Over the weekend, I was removing caulk from the tub surround of our seldom used guest tub/shower so I could re-caulk. Noticed a couple of tiles down by the tub were loose. So I popped out those tiles. Pretty easily.
There was moisture visible between the tile and the mastic. Yes, mastic. The mastic was spread over the plaster walls. (This is a 60 year old house built right after WWII. All the walls have some sort of plasterboard coated with a brown coat of plaster and then a finish coat of plaster.) The finish coat of plaster behind the removed tile was slightly damp, and I was able to pick away at some of it with my fingers to expose the brown coat. But didn’t get through the brown coat of plaster or down to the plasterboard.
Right now, there are maybe 8 loose tiles I pulled off. All of them are right by the tub joint, or one row above. When I push against the bare plaster, the wall will deflect by maybe 1/16 or 1/8 inch. There’s basically no support by the tub because the caulk joint is now gone, and I think the tiles must be mid-span between studs. (I have no idea if the studs are rotten.)
Is that much movement OK? Can I just use thinset to put new tiles back in, after the damp plaster has dried a bit? Or do I have to tear out the whole wall and re-tile everything.
Thanks!
Replies
>>do I have to tear out the whole wall and re-tile everything.
Sooner or later, yes. The recommended detail now is tile over thinset over CBU over moisture barrier over studs. You should be happy it lasted 60 years. The deflection you describe sounds normal assuming there is no wood blocking installed horizontally between the studs at the top of the tub (there should be when you redo it).
You've probably got plaster over rocklath. It sounds like it's held up pretty well. The brown coat plaster is cement-based and approximates cement board, so this durability isn't too surprising. If the rest of the tile is in good condition and you aren't anxious to redo it all right now, I'd just clean things up, reinstall the tile (probably would be best to use mastic again, to maintain the same thickness), and regrout/recaulk. Should give you another ten years service.
Yes under ideal circumstances one should rip it all out and start all over again, but in a 60-year-old house there are probably more important issues to deal with (and spend money on).
I love it when people tell me what I want to hear. I really don't want to open this can of worms if I don't have to. I'd like to just repair it if I can.I picked away at the damp plaster and dug out a bit of the finish coat, so the surface and thickness of the backing is all messed up now. Should I use plaster to level the surface again, and then use mastic? Or is there a better material?
Use "hot" (setting type) mud, or some other moisture-resistant patching compound/spackle. Coat the repaired area with a thin layer of the mastic, to give it a bit more moisture resistance.(Yeah, the the "real" tile guys are having conniptions, but we're not trying to win any awards here, just make it look decent and last a little longer.)
People never lie so much as before an election, during a war, or after a hunt. --Otto von Bismarck
Thanks for your response. I'll try it out. Fortunately, it's over an unfinished basement, so we know about any serious leaks pretty quickly, and they do minimal damage.
I did some more poking around (from the basement) and could see through the hole surrounding the soil stack and supply pipes that the plasterboard behind the tile is really starting to disintegrate. I think I need to re-do the entire tile surround.Now I'm looking for a good book that will tell me how to do this right. I know the basics of how to do it, and could probably do it without reading a book, but a book would give me more confidence. Anybody know of a great tile book out there?
An excellent book is Setting Tile by ... shoot, what's his name ... Taunton publishes it, available through Taunton or Amazon and sometimes carried by the big boxes. It covers everything from floors to counters to showers, with good information and clear instructions.
Michael Byrne. On sale now through Taunton for $14.
View Image
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View Image• Table of Contents• Introduction• Companion Video #1• Companion Video #2• Companion Video #3
Setting Tile
Michael Byrne
Revised and updated floor, wall, and countertop techniques
Now, thanks to new materials and techniques, it's easier for anyone to get professional-looking results every time! Master tilesetter Michael Byrne's fully updated book explains everything anyone needs to know about tiling in an easy-to-read format. With the help of real-life installations, he demonstrates floor, wall, countertop and bathroom techniques.
Byrne covers the many types of tile -- including natural stone. He explains tools, setting materials, preparation and layout. You'll also find detailed information on troubleshooting problems and making repairs. The traditional mortar-bed method is still covered, but easy-to-use backerboard and waterproofing membranes now get special attention. Byrne delivers all the basics tilesetters rely on...plus all the fresh ideas and innovative methods they need to do the job right.
See the companion videos, Tiling Floors, Tiling Walls, and Tiling Countertops. Page numbers from the book are keyed to the screen so you can refer back for more information.
"...delivers a tremendous amount of information that's easy to understand...No stone is left unturned from surface preparation to cleanup."
-- Custom Builder
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Edited 11/30/2006 6:28 pm ET by FastEddie
The Setting Tile book is by "Byrne", not "shoot". Published by Taunton. Good one.
See, now you should feel ashamed of yourself!
To be fair, his advice was based on what I posted. And it was what I wanted to hear. It hadn't occurred to me to look up through gaps in the sub floor. If I had done that sooner, I'd know better the true condition of the wall.Anyway, do you have any good book recommendations?
You can also try the book "Tile Your World" by John Bridge. Excellent forum there as well, that you might want to check out.
http://www.tileyourworld.com/catalog/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=12&products_id=38
I highly recommend the John Bridge tile forum. There are a number of things you can download from the site that are excellent. The guys on the forum are really helpful if you have a question- almost as good as breaktime!
I was teasing Dan.... I wouldn't miss an opportunity.
If you have a typical tub in a 30x60 alcove, and the tub has a lip around the edges that face the wall, the job is easy. First, add horizontal blocking (if it's not already there) between the studs at the top and bottom of your tile installation. Then, furr out the studs so that the face of the furring is flush with the inside face of the lip. Then, install either a poly or felt moisture barrier over the studs. Then install 1/2" CBU, tile using thinset, grout, and sealer.
Some folks don't do the furring out part. I do because it makes it easier to install the felt or poly nice and flat and without goofy folds in the corners.
"Setting Tile" by Michael Byrne is the book to get. Johnbridge.com is the internet forum to read for tile techniques. There is enough already there so that you will not need to post anything new.
Cool! Thanks for the book recommendation. I checked out the tile forum over at Johnbridge and asked the same question there. You guys here were more forthcoming with information. But after a while I got some really good information there too. Most valuable was info on how much it would cost to pay someone to do it in my area. Too much! I'm too poor.Thanks to everyone for the book advice.
>>> You guys here were more forthcoming with information
but now that we told you, we're gonna have to kill you.
try "journal of light construction" online, great tile area and itz freee after u finish, use a good sealer on the grout joints to prevent water leakthru
Hard to believe the bath you describe (60 yr old house) hasn't been reno'd
Typically that would have been a traditional wet mud tile wall....never seen mastic from that era...
It was probably originally just plaster, and the tile was added later, probably when a claw-foot tub was replaced with a "modern" one.
People never lie so much as before an election, during a war, or after a hunt. --Otto von Bismarck
that sound you hear is me, giving myself a dope-slap ;-)
Well, actually I'm dope-slapping myself a bit too. Likely the original tub is still there, but the tile was put up when the shower head was installed 5-10 years after the house was built.
People never lie so much as before an election, during a war, or after a hunt. --Otto von Bismarck
It's an original tub. I'm pretty sure of this because I can see the bottom of the tub from the basement through gaps in the subfloor boards. The tub was placed directly on the subfloor, not the finished floor.And you are probably right about the tile and mastic being newer. As I've been doing a little demo, I can see the plaster surface underneath, and it looks like it was simply painted. Later, they went over the paint with mastic and tiles.
Well.....a bit odd to have a fitted tub without a tile surround as an original as-built, but I suppose it's possible
Like I said, the tub may not have had a shower originally. Or it may have been equipped with an all-around curtain as used on claw-foot tubs.And of course tile would have cost extra.
People never lie so much as before an election, during a war, or after a hunt. --Otto von Bismarck