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Discussion Forum

topsoil, save it or get new.

dockelly | Posted in General Discussion on May 31, 2008 03:56am

I had 40 yards of fill delivered yesterday, I plan on raising my lot , 8″, another 4″ topsoil, and laying sod. The topsoil that’s there is very rich, dark to about6-7″. I thought I’d rent a skidsteer and scrape that away, move in fill and replace topsoil.

I’m worried about the trees, the roots close to the surface will be destroyed. Anyone have experience with the effect on the trees? I’ll just get new topsoil if the trees will die.

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  1. Pelipeth | May 31, 2008 04:05am | #1

    The trees will die.

  2. junkhound | May 31, 2008 04:06am | #2

    What kind of trees, etc.  Why would you destroy the roots?  Leave that area undisturbed, put in a curbing, etc.

    You could ask over at arborist.com; first reply will probably be "hire a certified arborist": <G>

    1. dockelly | May 31, 2008 04:11am | #3

      some are cedar, some are pine, there are few trees on the island, with all the maintenance free building that goes on.  I'd like to keep the trees, even if It means burying all that good topsoil.

  3. User avater
    BillHartmann | May 31, 2008 04:11am | #4

    You are already in trouble.

    Trees don't like to have fill on their roots. At least not close up.

    I think that in some cases you can put in vertical tiles to get air down to them.

    http://lancaster.unl.edu/hort/Articles/2003/TreeRoots.shtml

    "Of all the soil disturbances previously mentioned, grade changes and their impact on tree roots may be the least understood. Since roots are near the surface and depend on oxygen from the atmosphere, raising or lowering the soil level around an established tree can have serious impact. Scraping the soil away from a tree removes or injures important absorbing and transport roots, eliminates nutrient-rich topsoil, and exposes other roots to desiccating (drying) conditions. And if heavy equipment is used during the grading process, additional tree injury occurs because of soil compaction. Instead of lowering the grade, valuable trees might be protected by raising the grade elsewhere. If soil removal becomes absolutely necessary, grade changes should be limited to areas outside the branch spread of trees.

    Soil fills which raise the grade around trees are equally harmful. Soil additions reduce the oxygen supply to roots, compact the soil, and often raise the water table. Soil additions six inches or less will probably not harm "fill-tolerant" trees (Colorado spruce, catalpa, silver maple, green ash Eastern cottonwood, swamp white oak, river birch, red maple, black willow) especially if the fill material is good topsoil, high in organic matter and loamy in texture. But, irreparable damage will result if as little as two inches of clay soils are used as fill, particularly around "fill-intolerant" trees (white fir, red oak, white pine, linden, white oak, scotch pine, sugar maple, serviceberry). If fills deeper than six inches will occur, it is still best to limit those grade changes to areas outside the branch spread of the tree. "

    googling -grading tree roots-

    Might need to get a local arborist that can give some recomendations based on the trees and soil.

    Might need to do it layers over a couple of years.

    .
    .
    A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
    1. dockelly | May 31, 2008 04:33am | #5

      Oh Oh!  So, you want 40 yards of fill? 

      Thanks for the info, I'll start away from the trees and see how much is left when I'm done, probably need at least 10 under and against the house.  I could spread alot amongst the bamboo that's growing out of control, if it kills it, I'll have solved that problem.

       

      Thanks again.

      1. User avater
        Ted W. | May 31, 2008 05:03am | #6

        There's bamboo growing in New Jersey?--------------------------------------------------------

        Cheap Tools at MyToolbox.netSee some of my work at AWorkOfWood.com

        1. dockelly | May 31, 2008 05:34am | #7

          tons of it, I tried to kill it with roundup, no luck.  I had to gut it down to ground level and cut it into pieces with demo blade in sawzall.  Like slicing up a lasagna. Still have loads left at the back of the property.

          1. User avater
            Ted W. | May 31, 2008 05:36am | #8

            I always thought bamboo was a sub-tropical....

            Oh wait. I was thinking palm.

            Nevermind. :)--------------------------------------------------------

            Cheap Tools at MyToolbox.netSee some of my work at AWorkOfWood.com

          2. dockelly | May 31, 2008 11:17pm | #14

            GOOGLE HARDY PALMS, SOME CLAIM TO SURVIVE AS FAR NORTH AS MICHIGAN.  Caps lock was on, didn't mean to yell:)

          3. User avater
            Ted W. | May 31, 2008 11:27pm | #15

            Haa haha... I don't believe  you typed as much telling me the cap-lock was on as it would to just re-type it.

            But anyway, not to worry. My ears will stop ringing pretty soon. :)--------------------------------------------------------

            Cheap Tools at MyToolbox.netSee some of my work at AWorkOfWood.com

          4. dockelly | Jun 01, 2008 04:05am | #17

            yeah, but where's the fun in that.

          5. User avater
            Ted W. | Jun 01, 2008 05:25am | #18

            I was expecting something like "I'm using an old keyboard and the reverse gear doesn't work". I mean after all, this is breaktime. :)--------------------------------------------------------

            Cheap Tools at MyToolbox.netSee some of my work at AWorkOfWood.com

          6. OldGuy | May 31, 2008 01:47pm | #10

            --tons of it, I tried to kill it with roundup, no luck. I had to gut it down to ground level and cut it into pieces with demo blade in sawzall. Like slicing up a lasagna. Still have loads left at the back of the property.--Roundup will kill it. Wait until full flower and then spray. If the patch is thick, repeat next year on the new growth. Once again in full flower. In thick growth, the spray doesn't land on the young stems hiding close to the ground.Knotweed (bamboo) propagates through rhysomes (sp). I had a patch pretty much under control and then did some dirt work which ended up spreading pieces of the root around. Now I'm starting all over on the kill process. Had about 90% kill last year.I learned in pesticide school the knotweed grows so fast early on n the season that the chemical doesn't make it to the roots. In flower, the stems have stopped growing and are sucking nutrition down t the root system.Cheers,
            Paul

          7. dockelly | May 31, 2008 04:03pm | #11

            Thanks Paul,

             

            Never saw anything flowering, must be subtle.  I'll look for it.

             

            Kevin

          8. User avater
            coonass | Jun 01, 2008 12:57am | #16

            Paul,Knotweed is not a true bamboo. When true bamboo flowers it dies.Don't know which one Doc has but bamboo has slender leaves, knotweed's are wide. Keep either one mowed close and they die.KK

      2. peteshlagor | May 31, 2008 05:39am | #9

        Terraces.

         

    2. frenchy | May 31, 2008 05:34pm | #12

      BillHartmann,

        Good answer. 

  4. jc21 | May 31, 2008 06:28pm | #13

    Ditto on the suggestion for an arborist. Still remember some new homes from my youth (40 years ago) that were lined with CMU's around the base of the trees. Visited a couple of years ago and the trees were still there. A good arborist should be able to tell you if a retaining wall of some sort will work and if so, how big it should be.

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