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If crap looked like steak, would you eat it?
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This may turn out to be a short thread.
*Mike,I like vinyl siding and many other materials as well...I don't see the need to use vinyl brick though as regular brick will last maintenance free for quite awhile if well done...A neighbor put up vinyl cedar like panels...Post more of what you're trying to yak about.Near the stream, done some beautiful vinyl projects,J
*beautiful vinyl? an oxymoron?
*Agreeing to disagree RJT.Near the stream, building with Cedar, Log, and yes vinyl...Hardi plank next.All good siding choices, by the stream...Though offensive too some,J
*I think vinyl (or other plastics) would be better suited to vertical type siding applications. like T&G boards, board and batten, etc. Then the seams would be more easily masked. Also if it were thicker ( blowing agent mixed in) then it could be "started" without the dread tell-tale J-channel. Maybe just some starter components, then the rest flimsy.Basically - make it a new attractive product, but preserve the details of traditional materials. This way it wouldn't be a poor imitation of another material that is better in some aspects and worse in others.-Rob
*Jack,to(o).;-)
*Hi Rob,Yes, my single largest objection to vinyl is the detailing around openings. If they could find a way to get rid of the J-channel. I would be much less vociferous in my objection of it.Steve
*I agree with the trim comments. As an example, one of my earlier homes had the eight inch aluminum siding that infested this country in the fifties, and everything was covered with aluminum, including the front door trim. I peeled this off out of curiosity and found very sound and attractive moldings. A little wood repair for nail holes and some rot, replacement of what was cut off to accommodate the aluminum, some paint, and it looked great. Vinyl and traditional trim can co-exist, I believe, but it seems that the manufacturers and installers are stuck in a standard application method and aren't exploring new approaches.Oh, Mike...I don't know about brick, even if vinyl could be made to approximate its appearance. It's only recently that vinyl has been made to even closely resemble wood.
*Pardon me as I go refill my gin and tonic. Watching you paint or oil your house from the shade of my umbrella on this fine day has me in good spirits. As I glance over my shoulder at my vinyl house it is easy to accept the J-trim and lap joints. We could'nt afford masonary and vinyl is a good second choice.Enjoy the painting, I'll see you again in a few years.
*I can't believe how long this to(o) joke is lasting...
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Joseph FuscoView Image
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I doubt I would add vinyl brick to any of my job's and if the client asked I would talk them out of it. I cannot see how a vinyl brick product would overcome the failures of past brick immitators. For example the failure to duplicate the look of a brick bond corner wrap around. Reminds me of all the brick immitators of the past. Like the asphalt impregnated/homasote"insulbrick" of the fourties/fifties (insultbrick). Or those horrendous interior glue on the kitchen wall over a base of dark velvet colored "mortar" adhesive.
Oddly enough.. the siding that looked MOST like wood clapboard has I believe been discontinued. The "restoration series" which had no fake wood grain at all but was smooth like paint. Maybe their trying nowadays to reproduce the accident of homeowner sandblasted or over pressure powerwashed raised grain clapboard.
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You all need to get out more often as there are many very expensive ways to side with vinyl and trim so as to enhance all...You get what you pay for here to(o)...High end vinyl can cost two to four times more than the $50 a square low end stuff...Be honest...Have any of you seen the high end stuff with real trim verses j channel?
Near the stream, getting splashed as usual by the sandbox bully,
J
*Steve,You've got us all laughing again over the to or not to too...I posted that post with my junky Toshiba laptop that has tooo have the keyboard replaced once a year and everything else internal...Thanks for the tip, near to( ) the stream,J
*Some vinyl window manufacturers now build their windows with integral 'j'channel. Beats the heck out of 'J' channel that almost looks good at the corners.
*coldn't you use corner boards (window and door trim too) with a rabbit that would act the same as the j mold you object to? might trap water, huh.
*My own house is about one half western red cedar and one half tattered felt flapping in the wind. (Honey, could you go out there with some more of those green cap nails, our house is really looking tacky.) I would definitely prefer that blowng off felt to vinyl. Just one mans opinion about his own shack.
*I am the process of building an upper-mid end traditional styled house for my wife and I and want it to be as maintenance free as possible. It will be brick on 3 sides (with some nice brick detail) and, yes vinyl, on the back. My only dilemma is how to do the cornice in a maintenance free manner and retain some classic details. I think I got the fascia "covered" and think I can live with vinyl soffit, but I want significant cornice mouldings in the area of the freeze. A vinyl siding wholesaler in my area sells a coupla' styles of vinyl crown-like moldings, but I can't figure out how I can miter the corners and not have them separate as the vinyl expands and contracts. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated, or if anyone knows of any web sites that show some good vinyl work let me know.TIA
*If the shoe fits...
*Sir,When I think of brick I think of dark earthtones... red, brown, etc. I alsothink of natural mortar joints. Vinyldoesn't do so well with dark earthtones.My first thought when I saw your postwas... Red brick after five or ten yearsexposure, faded to the lovely color of...pepto-bismol.
*There are vinyl "siding" bricks as well as stone and shakes. Many of these products are very attractive, heavy duty and realistic in appearance. They are also very expensive, anywhere from 200 - 300 bucks per square (100 sf). One of the original manuf. of these type products is "Nailite". The price of 2-3 bucks per square foot is quite less than brick veneer at 10 -12 bucks per square foot and it will never need tuckpointed nor will it crack from moisture & freezing/thaw cycles.Pete Draganic
*MattG:Here in VA it is common for the siding contractor to cover the wood rakes, fascias, and freeze with aluminum to make them maintenance free. I will have them do this with the rakes and fascias while installing vinyl soffit. But I want some dental molding on the freeze boards, and they cannot cover dentals. I have been looking into Fypon, CDM, etc. for the freeze board/dental/crown options. They do require painting, but the paint should last longer than on wood. I have also seen PVC boards for trim, but these also need paint. Why brick on three sides? Is it a budget item or some wall design that doesn't lend itself to brick easily? I have seen one house here that was brick three sides and vinyl on one, but the vinyl side was the gable end with the garage doors. It just looked unfinished, and the cost of additional brick should not have been too much because the doors were a major part of the wall.A friend has a two side brick and two side Hardie Plank siding house that was a compromise of budget and has decent looks.I am building an all sides brick house, but will have vinyl siding on the dormers. I haven't seen brick dormers, but my framer asked me if I was having brick on the dormers. I am bricking all the way to the peaks of the gables on the walls.Frank
*Frank:Thanks for your thoughts. I too, have been thinking about going the Fypon route.Yes, the brick on 3 sides is a budget thing. The projected cost of this house is already astronomical, and I'm barley out of the ground with it.I have gotten a lot of quality building ideas from you all, (and elsewhere) but it all costs money. An aside, is that I have come to the conclusion that many of the builders around here in NC have gotten so use to going the cheap, easy way, that they think it is also the best, right way!Also, most people don't know the difference - just yesterday I was looking at the house going up across the street from my project - probably a $380k house/lot package, all brick, with *cheap* wood windows with no NFRC stickers on em'!Ok, so I could of went with brick on all sides and the $120 each windows. It's all about the tradeoffs we have to make.
*Steve, the j channel is only needed in retro work. all new stuff could be designed to function properly without the need for j's.Blue
*Sign me Blue on that one, Jack!Blue
*I'd be interested in a vinyl brick, especially if it could be layed like real bricks with mortar!Blue
*Frank, they can cover dentils! I covered mine on my last house! It takes a bit of time, but it is really very easy. I simply did it with hand tools. I also create raised panels for under the windows. They were very attractive! It takes about 5 minutes per dentil, to cut out the shape, crisply bend it, and then install it. I used some type of siding caulk to "glue" them to the wood backer blocks. Let's see, 12 detils per hour @ 35$ per hour= $3 per piece. Why would you let a measly little 900$ get in the way of your happiness?Blue
*That's exactly the point of vinyl Lee! I'm agonizing about the type of siding that I will be installing on my new addition. I want the maintenace free effect of siding, but like the look of the LP better. I'm going to use a little brick, and would actually prefer the vinyl windows. I loved the last ones that I put in in my previous residence: air tight, yet easy to operate. I'm also very concerned about rising property values, and being taxed to death. Blue
*Bear:I think your post is a perfect illustration that some of these things are nothing but pure opinion.If I read you right, your saying that brick fades, and it looks nasty after 5 or 10 years? I read this fourm for both information & humor!Further, in my opinion, a dark colored brick house with white trim looks great! Throw in some colored accents like the doors and shutters, and you have a very traditional, classic looking house.OK, so maybe some of you all like the look (or name) of a craftsman style house - which I can respect and appreciate - but it's not the look I want to go home to.
*you sure like to stir things up. I like it, keeps things loose, please, booger on. - yb
*Bob, I'm not kidding! I would seriously like a vinyl brick! If it looks like brick, and is installed with real mortar, it would appeal to me. Lighter, easily cut, and it wouldn't be absorbant, thus less likely to crack.Vinyl sounds like a perfect brick material!I bought a new Benilli, with it's synthetic barrel. My old 1100 is too heavy! I like the new saws, and tools...all plastic. I'm just a man before his times...soon all wood will be used up, and plastic will rule!Blue
*>>Or those horrendous interior glue on the kitchen wall over a base of dark velvet colored "mortar" adhesive.<<Hey Chip! I resemble that remark!In 1972 I put up a "z-brick" wall in my parents' kitchen (an 1893 victorian) that is there to this very day. I think it looks pretty darn good (tounge planted firmly in cheek here). It's all crooked because we snapped no lines, just started gluing the bricks up one at a time till we got to the top. I threaten to rip it out every time I'm home, but Mom swats me away with a broom. She loves her "brick" wall.And I call myself a restoration carpenter. I won't even begin to tell you about the drop ceilings and the cheap paneling...Steve Zerby
*Could the maufacturers be shipping all the 'good' vinyl products to Asia?Just a thought.
*Not anymore!
*Blue:My framer is getting me names & numbers of two cornice contractors. I will contact them and see if they are up to the task and within my pocketbook. Normally the framer installs the freeze boards but I am behind in my job of decision making. But he installs them after standing the wall and before roof sheating. He does like to hang the pine on the gable ends before setting them.Thanks for the info,Frank
*MattG:After re-reading your post & Bear's post, I think he was responding to the original post of vinyl bricks. Bear, is this correct?Frank
*Frank, Bear, & all:I think Frank is right - Bear was referring to the vinyl brick material.Please accept my apology.
*There is an article in the current JLC about metal trim with vinal siding. - yb
*Matt, nice of you to build that house for your wife; is she going to let you live there, too? ; )RE: Vinyl Siding: I just don't like anything that pretends to be something else - whether it's people or siding or countertops. I like what the Italians do with plastic; they treat it like... plastic. They make gorgeous, classy stuff that obviously looks like what it is: plastic. Anyway, I couldn't put vinyl siding on my old house, anyway; it would screw up the insulation properties (ha) of the plaster, etc. So I gotta go with painting. Maybe they should work on ai paintthat lasts for 30 years...Patty
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What kind of trim should I use with vinyl siding?
I am hiring a contractor to build my house. We want low cost & low maintenance, so we are going with vinyl. We specified Wolverine Restoration Classic, which has matte finish & no fake wood grain stamped in it. All J channel will be hidden behind rabbetted trim. We also want low maintenance trim, so the architect specified Fypon , which is ridiculously expensive (1"x8"x16' $136).
Alternatives are
* backprimed & painted wood, (pine, cedar, redwood, pressure treated, plywood) - good looks on day 1, but hi maintenance.
* aluminum clad wood - good looks, but expansion & contraction may make oil can effect
* fiber cement - good looks, probably less maintenance than wood, any downside?
* vinyl trim from the siding manufacturers - generally cheesy looking.
What will these options cost? Any recommendations on what to use?
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bradley,
Have your vinyl siding contractor drill the nail holes in the aluminum he uses to wrap or clad the wood. This allows the metal to expand and contract without "oil canning" I beleive my siding man uses a 1/8" bit to pre-drill all the aluminum as he nails it up.
*I found another article on the JLC CD rom that I just got in the mail today that is great: "Traditional Trim in Vinyl and Aluminum" 7/93.
*Patty:Not sure if she is gonna let me live there or not! Right now, she is on vacation with other family while I stay behind and oversee the bricklayer... he better show up!
*Bradley:Some vinyl siding suppliers have "upscale" vinyl trim. One in our area called Alside has things like 3 piece corner posts that come fluted or plain and some other nice touches.When you say "oil canning" are you referring to the denting caused by expansion and contraction? Is this a problem with clad windows? I know it happens on large expanses of aluminum like fascia, but does window cladding have enough surface area to expand and contract enough to have a problem?I would like to wrap my fascias in aluminum or vinyl but am concerned that when the gutter guy nails up the gutters they will be in effect pinning the wrap material to the subfascia and expansion/contraction will not be allowed for. Anyone have any thoughts on that?
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If vinyl siding looked like brick, would you use it? If not, why not?
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Matt,
I have never seen oil canning in person, but I imagine the surface is buckling when the metal expands but is pinned in several places. Brian 3006 has a good idea about drilling expansion holes. Slots would be even better. I expect that without them, you would get oil canning behind the gutter. But if it is behind the gutter, you won't see it.
With gutters, make sure no water gets behind the gutter, between the fascia & the gutter. It rotted out my all wood fascia on my 30 yr old house. Now I have drip edge, new fascia, & new gutters.
Why don't windows oil can? Marvin & Weathershield use extruded aluminum, fit into grooves in the underlying wood. I wonder if Pella, who uses sheet aluminum, might oil can. Maybe lengths are short enough that it doesn't happen.