To spray or not to spray, that is my ?
I’ve got all new trim (built-up base, chair rail, 4 piece crown molding) in my front parlor with a nice built-in bank of bookshelves. All raw wood and exquisitely prepped and ready for paint.
My room is already thoroughly dust-proofed from the rest of the house, the floors are well protected and the window casings are done and can be easily masked. The drywall is primed and ready for wallpaper and finish paint.
This weekend I started working on the wifey to get her motivated to help me paint everything, I was just planning on brushing a coat of oil-based primer and two coats of BM Regal Semi-Gloss Latex (AquaGlo). Since she was looking down the barrel of several days of painting, she quickly brainstormed the idea of letting me buy a sprayer so I could do it all by myself. What a sweetheart.
Our friend recently bought a house and hired someone to come spray the trim before she and friends rollered the walls. The method worked out good for her and her trim looks awesome (uh… that doesn’t sound right).
Since I have so much to do, and I have plenty of future jobs (I own a rental house, and we’re eventually redoing our entire house), would it make good sense for me to buy a sprayer? Is it even practical for me to attempt to spray this one room or should I just get cracking with the brush?
If spraying is the answer, what equipment should I be looking at? It’d be for interior use only (I hire out any ladder work). If I spray, should I change the finish schedule? (I was thinking a fast-dry shellac-based primer such as BIN, and then two coats of latex and do it all in one day)
Or should I tell the wifey to suck it up and pick up the brush?
Replies
Probably woudda had it done by now with the brush instead of planning how to somehow save time with a sprayer?
For my project, time is not my main concern. How much better of a finish can I get with a sprayer versus with a brush?
rasher,
There is a learning curve with spraying equipment.. Trim isn't conducive for quick time savings and a place to practice on.. big flat walls to start with then when you've master the technique trim is fine..
Type of equipment depends on what you are spraying.. I use a HVLP gun with a pressure pot, with other paint I might use a airless sprayer.
Brand loyalty is a real bone of contention and what the pros use seldom has a great bearing on what is best..
I couldn't agree with you more. I am a finish guy myself and I have both systems. HVLP I use in the shop for my lacquers. Latex I should add, cannot be sprayed from the HVLP as someone has said. You can't thin the latex and have it maintain all its binders and so on. Pretty much come out like a whitewash coat.
I use the airless ( titan ) on job sites for big areas and trim if there is a lot. The airless is a big investment. The results are far superior to brushing by a long shot. Your cleanup time and prep work in the area are considerable. Should take that into consideration.
You should maybe have a look at the turbine systems. They too are expensive but can be used just about anywhere with great portability.
Tough call
Gary
Latex I should add, cannot be sprayed from the HVLP as someone has said. You can't thin the latex and have it maintain all its binders and so on. Have to disagree, now I assume when you say latex you are including acrylic paint into that mix since latex is hardly used any more. I have no problem spraying acrylic with my HVLP turbine gun just sprayed a gallon of it no problem just need the proper size tip and needle set a lacquer tip is too small.Wallyo
The paint I sprayed is called "Waterborne Satin Impervo 314". I have no idea what it is made of except for the fact that it is cleaned up and thinned with water. It is described on BM's website as such: "A premium quality 100% acrylic latex enamel..." It says right on the manufacturer's spec sheet that thinning with a small a amount of clean water is acceptable. I don't know what else to tell you, it sprayed out awesome and looks great. Hopefully it doesn't fall off next week.
Rasher I am with you on this one I was replying to Hartland who was saying latex cannot be sprayed.Take some photos and post them.Wally
Wally
I guess I owe you an apology. You are right about waterborne finish. I was, when I answered that post some time ago referring to what as you say the old latex paints. I didn't have access to turbine HVLP's way back when I started. Just the standard suction air system used in body shops and you couldn't spray the latex from those guns. I tried and failed. I have on one occasion since then used the turbine system and found it spayed OK but was awkward to manoeuvre. I was also informed by the accu spray people that this system could spray road tar with the proper nozzle. I had no reason to argue.
Technology has come a very long way in just a short time. My experience to date has pretty much been with catalized lacquer. It is very durable and easy to use. It will be a long time before I am convinced that waterborne finishes will be as hard as the catalized lacquers. Still old school I guess. If it ain't broke....
Sorry if I mislead you. Not my intent. Should have thought out of the little box I'm in.
Gary
would it make good sense for me to buy a sprayer?
no.
Is it even practical for me to attempt to spray this one room
no.
or should I just get cracking with the brush?
yes.
I was thinking a fast-dry shellac-based primer such as BIN,
spraying BIN ?
you will only do that once. think tip clog times 10. complete nightmare.
carpenter in transition
do you have a decent air compressor? if so go daown to harbor frieght,they have a suction type gun,has a built in pressure reg. and sells for about 20.00 .thin your paint a little with flo trol and start squirting.now to tell you the truth when your done ,clean the gun ,but after latex has went thru a gun i don't trust it to not spit out #### when i'm painting a car. so at 20. i write on it latex only or toss it.
the problem with a airless is,it put s the paint on big time and if your not well adversed in sprying you will be brushing all the runs out. larry
if a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
Are you talking about the cheap-o HVLP kit that goes for $39.99 as shown here: http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=93305I have a Makita MAC700 hotdog compressor that's rated for 3.3 cfm delivered at 90 psi. So I don't know if it's really got the balls for this thing.
well i don't think you have to big of comp.lol but it might handle it if you stop every couple minutes and let it catch up. you will be spraying in the 40 psi range with a standard gun. the one you linked to would probably be fine,there is a couple on here for under 20 that would probably work also.i didn't see the one i usally buy,i think i still have one in the box so i'll check for numbers.
with your compressor i think you would really push it with a true hvlp as they use lots of air,but at low pressure [High Volume,Low Pressure].larryif a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
Actually the air volume requirements don't differ enough between HVLP and suction guns to make a difference(suction: 9-15cfm@35psi, HVLP: 12-16@25psi, or so...). The difference is in how that pressure is reduced at the nozzle in HVLP yet still delivering the same paint volume with less overspray.
Either way, you need a compressor that can provide more than enough cfm to maintain tank pressure above reg pressure during use. Most small compressors cannot, and if you try to "take breaks to let it recover" you're just chasing your tail. Every time the pressure drops below reg pressure the spray pattern goes in the toilet and you're spattering all over the place, etc. Oh joy.
And even brand new, the only cars that get painted with $20 Harbor Freight guns are demo derby bound.
well i gotta take a swing at that last line. i started my bodywork/painting career in about 1968. back in those days paint was pretty simple,enamel,lacquer. take your choice and if you said clearcoat ,someone would go ,huh?
back then there were only 2 paint guns that you would use,binks and develabis[?]they cost about 160-200.sharp came out with a gun in the 70's but we all laughed and went on,the sharp ended up proving itself to be a good gun once it got a foothold.
now not a lot changes in the early 80's but by 90's everything is getting clearcoat,wonderful stuff, started changing things alot. but in the spray gun department things had went wild,all the patents were gone for the good guns and the japs decided to buy themselves a binks gun and go home and duplicate it. and they did a fine job,parts even interchage. the price on those guns are now down in the 20.00 range and will probably outspray the old origs. with no problem.
now you didn't say if your a auto painter or what and i know that there are a lot of nice gravity hvlp guns out there and you can spend 2-500.00 on them.i own a couple sharps hvlp's. but i can go to harbor freight buy 1 of those 20.00 guns and do absolutly anything you do with a high dollar gun,except conform to cailf. air emmissions.
but i grew up with these guns and feel comfortable with a gun that sucks the paint out at 50 lbs,if you have entered the field since 90 you have probably never used one except prime.
you may still call me a hack painter,thats fine by me,at 52 i'm pretty much retired from it except occassoinaly i get a call from someone restoring a old car to show. i tell em on the phone i start at 8500! which isn't that high from what i hear. but i'll never tell em i'm shooting there car with a 20.00 gun. :] larryif a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
Well my last line was more just a smarta$$ comment then a literal statement of fact, but surely with all your experience you've seen the difference in results between guns. In addition to solid colors I've done a ton of custom painting-flames, flake, candies, pearls(heck most factory colors these days are pearl anyway), multi-color jobs, and the consistency is just not there with a low end gun -consistency on the same job, or from one to the next.
I'm not saying you need to spend $500 on a gun, but $150 Devilbiss is 10 times more useful. No mottling/very even and controllable spray pattern, no air/material leaks, and they can take repeated cleanings without developing leaks or becoming stiff(usually both).
You can do decent work with a low end gun, but you'll spend more time fiddling with it and fixing the oops than shooting. Personally, that's not for me. I'd rather shoot it once and get paid.
IMHO: Spend it now, or spend it later. It doesn't matter whether you're painting a car or staining a wall unit. YMMV
Edited 3/26/2008 11:18 am ET by deadman1
rest assured that when i'm shooting a pearl or a 3 stage factory paint i don't use my harbor frieght 20. gun.when paint starts costing in the 1000's for 1 car,i get my best out and then sweat bullits that some damn moth doesn't decide to make the car a landing strip.
when painting on a car ,murphys law applies times 5.
your point on fiddling with a gun is correct,but with a cheapo ,you toss it,keep the cup for a mxing cup and start fresh. larryif a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
Seems to me one's better off buying a decent gun and keeping it, than throwing out $20+shipping a few times.
Besides, paint suppliers give away stacks of mix-n-measure cups.
I'll send you some mothballs for your spray booth! ;)
Just reporting back for all of you naysayers:I bought the Wagner HVLP conversion sprayer from http://www.gleempainting.com for $125. I paid $25 for 2-day shipping and got it right on time. Hooked it up to my Makita MAK700 hotdog compressor and gave it a go.Saturday, I sprayed 3/4 gallon of SW alkyd primer for wood and walls. I panicked early because it was spitting pretty bad, but then I thinned the primer out a bit more. The primer is VERY thick, thicker than the latex paint. Thinned with mineral spirits about 1:10, maybe 1:12 ratio. The stock gun with the #3 tip struggled (probably could have used the #4 tip, about $60 extra), but I managed to get the primer up and it leveled out real nice. Cleanup took about 2 minutes of spraying solvent through the gun until it ran clear and then wiping everything off. The whole job took 3 1/2 hours. There is no way that the wife and I, working together, could have brushed on that much primer as nicely in the same time. Instead, she got the garden and flower beds cleaned out.Sunday, I sprayed 1/2 gallon of BM Waterborne Impervo over the primer. Added the mfr's recommended amount of Floetrol (8oz per gallon) and about 10 ounces of water, a ratio of about 1:12. Stirred well. Took me about 3 hours to get it up. I may have thinned it a bit much because half way through I noticed some sags and drips forming. I stopped what I was doing, took out the brush and brushed everything out and that fixed that. Everything dried out looking fine. Again, about 3 minutes to clean everything up. Instead of helping, Wifey baked me a pie and a pot roast.
This morning, I took the same paint mix, moved the gun around a bit faster, and lightly back brushed as I went along. The paint (with the Floetrol), seems to be leveling out real nice with no apparent brush marks. Took me 2 hours to paint and 3 minutes to clean up. Now I'm done.
Folks, there is absolutely no way I could have gotten as nice a finish on all of that trim in ~9 hours of work. The only problem I see is that this awesome finish required even more time to be spent filling and caulking, because everything shows.Impressions:
The Wagner HVLP gun is some of the smartest money I've spent in awhile. I HATE trim painting and now it's not such misery.The BM Waterborne Impervo is GREAT paint. We'd always used the Aqua-Glo for trim and it seems to me that the Impervo levels out better and glosses up real nice. Cleanup is more difficult, it seems a bit stickier on my fingers.One of the ways I've avoided having to do much touch-up is I hung all of my trim raw, caulked and filled, and THEN primed and painted two-coats. I don't have a real good place to shop-apply finishes, so it was just easier for me to paint in place. I really don't think I'll have much brush touch-up at all.We'll tape off the trim and then cut-brush and roll the wall and ceiling colors the old fashioned way. This way, I didn't have to worry about overspray too much. To be honest, though, the HVLP is awesome when it comes to controlling overspray. I'd feel pretty confident in the future taping off walls and floors with 12-24" tape/plastic and then spraying trim last, the paint really does go where you want it.I was surprised how easy cleanup was. I've used airbrushes in the past and it seemed like it'd take forever to clean 'em. This gun only took a few wipes and a good long spray with clean solvent.The HVLP was definitely the way to go to paint the built-ins. Lots of nooks and crannies that I'd just spray a bunch of paint into and then brush it back out. Slick.In conclusion, I encourage anyone thinking about it to go ahead and give the HVLP conversion gun a try. My little Makita compressor worked its butt off, but it managed to push the paint and now the wifey is very pleased.
rasher
The only problem I see is that this awesome finish required even more time to be spent filling and caulking, because everything shows.
And that's always my argument when people say that paint grade is cheaper then stain grade- I will always disagree because of that variable. Sprayed on finish requires some very tedious prep work, time consuming.
You stated that you'd spray your trim first and then paint the walls. All the painters that I know will do all the prep work on the trim, then give it the required coats of paint followed with the wall paint. These guys are usually spraying lac or oil and the walls are latex, maybe there thinking is that the latex will more easily clean up off the trim should they get any on it.
Glad to here that everything went well.
Doug
I am a finish carpenter in toronto, our painters recently sprayed some trim on a new house (dentil crown, a painters nightmare) and a coat of primer and two finish coats has it looking amazing. he sprayed all the doors in the house in one go.. and they look amazing. he used a sprayer that has wheels and sucks out of the paint can directly, no compressor needed, I think finishing with latex is a bad idea as it won't hold up as well as oil will. i know not of paint, just wood, maybey someone else has experience in this department??
it looks beautiful. have fun.
clinkard
Those are airless sprayers or we used to call them big red after one of the better known comerical jobs. Looks deceptively easy to do, it's not!
If you just have to experiment then go to the rental yard an give it a try.
But for a first try???????????? Takes some practice. Lots of blow back.
Get the right tip 313 and gonna have to thin it.
Practice on some thing outside and and and oh just buy some new brushes.
My limited experience with sprayers ( and I own a semi-decent one that I paid 600 clams for 6 years ago; but havent seen in 3 years cause a friend borrowed it and I'm afraid of it anyway....) is that it makes for a PHENOMENAL finish, like velvet, on walls and trim, but good luck touching anything up. You simply can't put a brush, roller, pad or any other ### thing to the wall after and not have it stick out like an infected splinter. ;)
Either way, for one room, its a moot point. Brush it baby. Buy the sprayer at the beginning of the next big job...
Bing
I might be in the minority here but I think spaying a finish looks bad on woodwork. I like some brush strokes in the finish. It just looks right.
I can and have spray painted most everything. On metal or plastic it looks right. I exspect a mirror like surface. Like a car. Brush strokes wouldn't look right.
Most of the finishes I've seen sprayed on wood work have orange peel texture. It just looks awfull to me.
But on wood work I like to see nice uniform brush strokes in the finish.
I also like oil based trim paint. I like the way it flows out.
It goes pretty fast once you set up and get painting.
I guess I'm a traditonalist.
Make sure the temperature of the room is pretty warm 70 degrees + and use a good quality brush. I think sprayed trim looks gorgeous, but most people wouldnt notice...