizontal alignment to the adjacent wall is off. Way off. Shows poor layout skills.
What size tile at the tub? Or are we looking at 2 different tubs. One picture looks like 6x6 and another at the tub apron looks like 4x4.
If just one tub and the perspective is off then it looks like the first course was set at the tub and they went up from there, leaving a mini-cut near the floor and a less than 1/2 tile at the ceiling. How about the other corners? Are they symetrical? Inadequate layout, again.
Tiles appear to have been scored and snapped rather than cut with a wet saw. Edges appear ragged and that will have a huge effect on the appearance of the grout. No amount of cleanup can fix that.
Corners and tub/tile intersections appear to be grouted. Good practice would require a matching color/texture caulk to prevent cracking and leakage at movement prone areas. Colored grout at the ceiling/tile intersection magnifies the fact that the tile is much too short (layout problem). If you absolutely must have that size then a tighter fit and a tile-matching or ceiling -matching color caulk would have been better.
Overall job appears to be, as others have noted, a product of a 5 year old or apprentice on his first job in a hurry to get to beer-thirty, if he hadn't already got a head start.
I have no idea why the tile installer elected to make the cuts like this. I too thought the L shape would have worked better, but I'm just the HO, and he's Bob the Master Tile Guy.
There are five bathrooms in all. In the photos with the white tiles and darker grout, they are all 6" x 6" tiles, as are the green tiles with light grout. Anything that looks like a 4" x 4" are tiles that have been cut by the installer. The tub with the mitered cuts at the window are 12" x 12" tiles.
You've addressed one of the exact things that we just hate - those little bitty cuts at the ceiling. He did this in all four bathrooms where he installed the 6" x 6" tiles. Yes, he just started at the tub and went from there, ending with less than half a tile. When I spoke with him about these, he commented that perhaps our architects should have reconsidered having 8' 3" ceilings in these areas.
At this point, none of the grout has been sealed. Can it be cleaned up at all?
Thank you for your comments. Thank you, everyone.
You have every right to bitch about this job, it is totally unexceptable, by any standards.
My biggest concern would be, judging by the installation of tile, what does the the areas that are covered up by tile look like ie: The shower pan installation was this installed properly, if it leaks or wasn't installed correctly it might not show up until well after any warranty. Install of durock, curb, hard to tell at this point, but I wouldn't pay for any of this work and would back charge for demo, tile, and reinstall.
Hire a pro and hold GC and installer accountable. Good luck
Excellent points. Start fresh, with a new tile pro.
Move in.... and have a real tile guy do one bathroom one at a time while you are living there. It will be a pain, but a real tile guy will get it done quick one bath at a time, you've got 5 bathrooms so only use 4 at a time
Jason
Again, thank you all for your comments. Most of you have addressed the tile installation in the bathrooms as needing to be redone, but does anyone have thoughts about the main floor tiles? These are 18" x 18", and because they are rectified, all cuts had to be placed by a wall. This was done, though the continuous layout of 750 sq, ft left us with a few slivers by a wall or two. I can live with this.
What we are most upset with is that the installer ignored our instructions for 1/16" grout lines, and instead put in 1/8th". To my eye, there is a difference in the look overall, but is it enough to insist it be redone? I don't know if we can really make a case for that, and I know that nearly everyone would protest and expect us to get over it. So, since the installer took it upon himself to double the grout joints, we thought we might take it upon ourselves to half his pay, and expect everyone to just get over it.
Well, at least we're trying to keep our sense of humor. :)
me again
the fact that it was in writting covers you as far as i am concerned its not splitting hairs if it was specifyed !!
in an entrance way the grout size if not sealed depending on color will show the dirt
therefore a smaller grout line would be nicer
as to the tile size the design and layout should have determined the tile size to make the smaller pieces less noticable this was a design issue ( which should have been brought to your attention no matter how adamitt you were about the tile size
ALL THE TILE WORK HAS TO BE REDONE !!!!!
Two thoughts on the entry tile: the larger joints look in-scale with the tiles, so personally it doesn't bother me. If you have it in writing that the joints should be 1/16" then the only solution is to have the tiles removed and replaced, at the builder or sub's cost. Agreeing to pay half (I know that was partly a joke) is not the answer. I think legally you have to give the original contractor the opportunity to rectify the mistakes. But maybe since there is a gc in the loop, you can tell the gc to get it fixed, now and at no cost, and let him sweat the details.
Regardless if the tiles are sealed or not, the grout can be removed and replaced. And at the same time they can replace the funky cuts and chipped tiles. Those two items are fairly easy to do. Replacing the narrow tiles at the top of the showers would require that the entire wall be redone.
Stand your ground and get what you paid for.
So you're in Seattle? Maybe we should send Master Luka for a visit.
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
The craftsman formerly known as elCid
Ugh.
Certainly not the best tile job I have seen but not the worst either.
I hate the contrasting grout.
Most of the setting is not bad; some of the tiles a tad cockeyed but well within a workmanlike manner. I must say that it takes a real pro to install tile with a 16th inch joint. Most tiles will be outa whack by at least a 32nd, and it only takes one to throw off an installation, so an eighth is more the norm. I would have to measure a couple dozen tiles from a few boxes to determine the proper grout line, but if there are variations of a 32nd, I won't install it with a 16th grout line, unless I get a time and materials contract. Way too many fussy cuts. Eigth of an inch is fairly brainless. So it is not a great job of tile setting, but OK. I'd give the installer a "C-". I've seen much worse.
I especially hated the angle cuts around the fireplace. One side is not bad, but the other angle doesn't reach the corner, and the tile is flatten out with a fat grout line. Ugh. That really blows.
The grout is another story. The grout color contributes to the problem. The edges of the tile are inconsistent in their slope down to the bed--some almost look like bullnose tiles. If that angle is not consistent the grout width will not be consistent either. And if you have white tile and white grout, nobody notices. If you have white tile and black grout, everyone notices. Grout is supposed to be the tileman's friend, strengthening the tile job, making little slipups disappear, and tying in visual aspects into one visual mass. Contrasting grout does just the opposite.
So, the actual grouting was not great and the installer did not do a great job of cleaning up and tooling the joints. I'd give the installer a "C-" for grout. His job was very much hampered by the grout color selection, which I assume was you. I would have talked you out of this abortion of a color, or walked from the job.
Hope this helps. How much per square foot did the tile cost and how much per square foot did the installation cost? Please advise.
Regards,
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
Edited 3/8/2004 3:23:15 PM ET by Boris Yeltsin
<Rectified tiles are those that have been precision cut after manufacture to ensure that each tile is exactly the same size as the next. This is so the grout lines can be minimal - 1/16th" - the look was to be that our poured concrete. Our grout lines are 1/8th".> from the 6th post
I would take it these 'rectified' tiles would have been at a considerable added expense with the sole idea of the percision look desired.
Would 1/16" grout still be too narrow to deal with in this situation?
I can't tell. Every tile is not exact. I don't care what the factory says. Mexican Salitos can be a full eighth of an inch off. No kidding. Even the finest porceline tile will be off by a 64th, which is the thickness of a playing card.
So with out putting a micrometer to the customer's tiles, I can't say. If they are a 64th, then fine and dandy, a 16th grout line works fine. If it is a 32nd, no a 16th grout line won't work.
I wouldn't have this job in my portfolio, it is not very good. But I have seen so much worse than this.
Regards,
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
I think this is an exceptionally poor job and I would tend to redo it now. I suggest that you reconsider your own mistakes at this time too. The very narrow grout lines NEVER look good with contrasting grout colors. Consider that a grout line that varies by 1/32" will be 50% wider (or narrower) if it is nominally 1/16". It is nearly impossible to work tight enough to make such an installation look attractive because the many variables overwhelm the best skills (not that you had much skill involved here). Contrasting grouts should be chosen only where the grout lines will be at least 1/8" and preferably 3/16" or larger. Mitered corners where the borders vary in thickness should be mitered to the corners ... not to an arbitrary 45 degrees. Otherwise do them with a plinth block style. Overall your layouts here were poor and suggest lack of experience.
I'm with Boris here ...
looks bad ... but I've seen plenty worse.
the layout leave a good bit to be desired ...
I'd be thinking twice too if any architect used the term "rectified" around me too ...
then again ... maybe the last time I took a customer to court for monies owed they showed up with 8x10's blown up that made the "reference" quarter look like the size of a VW Bug ... so those blown up pics scare me ....
I know of one good ... fairly quick and painless fix ....
Pick a better grout color.
Contrasting grout is a terrible thing ....
never a good idea ... no how.... no where.
Grouts should compliment ... that's the whole idea ....
And a nice complimenting ... light .... grout color would make 90% of those magnified flaws go away... plus the fact the guy'd be paying real close attention to detail this second time around .....
I just talked a customer out of 1/16th grout lines ...
Said "because the tiles aren't square enough" ...
I could tell when them still wrapped in the box.
Opened 3 boxes ... took 3 random tiles from each box .... laid them out ...
measured ....
guess what?
Rectified just means ya paid more for less uneven tiles.
The world isn't perfect ... remodeling is even less so ...
and the tiles ... will be ... crooked.
we went 1/8th.
His were shipped in from somewhere in Italy too.
For what it's worth .... bet if ya get into court .... and the tile conspirators can show the tiles arean't within 1/16th of an inch perfectly square themselves ... and they show pics taken from a normal wide angle view ... that the tile guy/GC win over the home owner/Architect. Not the best job in the world ... but not the worst.
Jeff
Buck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
Points well taken, Mr. Yeltsin and Frankie, (and now Mr. Buck.) Thank you for your well-thought out posts. As it happens, I was in the middle of composing a post when both of yours arrived, one in which I am addressing many of the points you've made. My purpose was to let those who responded to my original post know that the photos we made available are not representative of the tile installation as a whole. They are the worst of all that went wrong, and in hindsight, full room photos, in addition to those we uploaded, certainly would have offered a broader perspective. Our apologies for not providing that to you as we sought your opinions.
I would like to clarify a misunderstanding. I am the one who chose the dark grout to go with the white tiles, but I did not specify the size of the grout joints in these areas. I left that to the installer. The ONLY installation for which I specified a grout joint at 1/16th" was the main floor, where the darker 18" x 18" "rectified" tiles were installed with matching grout. Thin joints, matching grout, cementious appearance. That was our goal. Does it thoroughly piss me off that I didn't get what I specified? Yeah, it does. Today. Am I going to make a big deal about it? No. Reality will set in. Once the rugs go down and the furniture is in place, and the kids get their footprints all over the floor, those grout joints will be a distant memory. More importantly, I have put my heart and soul into this house for over two and a half years, and I am so very, very proud of it. I don't plan to lament a single thing when we finally move in. (March 20th!!!) No regrets, that's my rule. In the grand scheme of things, a 1/8th" grout line is nothing.
I said in one of my earlier posts that the caliber of the tile installation was fairly consistent throughout. I would like to clarify my statement by saying that problems such as the ones in the photos can be found in all the showers, odd cuts here and there, but by no means did I mean to imply that the entire installation in one area was problematic in its entirety. That's not the case. I suppose what we really wanted to know, but failed to ask directly, is can the flaws be corrected or is it too late. I think we know the answer to that question now, and thank you again to everyone who posted their comments.
Frankie, I can't answer many of your questions with regard to time, specific breakdown of costs, and job site conditions. But I can assure you that we have no intentions of insisting that any installation be fully demo'd and redone. We recognize our role in the outcome of the overall look, since yes, we chose the contrasting grout colors. I can imagine such color combos give you installers nightmares, but pain-in-the-butt install aside, I love the look. I understand the point Mr. Buck has made with regard to grout as a complimentary element, not a contrasting one, but I disagree, and I understand that I have to live with the inherent flaws if that's the colors I choose. Okay, I can do that, but I'd at least like to minimize them as much as possible. The grout we chose is simply a continuation of the grout used on the floor. Nice clean contrast, simple, contemporary. (Well, maybe not so clean, but you get the idea.)
So, my husband and I decided that we can live with a lot of imperfections (each other for starters :) We're asking our GC to have the installer clean up some grout lines, fill in and even them out a bit, and to replace the real obvious funky cuts where possible. After that, we're getting on with more important things. Our lives, our children, that beautiful Bald Eagle perched in the trees outside our new house (watching and waiting for Osprey to arrive and catch his dinner. :)
Thank you all, your comments were very, very helpful,
Chouter
PS - Okay, I can accept that this isn't a perfect world, and therefore the perfectly square tile doesn't exist. But, just FYI - the following blurb is directly off the United Tile Web site. And heck yeah, I want to believe it!
The hottest new concept in tile from Italy is the "cement look". You can see it today at United Tile in the STONEHENGE series from Lea. All tiles rectified (precision ground after production) to ensure absolute squareness necessary for tight grout joints.
Chouter--
Where are you located? Sounds like Minnesota. I once saw an Osprey fight a bald eagle over nesting and feeding areas. Surprisingly, the eagle lost.
We have a new pidgeon out front of our house. Soon to be a dead pidgeon.
I echo what Jeff Buck said, but he and I are pretty much in agreement in most things.Regards,
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
We're located in the beautiful Pacific Northwest. My father was in the oil business, so I've lived most of my life on the "other" side of the mountain - the desert - and Libya!. I love it here for the beauty and the wildlife. We have several eagles that spend their days perched in the trees, but my most favorite time is spring, because when Osprey returns, it's high drama on the lake. Awesome! :)
wow
you people are to nice LOL but good sports think about this still hold a couple bucks on it until you take your first shower You might see more . Dont feel bad about showing the bad spots thats what i would do if it was a tile guy that worked for me
anyway good luck in your new home
Tell me about your time in Libya. My father worked for Esso and was stationed in Benghazi and Brega for a while, and I lived there for for a couple of years.
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
The craftsman formerly known as elCid
Hi Ed,
We moved to Tripoli in 1969, just weeks after the Sept. 1st revolution when Ghaddafi overthrew King Idris. My dad was a geophysicist for Oasis Oil Company, which was a consortium of Shell, Hess, Conoco & Marathon Oil companies. We were there until they kicked us out in 1980. :) Well, they didn't really kick us out. We were evacuated by our own government when the hostages were taken in Iran. When Ghaddafi took over, the US Air Force base, Wheelus, was abandoned. So all us kids got to go away to boarding schools, compliments of numerous oil companies. After high school and before college, I went to work for a couple of different drilling companies.
I went to Esso country a couple of times, but can't remember why. Probably to visit some guy. It was great to be young and free and about the only female around. :)
How about you? Were you old enough to remember what it was like in Libya? Did you get to spend Christmas in the desert and go rolling down the dunes? I loved that.
We moved to Benghazi in about 1963 and then to Brega about 2-3 years later when the living compound was built. School ended at the 9th grade so we all had to go away for the rest of high school, returning at Christmas and summer. I was away at school during the Seven Days War with Israel in 67, but my family was evac's to Italy by the Air Force. In late 68 my father was transferred to Bombay and so we called that home for a while, then to the Phillipines. Other than going through the airport, I think I only went to Tripoli about twice...Benghazi was much closer, actually withing driving distance. Made a copuple of trips into the interior to the pumping stations with my father...talk about the middle of nowhere!
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
The craftsman formerly known as elCid
So, my husband and I decided that we can live with a lot of imperfections (each other for starters :) We're asking our GC to have the installer clean up some grout lines, fill in and even them out a bit, and to replace the real obvious funky cuts where possible. After that, we're getting on with more important things. Our lives, our children, that beautiful Bald Eagle perched in the trees outside our new house (watching and waiting for Osprey to arrive and catch his dinner. :)
........way to go. I remarried two years ago at mddle age. One of our best friends sent us a card that I remind myself of everyday. In it they wrote "Don't sweat the small stuff"
Good luck with the new house. The time will come to re-do those baths. That guy lost ALOT of work by not doing a good job on your house. Just think about how you would have talked him up if he had done a great job.......not gonna happen now though!
Eric
We're asking our GC to have the installer clean up some grout lines, fill in and even them out a bit, and to replace the real obvious funky cuts where possible. Have them remove all the grout and replace it. It looks like the grout was not properly struck off and cleaned...lokks like he got in a hurry. The grout can be replaced without disturbing the tiles, which will give a much improved appearance at a cost much lower than replacing the whole job.
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
The craftsman formerly known as elCid
regrout.
major pain in the a$$ for the guy doing it ...
but not really that big a job in the grand scheme of things.
Or ... tell them U want the grout fixed ... they might be able to go in and straighten things up a bit.
Like ya said .... living with the odd layout and cuts is probably the best way to go.
Just remind them before they regrout .. they're lucky to have such a forgiving customer(living with the layout and all) ... so .. hint hint ... get the grout freaking damn near perfect this time around!
Pick what ever color ya like ... as my good buddy Joe would say ... Hey, it's your party ... you're paying for this gig.
BUT .... if the layout and odd cuts will drive ya a little more nuts every day ...
a complimenting grout color will make them all but disappear ...
so ... time to decide between what's the best compromise ...
a more blended look ... hiding the layout ...
or the contracting grout color you had your heart set on ...
if the layout and cuts aren't something you have to look at every day ....
pretty easy to go for the touched up grout and look at the big picture.
Plus ... you're right ... after ya move in and start filling up the place ...
all the little imperfections seem to blend together.
Somewhere around 30K in tile ...
next time drop me a line ... I'll think about making a weekend of it!
Maybe thank the first installer by sticking a dead salmon in his lunch box and watch the eagle and nature take it's course .....
Jeff
Buck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
Now why didn't I think of the ol' fish in the lunchbox trick? He'd probably have more gulls around him than Eagles, but they're pretty nasty in their own right.
You know, after reading all Frankie's questions (and not being able to answer them) I did some quick figuring of what exactly we got for our money. I figured there's around 1635 sf of tile. About 1000 on the floor (w/ some heat until about 100 of that) 560 sf in the showers (with about 40 sf of mudpan) 24 sf of countertop, and 50 sf of wall and backsplash. Most of that was only two different tiles, the 18" x 18" and the 6"x 6" with the contrasting grout. Those two made up about 1560 of the total. The rest was more deco, like the river rock in the master shower floor, glass tile backsplash in the kitchen. The price included all the wonderboard, waterproofing, mudpans, heat, tile, and all that was needed for installation. (Could you really do all that in one weekend? Gimme your number... :)
I couldn't tell you if that's a good price or not, but it sure turned out to be not such a great deal. We also had nearly 2000 sf of slate tiles installed, the bulk of it on the exterior of the house (I can hear all you installers, EXTERIOR SLATE?? IN SEATTLE??!! :) and I thank my lucky stars that we gave that job to a different installer. It's gorgeous.
But, it's getting better, or so they tell me. Bob-T-M-T-Guy was on site today, working on the grout. Apparently he did replace it, or at least some of it, as most of you have suggested, but I haven't been over there so I don't know how he did. I'm headed over there after I get dinner for the kids, and I'll let you know. I think I'll hold off on buying that fish until I inspect it, but I'll take my wallet just in case a quick trip to the market is in order.
Chouter
WOW!
$33K for all that?!! Materials, sheathing, pans, AND installation? I don't understand the "(w/ some heat until about 100 of that) " comment. By "heat" do you mean a radiant floor?
The way I figure it, you got most if not all of the material for free! What were the sqft costs for the various tiles? I can't beleive the guy is still showing up for work. Regardless of others comments, he must be conscientious.
He could not have made much money.
Bottom line - you get what you pay for. This info should have been included in the initial post rather than the 44th post. I am certain you would have gotten different responses. The least you owe this guy is the final payment IN FULL and a debt of gratitude. Even when the GC presented this guy as the Master TG, he should have also stated that you were getting a great price - no, an incredibley low price.
BTW, just a reminder - the 16% goes to the GC for his costs. The Sub sees none of this. That's why I am addressing only the 33K figure.
I am still shaking my head.
WOW!
F.
"I can't beleive the guy is still showing up for work." Me neither.
I wish it weren't necessary for him to still be showing up for work. I wish it had all been done right the first time. Maybe then his profit would have been higher.
wow sweetie you dont give up lol hubby is lucky guy LOL
"I wish it weren't necessary for him to still be showing up for work. I wish it had all been done right the first time. Maybe then his profit would have been higher."
Right or not, you DID get what you paid for "the first time." I am sure he too wishes he did not have to come back. The only reason for coming back is that he lacks the backbone to say "ENOUGH!", is a saint and/ or you have HIS money.
I guess I was not clear earlier. The guy did NOT make a profit. You are making sure of that by not paying for the quality of work you truly wanted.
Remember the Time, Quality, Price Dynamic? You seem to have chosen Price and Time (you have never mentioned that he was late or could not meet your schedule.) Maybe you assumed, from the "Master Tile Guy" monicker, that you would get Quality regardless of the Price. Well, we can all learn from our experiences.
I am surprised you did not pick up on this Dynamic sooner in the construction process. Better late than never, I guess. You do understand it now..? If you insist on arguing the point, you don't understand it,are unwilling to understand it AND have NOT acepted responsibility for your role in the process.
I do not intend to sound harsh but this post has gone on long enough and you are still defending your original position. It's insulting.
F.
Edit: Sorry crosscutter55. This post was intended for Chouter.
F
Edited 3/10/2004 9:52 pm ET by Frankie
Frankie- I think you got the wrong thread.
Your post belongs over in 'tear'm a new one'.
Good lord man, lay off the coffee.
The follies which a man regrets the most in his life are those which he didn't commit when he had the opportunity. [Helen Rowland]
Har! Har! Har! Har! Har! Har! Har! Har! Har! Har! Har! Har!
It just gets me when people - Archs, GCs and Clients don't step up to the plate and accept responsibility for the role they each play in the construction process. To then go on a website for advice from people who are commited to doing proper work, on how to support an arguement, possiblty to even present to the poor soul they want to confront, but don't submit all the facts....well, that's beyond the pale (pail?).
One last thing. I was disappointed that many of our fellow posters - collegues? - did not even concider the Installer's position. There was too much "Linch the SOB. Ask questions later, if we're not too busy" mentality.
Less judgement, more empathy. There was zero discussion before a verdict was rendered. Isn't anyone else uncomfortable with that?
I'm done with this one. Peace Out,
F.
MAYBE YOU DIDNT SEE THE PICTURES !! OF THER NEW HOME !!!
"I guess I was not clear earlier. The guy did NOT make a profit. You are making sure of that by not paying for the quality of work you truly wanted."
BTW with work that poor does he deserve to make a profit?
From what I have seen the guy is a hack. He had the opportunity to quote the job, Did he mention on the quote he was a hack? I am betting he told them he would do a quality job. In a bit of hindsight, they should have seen his work but he was pushed on them by the GC. I would question the GC and make it his problem, that 16% overall on a project this big has some wiggle room for a job this poor.
Also, the contrasting grout is really a problem, I must agree with other posters that grout should compliment the tile, not fight with it, but you should have a decent job. Also 1/16 lines are almost unattainable given the bevel, turns them in to 1/32.
But then again if the guy was credible he should have told you that. Again pointing to the fact that the guy was a hack.
$33K for 1635 sf of tile sounds like about $20/sq ft to me! Bob-the-whatever didn't loose any money on that. For my home (in the Seattle area), tile bids were all under $15/sq ft. I decided to do it all myself anyhow last year; 4 rooms. No ugly grout lines and it was the first time I had ever laid tile. Bob-the-whatever doesn't know how to use a grout sponge! I had one room with contrasting tile/grout color and it looks fine. I didn't leave globs of grout on the lines. No professional would have either. As far as anyone suggesting you should be responsible, I say no. A professional would have advised you of 1/8 vs 1/16 issues and things like that. A professional would have taken 10 minutes to discuss the spacing and alternate methods to avoid the thin tiles at the ceiling. A professional would know how to use a grout sponge! Your builder should also take the responsibility for finding this yahoo.
Darrell
I did not intend to come back to this post but.....
Darrel, you don't know what you're writing about and/ or you didn't read the previous posts well - especially the parts to which you are referring. The quote was:
"1635 sf of tile. About 1000 on the floor (w/ some heat until about 100 of that) 560 sf in the showers (with about 40 sf of mudpan) 24 sf of countertop, and 50 sf of wall and backsplash. Most of that was only two different tiles, the 18" x 18" and the 6"x 6" with the contrasting grout. Those two made up about 1560 of the total. The rest was more deco, like the river rock in the master shower floor, glass tile backsplash in the kitchen. The price included all the wonderboard, waterproofing, mudpans, heat, tile, and all that was needed for installation."
Please take special note of the last sentence: "The price included all the wonderboard, waterproofing, mudpans, heat, tile, and all that was needed for installation." If the installer got paid $20/ sqft then:
a) Installation materials were free.
b) The wonder board panels and installation was free.
c) The waterproofing/ shower pan liner was free.
d) The mudbed fabrication/ installation was free.
e) "Heat" (never defined) was free.
f) Tiles were free - tile sqft cost never disclosed, hmmm. Note: Glass tile = Cha-ching! River rock = Not cheap. Neither are easy to install. Only done well by Masters. No pictures means Chouter was satisfied.
g) Tools were free. He must have already owned them anyway. After 5 baths and 1650 sqft there shouldn't have been ANY wear 'n tear on them.
h) Liability insurance was free - but you knew that.
i) Vehicle was free. We get free vehicles and trade-ins while we are waiting in the "PRO" line at the Big Box.
j) Oh yeah, I almost forgot. The countertops were a bonus too! I am sure he threw that in just for kicks, using all his extra cash.
Concider the following: If the tile costs $5/ sqft, the TILE installation goes down to your $15/sqft while ALL the other freebies remain. I assure you the tile was more than $5/ sqft.
Three other points I found interesting:
1. We have never seen even one whole bathroom - for context.
2. What's the rest of the house look like - 2K or 4K sqft? More?
3. The bathrooms were not all done at the same time. Why didn't Chouter question after the first was completed? Or the second? Or the third?...
I'll bet I can take close-up photos of five rooms of any poster's and come up with equivalent images - assuming the same budgetary constraints. Chouter got a great deal and now wants more. It's unfortunate.
NOW, I'm done.
F.
With the way you are acting I'd swear you installed the tile. That installation sux and no matter how hard you try, you can't convince me that it is Chouter's fault. Are you out of your mind? If the guy blew the bid, then it's his problem. Her GC gave her a choice of two tile guys.....she choose the one she thought was "the best". You act like she hammered him down on the bottom line and then decided to complain about quality. Your arguments are irrational and irrelevant. Knock that chip off your shoulder and lighten up.
Sorry to pop your bubble but 1/16" grout lines with 18" tiles are unattainable. No 18" tiles no matter how "Rectfied" are perfectly square. You can get away with tight grout lines with smaller tiles but 18" .... NO WAY YOU *******. If they have an eased or beveled edge which most tiles do, then the grout line will be at least a 1/16th if set tight. Your insistence that a 1/16" is doable is an unreasonable expectation. Another mistake was going for a grid with such tight tolerances. You should have staggered the tiles and then the there would not have to be four corners anywhere that have to be PERFECTLY lined up. IF the sight lines are broken up then imperfections are not as noticable.
Your tile guy didn't bother to lay out properly and left you with a sliver and that is wrong. Some of the work did look substandard. Part of the fault is your unreasonable expectations. You have to accept some of the liability for the result. I saw lots of different tiles and even some stone in the mix. Grout lines are NEVER perfect with stone unless it is ground and polished and then there are still pits ,and squareness problems.Mike Callahan, Lake Tahoe, Ca.
I'm a little curious about the 18" tiles that were supposed to give you a scored concrete look. If you wanted a scored concrete look, why didn't you go with scored concrete? Isn't tile more expensive when you factor in cost of materials and labor?
I'm glad that he's gone back to fix some of the grouting errors. If it were me, I'd want that weird layout around the windows replaced. That just looks amateur to me, and I'm an amateur. Slivers on the floor or ceiling I can live with (while grumbling), but windows are eye level.
We would have loved to have concrete floors, but were advised that the cracking could be extensive given the the pier and beam foundation under the main floor. On the ground floor, we do have concrete floors. I love them, too.
The grout line in the showers are much improved. And after studying those funky cuts in the window area of the master shower, I realized they are not cuts at all. They are scores, and they can be found in every area where water might pool, and they are there to facilitate runoff. I think they could have been more consistent, but I'm going to live with them nonetheless.
Chouter
"NO WAY YOU *******." Perhaps if our installer had said this instead of "No problem", my expecatations would have been lower. Perhaps if I had ignored the vendor and manufacturer's assurances, then my expectations would have been more in line with reality.
"You have to accept some of the liability for the result." Yes, you are right. And I said so in one of my earlier posts.
"I saw lots of different tiles and even some stone in the mix". If you are refering to the photos, then you are mistaken. If you're refering to the river rocks I mentioned previously, the only stone in the entire tiling job, I did not specify any type of grout joint. That most certainly would have been unreasonable.
Thank you for your comments.
Oh my Mrs.Chouter,
I see you sitting there at your computer and I have to tell you that it is better on the eyes to not lean so close in on the monitor.