Replies

1. 
   FastEddie | Dec 03, 2005 11:31pm | #1

   One reason the tiles are cheaper than the granite is because they are smaller, and can be made from scraps of the big stuff.  And they are thinner.  Granite tops are 2 cm or 3 cm thick which is about 7/8" and 1-1/4".  The tiles are about 1/4" or maybe 3/8" at the most.

   If you get a good quality tile, it will be of a consistent thickness and consistent dimension, and you can lay it tight.

   Don't use silicone for the joints, use either epoxy grout or plain unsanded grout.  And don't set it with silicone, which will never get hard.  Use a good quality thinset, and use white thinset with green tile.

    

    

   "When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it."  T. Roosevelt

2. 
   Karl | Dec 04, 2005 02:14am | #2

   As a granite fabricator I am stunned at how inexpensive prefabbed granite countertops are being sold.

   A client recently asked me to install a prefab emerald pearl six foot vanity. All I had to do was cut out and polish the sink hole, drill the faucet holes and cut top and backsplash to fit.

   The top had a laminated edge with full bullnose, the 4" splash had a half bullnose and the polish was about 90 percent good. Nothing a coat of wax wouldn't conceal.

   Total material cost was 290 dollars including tax.

   They stocked 6, 9 and 9.5 foot lengths. Both 4" splash and full splash. Had peninsulas as well bullnosed on three sides.

   About twenty different colors in stock.

   The real mind blower was the luna pearl granite tops. A six foot pre bullnosed length was 49 dollars. I charge 50 dollars a foot for just laminating, shaping and polishing a bullnose edge.

   It looks like China is killing one more component of the us industrial base. With prices like these I don't think I can compete except on high end kitchens with big curves, unusual edge profiles or unique colors.

   Granite tile is a poor choice for countertops. Either go slab or get some really cool looking ceramic tile. The best feature of granite is the lack of grout joints, with granite tile you still have the joint. I see granite tile like buying a high end "luxury" Hyundai car and feeling like you have a lexus.

   Just my 2cents. Not trying to offend anyone.

   karl

1. 
   FastEddie | Dec 04, 2005 02:47am | #3

   I see granite tile like buying a high end "luxury" Hyundai car and feeling like you have a lexus.

   Met with a doctor the other night about doing lots of work in his house.  They have been there 12-14 years and want to upgrade the floors, walls, and kitchen counters (and appliances).  Except for a few thjings, I thought the house looked nice. 

   Anyway, he wants Uba Tuba in the kitchen.  I know ennough that I could walk him through the basics, and we figured it would take three full slabs, with a lot of waste becasue the island has a large 45 degree corner.  So i said that's gonna be about $8,000 in granite, just from the fabricator, plus my cost to do the sink, etc.  His eyes got big.  then he starts talking about doing the island in a slab, and doing the two counters in granite tiles of the same color.  Sounds like it will look real cheap to me.

   Then we started on the floor tile.  He wants to take out the existing ceramic tile and install about 1900 sf of new tile.  He had some samples from HD, and he was proud of them.  None with a sticker price of more than $3/sf.  They werre porcelain with a glazed finish.  I told him they looked like he ran out of money.  Has said HD could install them for $3/sf, and could I compete with that?  DW says I should walk away from this one.

     

   "When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it."  T. Roosevelt

2. 
   WorkshopJon | Dec 04, 2005 03:03am | #4

   It looks like China is killing one more component of the us industrial base.

   So true, AND, they are buying up America, cheaper than invading.

   WSJ

1. 
   TJK | Dec 04, 2005 05:46am | #5

   "So true, AND, they are buying up America, cheaper than invading."Why shouldn't they? We're borrowing about $2bn a day from them so we can buy all that "cheap" stuff our hearts desire. As for the granite tile on kitchen counters, I'd avoid it mainly because it will get chipped, and the edges will mar or scratch anything dragged across it.

3. 
   ElegantSolution | Dec 04, 2005 07:03pm | #10

   Karl,

   Thanks for your information.  I live near Madison, Wisconsin.  Where do you find this inexpensive Chinese granite? 

   I had seen it in Santa Fe, New Mexico.  It came in only two colors, but was shipped in long pieces 30 inches wide with a lamineted bullnose on one end, and possibly a half bullnose on the other.  It required slicing a 4 inch section off to make a backsplash.

   You sound like a fabricator.  Do I need to use a professional fabricator to do the custom cutting work, or are there tools and techniques that I can fairly easily master (I am a skilled woodworker)?

   Joe Mirenna

1. 
   Karl | Dec 04, 2005 11:53pm | #11

   The place I saw the cheap slab countertops was KZ kitchens on N first st in San Jose, CA.You can do rough cuts (not seams) with a 7" skilsaw or 4 1/2" waterfed circular saw and a diamond blade. Pearl abrasives makes a "roller skate" and water feed you can put on a skilsaw. I think they call it a saw roller or something like that. It raises the saw off the slab so you dont scratch it while cutting. I have never tried one but might if I were just making a few cuts on a limited tool budget. The most important thing to understand about cutting slabs 3/4" thick or more is to cut in repetitive passes. In otherwords make 3 or 4 passes do cut through a 3/4" surface. Cutting full depth will encourage the blade to wander and wear your blade unevenly.I use cheap blades on a 8" water fed worm drive. I pay about 50 dollars a blade. Pearl abrasives or Alpha make nice blades. Just make sure it has a soft bonding matrix in the blade. Hard matrix blades are for concrete and other soft abrasive materials. They will quickly dull and refuse to cut granite. Also dress your wheel on a concrete cinderblock to wear away the bonding matrix and expose new diamonds if cutting performance deterioratesAs a skilled woodworker you will be able to figure out 90 percent of the challenges of stone fabrication. It is the same as a tilesetter deciding to make his own kitchen cabinets. Much of the skills transfer across trades but it is not realistic to expect to match the results of someone who has been doing it every day for ten years.Check out Luka's thread on polishing countertops from last week. A few posts in is a link to a website a fabricator put together. It isn't comprehensive in its info but offers some good honest info

1. 
   FastEddie | Dec 05, 2005 04:51am | #13

   Check out Luka's thread on polishing countertops from last week

   Do you have a link or title or discussion number?

     

   "When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it."  T. Roosevelt

1. 
   Karl | Dec 05, 2005 08:03am | #15

   I suppose one could just go back through the last 200 threads and find it pretty quick but here is the link someone posted. It was good enough to bookmarkhttp://www.stoneadvice.com/gallery/SpecialProjects

2. 
   WorkshopJon | Dec 05, 2005 02:18am | #12

   I live near Madison, Wisconsin.  Where do you find this inexpensive Chinese granite?"

   ES,

   Hope this link helps.........neighbor.

   http://www.doityourselfgranite.com/diy.html

   <!----><!----> <!---->

   WSJ

    

    

3. 
   andybuildz | Dec 05, 2005 05:41am | #14

   I did a gorgous black granite tile counter top about ten years ago and lived with it for over five. I butted the 18 x18" tiles "tight" together with zero problem. The tiles had a slight bevel to each one. I did it on the diagonal which made it about 21" if I recall. I left room for 1/2" CBU on the backsplash plus the tile which took up another 3/4-1" of space. I made a wooden bullnose and stained it the same as the cabs. Cherry on cherry wood. Was a full 24" when done. Never had any problems and all I ever got were compliments on it. Hardly even needed grout but I did use black unsanded grout w a liquid latex mortor additive,,,,not water.

   The only thing you need to be careful of is to be sure your tiles are "exactly" level to one another or it'll look like garbage. Take your time and start in the middle.

   I didn't pretend I had a solid surface...it was what it was and it was beautiful!!

   I'd do it again in a flash if I needed to.

   Did the same with Taiwan green marble on a bathroom sink counter I built except the edge was the same tile mitered down the line. Thatttt is a little tricky.

   Be well

   andyThe secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!

   When we meet, we say, Namaste'..it means..I honor the place in you where the entire universe resides, I honor the place in you of love, of light, of truth, of peace. I honor the place within you where if you are in that place in you and I am in that place in me, there is only one of us.

    

    

    

    

1. 
   durabond5 | Dec 07, 2005 05:43am | #16

   I just did one with 12 x 12 butted tight. The bevelled edges gave the right width grout joint. I did the back splash too, but diagonal. I think it looks better than one-piece solid. If something breaks or chips I can replace a tile. I used bullnosed pieces on the edge about 2 1/2" x 12".Black with balack grout. Materials were about $700 for about 21 linear feet including substrate and thinset.

3. 
   Karl | Dec 04, 2005 06:08am | #6

   Elegant,
   I didn't really answer your question. The challenge as I see it with granite tile is to minimize "lippage" between the tiles. Rarely are the plywood subtops perfectly flat so one approach would be to float a dead flat setting bed of mortar. By the time you have done this you start adding to your initial low cost. When you work with a style of tile that is complemented by grout lines you can use the grout joint width to ramp up or down between tiles should their height vary.

   If you are trying to make the grout lines as narrow as possible I recommend going with an epoxy grout. It is really remarkable stuff in terms of adhesion and strength and you can get a very close color match. Try to find a tile job with silicone between the tile. It is typically found in the worst examples of diy projects and it looks horrible as as dust and dirt tend to cling to it. I recall seeing some glass block project with silicone in between the blocks. It worked but looked very amatuerish.

   I know homeowners get tired of hearing it but there is no way to get classy professional results at a cut rate price.

   Karl

1. 
   WorkshopJon | Dec 04, 2005 12:10pm | #9

   Try to find a tile job with silicone between the tile. It is typically found in the worst examples of diy projects and it looks horrible as as dust and dirt tend to cling to it."

   Karl,

   I disagree.  If applied to the edges as the tile is set (ie. before placement), and they are butted tightly, and wiped quickly, it can be virtually invisible.

   WSJ

4. 
   punter | Dec 04, 2005 08:26am | #7

   We did our kitchen counters and island in granite tile three years ago. We wanted the look of granite but couldn't afford it. Turned out really nice and has handled daily use beautifully. We were careful to pick a tile that would look nice with a darker grout (to hide dirt/grime). We did not have any major problems with "lippage". It did occur (as it does with most tile jobs - however you notice more with granite because it's surface is so smooth and flat) but does not stand out or affect our use of the counters (i.e., sliding a glass of wine to your guest).

   How do you plan to edge your counters if you do use granite? We had a local fabricator bullnose enough of our field tile to use along the edges. We then cut 1 1/2" pieces to sit under the bullnose tiles (gives it the 1 1/2 granite slab look). This was the trickiest part, and the area that you should be careful with. If these thin edge tiles do not lie in a continuous plane, it will look and "feel" awful. As other posters said - do not use silicone. Use thinset. If you do cut and install small pieces for the edging, do not use mastic, as the mastic will shrink at different rates with each tile, thereby causing major "lippage". We used thinset every where and it worked great. Good luck!

5. 
   Wango1 | Dec 04, 2005 08:55am | #8

   Gang-

   As someone who has done this alot, I see a couple of issues to fix.

   1. Do NOT set the tile tight. Have at least a 1/16" grout joint. You are dealing with stone here and any shock to one tile will be transfered to the second AND WILL result in cracks.

   2. Trying to set tile tight will make it look like you were trying to cut corners. DON'T! You'll be proud of something you shouldn't.

   3. Don't use silicone for grout. There's reason we don't silicone floors.
   It will look like crap the next cleaning. Use grout (non-sanded).

   4. Use a pro sealer to keep food enzymes out of everything.

   5. use a hot pad to protect your tiles from thermal shock and use a cutting board to prevent damage... to your knives!