Got a call to bid a repair job from a repeat customer. Tile falling off in rental unit shower. Not the type of job I normally do, but I think I could do it…with a little help from the BT gang!
Wall looks rotted out behind the missing tile, tenant says the tiles have been loose for a long time, and so water has been getting back there for awhile (it’s not the plumbing wall). So I’m looking at breaking out a section about 2′ x 4′, repairing the wall, and putting in new tile.
Odd thing is, its been repaired before, I know because the tile is different on this wall, a section about 4′ x 5′. Looks like it was glued on with mastic over drywall, but I can’t say for sure. Anyway, what’s the right way to do the repairs? Thinset over wonder board or durock?
How much time should I estimate for bidding purposes? I’m thinking about 8hrs. one day, maybe an hour to come back and grout the next day?
Edited 9/11/2005 1:42 am ET by Huck
Replies
8 hours!!!!!!!????....not a biddable job....demo 1st & see how much rot, go from there...
ahhhh, good suggestion! It could get pretty hairy I guess, judging by the gooey black mess I saw when I looked in there! I'll call the owner tomorrow and tell her I gotta do some "exploratory surgery"! Thanks!
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edited to add:
So is thinset mortar over backerboard the right solution once I get the rot cleaned up?
Edited 9/11/2005 11:16 pm ET by Huck
if you're asking that, you probably shouldn't be doing this....tho we all started somewhere, I guess....
if you're asking that, you probably shouldn't be doing thisYeah, you're probably right. But its a return customer, not a big job, and I've done tile before, but in non-moisture areas. Liquid Nails mastic was OK in that application (15 yrs later still holding up fine), but unlike the pro's who did this job before me (and didn't need to ask), I wouldn't use it in a shower =)
Edited 9/12/2005 12:40 am ET by Huck
Yep, thinset is the correct mastic for a wet area. You could use cement board or hardiebacker, don't use reegular sheetrock or greenboard. And you have toi use a membranbe behind the board. 30# tarpaper, 4 mil visqueen, etc.
If, big if, the studs are not rotted and the only problem is loose tile and bad sheetrock, 8 hrs might work. it mightb be easier to remove all the tile on that wall and open the whole thing. It could be tough to fit tile into a small area ... tougher than having a clean slate to work on.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Geez--Good Luck--you have more guts than I......Had a rust spot on the van one time--size of a half-dollar---See where this is going?Mike" I reject your reality and substitute my own"
Adam Savage---Mythbusters
uh... can of worms? Yeah, I see.But then the eternal optimist in me starts thinkin' - I couldn't do much worse than the guys before me who, it looks like, glued some tile over drywall and called it good. Renter will be happy just to get it back together (she's currently got a plastic trash bag duct-taped over the hole), and the owner (who lives out of town) likely won't even look at it. She'll just ask the tenant if it looks OK when I'm done, like the last job I did in this apartment.If I thinset the tile over backerboard, it'll probably be in better shape than the rest of the shower. We live in a world full of compromises. Fine Homebuilding it ain't, but if I can make a renter happy, buy groceries that week, and live with myself after the fact, that's still a "good job" fer me.
I was also thinking that you must be feeling bold to take on a job that you needed to ask those kinds of questions, but then, for a regular customer (where there is trust both ways), it's exactly what I would (and have) done.
8 hours seems a little optimistic since you'll probably wind up doing the entire wall. You've got to do the demolition, dispose of the debris, determine new material need, go buy it, install it and now you're ready for tile work. And don't forget final caulking and any painting.
As far as tile backer, consider Denshield by Georgia-Pacific. It's light, easy to cut and doesn't require a vapor barrier. You could also use tile mastic (rather than thinset) if the area in question is not subjected to soaking. I know many don't like this product and feel that it's not adequate for wet areas, but I've had good luck with it and after all, you're not building a 30-year shower.
-Don
Denshield is nothing more than sheetrock with a very water-resistant covering. It works pretty well unless you cut it, then the fresh edges need to be properly sealed.
And since we know he's doing a shower wall, mastic would be the wrong product to recommend.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Fine Homebuilding it ain't, but if I can make a renter happy, buy groceries that week, and live with myself after the fact, that's still a "good job" fer me.
True, but you could also open up a can that stinks if you're not careful.
First, as others have said, don't bid this job until the demolition phase is complete.
Second, be prepared to find, during the demolition phase, that the entire wall is rotted, including the bottom plate and maybe even some of the subfloor. Let's not forget that water is subject to the forces of gravity.
Third, make sure that your contract/invoice/other papers specifically say that you are not responsible for mold or its consequenses. If you leave this as an "open" issue, it could haunt you (and cost you) decades from now.
Unless you're the lead dog, the view just never changes.
I'm all for giving it a go--just don't do it with blinders and a false sense of security.Considered a shower liner(fiberglass overlay)? FHB it ain't but---just thinking with my fingersI just can't see ya getting away without a full back wall--How would you splice in backer against your cut out section of wall and keep the grout toghether---I would plan for a full back wall which would put you way over the 8 hour dream--Nun said--hope it all goes well--let us know--I love learning from others.Mike" I reject your reality and substitute my own"
Adam Savage---Mythbusters
Mike's right about not trying to patch in part of that wall. You're looking at a full-wall demo & rebuild. Minimum. There is a very real probability you've got stud rot, plate rot, and subfloor rot.
The way to go should be discussed with the owner, explaining the various possible scenarios and giving him/her a range to choose from. Then get the HO to sign off on the choice, and go.
As far as the bid, this is a T&M job. No way I'd bid that as a flat rate. Your 8-hour estimate is, IMO, extremely optimistic, too. I'd figure two or three times that to do it right, assuming no framing or subfloor rot (which is a big assumption, considering what you've already seen).
So your HO's choices are:
(1) full shower tear-out and replace with (a) new tiled shower or (b) pre-fab fibreglas unit
(2) partial (1 wall) tear-out and replace with ½" Durock, Kerdi membrane, and new tile
(3) sectional tear-out and patch w/greenboard, mastic, and a 30-day guarantee....
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
Thanks, a lot of good advice. I know the property owner is looking for a "quick fix", which I'll try to do within reason. One look at the tub/shower, and you can tell it needs to be replaced, which she hasn't even mentioned. She's already given me the green light for exploratory surgery, which she'll pay me for, and give her a prognosis. I'll watch for mold and rot, thanks for the heads up. She called tonight, and added to the job. Install two pre-hung doors, and a little painting. No bid, "just do it and bill me". I'll break it down, and bill each section. Don't like to get too far out on that proverbial limb, even with little projects. But she's been a quick payer in the past, and she's obviously in need of someone to handle this stuff for her, since she's out of town and can't really spend a lot of time shopping for tradesmen.So I think it will work out OK. I do hate that rental property owners are always looking to patch what's there, rather than replace, when its obvious that its time. Thats real common here, probably a lot of other places too. Not exactly slumlords (these are decently clean and maintained apartments), but cheesy nonetheless. About that 8-hr estimate being optimistic - LOL - that's always been my problem! After too many years, I'm finally starting to get a little more realistic in my bidding. Thanks for the reminder!
I believe Dinosaur meant this for you Huck--- Mike's right about not trying to patch in part of that wall. You're looking at a full-wall demo & rebuild. Minimum. There is a very real probability you've got stud rot, plate rot, and subfloor rot.The way to go should be discussed with the owner, explaining the various possible scenarios and giving him/her a range to choose from. Then get the HO to sign off on the choice, and go.As far as the bid, this is a T&M job. No way I'd bid that as a flat rate. Your 8-hour estimate is, IMO, extremely optimistic, too. I'd figure two or three times that to do it right, assuming no framing or subfloor rot (which is a big assumption, considering what you've already seen).So your HO's choices are: (1) full shower tear-out and replace with (a) new tiled shower or (b) pre-fab fibreglas unit(2) partial (1 wall) tear-out and replace with ½" Durock, Kerdi membrane, and new tile(3) sectional tear-out and patch w/greenboard, mastic, and a 30-day guarantee....Dinosaur A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...But it is not this day.
Mike" I reject your reality and substitute my own"
Adam Savage---Mythbusters
"exploratory surgery" is definitely the way to go here unless the customer knows and agrees that anything less is just a temporary bandaid. If they just want the bandaid, I would personally pass on the job unless the customer would release me from any liability.
I had a similar problem last year where a customer asked me to re-attach a loose tile on the shower window sill. There was nothing left to attach it to, and by the time the exploratory surgery was done, the job was a complete demo and rebuild.