You All have helped me so many times. Here is one more (ok two) question(s). We are installing porcelain tile in a kitchen and a master bathroom. I have contracted with a reputable installer to put down the two floors. 1. In the kitchen he does not want to remove the existing vinyl. He says it’s ok to put the backer board right over the existing flooring with rim shank nails(?) Is this ok? 2. He is going to nail the backer board to the plywood in the bathroom with no thinset between the two. I have never done it this way. Is this acceptable? Thanks.
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Rim shank nails do have great holding power. If you've ever tried to remove one after it's been nailed, you'll see how well they hold. But ring shanks are more suited for sheathing, like when they nail up the OSB on a new house. If I were doing the install, I'd use screws. I would also use thinset over the viny (along with the screws). I will install the backer with nails only if I've run out of screws. The backer board (no matter what brand) should always get installed with thinset. It's just good practice.
far much better to use thinset or adhesive in etween in addition to the mechanical fastenerss
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Definately add a layer of thinset. I too wouldm use screws, and leaving the vinyl is ok. If Jeff Buck were here he would profess the virtues of roofing nails.
"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
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Ring Shanks will never hold backer board for any length of time, especially with no thinset supporting it. Just ask at the John Bridge forum...
Because of rust?My main reasoning is not based so much on how long the fastener holds, just that it doesn't hold well. While the fastener holds the materials down, it does not accomplish the goal of making it one with the floor beneath so you gain little protection against deflection and other movement which is what kills tile
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Also check your floor construction to make sure it can support tile without cracking. The John Bridge site has a calculator for that. What condition is the vinyl floor? If the vinyl has a foam backing (cushioned) I don't believe you can tile over it.
Ben,Thanks for the John Bridge's link. The deflectolator was exactly what I was looking for on a related project!Glen
I vote to remove the vinyl. I won't do in somebody elses house what I would not do in my own. Take a couple hours out of your life rip it out.
Have a good day
Cliffy
Last tile job I did I scraped away the vinyl, and then applied expanded
steel mesh with 1" staples every 6",then troweled on thinset.
Ed
Remember that there is a possibility of asbestos in both sheet vinyl or vinyl tiles if the vinyl was manufactured prior to 1972 or there abouts...
Bill, the purpose of backer board is to offer some water-resistance to the tile floor, AND to de-couple the tile from the subfloor.. Believe it or not, the vinyl you have already does both. If it's glued down real good, you may tile directly over it.
The purpose of thinset under the backer board is to fill the inevitable voids betw. the underlayment and the tile backer, NOT to 'glue it down'..it gives the backer a solid 'backing'.. And it's required by every tile backer manufacturer so far as I know. Without it, you will have a great possibility of cracking grout and popped tiles.
The backer also needs to be mesh-taped and mudded at all seams. The fasteners may be screws OR 1-1/4" galv roofing nails (Hardi and Durock spec this). Because the backer is of the same density/material as the tile, they become one and are effectively "de-coupled" from the subfloor..The whole tile-backer system will ultimately float on the subfloor, and the fasteners (what ever you use) over time, because of the difference in expansion-contraction of the wood and the tile system, will crush little pockets into the fibers of the wood they're fastened to, allowing everything above the subfloor to move as one. The mesh tape and thinset holds it all together, not the fasteners.
This message has been approved of by Tile Counsel of America and the John Bridge Forum.