Replies

1. 
   FastEddie | Sep 12, 2005 02:01am | #1

   Laminate tiles ... is that like the old VAT tiles?  Are they stuck down real well with no loose corners?  Probably best if you removed them ort screwed down a layer of 1/4" hardie.

    

    

   "When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it."  T. Roosevelt

2. 
   Dinosaur | Sep 12, 2005 02:43am | #2

   Strip the existing laminate. Otherwise your're just setting yourself up for trouble down the road.

   Dinosaur

   A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...

   

   But it is not this day.

1. 
   Andy2 | Sep 12, 2005 06:48am | #5

   We are into the fourth day of removing vinyl tile and vinyl laminate. It is taking a lot longer than we imagined (we are using brute force). I was thinking that may be I made a mistake and I should have installed ceramic over the existing vinyl. From your note, however, it seems like we are on the right track. What problems would have haunted us down the road? Thanks.

1. 
   Dinosaur | Sep 12, 2005 05:59pm | #6

   The main problem I see would be delamination. Thinset is not designed to work with vinyl. For you to lay ceramic tile over vinyl, it seems to me you would need to lay an intermediate membrane, something like Ditra, using a vinyl-friendly adhesive on the bottom and thinset on the top.

   But Ditra is expensive. It is usually used for boosting the rigidity of insufficiently stiff subfloors or bridging areas with different substrates. When you have the choice of using Ditra or re-building the subfloor, the Ditra will often be more economical. However in your situation, I don't think it would.

   Dinosaur

   A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...

   But it is not this day.

1. 
   RichBeckman | Sep 12, 2005 09:25pm | #7

   "But Ditra is expensive. It is usually used for boosting the rigidity of insufficiently stiff subfloors"Huh? The product I call Ditra would barely stiffen a paper towel. A great product, but adding rigidity isn't amoung its tricks.Rich BeckmanAnother day, another tool.

1. 
   Dinosaur | Sep 13, 2005 01:04am | #10

   Rich, are you sure we're talking about the same product? As shown in the post above, this:

   View Image

   is Schluyter's DITRA membrane. It is specifically made for the purposes I enumerated in my earlier post. It stiffens up because all those little waffle-dimples you see in the photo are filled with thinset when you lay the tile on them; when the thinset dries, the whole unit becomes very strong and stiff.

   Now, it occurs to me you might be thinking of Schluyter's KERDI membrane, which is a waterproof membrane designed to be used when creating a pan for a tiled shower. It is the same orange colour, and made by the same company, but it's not the same in any other way. It is essentially a two-dimensional membrane made of waterproof sheeting bonded to a polyester fabric for tear resistance. DITRA is three-dimensional, being a good ¼" thick. Not the same animal....

   Dinosaur

   A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...

   But it is not this day.

2. 
   RichBeckman | Sep 13, 2005 02:00am | #12

   I've looked over the printed material on Ditra that I got from Schluter and I can't find anything that supports your claim.There is the claim that it "Supports heavy loads" but that is not the same thing as stiffening the floor.Rich BeckmanAnother day, another tool.

3. 
   Dinosaur | Sep 13, 2005 02:24am | #13

   Rich, I don't have the printed material, so I looked at the website to see if I was out to lunch on this one. Technically, you are right. They do not claim it stiffens floors.

   However....

   View Image

   Note the floor thicknesses specified in the first section of this chart. 5/8" ply subfloor on 16" centers. That's half of what is normally spec'd for tile installation (1¼"). Also notice they state: "Replaces second layer of plywood for ceramic tile installation.

   So, while Schlüter doesn't state Ditra will 'stiffen' a subfloor, it does indicate you can use it on a subfloor that would otherwise be considered insufficiently thick to have the rigidity or stiffness required for tile.

   Will you buy that weasling??

   Dinosaur

   A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...

   But it is not this day.

4. 
   FastEddie | Sep 13, 2005 05:05am | #15

   How does this sound ...

   You want a certain thickness of ply on reasonably short span joists to keep thje floor from deflecting enought to crack the tile.  If you don't have that, then the Ditra acts as a bond breaker so that the subfloor can move a little and not crack the tile.  Key here is "a little" cuz if the subfloor deflection is too much, nothing will save the tile.

     

   "When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it."  T. Roosevelt

5. 
   RichBeckman | Sep 13, 2005 06:57am | #17

   "Will you buy that weasling??"Yes and no.I think FastEddie is on target. Ditra does not stiffen floors, but it does accomodate some movement. And you do seem to be saying that, NOW.But this is not the same thing as stiffening the floor.I also question the idea of using a vinyl friendly adhesive to adhere the Ditra to the existing vinyl. I wonder what Schluter would say about that.If the poster is going to leave the vinyl, then he/she needs to put down one of the cementitious backerboards that gets thinsetted AND screwed. This assumes that the subfloor is sufficiently stiff in the first place.Rich BeckmanAnother day, another tool.

6. 
   Dinosaur | Sep 13, 2005 07:52am | #18

   I also question the idea of using a vinyl friendly adhesive to adhere the Ditra to the existing vinyl. I wonder what Schluter would say about that.

   Schlüter specifically mentions using the appropriate type of adhesive on the bottom of the DITRA to bond the fleece to substrates to which thinset will not bond, and thinset on the top side to bond the tiles to the plastic waffle.

   If the poster is going to leave the vinyl, then he/she needs to put down one of the cementitious backerboards that gets thinsetted AND screwed. This assumes that the subfloor is sufficiently stiff in the first place.

   Rich, the guy's floor is a concrete slab. How much stiffer do you want it to be?? And you're suggesting using thinset on top of the vinyl tile, which is a waste of thinset. It won't stick. That's the initial issue here.

   The only thing besides gravity that would be holding down those Durock panels you want him to use would be all those Tapcons he'd have to use to screw them to the concrete.

   I go back to my original suggestion to this guy:

   "Strip the existing laminate. Otherwise your're just setting yourself up for trouble down the road." (http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=63007.3)

   The whole idea of suggesting Ditra was in case he didn't want to strip the vinyl laminate for some reason. I suggested it as an alternative, and also said:

   "But Ditra is expensive.... When you have the choice of using Ditra or re-building the subfloor, the Ditra will often be more economical. However in your situation, I don't think it would." http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=63007.7

   So let's KISS. Keep It Simple: Strip.

   Dinosaur

   A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...

   But it is not this day.

7. 
   RichBeckman | Sep 13, 2005 08:20am | #19

   "Rich, the guy's floor is a concrete slab. How much stiffer do you want it to be??"LOL!! Yeah, I got confused. But in my defense, you're the one that started talking about stiffening floors!"Schlüter specifically mentions using the appropriate type of adhesive on the bottom of the DITRA to bond the fleece to substrates to which thinset will not bond, and thinset on the top side to bond the tiles to the plastic waffle."Well, yes, but there is also this in the printed material:"Ditra can also be used over existing vinyl or ceramic tile floor.... These substrates require special preparation. Please contact Customer Service at 1-800-472-4588(USA) or 1-800-667-8746 (Canada)."So they want some say in what is the "appropriate type of adhesive".Rich BeckmanAnother day, another tool.

8. 
   Dinosaur | Sep 13, 2005 08:52am | #20

   Okay, so in the Kingdom of the Confused, we're both up too late anyway, LOL.

   I'm outta here. It's already way too far into tomorrow....

   Dinosaur

   A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...

   But it is not this day.

2. 
   BobS | Sep 12, 2005 09:49pm | #8

   I've never tried this but I've got to do it down the road myself. Can you just pour floor leveling compount over the whole thing to seal it in? Or even just another thin layer of concrete?

1. 
   Dinosaur | Sep 13, 2005 01:12am | #11

   Can you just pour floor leveling compount over the whole thing to seal it in? Or even just another thin layer of concrete?

   Again, you're going to have the same problem. PVC is one of those slickery plastics that only a few specialty adhesives will stick to. None of the cementitious products used with ceramic tile are gonna stick to it.

   I suppose you could pour another slab on top of it, but unless you lay a wire grid in it and pour it at least 1½" thick, it's gonna crack. Unless you get into some gee-whiz hi-strength thin-layer specialty concrete, I think you would need at least that thickness because you will not be able to depend on it bonding to the vinyl tile substrate. Heck, even if you wanted to pour a new slab on top of old concrete, you'd need to paint the old slab with concrete bonding agent or it won't bond.

   It's a loser, IMO. Somtimes, there is just no 'neat & easy' way to do something right. Just bite the bullet, strip the damn vinyl, and you'll sleep better for it....

   Dinosaur

   A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...

   But it is not this day.

3. 
   xxPaulCPxx | Sep 12, 2005 11:29pm | #9

   View Image

   The orange stuff is the Ditra, and it was featured in this months issue of Fine Homebuilding!  I'm wondering if it can be atached to the tile underneith with fasteners instead of morter?

   Our home was built in 1960, when apparently every building material was composed of asbestos (tile, mastic, drywall, drywall mud, ceiling spray, shingles, romex sheathing, duct insulation, etc.)  Our entire 1st floor has those asbestos tiles under the carpet.  We paid an abatement company to come out and remove it - but it is REALLY hard finding one that will do residential.  The place we found (Envirocon - I recommend them) had a minimum price of $1200 to have a crew come out and do anything... which was about $800 cheaper then the only other company willing to consider working for us.

   I hired them to remove both some asbestos tile and some non asbestos laminate flooring.  They had the flood up in an hour that I had been hacking away at for a day trying to get removed - great work!Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA

   Also a CRX fanatic!

4. 
   Andy2 | Sep 13, 2005 04:28am | #14

   Thanks for the tip. Another related question; After removing the vinyl, the concrete floor feels tacky in places. Is it required that I remove the glue (or whatever it is)  completely with alcohol or some other solvent?

1. 
   Dinosaur | Sep 13, 2005 06:57am | #16

   Yes, removing as much as humanly possible of the old glue is highly desireable. If the slab surface is in bad shape (ground-in dirt, oil, paint stains, etc), you may need to acid-wash it after you get the vinyl glue off.

   I don't know what solvent you'll need to get that glue up. Ask your local tile supplier if he has any ideas. Chances are if he sells vinyl tiles he'll know what will dissolve the glue used for them.

   Dinosaur

   A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...

   But it is not this day.

3. 
   IdahoDon | Sep 12, 2005 04:27am | #3

   I'd also recommend taking up the old tile and taking full advantage of that concrete subfloor.

4. 
   Lew | Sep 12, 2005 06:09am | #4

   Around her homeowners are allowed to remove their own asbestos, and dispose of it as they would regular trash I believe (although I would not recommend it).

   If you decide to rip your tile up, you can have it tested for asbestos. if none, happily rip away. If there is some there, protect yourself. Do some research on the best ways to do it. It can't get airborne if you keep it wet (don't know if that's possible for you). The less ripping/ tearing you do the less will be sent into the air, so try to remove he tiles whole, maybe slide a flat shovel under the edge once you get a couple removed.

   Good luck-