I must be too tired or too stupid to figure out what I’m doing wrong… I’m just trying to cut 12″ porcelain tiles in half. I’ve tried about 8 or 9 tiles. On each one, as I near the end of the cut one side of the tile breaks.
This is about the third time I’ve used this saw (bought it new). Blade cuts through the tiles with little effort. I’ve tried feeding slow, tried feeding fast. Tried having someone hold the one side of the tile while I hold the other. I’ve tried tiles from different boxes. Tried cutting with the tile against the fence…tried it off in the middle of the table.
The previous uses, I didn’t have this problem. Sure, I’d occasionally get a break, but for the most part it was cutting fine.
Any suggestions? I pasted a pic of the saw below, but I suspect the problem is with me, not the saw.
jt8
Time is the coin of your life. It is the only coin you have, and only you can determine how it will be spent. Be careful lest you let other people spend it for you.
— Carl Sandburg
Edited 5/9/2009 3:45 am by JohnT8
Replies
It may be for one of two reasons:
a. Tile is not sitting flat on table so as you get to the end of the cut, some tension is created and the tile snaps. One solution to this is to shim the tile so it is making contact at all corners - including the new cut corners.
b. the blade is warped or the arbor is not true to the table. Either way, the blade is wobbling. You can test this by placing a dowel end against the blade and rotating the blade with one hand. The wobble may only be 1/32" but that's enough. You can also turn the machine on and place your finger/ dowel softly against the face - NOT EDGE - of the blade and you will feel the blade vibrating.
Hope this helps,
Frankie
Flay your Suffolk bought-this-morning sole with organic hand-cracked pepper and blasted salt.
Thrill each side for four minutes at torchmark haut. Interrogate a lemon.
Embarrass any tough roots from the samphire. Then bamboozle till it's al dente with that certain je ne sais quoi.
Arabella Weir as Minty Marchmont - Posh Nosh
Thanks, Frankie, I will check the blade first. It cuts through the tile with little to no effort, but there is a fair amount of vibration.
jt8
Time is the coin of your life. It is the only coin you have, and only you can determine how it will be spent. Be careful lest you let other people spend it for you. -- Carl Sandburg
This is the blade I prefere http://www.contractorsdirect.com/Tile-Tools/Wet-Diamond-Blades-Porcelain-Granite/Alpha-Porcellana-Wet-Diamond-Blade
and http://www.contractorsdirect.com/Tile-Tools/Wet-Diamond-Blades-Porcelain-Granite/MK-415-Porcelain-Diamond-Blade
but for less money MK's Hot Dog is a good blade as well.
http://www.cliffordrenovations.com
http://www.ramdass.org
Edited 5/9/2009 1:04 pm ET by andybuildz
I was installing cabinets all day, so didn't get a chance to check my current blade/arbor.
Is there some dang law that says you can't buy a GOOD round saw blade for less than $70?! Table saw, Tile Saw, Miter Saw... <sigh>
I'd probably pull the trigger on the Alpha blade except that I needed to have this tub tile done two weeks ago and have to at least make an effort to get it done tomorrow. Probably no luck of finding one local.
jt8
Time is the coin of your life. It is the only coin you have, and only you can determine how it will be spent. Be careful lest you let other people spend it for you. -- Carl Sandburg
A good tile supply house probably sells decent blades if you need one in a pinch.
Sometimes even Home Depot has a decent one like MK although I haven't seen MK's there in a while...they used to sell them. the Ridgid brand they sell isn't horrible for a cheap $60ish dollar blade. Kinda thin but they've gotten me through several jobs.
http://www.cliffordrenovations.com
http://www.ramdass.org
Actually 3 reasons for the saw to break tile, the third no one has mentioned is if the straight edge the tile is squared against becomes loose, or the tile rocks against it just before cutting through. This is made worse if the tile edge is concave or convex to begin with.
When I swapped out the bad blade at HD I had to look for the other brand (MK). The local store displayed diamond blades in two locations, the tools aisle and the tile aisle. Only one of those locations had the MK.
Yup. A perfect example showing that the big box experience is sometimes only as good as your knowledge of the store.
Edited 5/11/2009 10:50 am by kenhill3
Check out this site. Very good prices, quality products and swell folks. They will guide you if you'd like.http://granitecitytool.com/showcat.cfm?catnum=25&pcatnum=88&keyword1=Diamond%20BladesBuying online takes less time, is usually cheaper, sometimes no freight, and not tax if out of state.Frankie
Flay your Suffolk bought-this-morning sole with organic hand-cracked pepper and blasted salt.
Thrill each side for four minutes at torchmark haut. Interrogate a lemon.
Embarrass any tough roots from the samphire. Then bamboozle till it's al dente with that certain je ne sais quoi.
Arabella Weir as Minty Marchmont - Posh Nosh
vibration....
look to the arbor...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
b. the blade is warped or the arbor is not true to the table. Either way, the blade is wobbling. You can test this by placing a dowel end against the blade and rotating the blade with one hand. The wobble may only be 1/32" but that's enough. You can also turn the machine on and place your finger/ dowel softly against the face - NOT EDGE - of the blade and you will feel the blade vibrating.
Yes. Probably 1/16 or more. Any quick way to tell whether it is the blade or the arbor?
I've got one more tile place to try for a different blade. Menards and Lowes had very little in the 8" tile saw range. Otherwise I'll have to order online. Were you happy with the two that Andy suggested?
jt8
Time is the coin of your life. It is the only coin you have, and only you can determine how it will be spent. Be careful lest you let other people spend it for you. -- Carl Sandburg
The Felker TM-7 is an excellent blade for cutting hard porcelains.Do realize that to a certain extent the blade can be matched to the saw and the tile being cut. How it was explained to me years ago is that a "hard" blade cutting soft stone can wear the blade's diamonds, but the soft stone isn't hard enough to properly wear away the blade's hard steel. Eventually you get limited cutting action, so you need something really hard like a dressing stone of concrete paver to wear away the steel and expose new diamonds.Cutting something really hard with a "soft" blade can prematurely wear away the steel and cause you to lose the embedded diamonds, shortening the life of the blade.
If you have a tablesaw with a heavy steel bed/ top you can lay the blade on it to see if it is warped. Usually, the blade is the culprit. I don't recall the blades Andy suggested, but he is pretty knowledgable. I would call Granite City Tool and ask them if a) they carry those blades and b) if they have a better blade at the same or lesser price. Either way, you may be able to get additional info from them as to your situation.More money does not always mean better quality but usually, if you don't pay for it, you don't get it.Frankie
Flay your Suffolk bought-this-morning sole with organic hand-cracked pepper and blasted salt.
Thrill each side for four minutes at torchmark haut. Interrogate a lemon.
Embarrass any tough roots from the samphire. Then bamboozle till it's al dente with that certain je ne sais quoi.
Arabella Weir as Minty Marchmont - Posh Nosh
To tell if it is the blade or the arbor mark the blade and the arbor where you get a high point. Loosen the blade and spin it about 90° and try again. See if the high spot moves with the blade or stays with the arbor.
You may want to check both for burrs before doing it. It doesn't take much dirt or burr at the arbor to throw the rim of the blade out a visible amount.
posted at 3;42 AM.......maybe you should get some sleep and try tomorrow LOL!
Seriously though, like Frankie said, sounds like the tile is not evenly supported, check
them on a known flat surface. I've had batches that were like crowned in the center
of the tile only.
Actually though, if you're just cutting them in half, why not use a View Imagesnap cutter?
Edited 5/9/2009 6:07 am ET by LIVEONSAWDUST
he's third shift...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
Porcelain tile is too hard for the score and snap.F
Flay your Suffolk bought-this-morning sole with organic hand-cracked pepper and blasted salt.
Thrill each side for four minutes at torchmark haut. Interrogate a lemon.
Embarrass any tough roots from the samphire. Then bamboozle till it's al dente with that certain je ne sais quoi.
Arabella Weir as Minty Marchmont - Posh Nosh
I have to respectfully disagree, I have cut porcelain tile many times with a snap cutter.
Although, (I think) that lots of tile sold as porcelain tile is really some sort of clay/ceramic? tile with a porcelain top coating or maybe glaze stuff
The smaller/thicker tiles seem harder to snap clean but the size the OP mentioned 13"? have worked well for me.
Edited 5/9/2009 8:36 am ET by LIVEONSAWDUST
i use a 'Rubi TX900N' to snap porcelain tiles and have no problems, can even snap off 3/4" of a 3' tile cleanly. i actually use the TX900N for most of my straight cuts and tend to use my 'DW-200-LP' wet cutter for cut outs only.Edited 5/9/2009 8:37 am ET by UKchippie
Edited 5/9/2009 8:38 am ET by UKchippie
Porcelain tile is too hard for the score and snap.
no it's not. Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
agreed...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
what Frankie said...
try cutting into the tile about 1"...
rotate 180* and finish the cut...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
what Frankie said...
try cutting into the tile about 1"...
rotate 180* and finish the cut...
I had tried cutting halfway through the tile and then flipping it around the cutting from the other side. In that case, it broke near the middle instead of near the end.
I need to check and see if the blade is wobbling. jt8
Time is the coin of your life. It is the only coin you have, and only you can determine how it will be spent. Be careful lest you let other people spend it for you. -- Carl Sandburg
I have limited experience cutting tile. That said, I have mostly gotten used to this happening, altho it is probably due to the $50 HD blades I've been using. I am inclined to go with Andy's suggestion of a better ($$$) blade. I know that Andy has cut a crapload of tile.
Edited 5/9/2009 12:35 pm by kenhill3
I went through this a few months ago. Couldn't get all the way through without the tile breaking. Dang near went out and bought a new tile saw, but heck, it was a Felker and not that old, and I could not see what was wrong with it. It finally dawned on me that it might be the tile. Sure enough, I tried a different tile from an old batch and it cut fine. So it was the tile, not the saw. This was cheap tile from Menards. Go figure.
It's the blade. Either it's not sharp enough or it wobbles.
Rotating the tile WILL work but you can't keep doing tile that way.
I know for a fact that when the edge of the blade goes dull it screws the tile up at the end. Blade wobble also does this. It's common.
Cheap blades do this but not usually when they're new. You'll notice the more expensive blades ($100 and up) are much thicker then the $50-60 blades.
http://www.cliffordrenovations.com
http://www.ramdass.org
Some porcelain tiles end up with some kind of tension of unequal proportions front and back.
I've had what you are experiencing many times. It's not eqipment or operator error; it's the tile themselves. I recall on job where I needed to cut out a hole for the valve body almost in the center of a tile.
I was nearly done and all of a sudden, bing; the tile just snapped. Tried about 2 or 3 more and gave up.
"When the spirits are low, when the day appears dark, when work becomes monotonous, when hope hardly seems worth having, just mount a bicycle and go out for a spin down the road, without thought on anything but the ride you are taking." — Sherlock Holmes, 1896
I think it may be all of the above, mostly the tile's not supported and it may be that you need to get a top quality blade. They're expensive, but definitely worth it.
Try this though. Turn your tile around and do a cut about 1/2" in from where you would normally exit the cut. Now turn the tile back to the normal side and do your cut.
Porcelain tile is a b!tch because it's so hard and it can be unruly.
Whenever you're running a saw through any material, there's undue stress that is transferred to the material just ahead of the cut. As you reach the end of the cut, that stress has nowhere to go except sideways. If the material is strong enough it will absorb the stress without tearing or breaking until the blade is through. If it's not strong enough, the stress will break or tear it. That's why the end of the material should be supported, be it tile, wood, plaster or whatever.
If the blade wobbles or is dull, the stress is multiplied several times over.
If I'm doing really fine cuts on the miter saw and the blade is not as sharp as it should be, I always back up the workpiece where the blade exits with a piece of scrap thus avoiding chipping or tearing. Zero clearance gives you the best cuts.
It's a common occurrence when the blade isn't perfectly parallel with the cutline. First thing I'd check is the bridge. A sign of that being off is if you can cut all but the last half-inch of cut line, then complete a clean cut by nudging the rear of the tile a smidge one way or another. That takes the poorly tracking blade's lateral pressure off the tile.
Second thing I'd check is the blade/arbor. Check for wobble.
Next the table. If the table isn't perfectly flat, or if the tile itself isn't flat, meaning for some reason or another the tile isn't equally supported, then I'll let go of one side of the tile as the cut nears completion to prevent my hand pressure from snapping the tile. Pillow tile can be a pain.
Thermal stress can be caused by a dull blade or poor water flow. Dress the blade with a concrete paver.
If all else fails, make the cut in two passes. By using depth-of-cut. A pain, but it can work. Cut through the glaze and upper half of the tile body on the first pass. Then full depth on the second. If it snaps on the second cut then you'll still have a clean cut line at the glaze.
Cheap blade suitable for ceramics not porcelain. Get a thicker one.
Saw head alignment needs adjustment. A blade traveling like this / acts like a wedge and will snap tiles at the end of the cut every time. That's my best guess.
As long as the surface is not deeply textured, a good snapper will cleanly break porcelain and glass all day long. The same alignment/good blade issues still apply.
The awful thing is that beauty is mysterious as well as terrible. God and the devil are fighting there, and the battlefield is the heart of man.
- Fyodor Dostoyevski
Andy and FNbenthayer,
I concur with you on blade choice but I don't think thickness is necessarily the issue.I've posted before about the difference between diamond blades for hard/non abrasive materials and diamond blades for soft/abrasive materials.Things like bricks, concrete and ceramic tile tend to be very soft and highly abrasive. Blades made for them use a very hard bonding matrix to support the diamonds. This creates a combination of diamond/bonding matrix that will stand up to the abrasive materials being cut without shedding bonding matrix/diamonds prior to the diamonds "dulling".If you want to cut granite or porcelain which are hard and not especially abrasive you need to use a blade that has a soft bonding matrix as the diamonds will "dull" before the hard bonding matrix (as used in blades for brick/tile/concrete) will shed bonding matrix and expose fresh diamonds. The correct blade for cutting granite and porcelain will shed bonding matrix at a more rapid rate and expose fresh diamonds soon enough to maintain good cutting performance. If you use your porcelain blade to cut soft abrasive materials you will find it wears down very quickly but cuts fantastic as it does so as it is continually shedding unworn diamonds and exposing new ones before they are needed.I have heard DIY's tiling with porcelain tile comment that it was so hard they had to use three blades to finish the job. The blades they showed me as worn out still had plenty of rim left on them but the diamonds had become worn/dull/burnished to the point they couldn't cut well anymore. They figured that if putting a new blade on restored cutting performance then the old blade must be worn out. You have a few options.
The best option is to buy a blade for hard non abrasive materials (granite/porcelain).If you only have access to hard bonding matrix blades for soft materials, keep a chunk of CMU/cinder block handy and after every tile or three take a slice off the CMU so its abrasive nature can dress the blade and wear back the bonding matrix.If you have really dulled your blade you may have a tough time reviving it by cutting cinder blocks. Some maintain putting the blade on backwards and doing a few cuts in a soft abrasive material will "sharpen" the blade but I have never tried it.I have on occasion restored "new, out of the box" performance by taking a silicone carbide grindstone in a low speed angle grinder and lightly touching it to the rim of the diamond blade while both are spinning. This aggressively removes the ineffective cutting edge and exposes new diamonds.Of course wear safety goggles, gloves, dust mask, hearing protection and any other safety gear you can think of. You only want to take a miniscule amount off the diamond blade. I do this regularly if I find myself dulling blades cutting exceptionally hard granites.With a little bit of experience you can see the difference in the surface of a worn and an effective cutting surface and possible can feel it by running your finger over it as well.Good luck,
Karl
I concur with you on blade choice but I don't think thickness is necessarily the issue.
Might not be the problem for him but to me the thin cheap blades I can literally flex/bend in my hands but the more expensive blades I use are much much thicker/heavier duty.
A lot of times when I need to cut curves like around a toilet flange (where you wont' see the cut) I usually make several cuts into my curved mark...break off the slivers I make with my hand and use my blade to sort of grind the rough smoother and with the thin blades they flex like crazy to the point I won't even work it that way anymore but the thicker blades have no issue at all. Probably a bad habit doing some cuts that way but I have to confess I do do that from time to time.
Just lets me see how easy those cheap blades can bend and get outta wack.
One other thing...what always comes to mind when I handle one of those more expensive thicker blades is..it almost makes me feel as though I have a stabalizer against the blade they're so solid and rigid.
http://www.cliffordrenovations.com
http://www.ramdass.org
"use my blade to sort of grind the rough smoother"I've done that.
every time I do that I'm thinking it's probably not a good idea but that might just be my paronoia....I've never really asked an "expert" tile blade person. For all I know it sharpens the blade knocking off lose particles (doubt it..lol).
Probably a good idea is to keep a grinder next to your saw for those instances (yeh right..lol).
http://www.cliffordrenovations.com
http://www.ramdass.org
I never even considered that it might be bad for the blade. I just thought it might be stupid from a safety standpoint.I know that doing the same thing with a compound miter saw to remove the bulk of the wood in doing a coping cut is a stupid idea.Don't ask me how I know.:)
Lots of good advice so far, checking trueness of the blade, flatness of the bed, etc. Also, making sure you are using water, and that the blade is not dull. One more thing, if the blade has been installed backwards you'll wreck it quickly. Once the bond has been given a direction (most come from the factory already having been dressed in one direction and marked with an arrow) if you run it backwards for even part of a cut, the diamonds will fall out and the blade will be a goner.
I had this problem to a small degree with our kitchen backsplash job. I finally figured out that the main problem is the differential force placed on the tile near the end of the cut -- there's more force on one side of the tile than the other, due to the way the tile is restrained, and so the tile kind of peels apart near the end of the cut.
I found I had somewhat better luck if I used a piece of scrap behind the tile. (My saw was a table vs arm style, so you pushed the tile into the blade vs the other way around.) I'd push on the scrap and it would transfer force evenly to the tile being cut.
Speaking of blades, I recently bought a blade at HD. I don't remember the brand, maybe it was Workforce? Anyway, when I got the blade home and mounted I found that it was out of round, that is, the arbor hole was not concentric to the rim. HD was closed and I wanted to finish the job, so I thoroughly checked and double checked my installation to make sure it wasn't me. The next morning I took the blade back for a different brand, MK, and the MK blade was fine.
I had the same problem just last week. turned out to be the table was not true to the blade. as the blade progresses through the cut it trys to turn the tile just slightly, but enough that the stress will will snap the last half inch or so
mine is the felker tile master. I shimmed behind one of the two stops where the pan mounts to the stand. worked like a champ
John, did you ever figure out the problem?
John, did you ever figure out the problem?
It was the blade. As suggested, I took it off and put it on the cast iron wing of my table saw. The blade had a slight wobble to it. The bathroom tile job is one of about 20 things I've been working on, so it wasn't getting my full attention, but trying to find an 8" blade locally turned out to be nearly a dead end. Of the Menards, Lowes, tile shops, lumber yards, machinery companies that I visited/called, the ONLY 8" blade I could find was a $40 DeWalt at Lowes. It was good enough for now, but I think I'll go ahead and order a good blade online so that I'll have it handy for the next tile job. The DeWalt blade also gives me a loaner blade for when the saw is loaned to friends.
Thanks again for all the help. jt8
Time is the coin of your life. It is the only coin you have, and only you can determine how it will be spent. Be careful lest you let other people spend it for you. -- Carl Sandburg