I just posted the other day and was not expecting to post again so soon.
Just this morning one of the roofing crew currently working on the rood replacement of my home slipped and fell off the roof. Based on my conversations with the sheriff after I was notified the worker lived long enough to maybe (?) make it to the hospital. Needless to say my family is in shock, thankfully neither they nor I was home during this tragedy.
This is a residential roof…….job on hold untils at least Monday when OSHA shows up…..too much fun for a nice day such as this!!
Please think about this post the next time ‘you’ are installing a new roof or just climbing around on a steep pitch. It could happen tou you in the blink of an eye!!!
Best Regards,
Neil Wilhelm
Replies
Thanks for your concern, but without knowing more about the situation it's not possible to form an informed opinion as to why this happened.
Most roofers walk roofs up to 6:12 as a matter of course; I will walk up to an 8:12 for inspection but want jacks and scaffolding to work on it.
I never tie off or use a harness unless I need it to hold me in place while I do something tricky on a wall or under an eaves and I don't have scaffolding set up. There is so much craap up there on the roof already--air hoses, electrical extensions, haul ropes for tools and/or materials--that adding another rope is ofttimes more of a trip hazard than a safety feature.
There are other ways to stay on the roof than tying oneself to it.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not brought
low by this? For thine evil pales before that which
foolish men call Justice....
When you hear about someone falling off and dieing, it makes your arguments seem trivial.
yes
Barry E-Remodeler
Gee blue,
those cougar paw,s don't seem like such a safe deal NOW do they? BTW- you do know-that if one of your "subs" falls off a roof-you are potentially liable-as is the homeowner?
Stephen
Sorry Haz...you aint going to worry me now. I spent more than three decades on roofs and I never once thought I needed ropes or nets.
I was not arguing, I was asking the OP for more details, and pointing out that tying oneself to the roof is not the only way to keep from getting killed. Maybe the roof warranted using a harness, maybe it didn't. No way to tell without knowing more about the roof and the setup the roofers were using. Obviously, something went wrong, but all we know is the guy fell off the roof and hit the ground. We don't know why or how.
Were they working a walkable roof with no jacks or scaffolding? Were they on a metal roof a little too early in the am and the guy slipped on a wet spot 'cause he missed the screws? Did he trip over something? Was he coming off a ladder with a full pack of shingles on his shoulder and lose his balance? Did somebody forget to nail off a jack properly? Were they using 'adjustable' jacks, which can collapse without warning? Did someone load a jack plank with 10 or 15 packs of shingles?
There's a million ways a guy could fall off a roof; and there's at least four ways to stop him hitting the ground: scaffolding; jacks and planks; hook ladders; and harnesses and ropes.
Oh, yeah--and the most important one: using yer head, without which none of the others is worth much.
I've said this before and I'll say it again: All the 'safety' gear in the world won't keep a guy safe if he thinks it allows him to work in an unsafe manner.
Two winters ago I hauled a 19-year-old snowboarder off the mountain after he'd 'gone real big' on one of the jumps in the snowboard park. He jumped too high, and flew too far, and landed on the flats beyond the pitched landing zone from a height of approximately 40 feet. I got him down the mountain and into the ambulance still alive, but he died at the hospital as they wheeled him into the ER.
Autopsy showed that he'd ruptured every vital organ in his body. Docs said it was a minor miracle we got him off the mountain still alive, that he'd hit the snow so hard--in a full frontal impact--that nothing on Earth could have saved him.
But the good news is, he was wearing his safety helmet....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Apples/ Oranges
When was the last(or any) time you've heard of someone being badly hurt while harnessed and tied off. C'mon
You're a pro, people look to you for advice, don't diminish the importance of the stuff.
Bing
There are accidents of that type regularly all over the place, but if you insist on limiting this to only those incidents I know of personally I'm gonna have to go back to 2002.
Lift mechanic working on a 40' tower. Full CSST-approved safety rig: full-body harness with dorsal tie-in D-rings; primary explosive 'soft-stop' lanyard with a fireman's beener on the end; static wire-rope safety line rigged to the tower next to the welded-in-place steel ladder; secondary explosive lanyard with self-belaying wire-rope belaying device; yadda yadda. Mechanic also had the end of a 120' 13mm rope clipped to the harness so he could haul up his tool bucket once he got up on the cross arm.
Never made it to the cross arm. About halfway up the ladder, his foot got snarled in the haul rope and he kicked it a few times to free it up. Unfortunately he managed to tie a half-hitch around his ankle in the process, so he tried to bend down to free it with one hand.
His primary leash was clipped to the ladder above him (per regulations at that time, he had to use the primary even though the secondary was on auto-belay) and because of that he couldn't bend down far enough. So he tried to climb up to detach it and bring it a couple of rungs lower...but the haul rope had snarled itself around the bottom of the ladder somehow, too, and he couldn't climb.
He sat in his harness to free up his arms so he could dig into a vest pocket under the harness to get his knife. He was now hanging by the primary leash; the secondary was slack and the auto-belay device was approximately at his waist level on the static wire.
He lifted the trapped foot as high as he could, and reached down with the knife to try to cut the line. As he did so, his other (left) foot slipped on the ladder rung and he spun to the right (towards the static wire), striking his head on the ladder rail, and losing his hard hat and the knife.
At this point, the explosive lanyard in the primary leash let go, dropping him ten feet in a series of short jerks.
Before the first lanyard had fully opened, he fell far enough to bring a strain on the secondary leash and that locked the auto-belay device to the wire. But the fall hadn't been hard enough to blow the explosive lanyard on the secondary leash, so it held...and spun him sideways.
His upper body swung to the right under the pull from the secondary leash but his right foot went up and to the left, and slipped through the rungs and became trapped between the ladder and the tower above him. This allowed him to fall head downwards and the twisting motion imparted by the secondary safety line broke his knee and femur.
His head struck the tower a second time and he was knocked unconscious, hanging upside down with most of his body weight supported by his broken right leg. In addition, his two-way radio had fallen out of his checkpack when he flipped head-down.
His partner had gone back to the shop to fetch a forgotten tool while he climbed the tower, and fortunately came back less than 10 minutes later. When he saw what had happened, he grabbed the 'cracker' rescue tackle, went up the ladder without bothering to don his own harness, and succeeded in hoisting the unconscious man to a vertical position, cut him free of his safety lines, and lowered him to the ground. At that point he called the patrol and we sent a team to evacuate him to the base of the mountain.
This was during summer maintenance, so we had to carry him out on a stretcher, a process which took 6 men two hours. (Ski trails are not smooth except when covered with snow.)
He lost the leg, the vision in one eye, and had permanent brain damage.
His partner was fined by the CSST (our version of OSHA) for having climbed the tower without wearing his safety gear.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Ok, I shoulda known that you would have an example....
My point is that overall, for people spending a lot of time up there, it's smarter to employ some kind of fall arrest system, albeit sometimes time consuming. Believe me, I know from experience doing large area search techniques with the fire service that rope management is a huge pain....but ultimately it's a necessary evil.
Bing
If you'll exchange the word 'ultimately' for 'occasionally' I'll agree with you.
The point I try to hammer home to people is that every situation is different and deserves to be considered on its merits...not lumped in with all other 'similar' situations by bean-counting, pencil-pushing, plushbottomed civil servants who wouldn't know a G-force from a G-string.
Identify the causal agent in the incident I cited. CSST's report (received two years later) stated it was the use of the primary leash when the auto-belay device on the fixed wire was sufficient, and recommended a change in procedure. They also recommended using a different type of explosive lanyard since there were questions about whethert the first one had released too easily.
I happen to agree with the policy change about double leashing on a fixed ladder, but not their reasons for implementing it. The primary leash did not cause the injury; it's just one of 6 elements, none of which by itself would have caused any injury.
The secondary reason the guy got hurt is that he was hungry and wanted to get the damned job done and go to lunch. That's why he didn't wait for his partner to come back and free up the haul rope where it had wrapped itself around the foot of the ladder.
But the primary reason was very instructive: He told me he figured the harness would hold him if something went wrong, so he took a chance.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
A harness can actually kill you.I agree with Dino's point, tho he did word it poorly in his first attempt.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I agree...there are a million questions. A simple nail sticking up could have doomed him. Today, I almost backed up on a roof and put my foot through a vent hole. You can't be too careful on the roof. Keeping your focus is a must. Nowadays, when I'm up there, I'm really just hanging around and I'm not anywhere as focused as I used to be when I was framing them.
"Keeping your focus is a must.""Keeping your focus is a must.""Keeping your focus is a must."I thought that was worth repeating.
I've taken my share of falls, watched other falls, and know the close details of four fall deaths.Most falls happen because of lack of attention in my experience. All the deaths I am familiar with had the added component of drug or alcohol use on a daily basis by the victim. That's not to say that every fall that leads to death is caused by misuse of mind altering substance, but to point out that it sure increases the odds of a fall.And the roofing culture seems to have a higher than normal acceptance of that sort of individual.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
To All,
I did not mean for this to become a discussion over 'would, coulda, shoulda' yet merely a gentle (ok, a slap in the face) reminder to those that are on rooftops on a daily basis. Complacency in any construction occupation or hobby can get you hurt/disabled very quickly, as many of us are aware.
Jobsite safety is a cost of doing buisness (insurance). While I am not responsible for this accident or its unfortunate result the buisness owner now shares liability, as well as responsibility, for this occurence. To what extent, no one is sure. Is it the insurance company's responsibility, NO. It is up to every individual........owner, crew lead, laborer.........to make sure everyone is working safely.
So far as details go, appx 10/12. The individual obviously was 'launched' from the roofline as the deck/handrail is 12' from the exterior edge of the residence. This is where the only visible impact damage occured and it was on a single rail picket (snapped).
Best Regards,
Neil Wilhelm
'Were they working a walkable roof with no jacks or scaffolding? Were they on a metal roof a little too early in the am and the guy slipped on a wet spot 'cause he missed the screws? Did he trip over something? Was he coming off a ladder with a full pack of shingles on his shoulder and lose his balance? Did somebody forget to nail off a jack properly? Were they using 'adjustable' jacks, which can collapse without warning? Did someone load a jack plank with 10 or 15 packs of shingles?'
Whatever the case... if the dude was wearing a harness he'd probably be alive today.
Whatever the case... if the dude was wearing a harness he'd probably be alive today.
'Whatever the case' covers too much ground. You are reacting emotionally without thinking...which surprises me somewhat since your profile states you are an engineer.
Try applying your professional skills to this instead of buying the PC line. Analyse the problem and design a situation-specific solution that has as few undesireable secondary consequences as possible.
If you do this properly, you'll find you can't apply the solution to 'whatever the case'.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Maybe Dinosaur is just saying what many of us are thinking.
He has some valid points.
We all have to figure out what is safe for us.
"There are three kinds of men: The one that learns by reading, the few who learn by observation and the rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."Will Rogers
Explain that to the people I know that have died from falling of Roofs. Like my Nieghbour who I did first aid and carried into the ambulance. Died 3 weeks later day later another guys dies at scene, Coffee row guy busts both legs and 1 arm. They all leave widows and kids, grand kids behind.In Sask there have been way to many fall fatalities in the last year, one guy even made a big deal about not wearing his gear. well he is dead.I hate high places. But have to do some. It all depends on ones skill and confidance level.Yes it its one more line but!!! Times change quality control now includes workers.I am suprised / disappointed that we can not make a decent scaffold, net system.
shoemaker1fairly effective scaffold and jack systems are readily available
BUT
the majority of homeowners won't pay the rates required to implement those safety systems on every roof.
Been in the roofing business over 20 years now- and this doesn't suprise me american consumers don't care if their childrens Xmas toys are made by a child in china( witness the products in any walmart)-and they don't care what risks a roofer takes.what they DO care about is"How Much Per Square?"- bottom line.
the accident described by the O.P.-is why I prefer to work ALONE to the greatest extent possible
it's safer for me- I know every jack is installed correctly-and that enough jacks are installed but-even so-there are risks-which I accept-and for which I am compensated-and are why I don't work at "insurance company allowance rates,LOL" It IS unfortuneate-but it is not entirely unavoidable(BTW- I spend more time each year doing balance drills and balance improving exercises-then I spend doing bookkeeping)Best wishes,
stephen
By the time i set scaffolding , Have everyone tie off im the highest price of any roofer thus very safe as im out of biz. No body wants to pay me an added 2 days on a one week job. Its a Criminal act now if someone gets hurt and you do not have ALL the safety gear of which its impossible.. The OP should Run not walk to his Lawyers office. Im sorry about this roofer, Even with all the gear stuff happens.I for one cannot live with the responsibility anymore of having people that work for me on roofs, At the end everyone untied there ropes as soon as i left, Until the Workers get fined from OSHA, They have no incentive to do everything thats needed to be safe.
Here, OSHA has started fining individuals as well as companies. These are state OSHA officials.
BTW - is there any such thing as federal OSHA inspectors? I guess on a federal government job buy what about on a private job?
> is there any such thing as federal OSHA inspectors? <
1100 inspectors nationwide according to http://www.osha.gov/as/opa/osha-faq.html
I don't think you'll find a fed OSHA inspector on the smaller job sites unless there's a fatality, more likely to find a state inspector doing an audit or floowing up on a report but that's just a guess.
Do you install the jacks and harness sytems when you are measuring and estimating? Shouldn't you be worried about climbing a roof then?
blue,
I very rarely( less than a handfull of times) use a rope/harness and ordinarily I don't have to go roof top to estimate. In my traditional market area I have done MANY of essentially the same roof- so as soon as i show up I know the materialos list- often down to the bundle additionally- I am a BIG fan of hook ladders,and on shingle roofs- I big fan of 90 degree jacks,and a big fan of starting the bottom edge of non walkable roofs from pics.
A rope might concievably save me from the consequences of a bad decision-but I woulod prefer NOT to make the bad decision in the first place.
speed- is the enemy of safety-bad pricing leads to trying to use speed to compensate for a bad economic decision,
poor weather leads to speed-trying to compensate for bad decisionsand of course working alone- i don't have to worry about crack addled co workers, co workers distracted because they are getting a divorce or their kid is sick or co-workers who do stupid stuff because they are 22 and think they are bullet proof.
stephen
Yea - I thought about you working alone and tying off thing. Here I read that if someone dangles from a rope/harness for only a short period it could kill them. That was news to me.
BTW:
>> and a big fan of starting the bottom edge of non walkable roofs from pics. <<
Not sure what to make out of that, except I prefer my involvement with non-walkable roofs to be just in pictures too. ;-)
Using the standard (read: inexpensive) harness, you have about 15 minutes at most to be rescued or you are going to lose an extremity, or die immediately when the poisoned blood circulates to your head. Clots could develop- those cause strokes.
There are better harnesses that have built in releases that allow a range of motion for your legs- provided you are concious enough or uninjured otherwise to use them. Odds are that your employer will not spend the extra money.
Many industrial environments also require a rescue plan before dangerous work starts. I have worked at a couple of companies that started doing that in an attempt to reduce insurance rates. That said, most of the saftety stuff is BS and they only talk about it and have you sign stuff to cover their behind in case you get hurt (you should have known better), and safety is out the window when schedules and/or bonuses are on the line.
Working alone is dangerous. Who will know that there is a problem? Will you be able to call someone? How will rescue get you down? All things to think about.
OSHA is a federal agency. Most states do not have their own OSHA dept.
NC has one. It's a division of NC DOL (labor). I've been down to their office :-(
Mine is the Miller "revolution" with removable tool pouches. I think it was just over 400.00 with the add ons. I tried the roofer in a bucket type, and hated them. And no way to easyily have tools handy was a real pain.
Like I said in another thread (New Copper Job) if you have an incident just once, the harness is not legal for second use.
And ya, hanging for a short time will mess you up. Or what I envision the most id sliding off something and smacking into the side of the building.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
The biggest issue with the rope tie offs is the person using it must pay attention to the amount of rope that will extend out before it stops you. Then, you might need multiple anchor points to keep the amount of rope that is played out under control.
Auto retractable lanyards are helpful... but if the tie off point is in the middle and one is working off to one side... what happens when the retractable stops you... but you swing back towards the middle and then off the edge?
The safety stuff can be a bigger problem for those that do not have the training in properly using it... or stopping to think about what would happen if I lost my balance now, with the rope wrapped around me.
I learned a lot in an OSHA 10 Hour course. Maybe I'll take the 40 hour one day.
The auto retract is on my wish list, the harness was a big chunk of change alone. The other drawback to the Miller is the weight, even empty, I bet it weighs 25 lbs.
It is the bomb tho'..it has enough accessory clips for everything you'd want, and they make standard tool pouhes and bull bags. I'd not use any other for my work now.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
I think OSHA should supply all safety tools free to everyone. According to Pelosi, we would save trillions in Emergency rooms so the bill would be deficit neutral.
>G<
I don't know about free of charge, but I am of the perpetual opinion that anything a government requires it should be obliged to provide at a break-even price.
But let's not hijack this thread into polijiving or it'll wind up down in the trash folder.... ;-)
My purpose in exposing myself to the ridicule of the Yes-Mommy crowd was to provoke an instructive discussion so that some of them might conceivably learn to think instead of mindlessly counting on a bunch of macramé to keep them from earning a Darwin Award.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
I picked up two retractables with built in fall arrest and the swivel connector for $100 each through Craigslist.
There is a telltale at the anchor point that indicates if it has been used. A quick pull on the cable to activate it is a good self check.
Otherwise, they are $500 apiece.
Might want to keep your eyes peeled... I was looking for a while.
WOW!Russell
Yeah, walk THIS.
View Image
Ok, I have a hassle with a harness, but it beats dead, or a fat fine. Or a fat fine and NOT dead, just a slobbering pooping fool.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
I'll see your 20:12 and raise ya 25:12
View Image
BTW, are those vice grips the only thing holding those ladders to that roof in your pic?
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Once the copper is on, yup. Before that I screw the ladder thru the flats on the rails, cuz there is nothing to clamp to yet.
Heck, that A frame is like siding, not roofing. LOLSpheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
I saw the second pair of Vice-Grips that Paul missed, but it still made me wonder. Personally I'd want three or four sets of clamps, but then I'm pretty conservative.
I think if I used Vice Grips, I'd want to tape the handles shut, so they couldn't flip open if a tool or something went south and hit them. I also would probably shoot anybody that tried to climb up on the same ladder I was standing on. That looks like a 200# solution; wouldn't want to put 400# on it.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Thems are wide padde jaws, and I can stand on one by itself ( 181 lbs ast I checked, no tools on) and they are clamped so hard that I have to use my hammer head sideways to unlock the handles, you can't do it bare handed.
Also think about where the weight is, on a 12/12 ( as shown) you are still bearing down on the roof, not hanging verticaly.
And yes, Dale was about 230 when we did that job, and we both were often on the same ladder. It just LOOKS scary, it's actually a lot more secure than badly nailed jacks or weak boards that span too far on them loose jacks. I've been on al kinds of jerry rigs ( sorry Jerry, no offense) and I'd trust them VG's over a lot of other methods.
How many Plumbers have harnesses that they wear to remove vent test plugs? Not too many I'd say, cuz I sure find a fair amount still in place yrs after the home is occupied, this one pictured was one.
And some need a temp cap while I'm working right at it, thems can throw off the stink that would gag a maggot. Nothing like sliding off the roof in a puddle of your own puke..lol.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
Can you explain the 15 min issue with the harness? Is it because the attachment point is behind you and you can't release yourself from being constricted?And, what about some mountaineering gear instead? Maybe there's something there that's a better fit to keeping you upright? Thinking that a fall into a several hundred feet deep crevasse is a lot more unpleasant than from 20' up, and maybe some climbing gear manufacturers have thought that through so you're not swinging like a pirate on a yardarm.'Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt man doing it' ~ Chinese proverb
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I use an arborist tree climbing harness and rigging. It is pretty darn comfortable to hang from all day. Arborists often bounce around in the tree tops hanging from the rigging and are really keeping most (or all) of their weight suspended by the harness for hours at a time.I also use my rock climbing gear at times. Also comfy gear to hang from. I don't see the problem, unless you are knocked unconscious or are badly injured and alone.I also have set permanent anchors on my gable ends and plan to set them on the ridge before doing much work up there (8/12, 10/12 and 12/12 pitches). Might set some today... while I do the chimney sweeping.Cheers,Brian
That's how I often rig myself too. A tree faller's belt. I keep my line short enough so I can't go over the edge. It's more a way of limiting my movement to avoid a fall than protecting me if I do.
It's a blood constriction issue.Best guy to ask about that here is Dinosaur, but he's pretty worked up right now.His problem is that: He is extremely well trained,He knows a heckuvalot more about ropes, harnesses, rescue, etc. than 90% of the guys out there, And because of that, he tends to bristle when he thinks he's up against a simplistic viewpoint.******I did a half-hearted AS, and didn't find one of the threads right off, but there was some VERY useful info in the "Jobsite Deaths" thread, and also in a parallel thread on accidents, harnesses, or something.CTTOI, having found the "Jobsite Deaths" thread, I could have narrowed the time frame of my AS to match.I don't have the training Dino has, but I have some, being ACA certified at one time as a Whitewater Instructor. The ropes and rescue training I received was invaluable.And because of that, like Dino, I know the danger of relying on products over training.AitchKay
Riversong posted links to a articles on hanging fat-head syndrome the last time this came up.
"Riversong posted links to a articles on hanging fat-head syndrome the last time this came up."
An Advanced Search might be called for...Aitchkay
He is extremely well trained,
He knows a heckuvalot more about ropes, harnesses, rescue, etc. than 90% of the guys out there,
And because of that, he tends to bristle when he thinks he's up against a simplistic viewpoint.
Hey, I think I resemble that!
(PS da check is in da mail....)
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Admit it Dino, you're a bristler. You can get help for that.
From what I gather, it would depend on which D ring you are hooked to, and how yer hanging. No, not that way. LOL Circulation is the probelm, gangrene don't take long to set in.
As to other rigs, they must be OSHA approved for the task, I.E. Rock climbing gear won't fly on a roof.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
PROUD MEMBER OF THE " I ROCKED WITH REZ" CLUB
Hi Duane,About the only roof I work on is my own... so if I want to get all decked out in brightly colored gear pretend that I'm a heinous honed hangdog climbing El Capitan... well I just might.Cheers,Bass
Right, OSHA don't care about weekend warriors and such. And I think they'd rather see a non compliant harness rig, than nothing at all even if they did stop to talk to you.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
PROUD MEMBER OF THE " I ROCKED WITH REZ" CLUB
Steve, you're asking good questions.
For a brief explanation of HHS (Harness-Hang Syndrome; also known as Suspension Trauma and Orthostatic Shock or Orthostatic Insufficiency), take a look at this article on the eLCOSH site. You might also want to read this letter. The article on Wikipedia isn't very good, so I won't recommend that one.
You should also understand that suspension trauma and how rescue personnel should handle the victiim are controversial topics. The medical causes of death following suspension are complex and poorly or incompletely understood by many people discussing it. I have a particular interest in this area of first aid for several overlapping reasons, and I am still not convinced I know enough to explain it definitively. However, I will try to give an overview.
Basically, people who are suspended motionless in a vertical position for a period of time in excess of 5 to 10 minutes can suffer blood pooling in the lower extremeties. This results from a combination of veinous ciruclation being reduced by the compression of the harness straps and the incapacity of the human heart to recirculate blood against the pull of gravity without the assistance of the large muscles found in the legs.
The reduction in available blood volume creates hypovolumic shock, and the brain and vital organs in the thorax suffer from oxygen depletion. The body's initial response is to increase heart action ('compensation') and then to 'crash'--reduced heartbeat, or decompensation, leading to unconsciousness and, if nothing is done to alleviate the blood-oxygen deficit, death.
Hypovolumic shock is what kills most people involved in high-energy impacts that rupture organs or tear arteries. It is what killed the snowboarder I wrote about earlier in this thread; what kills most people who die after having been involved in car crashes; what kills most construction workers who die after a fall off a building.
When the victim's organs are ruptured, blood escapes from the circulatory system and accumulates in the abdominal cavity where it cannot be recirculated by the heart through the lungs and thence onward to the brain and oxygen-starved tissues. ELS for victims of hypovolumic shock consists of massive blood volume replacement prior to surgery to repair/remove damaged organs.
In suspension shock, there is a complication. The pooled blood in the lower body does not need to be replaced because it is still contained in the circulatory system; it is only temporarily unavailable to the heart because it is 'trapped' by gravity and veinous constriction. However, and this is a big however, after a short time, the oxygen content in that pooled blood gets used up, and the blood is 'poisoned' with high concentrations of CO².
The body is capable of purging CO² from the blood--the gas exchange takes place in the lungs where blood and air meet--but the CRS is designed to handle low-level, short-periodic demands, not massive surges. If a suspension-shock victim is suddenly placed in a horizontal position and the constriction removed from his leg veins, the entire volume of CO²-rich blood is flushed into the CRS in a few seconds. This is not good.
Think of a server designed to handle a constant demand of 1 meg per second suddenly being hit by a DOS attack of a terabyte.
Most first-aid protocols don't deal with this scenario; those that do usually prescribe keeping the victim in a sitting or kneeling position for a period of time ranging from 15 to 60 minutes, so as to return the pooled blood to the cardio-respiratory system gradually enough that it can handle the demand and purge the accumulated poisons.
That's about all I can tell you, except that here is where opinions start to diverge and it gets nasty. Think of a sort of ivory-tower flame war, LOL....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
I'm not sure I'd let any of my employees climb those ladder hooked on with only those visegrips. In fact, I'm sure of it.
Well, it's a little misleading, there are pump jacks WITH net below, but still...
And I'd not ask anyone else to do it, or tell em, but if ya wanna get there you do what ya have to.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
It always captures my attention when I see the ladder and vise-grip setups that you guys use.
when the principle of redundancy adds to safety, I get queasy seeing only one vice grip clamping that off. I've used vice grips similarly, but no way am I going to get on that ladder with just one. shame on Duanne for posting that photo as am example for safety
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
shame on Duanne for posting that photo as am example for safety
What's not shown in that picture is the pump jacks and scaffold with guard rails at roof edge. A fall off of that roof would result in a drop of about 3 ft.
edit: also, I think there are two VGs on the ladder at the right. The bottom one does not show inthe pic.
copper p0rn
Edited 11/15/2009 7:30 am ET by seeyou
I figured that. I also figured he might be using the rope and harness , but a fall, any fall, hurts, even three feet.One that hurt me was stepping on my own #10 cord on a 3/12. It was near the edge and it rolled under my foot. I came down hard on my right shoulder onto that roof surface and clamped my jaw tight automatically, breaking a tooth.I think one of my hernia's started when I slipped on loose tiles when we were tearing off an old asbestos roof. I was on a 5/12 section with a flat roof immediately below that, so all that happened was basically my feet going out from under me, but my gut pulled up so hard and fast in reaction that I felt tearing as I went down.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I've hit the ground twice. Once from a flat roof 19' up onto drought packed earth and once from 14' off scaffolding onto concrete. In both instances, a harness would not have saved me, but instead kept the falls from happening in the 1st place IF I'D BEEN USING IT CORRECTLY.
edit: Both instances were created by the oversight of others.
The emphasis should not be on using the harness and scaffolding so they save you once you fall, but on using them to avoid the fall in the 1st place.
copper p0rn
Edited 11/15/2009 8:47 am ET by seeyou
I admit to 2 tumbles off roofs my self. Unlike you one was my fault, one was not.
I used the wrong nails on bracket and they came out. Hurt both times, not serious either.
Paul, think before you shame. HOW do you get UP to attach the second VG? And then get the roof anchor for your tie off?
You know you have to remove the anchor to get the copper on, and then get up again to remove the anchor, and patch any holes made by anchoring it in a perfectlt good roof.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
Right On, Dude.Aitchkay
How do you roll your windows in your truck up and down if your vise grips are on the roof?
Here roofers know that they either tie off or get put out of business. The fines for not doing so increase exponentially on each citation.
True there other ways to be safe, but here we have to follow their rules. They being OSHA.
Once, during an OSHA visit the guy talked about having to explain to a worker's loved ones why they no longer have a husband/father/son/etc. Kinda hit home.
Once, during an OSHA visit the guy talked about having to explain to a worker's loved ones why they no longer have a husband/father/son/etc. Kinda hit home.
The OSHA weenie was a shameless, manipulative liar, trying to trick you guys into turning off your brains and thinking with your tear ducts. He is not the one who has to notify the next of kin; that duty belongs to the police or the victim's employer.
It also has nothing to do with anything under dispute: No one--least of all me--is arguing that preventing injury or death isn't a worthy goal. Please understand that I am not unsympathetic to the victim or his family in this or any other case; but that is not what this discussion is about.
It is about understanding how to keep yourself safe...a much more difficult thing to do than to blindly obey the dicta of OSHA or anyone else.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Just another voice in the wilderness I'm afraid. Use the available safety equipment, wearing safety glasses doesn't qualify when they wear them sitting on top their head and fall arrest harness won't work if it's laying in the truck.
I've seen two accidents: One roofer stepped through a roof skylight down 26 feet landing on his head... died, or was dead, when I looked over the edge cause there was blood on the concrete and he wasn't waving back. No safety harness but they were available.
Second was a near death broken neck and very expensive trip to hospital, again, not wearing safety harness.
Sadly, there have been posts here on Breaktime where folks have fallen off ladders and received serious injuries. Not sure how those could have been prevented but something, I'm sure, could have been done in the safety department. Be Careful !!!
Sorry to hear this.
Unfortunately, I've had multiple friends injured (both ankles broken, etc) or killed by falls from roofs. Without exception, it's happened from general complacency or "getting too comfortable" up there. I've always thought that modern safety equipment is just supposed to make up for not being more careful.
It's pretty much like one of my older uncles once said about a motorcycle; "Once you get so you're not afraid of it anymore, that's when you get hurt!"
The person who says it
can't be done should not interrupt the person doing it. - CHINESE
PROVERB
Very sorry. What an awful thing to have happen at your own house. One of my biggest problems with fall protection is getting up the first time to hook up. I wish houses had attachment points permanently installed. They could be very unobtrusive.
I was recently traveling in Germany and came across a neighborhood of 3 story garden apartments that had anchors at the ridge, as well as steel steps from the eve to the peak leading to the anchors. These were tile roofs with lots of equipment on them, like solar panels. Didn't seem like a huge upfront investment for solution to the problem of maintaining the roof and accessories safely.
OK, Guys,What is that Euro standard?I've pictured 3/4"-1" galv pipe on 2"-3"-tall ridge-top standoffs. Once you make it to the ridge, you just clip in. Work your way along, and every once in a while climb up to switch your 'biner over the stanchion so you can move sideways. Or set an anchor at grade on the opposite side of the house (no, not your trailer hitch, BTDT!), and slide the rope over the top of the pipe with no roof damage.Any products out there? If not, what's your proposed tweak?I've paid my gravity bill, and I know -- this is serious stuff.AitchKay
A 3 ft grid of 1" stainless held off the walls and roof 8" or so like a giant climbing frame. Covered with deciduous ivy so it provides shading for the glazing in summer and dies back in the winter for more interior light. Provides an anchor point for solar panels and secondary egress in case of fire. Kids would love it.
You'll notice those permanent steps leading up to the chimneys and flues. HO's are required to have chimney sweep service regularly done.BruceT
I have questioned that for years.And an exterior access panel to attics.Your are right about getting to the anchor point but I think that it would still be a plus.Russell
I've often thought about the same thing. Since the government seems to want to be everthing to us, I'm amazed that they haven't decreed that we should install safety fences around all our eaves. I do think that architects could design more rooflines that made it safer for the trades.
I don't design the same way I used to before I had to build my own designs. Not just the roof, but access to other things that require regular maintenance. I see a lot of houses designed to there is no safe way to get at the gutters and the roof pitch is usually too steep for safe access from above.
I'm a real monkey and have traded on those abilities to get away with a lot of stupid things - like using the air hose on my roofing nailer to give me a bit of stability on steep pitches. But I think roofs shouldn't require special abilities to access them. A good design goes a long way to eliminating most of the danger.
In my area, outside of Baltimore, MD, I have come across only one housing development( built 2001) that had permanent tie-off rings on the ridge. Townhouses with pitch was so shallow (maybe a 4 in 12) I didn't tie off. I only get up on a roof to replace a couple shingles or vent boots or the occasional skylight. Work alone. I tie off, more for a feeling of security, on steeper roofs. Knowing that I have a rope next to me to grab onto should I start to slide, allows me to better concentrate on what I am doing. Being aware of the "dead in 15 mins if you're not rescued thing", I'd still rather tie off. At least that's 15 more minutes alive....
Not 2nd-guessing your approach here at all, cuz I’ll often think, rig, test, think again, tweak, and then do something that’s supposedly way off the reservation, as long as I’m comfortable with it.
But here's another solution:
I’m a big fan of ropes going all the way over the structure from the get-go. The whitewater throw-bags I started out with don’t have the range to clear a 40’-high ridge, or the length to get back down the other side.
Arborists’ throw-bags are a horse of a different feather, though. To start, picture one of those wire-framed, nylon-mesh folding laundry hampers:
Set it at your feet, open it up, and there’s a weighted leather bag sitting on top of a pile of light line/paracord. To use it, the weighted bag is dangled between your ankles, with a lead from it in each hand. Swing it back and forth a few times to get things started, then flip it up as you straighten your legs.
An 80’-90’ vertical toss is completely doable with one of these, so clearing a 40’ ridge and landing in the driveway next door is a piece of cake -- just don’t take out any windows next door.
Clip/tie in your full-sized safety line, haul it over and tie it off, and you’re good to go. An ascender is a good gadget to clip in at this point, but I generally use a Prussic knot in a 6’ (circumference) loop of lighter line to adjust my position on the main rope.
This system allows me to have fall protection the very first time I climb the roof, and maintain it until I’ve climbed down for the very last time, walked around the building, and untied the rope.
CONS: A rope can chew up an asphalt-shingled ridge.
SOLUTION: Slip a length of pipe insulation over the rope, with a length of vinyl discharge hose over that for durability, and center it on the ridge on your first climb.
AitchKay
yeah, I know 3 pro tree guys and even tossed the bag here on my tree trim project.
It ain't as cut and dried as that, and I don't possess that much approved rope.
I hate to say it, but there is no one size fits all solution.
Like I said, how many plumbers carry all that? When was the last time you saw an ele. on a 6' step ladder with fall arrest gear on? Yes, that would require arrest gear, or at least an 8' would.
carps on plates? Setting trusses? Sheathing, drying in with just toe boards and no jack on the eaves? I see it all the time..every trade violating the written rules.
Some live thru it, some don't.
The site I am on now, the PM has a Crackberry with a program to write up OSHA violations. If he wants, ( wants) to write up a FLAGRANT violation, he will. And print it out for you to sign that you were in bad form, before they hand you your check.
No corrections in your work? No more work. We just so happened to have this discussion last Fri. He saw me wearing my harness for the first time, I been there a month I believe. I work safe, he knows it. Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
PROUD MEMBER OF THE " I ROCKED WITH REZ" CLUB
"I don't possess that much approved rope."OMG! Approved? And a harness that has never seen a fall? Dream on.I think I was working with an old 7/8" hemp main line, and I think my Prussic loop was Blue Water R3, hardly a climbing rope, having absolutely no stretch, for one thing.Every jobsite's different, I'm witcha dere. All we can do is use our best instincts, based on our experience and training, and hope that the OSHA guy doesn't visit.If he does, it's, "OH,SH**!"AitchKay
Hey, Dude,
View ImageView ImageView Image
Remember, a family that hangs together...
Hangs together!
AitchKay
PSIn case you're wondering, all I had to do was promise him a flamethrower, and I was down in about 20 minutes.AitchKay
lol...Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
PROUD MEMBER OF THE " I ROCKED WITH REZ" CLUB
As an aside, which you probably already know, but many others don't.OSHA doesn't "approve" any products. There is no such thing as OSHA approved. OSHA writes standards, and products and systems are either compliant or not.p.s. I took a 13' dive to frozen ground-destroyed my wrist-and no longer wear the tools. IF...IF..IF a harness was feasible, from the extension ladder setup I was on, I could have saved my wrist. But the circumstances of the fall would have occurred before my tie-off...mj
"just don’t take out any windows next door."
I'd take one of my windows if I tried that. LOL
Actually, the enabling legislation for OSHA, allows States to develop similar agencies, with equal or greater power. If there is a State agency, then the Fed OSHA is essentially nonexistent in that state, and the feds provide some of the funding to run the State agency, instead of speding it on the Federal program.
well, the question was 'how many federal inspectors'.
In the large (well over 60,000 employees when I left) company I used to work for I'm not even sure the State or Fed insepctors showed up more than once a year after the company established it's own safety program and internal safety monitors. The annual visits were more of an audit of the books than a physical inspection of the facilities.
According to Pelosi...
OSHA was signed into law by president Nixon
This would be new, current socialist laws.
Thanks TH,
Very interesting. So what you wind up with is similar to 'the bends' (but with an excess of CO2, not N), where you have to gradually re-acclimate to your normal cardio-respiratory levels.
Now, since I'm imagining that you can't climb your way back up with the current harness configurations, why not have the attachment point in the front so you could extricate yourself? Or have something like a bosun's chair to relieve some of the dangerous effects of dangling?
At least until the Japanese get around to perfecting the human airbag. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article4819441.ece
Mind you, this is from a height-averse individual. If I'm wandering around the roof, I'd prefer to be stapled to the sheathing so I don't get too close to the edge :)
View Image
FatRoman,There is something called a safety step that allows you to stand up in a harness when you are hanging.http://www.msanorthamerica.com/catalog/product501208.htmlKK
Self rescue is possible even with a dorsal tie in, but it depends on a lot of factors. For one thing, you have to be uninjured, or at least uninjured enough so that you can make a physical effort.
In the case of someone falling off a lift tower, he can never get more than 6 or 8 feet away from the tower itself because the crossarms aren't any longer than that. That means if he is conscious and uninjured, he could probably swing himself--just like a child on a playground swing--until he could grab the fixed ladder on the tower...and then climb high enough to take the strain off his fall-arrest gear.
For someone falling off a roof, it is not so easy, but again, it depends. If the roof has a huge overhang, and the wall at that level has no windows or other openings into which he could get a foot or handhold, there's not much chance he could climb off his gear. Basically, what you try to do in a fall off a roof is to lower yourself to the ground. Getting back up over the eaves is almost impossible, even with help.
To lower yourself to the ground after a fall onto your safety gear, you will need a knife, a 'cracker' (rescue tackle) with a braided tail, and enough line (rope) through the blocks so that it can be stretched out to the full height of the house. That means, for a 4-part rescue tackle (two double pulleys), and a house 30 feet tall from eaves to grade, you need a minimum of 120 feet of line; 150 would be better.
Your first task is to take the strain off your fall arrest gear, and to do that you have to attach the braided tail on the top of your cracker to the safety line or leash above you. There is a special knot used to do this sort of thing on shipboard; it's called a midshipman's hitch or rolling hitch. (Rock climbers will use a loop instead of a braided tail and tie a triple Prusik around the safety line with it.)
Once you've attached the top of the rescue tackle to the safety line, you stretch it out until you can clip the bottom of it to your waist tie-in point. Then you use the mechanical advantage (usually 3 or 4 to 1) to haul yourself upwards so that slack develops in the safety line between the point where the cracker is attached and your dorsal tie in ring.
Unless you've got arms like an orangutang, you won't be able to get that cracker tied onto your safety line more than about a foot above your head. So you won't be able to haul yourself up very much...but all you need is enough to transfer your weight from the end of the safety line to the rescue tackle. A few inches is usually enough.
You then have to belay or secure the hauling part of the cracker so it can't get away from you while you are detatching yourself from the end of the safety line. The simplest way to do this is to jam a bight in the lower sheaves but you'd better practice that at ground level before you try to use it 30 feet up. If you do it wrong it won't hold. (In fact, you'd better practice all of this a foot of so off the ground until you can do it in the dark one handed during a thunderstorm.)
Then you simply cut the safety line between you and the top of the cracker (or unclip it from your dorsal ring, if that is possible), and lower yourself gently to the ground by slacking away on the hauling part of the cracker.
Sounds easy; but when you're hanging free in mid air, it's not. Have fun practicing.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
While some have pointed out that using ones head is the way to not get hurt, while true, misses the point that all make mistakes, many of us have employees we are responsible for and fall restaints most often make sense. Even with those, proper uses is important for many of the reasons all ready mentioned though it seemed only one person pointed out that the idea is to restrain one from going over the edge, thus not having to worry about the problems associated with hanging too long. Again there's exceptions to every rule, but my guys wear a harness or go home.
Anyt time you instigate a hard and fast, one-size-fitz-all rule, like 'wear a harness or go home', you are ignoring reality and will pay the price.
Life ain't black and white, a fact which has managed to escape the government and an unfortunately large and growing segment of the population.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
To: Fat Roman & Dinosaur
I'm
To: Fat Roman & Dinosaur
I'm just an interested reader and I agree with you.
As I see it, extracting yourself from a tie point on your back is obviously a job for a lower species primate with monster arm muscles. An obvious solution is to have the tie point actually a metal loop and pin arangement with the pin able to be pulled by a "ripcord" embedded in the harness on the front. The actual arresting rope doesn't end at the metal loop but continues on in perhaps rip panels to an asender on the front.
The senario is that you fall and after you gather your witts and check the ascender on the front, You pull the rip cord and remaining arresting rope rips the panels so that you drop maybe a foot or two but are now hanging from the front buckle and ascender. Now lower yourself down. I can't see why this wouldn't work?
-- Teri
umm is the weight of the climber and the ladder really being held up by a pair of channel locks?
Sheet metal Vice grips (3 1/4" jaws), actually. Been doing it for 25 years and have yet to have one to come loose that's installed properly and in good condition. Just like any other safety device, it's only as good as the installer.And if I remember my physics properly, less than half of the total weight is actually being supported by the vice grips. The roof is carrying the rest.copper p0rn
Dooood! I have been roofing all of my life.....that pic scares the holy bejeesus out of me!
Naive but refreshing !
Nah.
Today I had to walk the line of a new chairlift at the ski area. Damned thing connects the main base village to the new casino, and will run until 3am, winter and summer.
It also runs along the top of a 120-foot-high cliff through some of the roughest and most inaccessible terrain on the mountain. I'm getting daymares just thinking about if that beast ever flips it's wig and we have to evac it with ropes.
I got no pix of that area but here's a pic (from about 600 feet away) of a gentler section where the cliff is only about 80 feet high. But I gotta tell ya, just standing a foot from the edge of the big cliff at tower 6 was enough to make me wish I were on a nice, safe roof.
View Image
That, plus I'm still trying to figure out what we're gonna do with the screaming trophy wives in evening gowns and high heels once we get 'em on the so-called ground....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Let me get this straight. You are walking through the country day dreaming about what you will do to evening gown clad trophy wives once you throw them to the ground?
Yep, and I was getting paid for it, too!
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
This post is actually to ALL (I responded to DINO),
I'm surprised....and pleased....that the discussion continues. I have read every post since the first one to 'All Roofers'. My thoughts are, and will continue to be, for your safety!!
My conversations with the contractor over the past several days indicated that they do take safety seriously? The contractor was not fined by OSHA and the accident was ruled as such. This in no way alleviates the anxiety given my family via this unfortunate circumstance.
My initial thought, in original post, was to make 'you' aware of the danger inherent in your daily tasks!!
Dino, perhaps Mr. Dinosaur, I have read with much interest the post's that are connected to this thread. My supposition is that 'you' did not start yesterday? I also believe you might be Canadian.......just a guess?
I'd like to thank every one that takes the time to post a response, I just never know what I might learn!!!
Best Regards,
Neil Wilhelm
Neil,
I am sure you meant well-and I accept your comments in that spirit.however-
i could just as easily find your comments a bit patronizingto think that somehow YOU are more aware of the dangerous associated with my dailey tasks than I amsince it is that very danger that has been providing for my family for 21 years now. Leaving shortly this morning to do some repairs on a tile roof.
i will access a flat roof by ladder-slide a plank across the chasm to an adjaecent flat roof-walk over to that roof-and then it's a short climb to where i need to replace 2 tiles.a harness?- not really practical in this casenor was it practical-or even feasible---- on the project I did last week. i am quite sure you meant well-but it is maybe a little bothersome to think anybody somehow thinks i am walking around in a daze climbing up onto roofs unaware that it is a long way down to the ground !stephen
Cracks me up how people who have never actually set a roof anchor so flippantly say "Just tie off"In many cases such as the one you describe, setting an anchor can be as dangerous or even more so than the task at hand. And unless you leave the anchor in the roof, you have to remove the anchor and cover or patch the holes.Cookie cutter solutions just don't fit in this business. As the saying goes there are many ways to skin a cat. The OSHA template does not always fit the real world.
John Svenson, builder, remodeler, NE Ohio
That was true even in framing in MI. My insurance carrier gave us a solution for us to work on the walls, roofs and decks without harnesses and ropes. Essentially, the solution was this: Write a written program explaining that the ropes and harnesses and/or nets, were more dangerous to assemble/use and that in lieu of them we were doing "X". "X" was essentially what we did every job LOL! The only difference was that we weren't writing it and posting it onsite. Does safety makes sense? Of course. I worked very hard at providing a safe worksite and although we sustained some injuries, overall, I was quite satisfied. I always justified my safety demands to the guys telling them "I don't care if you don't want to work safe...the life I'm saving is my own and I'm also preserving you for your kids."
"setting an anchor can be as dangerous or even more so than the task at hand."That's why I like to go straight over the roof with a line first thing, as I described earlier -- pretty quick, and pretty safe.My choice of technique starts by answering the questions,"What are a few different ways I could do this?" "Which of those ways is safest?""Which is the most practical?"then,"What is the best middle road between safest and most practical?""What would OSHA say?" is quite a bit further down the list.AitchKay
"What would OSHA say?"
$10,000, please.copper p0rn
Yep, ain't it the truth!AitchKay
Nope, didn't start being a gadfly yesterday. And yep, I'm living in Canada (since mid 80s) altho I was born in NYC.
Like Steve Hazlett, I undertstand that your intention in starting this thread came from your heart and was not meant to be condescending. I responded the way I did because I know that many people--usually those who do not actually do this kind of work, or who don't do much of it--are mentally incapable of believing the Officials Who Wrote The Rules could possibly be wrong about anything. They need to have their consciousness raised, and I'm one of the few willing to take the abuse that invariably comes in response to any attempt to do that.
It is my belief that if I manage to sensitise even one more person about the dangers of using 'safety gear' without understanding all the implications of that decision, my efforts will have been repaid. I offer my opinions and expertise in the same spirit in which you offered your plea.
I simply don't want to see people get hurt.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Well Dino. I have enjoyed this thread, I am looking at getting a safety job hopefully will know in a week or two.I am envious of your training and job. Which Ski Resort is that? I have never skied east but Banff Jasper alot. I always wondered about the ski lifts and the folks that worked on them. I have many years of skiing, only a couple times we were stopped for a while, usually to some one screwing up getting off at the top.One time at Lake Louise we got stopped near the top and got to watch them blow avalanche threats off with Howitzers. Lots of fun!!!As for the trophy wives, keep notes and you can write a book and retire early.I have been reading the ammended Sask OH&S guidelines, This has helped explain a few things. Last time on my roof I install anchors.RegardsHopefully safety shoe :)
Fall arrest harnesses can also cause deaths
http://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0004/67342/Safety-Alert-06-02-Working--at-Heights-Prevention-of-Falls-and-Fall-Arrest.pdf
I was on a job ... thankfully absent that day ... where a roofer fell and died.
The roofs involved had either 45 or 60 degree slopes. The place was on quite an incline, so the roof level varied from 10 ft. to nearly 30 ft. from the ground. Roofing material was quality asphalt shingles.
What was ironic was the choice of the roofer whom fate chose that day. The two man crew had one conscientous guy, and a real goofball. Naturally, the 'good' guy went splat.
The story was that he slipped as he was transitioning from one tie-line to another. This would have been right where the two different pitches met. I have my doubts as to the story ... I saw too many folks ramble all over that roof without any restraint in place.
I had some work up there myself. Let me tell you, it doesn't take much for a slide to start on that 60 degree part - and there's no stopping you once you start!
Another customer has a 30 degree tin roof. The least amount of moisture, and off you go.
Mel Brooks summed it up well in the beginning of "Blazing Saddles." A rail cart gets mired in quicksand, and the boss hustles to save it - and abandons the guys who were on it. Cheap help just isn't seen as worth saving. Disposable people. Why invest in skilled craftsmen, when 90% of your work can be done by illiterate, illegal, immigrants? Or 'people of no value' whose lives are a record of drug abuse and prison? These folks sure aren't going to stick their necks out and make a fuss.
Pick a trade, and you see the same pattern. "We'll clean up at the end of the job" ... though slips, trips, and falls are the main source of injury. How dare the electrician turn off the power first?
That job with the steep roofs? We were rebuilding after a fire had levelled the place. The cause? The plumber took his torch into the crawl space, but not an extinguisher. It lit some foam sealing a penetration .... Brown's Ferry all over again, 30 years later. A million dollar community center lost, for want of a $5 extinguisher.
Hey, Dino,
fingersandtoes and basswood like arborist's rigs, and basswood also uses climbing gear.
Sphere testifies about the Miller Revolution, and is familiar with arborist's rigs.
In my just-for yucks pics, I am wearing a cheapo fall-arrest, minus the shock-absorber lead. My daughter is wearing my arborist's rig, which I use a lot.
I like that I tie in in front with the arborist’s rig: It’s often the only thing keeping me on the roof, so I need to be able to slide my Prusik (ascender knot) up and down the main line to maintain tension wherever I’m working.
With the line in front, arborists ascend and descend their lines all the time. Why can’t we rig up like that?
A dorsal attachment point might do a better job of protecting you from injury in a fall, but leaves you completely passive.
Miller makes a Relief Step accessory (attach one, or even better two, they fit most harnesses) that allows you to stand up, work your legs, and buy some time while you’re hanging after a fall. They're clipped in, then Velcroed up out of the way. Peel the straps free, and step into the loops.
But they won’t let you descend.
Someone recently posted on BT about having a company-policy write-up on site explaining that they didn’t follow the standard wall-walking rules because their way was better and safer, and that their employees were trained. His insurance guy, at least, bought the concept. I don’t know if he ever had to go up against OSHA, though.
I think a good case could be made for breaking the rules, and working with a descendable system.
OK, Dino, want to take a stab at it? What would the best harness be, and how would you rig it? I’m thinking two loops, one a little smaller than the other, made from 7mm-8mm line. Keep ‘em in a pouch out of the way until needed.
(Rip me to shreds if you must, I'm going to tie me some loops and play around with it anyway!)
Aitchkay
"Someone recently posted on BT about having a company-policy write-up on site explaining that they didn’t follow the standard wall-walking rules because their way was better and safer, and that their employees were trained. His insurance guy, at least, bought the concept. I don’t know if he ever had to go up against OSHA, though."My insurance guy didn't buy it, he GAVE it to me. That was the safety inspector for the insurance company. We were in a group associated with the builder's association. The whole key to conforming to MIOSHA was having that written plan that defined the alternative steps to using harnesses and ropes. For instance, trusses can be set off ladders instead of standing in the truss and wall. I had to say "due to the inherrant danger of working off ladders, the workers will stand with one foot in the existing truss and one foot on the wall." Or something to that effect.
Hey, Jim,I thought that was you, but I couldn't remember the thread. Thanks.AitchKay
Here is a thought for you. I sometimes use a climbers belay figure-8, backwards with a doubled line, with the line running through the small side of the 8. It works by providing enough resistance that a slip or fall is unlikely and you really have to pull in or let out line to move fast, but under slow steady pressure you can move down or accross a roof, without using your hands. How fast that set up lets you move would depend on small or large side of the 8, and single or double line and rope stiffness and body weight and roof pitch. You dial in the amount of tension and feed rate that works for you.That system prevents falls mostly, and doesn't entirely stop a fall, but makes the fall happen in slow motion. If you actually fell off the roof, the descent to the ground is still allowed (no hanging in the air) but the rate of fall is slow. Also if you are in control (not injured), you can lower yourself or a helper on the ground can belay you. Any down pressure on the line below the 8 and the descent stops.This is the "rock climber lost on a roof" method.Cheers,Brian
That would be a bit faster than my Prusik system, which I have to adjust by hand every time I move higher or lower.AitchKay
>If you actually fell off the roof, the descent to the ground is still allowed (no hanging in the air) but the rate of fall is slow.<
as long as thought far enough ahead and made the rope long enough. ;^)
Guys, I read the threads from time to time to learn and hear the job site stories. I worked construction 20+ years ago, including roofing.
But this is one area that I have to jump in on. First I spent more than 15 years working as a paramedic including 3 as a flight paramedic. I have done more than my fair sharing of looking into the eyes of family members that will never see their loved one walk through the door again. (It is not always law enforcement that has to tell the family.) I now work full time as a safety rep. for a major oil company. Where Dino's expertise is construction I have to disagree with him on this one, because safety is my area of expertise.
First, if you have a have a company in the US, with some exceptions you fall under OSHA's rules or if you have a state OSHA their rules. (State OSHA rules must be at least as stringent as federal OSHA rules.# While I understand some may have never had an accident, it does not mean you won't. Saying to stay focused means nothing, no matter how much you say it or believe it your focus will fail. Even the National Roofing Contractors Association understand that fall protection is not an option. Free training on fall protection can be found on their website along with other training classes.
As far as the cookie cutter rules, what choice does OSHA have, the rules are in place for every construction process not just roofing. #Their are a couple of rules in place just for roofs.) So the rules are generic but they have to be.
I know that having safety equipment is expensive but not nearly as expensive as the lawsuit you will have, you will be sued. Not as expensive as an OSHA fine, a willful starts at $70,000, which means you knew you should have it but did not. Even a simple fine is $7,000.00, and I promise even a new OSHA inspector can find more wrong than right.
As far as the argument that it can cause more trouble than it can protect, well that is just an excuse to not put the time to think about the work being done. It does take work to look at the job. Several people have noted that each job is unique, so how can someone make the safety rules up. But you take that into account when you bid the job, so why could you not take the time to consider how to work with the safety equipment. OSHA does not tell you how to do the job only the minimum safety requirements needed to do the job.
I am not trying to take a holier than thou attitude but one you don't have a choice, two if you are caught, you will get a fine. If you have a fatality, you will be investigated, and fined. I would expect a lawsuit from the family, and lastly you can go to jail. It is not an idle threat OSHA makes, they have started to send employers to prison for failure to follow the regulations.
Hi, eddie,Thanks for weighing in.I’m not going to try to put your relative experience/expertise in the balance, but, “Where Dino's expertise is construction I have to disagree with him on this one, because safety is my area of expertise,”... is a point that might be open to dispute. You both have rescue experience in the field -- “I spent more than 15 years working as a paramedic including 3 as a flight paramedic.” ... And Dinosaur himself has been around the block a few more times than you might guess.************“As far as the argument that it can cause more trouble than it can protect, well that is just an excuse to not put the time to think about the work being done.”On the contrary, this thread consists of many, many hours of posting, hours which themselves represent many, many decades of ruminating on this very subject. Please don’t dismiss all of that so lightly.*************“one you don't have a choice, two if you are caught, you will get a fine. If you have a fatality, you will be investigated, and fined. I would expect a lawsuit from the family, and lastly you can go to jail.”Now, there, you won’t find much argument with those of us here. We know what we're up against:Winston Churchill supposedly said, “Democracy is the worst form of government except for all those others that have been tried.” I’d wager that most of us here feel pretty much the same about OSHA -- it drives us crazy, but I doubt that many of us would really prefer to go back, no matter how much some of us profess to want to. So it’s worth taking a serious look at the bottom-up ideas presented here by those of us who, sometimes at great legal risk, would like to create a safer working environment than that stipulated by current top-down statutes.AitchKay
Thanks for saving me the trouble of answering all that. You said it about as well as I could have, and probably a bit more gently, LOL.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
H.K.--I've got a sleepy 11-year-old to put to bed so I'll get back to you tomorrow about the harness thing. But generally, you use a waist tie-in for positioning, and a dorsal tie-in for fall-arrest. That's one of the things people don't understand about using ropes and harnesses; fall-arrest is a very narrow and specific use.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
I will answer two additional brief points that aitchkay didn't answer for me.
One, I have been a professional alpine rescue tech for 16+ years, and have a level of first-aid training only one notch below 'paramedic' (which is a term not used here; we call the job ambulance technician). I answer about 175 rescue calls in an average year, and I have skied 10-99s off the mountain more than once, with full CPR going on all the way down.
I, too, have looked next of kin in the eyes, my friend, so please don't try to play the heartstrings on us; I know as well as you or anyone else what it's like to explain to a father how his son died, and there is nothing harder.
But the emotional component has nothing to do with the problem under consideration. As I explained early on in this thread.
Two:
I am not trying to take a holier than thou attitude but one you don't have a choice,
Bull. You always have a choice. It might not be particularly appetising, but it is a choice nonetheless and it is important that people understand that.
If you choose to accept without protest the one-size-fitz-all solutions promulgated by officialdom, you not only constitute part of the problem, you also endanger yourself individually. By accepting Their Rules on blind faith, you will never understand enough about what you are doing to ever really be safe.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Dino, you are correct you do have a choice, the choice is to follow the law or break it.
As I mentioned the NRCA has promoted the idea of fall protection. They are the voice, politically and professionally for roofers here in the US. They are actively involved in rulemaking when it comes to OSHA. As a group they have bought into the idea of fall protection not as an option, but as a necessary part of the job. That is why they have free training, books and classes on just that.
While I am not going into the politics of safety, I will say that while the system is not perfect it is all we have. To promote to others that because it is not perfect, it does not have be followed is not, in my opinion, the best use of the weight your word carries on this board. I don't always like OSHA's rules, or even think they are right, but right now it is what I have to work with.
Lastly, as far as pulling on emotions, if thinking about your family doesn't make you think twice about your safety nothing will. In 2008 5,071 people died on the job in the US. There is no reason, no excuse, no politics, and no opinion that can change that. Only people's attitude can change that, and it has to be the guy with his boots on the deck. In the last two weeks alone 6 people died due to falls (while at work) in the US, 3 of them were roofers.
So while we can go back and forth about what the government should and should not do, people are still dying. I for one would not want to be the employer, regardless of OSHA to have to live with an employees death.
Just remember that pizza delivery drivers (and 5 other professions) have higher mortality rates at work than roofers. The point being, that the most dangerous part of the day is usually the drive to the job and the drive home.Be careful at work... and on the roads.
I know this is a very serious subject but I would just like to pass along that my radio wasn't tied off this weekend. It was very quick but I couldn't bear to look at the mess so it still lays on the deck.
Here's hoping all have a safe week and a happy thanksgiving.
Sounds like time for a moment of silence. ;o)
RIPAMFMAitchKay
>>... I will say that while the system is not perfect it is all we have. To promote to others that because it is not perfect, it does not have be followed is not, in my opinion,... I don't always like OSHA's rules, or even think they are right, but right now it is what I have to work with. <<
If you want something more to "work with," really read what Dino and others here have said; Learn all you can about preventing falls, learn all you can about all fall survival systems, study all OSHA rules, finally, study the dangerous situation, then you too can decide if the feds' rules fit that particular situation or not.
If not, then you can decide to risk following their rules or living to work another day.SamTA Pragmatic Classical Liberal, aka Libertarian.
I'm always right! Except when I'm not.
You have very carefully missed the point of all that I have written.
The choice is not whether to 'follow a law or break it', it is whether to use one's own intelligence to evaluate and attenuate risks, or to blindly follow the dicta of someone who has never seen the roof you will be working on, and whose prime concern is in 'picking up the turd by the clean end.'
There is no clean end to this turd. Roofing is dangerous...but believing that fall-arrest gear is a universal panacea is more dangerous still.
There is no man so dangerous to himself as one who thinks he can't get hurt because he is in 'full compliance'.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
There is no man so dangerous to himself as one who thinks he can't get hurt because he is in 'full compliance'.Well put. Cookie cutter laws vs Code of Practice. The law takes a while to fine tune itself, and hopefully soon, some change. But this change can only happen as the workers lobby for the situation appropriate safety considerations.But we forget that laws go to protect the lowest common denominator. Over regulate so the dumbest person can not get hurt. Yet the dumbest will still find a way to do dumb things!Ed I used to work in the OR and we put a few folks back together, reattached a few limbs, did some organ harvests. To often it was people who had no training, under the influence, or in a rush. Farming accidents also take a huge tole, I lost a good friend this spring and the investigators can't figure out what happened. He was always careful but one moment of inattention is the best explanation for a grizzly death.The line I use when assessing a situation and someone is pushing to get something done.
"I don't want to make the 6 o'clock news"Tomorrow I start as a junior safety position on a huge construction site. I have been reading up on the new amendments to the Provincial Safety Act. I hope I can come back with a more enlightened view and don't be calling 911.
This thing has been hashed out pretty well and I think there have been great posts. As a recent GC coming from framing, I have to say that OSHA like most gov agency is a response to a need, executed with various levels of success, and in construction the need was safety of employees.
If you work by and for yourself, I believe you are pretty free to do what you want unless you are contracted to a liscenced builder and then he can still be written up.
As many have pointed out there is no cookie cutter fit to all situatiions, but the plethora of regs are deep enough already that I would frankly prefer they didn't add to them.
As a framing contractor I had one crew and later on 70 guys. Regardless of size we had to have written fall protection plans along with general safety plans.
I recognise that there are situations where methods other than those written in the OSHA hand book are safer, but as an employer I'm not going to depend on my guys statying focused. I want that, encourage that, let guys go who can't, but that is not my go to method.
There have been many posts about hanging from a harness too long and if you are by yourself or in extremely high situation that is a concern. On our job site of multi family we had to have a ladder tall enough to reach top plates of top floors, only being two story. What the method is for higher I don't know. For the brunt of my industry, light commercial and residential hanging too long is not a concern if prepared.
My biggest concern was making sure my guys knew how to use the equipment and that meant setting it up so you never went over the edge. Every crew had their ropes and harnesses and they used them or they walked.
Now if you want to get on an OSHA rant (here it is enforced by Labor & Industries) I can post some of the dumb citations I've been written (and beat)
It really comes down to risk management and whether you are liable for the safety of others.
Well said.copper p0rn
...we forget that laws go to protect the lowest common denominator. Over regulate so the dumbest person can not get hurt. Yet the dumbest will still find a way to do dumb things!
Or, as Jet likes to say, 'When ya make something idiot proof, God just makes a better idiot.' And in spite of how obvious that concept is, it is something that should be discussed in more depth because it may show us the way to an alternative method of thinking about regulating workers for their own good.
The short version is, there are some people who simply should never be allowed to go up on a roof (or top plate, or whatever). The problem is to identify them in advance so they can be either assigned work for which they are fit, or simply not hired in the first place.
An experienced and conscientious contractor will have a fairly good handle on this, based on his years in the business and his desire not to see any of his guys get hurt. But da guvmint, bless its black, flabby little heart, is trying to protect workers from inexperienced and careless contractors and most especially from the kind of guys who do all their risk management calculations using dollar signs. As a risk manager once told me, 'It's called risk management, not risk elimination. Remember, we have a $10,000 deductable, so that's our maximum exposure if somebody buys the farm. I can live with that.'
Protecting workers from employers who think like that is a worthy goal. Unfortunately, the responsibility for doing so is usually shared between the unions and the government, neither of which is known for innovative thinking. That also means the individual worker has virtually no input to the process, and it also means that most workers will shrug their mental shoulders and blindly accept whatever regulations are imposed upon them by Officialdom.
And it is precisely those workers who are most likely to be God's Better Idiot, and get hurt or killed because they do not understand what they are doing or why...they are just doing it, 'cause it comes from On High and That's The Way It Is.
A better approach than mandating across-the-board solutions like universal fall-arrest gear, it seems to me, would be to require each worker to demonstrate an understanding of the different risks he will face; and to demonstrate an understanding of and an ability to implement the different ways to reduce each specific type of risk.
That means yeah, he's gotta take a training course and pass a test. And that means the most likely to get hurt would never get off the ground.
Under that approach, instead of having a OSFA rule imposed upon him a worker and his employer would have the joint responsibility for devising and implementing a specific safety plan tailored to the actual job at hand, and would have a wide range of choice as to how to do that.
However, people being political animals, dammit, there is another risk inherent to this sort of approach.
Example: I was in charge of lift evac at my ski area for three years. The job was to develop procedures for evacuating passengers from aerial lifts in the event of mechanical breakdown, and to train the patrollers in those procedures.
During my tenure, I developed all new protocols that were as simple as possible, used as little gear and hardware as possible, and required as little physical strength as possible...because in addition to needing to train our 30 full-timers, I also had to train the 100+ volunteer weekenders, most of whom held office jobs from M-F and could not be expected to be in the same shape as the full-timers. Nor could they put in enough time to learn to use large quantities of complex rope-rescue hardware.
I simplified things so that everybody, with very few exceptions, could learn to do the job safely in a one-day training course. I prescribed and taught the use of only four pieces of hardware: a locking beener; a figure-eight descender (for lowering passengers and for self-evacuating from a chair); a u-shaped line protector (for use on fixed-chair cables); and a four-part rescue tackle (to be used for hauling a patroller up to a gondola cabin or to a chair in the rare instances that might be necessary).
It was a revolution in chairlift evac thinking, but--and here is the danger--like most revolutions, it trod heavily on the toes of those whose special status it demolished. (In this case that was the small clique of rock-climbers among the full-timers, who up until then had considered chairlift evac as their own little fiefdom, and had worked hard to do things in the most complex manner possible so as to put the 'glamour' of chairlift rescue beyond the reach of the plebes.)
To make a long story short, I spent too much time doing the actual job and not enough watching my back, so after three years I was unceremoniously replaced by one of the rock-climbers. To do what I taught with 15 pounds of 11mm rope and an armpit sling, we are now required to carry over 100 pounds of rope and hardware, wear a full-body industrial rescue harness and caver's helmet, and memorise and execute 59 individual steps in a precise and specific order.
Only about 30% of the full-timers are capable of remembering it all or executing the procedure with any kind of efficiency (of course, they are mostly rock climbers), and even for them, efficiency is very low. Average evac time for an 8-passenger cabin is close to 90 minutes and requires a crew of two or three (under my original protocols it was 24 minutes and required one rescuer going up to the cabin plus a ground crew of two which served four to five individual rescuers in rotation by leapfrogging them once they were hauled aloft.)
But the rock-climbers are again the Glory Boys, and the odour of testosterone that wafts over the landscape when they are tricked out with 30 pounds of clinking, clanking hardware hanging off their harnesses is simply overpowering. Whooo-eee.
Awright, Dino, enough of that self-indulgent Keerap. I swore I wouldn't rehash that whole frustrating mess, but I had to tell enough of it to point out what can happen if people with a personal agenda get ahold of things....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
...[Message truncated]
Edited 11/24/2009 5:57 pm ET by Dinosaur
Wow...that was a long post. Would you care to condense it into one sentence for me?
Why? You got something better to do than to pore over my pearls of wisdom?
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
"Why? You got something better to do than to pore over my pearls of wisdom?"No, not really. But I am interested. Maybe not that interested LOL. I just did a longwinded post in the "cut out plate" thread. I'm more interested in that. The reason that I'm more interested in that is because it is who I am....a time mizer. Framing consists of handling upwards of 10,000 parts in each home and if we can save one second, or maybe two seconds on each part...that starts to add up to significant dollars especially when you factor them over a lifetime with compound interest. So, while you are dangling and choking yourselves to death, I'm busy making fortunes cutting out plates. Makes sense eh?
Heh, heh. Okay, yer right. I got a little carried away. Happens....
Here's a single pearl from that post:
"The short version is, there are some people who simply should never be allowed to go up on a roof."
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
The short version is, there are some people who simply should never be allowed to go up on a roof."Ahhh... the readers digest version. I agree.
Thanks for your reply. I have started the new job and it is Sat night. No Internet access yet.Gee's you should publish your words. I had to work Sat as the weekend guy had a family emergency and had to fly out last nite. So I filled in for him. I now get to write up the deckers for unsafe ladder tie offs. no harness, the guy on the ground no hard hat, no high vis vest and a Genie lift with outriggers up, and a load of decking hanging in the air.They thought they could slip in Sat and no one was around.It has been a quick learning curve. Safety job includes installing railings and control zones.
Did I mention I hate heights.Darwin Awards, They are there for a reason.GO RIDERS!!
Darwin Awards, They are there for a reason.
Amen.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
> Miller makes a Relief Step accessory (attach one, or even better two, they fit most harnesses) that allows you to stand up, work your legs, and buy some time while you’re hanging after a fall. They're clipped in, then Velcroed up out of the way. Peel the straps free, and step into the loops.
> But they won’t let you descend.
When I did my little roof, I planned and tested a self-rescue descending method. I worked with a nice, comfortable Yates harness, attached to a 5/8" line via one of those steel mechanical rope grabs. They have two modes, grab only when falling, and grab all the time unless you lift the lever that attaches to the harness. I always worked with the line tight, or very nearly tight, and in always-grabbing mode. I had this attached to the front chest-level ring on the harness.
In addition to that, I had a strap with another identical rope grab on one end and a carabiner on the other. This was bundled up with big strong rubber bands, and attached via the carabiner to the back of the harness.
The method for using this if I went over the side was to reach around and pull the rope grab and strap out of the rubber bands, leaving the carabiner attached to the harness. That way, no problem if I fumbled and dropped the second grab. Then I put the grab on the rope below the one that was holding me, likewise in always-grabbing mode. With that secure, I could reach back and transfer the carabiner from my harness to the ring below the second rope grab. With my feet in the strap, I could take my weight off the upper grab, and move it down. Then I could take my weight off the strap and move its grab lower. I found that I could easily inch-worm my way up or down the rope.
Before I got the nice Yates, I tried one of the minimal Miller harnesses. It would hold my weight, but was so damn uncomfortable it was really only good for S&M. ;-)
-- J.S.
I just used a Miller harness what a PITA would loosen as you worked, always falling off the shoulder. But some folks think people are disposable.
Dino
But I also mention that that big job I got was a guise. All they wanted was a cheap labour with a first aid cert. No fall training, no scissor lift training other that literaly 7.5 minutes.I was working on snow covered steel deck, putting up safety rails 20 feet up. Ladder to short, one boss nicely telling me one thing then one other bullet head barks out stupid orders, that did not meet code. So why put it up? Frozen non starting lift equipment, a worm dive saw with oil gears don't work well at -20 C.If we would have got an inspection today I would have 2-3 fines. So the first time in many years I walked at 10:30 this AM. I told the nice boss, this is not what I was told the job would be. I thought Safety and a bit of carpentry. Not, no Safety and a Lot of carpentry.He asked" was it the heights" and I said yes. Told bullet head at the first interview, I don't do heights well, and he said all training would be done, forgot to mention when!
It is so stupid as I have in my pocket there document of orientation, about how they honor and expect people to work to the local code and there above average OHS regs WTFWhen I walked I told the nice boss, I discussed this with my wife last night, do you want a poor husband or a rich widow? She picked the poor option. He nodded and I shook his hand, said I enjoyed working for you, not billy bullet head and left. He felt as bad as I did.Got home DW was still there. I had texted her to see were she was. She said when I walked thru the door I was pale and shaking. But darn happy I quit.Disillusioned to the Max. Next life lesson, Big companies can write all the paper they want. When they drag a project manger out of the Crimean War????Hoping I can teach skiing all winter.
Don't be disillusioned!• You have a good perception of, and a good grip on, reality, • You are capable of making wise decisions, and,• Not only are you capable of making wise decisions, you actually make them when you need to!Way to go, Dude.AitchKay
You just cracked open 3 fortune cookies didn't ya?
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
PROUD MEMBER OF THE " I ROCKED WITH REZ" CLUB
Maybe you should have just refused to obey orders that violated the code? Mr Bullet would have to fire you. You would get to file with the labor board?http://thewoodshedtavern.com. = no peer mods!
They probably only hired you as a 'safety officer' because either the local AHJ or their insurance co. required them to have one on site. They never had any intention of doing strict enforcement.
In general only major corporations--which are big, fat, sitting ducks for lawsuits--spend any appreciable time or money on strict enforcement, and it's not because they care about the workers' safety; it's because they're doing CYA for the court battle afterwards. If they can't prove they made serious and continual efforts to enforce compliance with all applicable safety regs, regardless of how stupid or ill advised they might be, they can be whacked with additional damages.
Smaller outfits just vanish or declare bankruptcy and then reappear under a different corporate name a few months later.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
I hear you. But these guys are big. I will not say the name lest I get a slap from there lawyers. I may place a call to provincial OH&S but concerned about Big money Vs Polotics. Heard a few tidbits on the job, read a few reports. heard something on the radio a few weeks ago,but finally fiqured out who they were talking about.Then heard some off hand comments by a guy in a fancy truck and clean gear, with a big title. He asked if one guy had a ticket for a backhoe and loader. no was the answer. well he is still running the loader. So how much does this get overlooked?If you read Sask OH&S law it is different were the buck stops, at the top not down the feeding chain. But anybody on the chain has a duty to report. They have been handing out big fines lately, due to many deadly and severe injuries in the last couple years. Now I see they are advertising for a Big ars government director.But during my depressing day today I was catching up and found another job on line and I know an friend who nurses there. I called her and asked about the position and hear her sweet , ga ga voice. You get the drift. Anyway she said to apply and use her as a referance. So I have been working on a cover letter. It is not construction!!Thanks all for you comments.Glad to be home in one piece, hope you all do too, every day.
Thanks to you, too, Shoe.
BTW, you might wanna look in over here:
http://forums.delphiforums.com/breaktimeclass/messages
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
What is a good harness to buy and where is a good place to look for them. I plan to tear-off and re-shingle the roof of my single story house next spring. The main roof is 4-12 and the garage is 10-12. This has been a good thread to read and convinced me not to do the roof without tieing off.
I think you can get the Miller "Roofer in a bucket" at Lowes or HD.Anchor attachment, rope, lanyard w/rope grab and harness, for under 100 bucks.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
PROUD MEMBER OF THE " I ROCKED WITH REZ" CLUB
get a foam cushion and get on it.
> What is a good harness to buy and where is a good place to look for them.
If you're here in the LA area (is that what the La in your screen name means?), then go to VER Safety in Burbank. If elsewhere, tell us and maybe somebody can recommend a place. This is way too important to go with the cheap stuff from a box store. You want a place where the guy you buy from has actually worked up high and knows first hand what he's talking about.
What I have is a Yates harness, but that's from 7 years ago. There are two categories of harness, the little light weight ones that are just supposed to catch you if you fall, and the more elaborate and comfortable work positioning harnesses, that are intended to support your weight while you work. If you're as scared of heights as I am, the positioning harness and tension on the line while you work feels safer. The fall-only rig may be just as safe, but psychologically I like knowing that no matter how I eff up, I'm not going over the side.
-- J.S.
Thanks JohnThe "La" in my screen name is actually the first 2 letters of my last name. As it is currently snowing here in Illinois, LA,Caif. is really inviting. I live in the Western Suburbs of Chicago about 30 miles west of the lake. I really appreciate the input and any help on a source you or anyone would be great.Thanks again
Gary
<<<<<H.K.--I've got a sleepy 11-year-old to put to bed >>>>
time flys , don't it ? When did i meet Ryan ? back in '03 I believe
season's greetings to both of you
time flys , don't it ? When did i meet Ryan ? back in '03 I believe
season's greetings to both of you
Ryan's standing 10 feet away in the kitchen, baking a batch of cookies al by himself (and not hearing me when I tell him to sweep up the flour off the floor and get ready to make supper, LOL). So yeah, time flies. He was six when we came to your fest, and now he's seriously 'practising to be a teenager,' as he puts it.
He said to say 'Merry Christmas' to you and Helen, too. I add myself to that, old friend....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
I think my reply to Fat Roman's question was lost in the messy new forum format, so here goes again:
As I see it, extracting yourself from a tie point on your back is obviously a job for a lower species primate with monster arm muscles. An obvious solution is to have the tie point actually a metal loop and pin arangement with the pin able to be pulled by a "ripcord" embedded in the harness on the front. The actual arresting rope doesn't end at the metal loop but continues on in perhaps velcro rip panels to an rappel arrangement on the front.
The senario is that you fall and after you gather your witts and check the rappel arrangement on the front, You pull the rip cord and remaining arresting rope rips the velcro panels open so that you drop maybe a foot or two but are now hanging from the front buckle and rappel arrangement. Now lower yourself down. I can't see why this wouldn't work?
-- Teri