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Did anyone see Tom Brokaw last night talking about the tornados in Ft Worth? Also the discussion on “tornado proof” buildings. FEMA has evidently said that for a “few thousand dollars” a house can be made tornado safe. I live in tornado alley, have for decades, and my skepticsm level is ringing the bell on this one.
I think I could build a house that would – mostly – survive a tornado, and certainly improve the inhabitants chances of survival, but Tornado Proof? That strikes me as saying you can build something idiot proof. And I don’t think you could retrofit or even build that safety in for a “few thousand dollars”.
Any thoughts on all this? Coastal differences? (I see tornados and hurricanes as being similar in some respects [having been through both, thank you]), but what about earthquakes, floods, wildfires, etc.?
Replies
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Lisa,
ITA there is no way any normal house can be made tornado proof for a few thousand bucks. Just plain no way. It's possible they mean the house can be made safer when a tornado passes by. There's no way that any house, even one with concrete walls 4 feet thick could withstand a direct hit by a tornado, though.
Wait, I just thought of one way that a house could be made almost tornado proof. Build it all underground. Even that would be no guarantee of safety should a tornado ride directly over the house.
*Lisa- good question.I don't know if any structure can survive the wind shear produced by a direct hit. Like Luka says, lower profile better chance. We used to take comfort in the "bubble" around big cities but this is two years now with quote unquote freak storms.I guess if I think about my opening statement I know the buildings can be built to weather the storm, but in residential construction you are absolutely right- it's not cost effective- doesn't touch that many people- won't happen.I don't know what the answer is- everything in business is market driven and the market ain't open...
*Lisa, I also don't think it's possible to "tornado proof" a house. But you can dang sure make it a lot more wind resistant. I personally think that wind design is one of the most overlooked elements in modern house design. For instance - In this area it's common to simply nail the roof trusses (or rafters) down to the walls with a couple of nails. This only fastens them to the 2nd top plate. The second top plate is fastened to the 1st top plate with a few gun nails. The 1st top plate is generally tied to the studs and bottom plate with OSB sheathing. But the bottom plate is only fastened to the subfloor and/or band board with a few gun nails. The floor system is just toe nailed to the sill plate, which is bolted to the foundation. In high wind situations, and one of these connections can easily fail. I doubt that many houses are destroyed by a direct hit in a tornado, but by high winds i nearthe tornado. With a little design work and better framing anchorage, the houses might not be blown away as easily. At worst, they might give you a bit more time to seek shelter.
*Ron-Studies that were conducted as a result of damage from Hugo and Andrew support your thoughts. Most of the catostrophic building failure started at the roof. Once the building envelope was compromised the dominoes fell...
*One thing that could be done is to get rid of the nailgun and start hammering by hand. It would cost more for labor, but thats all. Remember my rant a while back about how nailing with a nail gun can leave little gaps all over the place and that the gap could widen and could work apart in some cases ??? This is one of those cases. *ignore the fact that I ran three or four perfectly good sentences into one, and pay attention to the point I'm trying to make.* LOLMuch easier for those dominoes to fall when they have been set up for it in the first place. Cinch those dominoes down a bit, get rid of that gap, and it's a bit harder for them to be toppled.
*Attaboy Luka!
*big tornado or (little tornado)...a lot of the coastal jurisdictions are getting tougher and tougher...as far as i know, California and Florida (Miami-Dade) lead the country in high wind design requirements..Here in RI, most of the State is in the Coastal zone so all the construction in that zone is designed for 90 mile/hour.... more and more of the coastal towns are requiring PE review and stamps for compliance...there are systems and products readily available and designed for 110 MPH.. read thru the Simpson catalog on hig wind design for tips...and the underground houses are tornado proof, just that most of them are not truly Underground...mostly earth sheltered.. even so.. they will withstand most hits....especially on the lower end of the tornado/hurricane scale...the upper end is pretty tough..but it is done all the time.... the occupied observatory on Mount Washinton withstands 200 mph winds....so, it can be done,... if you design for it.. and if another house doesn't get dropped on you...Mike
*"AUNTIE EM! AUNTIE EM!"
*doug, you drag queen , just click your heels three times.....and watch out for flying outhouses......
*My daughter, an Army captain aviator, Apache pilot, is stationed in Korea at this time. She was TDY this week in Fort Worth for an Apache conference, when, guess what? In a high rise hotel downtown, she heard it coming and hid in the bath tub, door closed. After it left, she came out and all of the room's windows had been sucked out. Only a few shards of glass on the rug, she said. Rest all gone. She's a curious type, so she went down, and we saw her on the Weather Channel coverage. Screwed up this morning, though, 'cause she left the area for bagels and couldn't get back in -- police blockade -- until she found an Army vet cop to let her through. Now in Oregon waiting for the flight after the once she missed. Mama asks, "Will they court-martial her?" I say, "No, but spanking won't work, either. I'd already tried that." Hard for an old chopper pilot like me to think other than if they wanted conformists, they'd go after them. Otherwise, they'd better accept a few rebels who don't mind flying things with the aerodynamics of rocks.
*WOW! Glad your daughter is ok.
*Hi everyone-I'm writing from east-central Arizona, an area that from late winter thru early summer can end up between powerful high pressure to the south and substantial lows sweeping thru the four corners to the north. This creates a steep pressure gradient that causes winds, ie. masses of air, to sweep through from the south and west. These winds are bent, turned, funnelled and just generally intensified by the juxtaposition of moutains and treeless high plains. It is not unusual to have a month or more of daily winds blowing in the 40's and gusting into the 60's. Two or three years ago the local airport recorded straight-line winds blowing for hours in the 70's and gusting to 100. Beside fraying everybody's nerves, these weeks of wind put one of the mind that wind is the way we experience "Big Nature" around here. Now, cyclonic winds of twice this magnitude are a totally different thing. So, seemingly people who live in tornado alley might realize that tornados are the way they experience "Big Nature," or in other words, the regional weather danger, and spec. into their homes a modified interior (windowless) room that was designed to survive events that would obliterate the remainder of the house. This space need not have any storage, it only need be a laundry room sheathed on both sides, glued and nailed (I'd use ring-shanks,) with 1" plywood. On the interior, screw an armor of 14 gauge sheetmetal and for good measure, cover this with another layer of half in. 5-ply. No matter what type of floor system the rest of the house has, this pod should be mounted on a monolith of 4 or 5 yards, say 12 to 15000 lbs. The wall anchors should engage the entire wall assembly just like the Simpson ties the yard never carries.If this survival pod were included in the design process from the outset, I can't see why it couldn't be built for an additional $6-8000, or about the cost of some kitchen upgrades.
*Mike-I am not a drag queen. Just because if prefer ruby slippers and matching bra and thong...click click click...there's no place like South Beach...there's no place like South Beach...
*6-8000 is not much to save lives. Thanks for the input.
*Tom Brokaw's job has the same prerequisites as the presidency. IE, he's a lying sack of crap. It's conceivable its not his intent but, lies, damn lies, and statistics. The penchant for newscasters to spout statisics and information from prejudiced sources as if they were accurate damns them to a professional life of lying.The bomb proof room in the house is an idea with merit especially in tornado alley.joe d
*I had exactly this discussion with a friend of mine who is a structrual engineer. We live near the New Madrid fault in Arkansas and a few years ago they passed a law that all public buildings had to be designed to handle the inevitable quake, and have to have the structural design done by a qualified engineer (not just an architect).A by-product of "quake" design is that buildings also withstand the high winds associated with tornadoes and hurricanes. No building is going to survive a "direct hit" -- it's just not possible. However, the "pods" or "vaults" that are being built within some homes now (similar to what was outlined above) will. Texas A&M pioneered this design. You can get design specs from their website. Basically the room is within but "isolated" from the rest of the house (floor, walls, ceiling).Someone mentioned the Simpson catalog which is what my friend showed me. Roof trusses have to be attached with "hurrican straps", corners have to be attached to plates with brackets, you need the sill plate attached every 4 ft.I saw a house nearby last year that was simply pushed off the foundation. They saved the house -- just moved it. In my new house I'm considering adding tie rods which will be embeded in the footings and extend to the sill plate. But a house with a "chopped up" floor plan probably wouldn't need this.I think for about $2000 you can take care of the high wind problems. Building a safe zone within the house will cost more.
*More than likely, the news cast was about a new breed of company that makes and installs "storm rooms" or what ever they call them. I read a story a while back. Basically an interrior structure built out of concrete or block that is tied to a deeper/stronger than norm foundation and can with stand tornado speed winds. I think the average estimated cost was about 8K for new construction. They go in and build this room , then the rest of the home is built arround it. Nothing more than a wind tested closet. Seems like a good idea. In Pgh, we're still talking about the tornado that came over the city 2 years ago! Even though it could NEVER happen here! Had enough tornado's in my 2 years in Tx. Jeff
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Hi Everyone,
Check out the FEMA web site http://www.fema.gov.tsfs01.htm for tornado 'safe room' construction plans now available online. Also FHB issue 120.
I believe Brokaw was referring to these 'rooms' not entire buildings. The couple of thousand dollars for construction by a DIY is pretty much in line.
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Doug -
I read several reports after hurricance Andrew about construction practices in Florida. Sems every engineer in the country wanted to go down there and poke around, then write up a report.
Some of the highlights I remember:
Plywood with one gun nail in the top edge, and one gun nail in the bottom edge of each truss.
A 40' foundation wall with no anchor bolts in it.
Shingles with only one or 2 staples in them.
Plywood that was stapled on, where only one leg of the staple hit the truss below.
Can't remember any more off hand............
*Yep. Same thing I'm thinking of.
*Lisa: He may have been refering to the type of article that was in concrete construction about a month after the tornados that went thru the Okl. City area last year. The article was about pre-fab and cast in place concrete walk in closets. The closets are just that except they double as tornado shelters for the family. A steel door & frame is used in lieu of a wooden one. The article had a picture of total destruction of several city blocks but in the middle of all the debris stood the closet/shelter undamaged. The family survived without a scratch but their house was gone. According to this article the concrete closet will add a couple of thousand dollars to the cost of a new home. If I remember correctly the closet was approx. 6 ft. sq. Ron.
*Around here, I've seen a few people pouring a room under their porch slabs. They form the walls just like it's a basement, then pour a concrete slab over the top. That would make a heck of a storm shelter, I guess. Is this common in other parts of the country ?
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I think that Sand Lady was on the right track with her posting but I've found that the better sites to visit for "safe rooms" are http://www.fema.gov/mit/tsfs02.htm (this is the 2nd edition of how to build safe rooms with the plans, photos, specifications, etc.
If you want to know more about the original testing done by Texas Tech. Univ. and more than you'd ever need to know about wind, flying wood studs, etc. visit http://www.wind.ttu.edu/index.html.
I plan on putting one of these in our house in central Texas. Better safe than sorry?
*1)How come only the United States gets tornados?2)I think 4' concrete walls ought to be good enough. I understand that tornado wind speedsreach up to 200 mph. Airplanes can withstand this but they have good design.3) There is also the problem of objects like 2 X 4s and cows (pre-leather wrapped hamburger containers) flying thru the air [or with the air] at 200 mph smashing into your house. That is a problem.
*Well, this some good response. Yes, Tom did talk about the "safe rooms" but also about how FEMA was suggesting changing garage doors and using only laminated glass in windows, plus some other stuff I don't recall right now. And yes, a lot of the problems attributed to Andrew (and tornados) has to do with inadequate codes, or more heinously, unenforced codes. I expect a lot of new construction to start having safe rooms built from the get go, and for older homes - well, that is why we have basements in this part of the country - our formothers weren't dumb. But why should we only make one little room (that will likely get packed to the gills with old clothes, bowling balls, christmas ornaments, and Aunt Ida's figurines) safe? What could we do, in design or in technique, to make the whole house sturdier?Quite frankly, I don't think there is a way to build a conventional house to withstand a direct hit. But a near miss, well, maybe. I figure this consideration just makes one more reason to give up on stick framing for exterior wall - mass, mass, and more mass. Why not adapt commercial techniques to residental - poured/stacked/tilt-up walls, prestress roof (you can then use it for gardening, recreation, pasturage, autoshop, professional wrestling, or whatever), with a clearspan interior, frame the walls up however you like, change them whenever you need.Here is a site forwarded to me by another BTer. I think they are kinda cool, if not your run of the mill suburb...
*Why only the US? Well, other places get them too, but not so often. It's geography - very large, broad flat plains, with a potential for mixing lots of hot moist air with lots of cool dry air. Siberia would get them if it warmed up some (global warming anyone?), Australia would get them if it cooled down some (next ice age?). I expect that the trailer park density also has a great deal to do with it. So we should start shipping our trailers to Russia, heheheh.Double your airspeeds for tornados. Good thing they are so small in diameter...but still, for a natural disaster, they aren't so bad, they don't sneak up on you like earthquakes....
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Yeah, Florida has a lot of the answers for torando proofing homes. But here in California we have some answers too, as some of the same techinques for strengthening homes.
Simpson tie downs on the rafters/trusses;
Plywood clips (so simple, so effective)
Shear walls of 3/4" particle board or ply.
Bolt downs on foundations and bearing walls from the foundation to the rafters.
All of this helps.
*Tornadoes do very strange things. My parents had a waterspout come in off the Pacific a few years ago, and take about six squares of roofing off a flat roof, down to the plywood. It was just as if a giant end mill had taken a light cut off the building. Ten feet from the bare plywood, the eucalyptus pods on the roof were undisturbed. Go figure.-- J.S.
*If I remember correctly from many months back, I believe our "down under" correspondent, Mark Cadioli, indicated that they were required to use threaded rod from "plate to plate". Something about requiring a design target of 60 m/sec (which I roughly figured on all my fingers and toes as around 130mph). Don't think he mentioned the spacing of the rods, however. It does seem like a steel rod in tension would certainly beat toe nailed studs, and probably even the StrongTies. From my recent purchase of threaded rod at the steel yard, it would not be a cheap solution, however. (Humm, don't recall seeing anything from our Australian contingent recently...). Being in the "wind surfing capital" of at least the Northwest, I figured we got a little wind around here, but in looking at the 250 mph design figure for the Mid-West on one of the web sites cited earlier, I guess that our Gorge winds are just a breeze by comparison, so I guess I can relax on the wind reinforcing front...
*Instead of "threaded rod," why not use aircraft cable? Basic cable can be bought pretty cheaply in bulk, and with some simple hardware and ingenious routing, you could tie most of your structure to the foundation pretty easily. This might be particularly effective for tying the roof ridge to the ground; combined with hurricane straps attaching the rafters/trusses to the top plates, and brackets tying selected studs to the floor, the structure shouldn't "lift" which is the main problem with high winds.
*Crusty - I like your idea, and think it has merit. Maybe you could patent a system, and sell it to Simpson or something ?Maybe the cable could start at the foundation in back, go up through the back wall, up to the ridge, and back down through the front wall. The only problem would be how to connect the cable at the different points, but that's not insurmountable.
*Cabling buildings to the ground over the roof, anchored front and back is a typical Alaskan solution. There are many high wind locations through out AK. Most of the cabled buildings would be modest cabins without poured foundations. These types of buildings could do a OZ flight without them.joe d
*The basic problem is The rafter to top plate connection. Blow that out and the house comes apart. If you read FHB Book on framing roofs, you'll see that the typical roof conection will come apart with only 208 lbs. multiply that times the number of connections and you know your failure point. If your contractor will use connectors instead of nails the strength of the joint goes up dramatically. The strongest connection is either the simpson H7 connector or A lag bolt. Personally I think a lag bolt going from the rafter thru the top plate and into the stud is the way to go. Then lag the stud thru the bottom plate. Assuming a poured wall foundation with proper connection by my calculation, the building will withstand a level 5 tornado, with no structural damage.
*I outlined a simple way to beat truss uplift in the following post. < Ryan C "Need simple way to beat truss uplift" 4/14/00 3:38am>If these instructions were followed for every room in the house, you would have a purt near tornado proof house.You're welcome !!Thank you, thank you. Please, lets try to keep the applause to a minimum.
*Lisa, I don't think you can really compare hurricanes with tornados. Yes there are simularities, notedly the winds, but even they differ. Hurricanes are hugh storms affecting hundreds of miles that can be track for days prior to contact with land. Tornado are generally local. Yes, there are tornados that stay on the ground through several states, but rare. Condition may favor tornados, but there is still no definite time or place for one to set down. At night, without visual sightings, they have been known to evade radar detection. We build to save the house not the owner. The owner is given time to evacuate. Building to withstand 110 mph wind reduces damage in a 150 mph hurricane That's a pretty big storm to be in for 6 to 12 hours. 150 mph is not that big of a tornado. We also build for storm surge hence the stilts. Storm surge is the real killer for a hurricane. We literally tie the roof to the ground with masonry ties from foundation, strapping, shear walls, more rafter strapping,nailing patterns on wall and roof sheeting, even the way the drip edge is applied. In some of the newer homes being built inland from the coastal flood zone "storm rooms" are being place somewhere in the middle of the house. I still don't know if this would help in a tornado. With all the extras the building deparments makes us do for hurricanes, I surprised little "bomb shelters" are not mandatory for Tordado Ally. When you hear the train, you pull back the rug and go underground.
*Still seems to me cost is the greatest factor. Here in the midwest homes have basements. If your home doesn't have a basement around here it's because you are saving on construction costs. If you can afford 6k for a tornado room you can afford the basement...Interestingly, we do not have to design or build for tornado force winds in our residentail building. I suppose the casualties to home and life are too few and far between to force the issue. When the costs from losses become great enough change will come...
*I heard a story this afternoon oni All Things Consideredon NPR concerning FEMA's search for storm shelter standards. They were testing a reinforced concrete roof structure by dropping automobilies on it with a crane from (I believe) fifty feet up. The reporter said there was no visible damage to the roof.Rich Beckman
*ICF construction with fabricated steel trusses bolted to the walls would be a good place to start. A direct hit will do a lot of damage but with luck your stuff will still be inside.
*Lisa, many years ago, I worked as a "disaster worker" on a neighborhood devastated by a tornado. One of the things that struck me, besides the mess and stripped bare trees, was the contrasts.The first house that we "temped" (we were putting temporary roofs on open air houses) was directly across the street from a foundation. Yes a foundation. The only thing left standing on the house was the masonry chimney. The entire house was blown away. Next door, only 75 feet away stood an intact ranch. The only thing damaged on the ranch was a few shingles blown off, and a broken window. It tells me that if the twister lands directly on your house, you better be huddled in your fireplace, or some similar structure. Around here, we all have basements, and that is by far the best place to be.We temped about a dozen houses over the next few days. On one house, the trusses had been ripped off, taking the double top plate with them. On most others, the trusses had simply been ripped off. Obviously, the ceiling drywall was gone too, but interestingly, sometimes the drywall would survive intact on the small rooms (closets, bathrooms, etc.) There was one funny incident. A kid had been taking a shower, upstairs in a two story house. The tornado ripped his trusses off, but left the drywall intact on the bathroom ceiling. The kid didn't quite know what happened, and was quite surprised to open the bathroom door and found himself outside in the raining, open air. Unhurt. A neighbor behind him was killed in their home.Tornadoes can undue in one second that which we labor and build for thousands of hours. They cannot be constrained, but you can increase your chances for survival. I would personally recommend a small concrete bunker to be built inside the house somewhere, preferable in a basement. The next best thing would be a closet on the first floor. YOu couln't tornado proof a whole house for a few thousand bucks, but you could pour a concrete closet, or pantry and give yourself the ultmate chance for survival, if you have enough time to get there."disaster worker", blue
*I live near a "tornado alley" in Arkansas (used to live right in the middle of it). In January 1998 we had a series of tornadoes that stayed on the ground for about 12 hours going from one corner of the state to the other. MOST of the damage is from high winds -- not direct hits. If your house takes a direct hit, unless it is solid reinforced concrete, it IS gone. One house I saw was just across the road from some that took a direct hit; it was undamaged, except it had been pushed off the concrete block foundation. How much would it have cost to put in tie rods to secure the sole plate to the footings? Not much, but no one does around here, because "that's not what the GC or builder usually does." The homeowner has to take control of such things.
*FEMA has a publication number 320, it is titled something like "Surviving the storm" We build saferooms and "safehouses", all with cast in place concrete, and Armor glass that withstands a 45 cal bullet at 30 feet. The saferooms cost about 4 to 6 k, the whole house adds 30%, if only the walls are poured, then it only adds about 15%. You can recover the cost in heating and cooling cost reductions, as well as insurance and maintenance costs.... These houses look just like any other when finished except the walls are thicker. Go to fema.gov for the book. These houses are commonplace in areas like Guam....if you build it with wood in Guam, it will either become driftwood or eaten by critters. Ian
*yep , that's the way I remember it . I do remodeling mostly which means I get to open up the work of other builders and see how it was put together. Craftsmanship is a forgotten word in many places, especially where guys are paid by the piece at the lowest rate possible. you get what you pay for when you shop that way. All that aside , I lived through a tornado striking a job site I was roofing in Florida back in the early seventies and I can only say that its got more to do with the will of God than anything else.
*Luka, your anti gun sentiments are not well founded. To prove my point, I'll make you a little wager, say five high quality-high fat milk bones.We each will hammer two sticks of lumber together for excactly ten seconds. Then, we will exchange pieces, and see who seperates the pieces first.I get to use my Paslode, you get to use your pre-21st century hand powered hammer.May the best man win.blue
*ROFLMAO!!Rich Beckman
*Not a good wager. Does someone have a mirror ? I want to see if I have stupid written on my forehead again....Blue, you devil you, I'll take the wager in a bit different form.The boards used must be set up with a 1/4 inch gap between them. The gap must be difficult, but not impossible to close. We put the same number of nails in the boards. You cannot put any more pressure on the gun than any average framer does when in a hurry to get done for the day. There is no time limit.Your wager illustrates the fact that many more nails can be put into a board in the same time. Many more nails will hold a board together better than fewer nails. However, it does not illustrate real life. In real life, no more nails are put into the same boards by either method. In real life, the person with the nail gun does not normaly do what it takes to close a gap between boards, and the person hammering by hand does...Your wager does not come close to reflecting real life. Mine does. The best method will win.Wow, I just realized how easy it is to make wagers in cyber-reality. You don't have to follow through. LOL
*Luka, you obviously have had experiences with caprenters that don't want to use their hammers to pull something tight. But that would be considered poor carpentry, if handnailed, or gun nailed. I'm making a wager an basing it on accpeted framing methodes. Leaving a gap between boards is not acceptable, and I, nor my guys know how to do that.It's tight onr nothing.blue
*Every once in a while someone says something that gives one pause. This is one of those times. You are absolutely correct, not pulling those gaps tight is poor carpentry. While it is easier and more likely that the gaps will be left if a nailgun is used, a good carpenter will close them anyway. The approach I have been using is too broad. My apologies to those who have been tossed in a virtual box they do not belong in."If nailguns are outlawed, only bad carpenters will have nailguns !"
*Or.."If nailguns are outlawed, bad carpenters would still have hammers."I've got mine....Rich Beckman
*One of the do-it-yourself magazines currently on the newstand has an article on how to build your own tornado shelter (Handyman?). As best I can remember from perusing it at my local magazine rack, they called for a standard frame walled interior room, covered the studs with 14ga steel, which was covered with two thicknesses of 3/4 plywood, and then covered with sheetrock. Specified a steel door with ball bearing hinges or some such. Might not stop your full blown tornado levitated cow as well as 6" of concrete, but might slow her down some. Should be a little cheaper than setting up forms in your sewing closet and pumping them full of mud...
*Good now that the terms are settled, do we have a bet?Seriously Luka, I used to be a hardnosed hand pounder myself, thinking that a good job was impossible otherwise. I don't believe that anymore, but understand that the responsiblilty of good nailing practices is still left with each individual carpenter. One of the things that I have noticed over the years is the tendendcy of gun nailers to overnail. Since it is so easy to add nails, all too often, we tend to put many more nails than necessary. Rarely do I have to ask for more. Hand pounders on the other hand tend to undernail. I have never (rarely) been able to get journeymen to adequtely nail sheetstock to meet manufacturers requirements. Sure they will put two spikes into a stud, but don't wxpcet them to actually handnail a girder with two rows of nails 3" on center (yes, we actually do that with the gun) if required.I also laugh when someone tells me that staples won't hold a fascia on a subfascia (since our trim is always rough sawn spruce, we staple it with medium crowned galvanized staple). Usually when I get something wrong , I normally just cut it into small pieces and split it off, rather than trying to pull it. It is almost impossible to get those staples to let loose, especially if it is fastened properly.Anyways, don't discount gun nails because some yahoo doesn't use them properly. They are excellent maney makers in the right hands.And good for winning bets.blue
*Actualy we may have a draw. We both agree that no matter the tools, if the job is not done right, it is the fault of the person wielding the tools.I commend you for knowing the difference and having the conscience to do it right. However, I still don't like nailguns because it makes it too easy to do it the wrong way. Doesn't mean I'd never use one, just means I don't like them in the wrong hands. Of course, as you pointed out, even a hammer in the wrong hands is just as bad. LOLThe fact that those 'wrong hands' are more likely to pick up a nailgun because they can get their wretched job done sooner, and get paid sooner, notwithstanding..... Nail guns can/do make the job easier for good carpenters as well. In future I will not raile against nailguns, only against woodhacks who do a piss-poor job of it regardless of the tools.
*I think you are wishfully thinking about the draw thing Luka. I'm going to shoot about 50 nails into them boards in the ten seconds. You'll probably get three or four into it.I'll have those three or four chinked out with my exhumer in fifteen secoinds, and I'm sure you won't even bother to try to seperate my pieces.The one problem that I have concerning nailguns is from a little different angle. When I started, in the 70's, the apprentices (me) use to work in tandem with journeymen. We'd hump the lumber, that he would tack, then do most of the routine nailing. The time spent nailing was time for studying the journeyman's work. It was also time for gettin in touch with your tools.Sometime in the mid to late 80's, I found it impossible to find and keep interested apprentices. If I had one, he wouldn't be able to keep up with the humping or nailing. I found myself doingway too much routine nailing. That's when I switched to guns. But guess what?! Now, I don't need apprentices! I can hump my own lumber, and nail everything myself. So, what's the problem? Now the apprentices are working alone, humping and nailing themselves. They don't really understand how to use a hammer, or the thousands of uses it has. And they don't have the benenfit of studying a journeymans' techniques as the walls and cornice are constructed. In the short term, I make a ton more cash, especially if hand pounders are setting the labor rates. But in the long run, a good portion of my trade secrets remaing secret because I'm not there next to a rookie showing them.Oh well, I like to eat steak occasionally, so I'll continue to shoot everything, and I mean everything. Yesterday, I was helping my son-in-law renovate his house. We glued and shot the drywall on with a roofing coil nailer, and stapled the corner bead on with medium crown staples. It worked wonderful!nail gun happy,blue
*I don't take sucker bets. As I said before, make it the same number of nails, and no time limit. Add to that, you have to take the boards apart with the same tool you put them together with, and I might consider it. : )
*Luka, I might take that bet, provided I am allowed to customize my paslode. Anyone out there know how to weld hammer claws onto a powermaster?Hey! What are you doing home today? I layed myself off for a week or so, what's your excuse?Okay, heres another bet, instead. I'll bet I can balance a dozen nails on the head of one nail.I'm putting my entire collection of milk bones on the line.This ain't no sucker bet...I'm sure you will win, if you so choose to wager.blue
*You can customize your nailgun if I can customize my hammer. Anyone know how to weld a nailgun to a hammer ?LOLI'l bet I can balance 2 dozen nails, plus 2 dozen drywall screws on the head of one nail.
*You got me there, Luka.I can probably balance the 2 dozen nails, and screws too, so I won't be taking the bet.I was just looking for some easy milkbones!blue
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Ian, sounds like the voice of experience. How well I know it - spent the first ten years of life in Guam and Micronesia. We went through both Karen and Pamela (force 5/6 hurricanes). We lived in concrete block bungalow-type houses with flat poured concrete roofs, no glass in the windows (screens and ironwood jalousies). Frankly the worst part of those hurricanes was being without water for weeks and power for over 2 months. But as a kid, it was a blast - no school and lots of beachcombing.
Who is the "we" who builds saferooms? Just for tornadoes and such or are you doing embassy work on the side?
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Did anyone see Tom Brokaw last night talking about the tornados in Ft Worth? Also the discussion on "tornado proof" buildings. FEMA has evidently said that for a "few thousand dollars" a house can be made tornado safe. I live in tornado alley, have for decades, and my skepticsm level is ringing the bell on this one.
I think I could build a house that would - mostly - survive a tornado, and certainly improve the inhabitants chances of survival, but Tornado Proof? That strikes me as saying you can build something idiot proof. And I don't think you could retrofit or even build that safety in for a "few thousand dollars".
Any thoughts on all this? Coastal differences? (I see tornados and hurricanes as being similar in some respects [having been through both, thank you]), but what about earthquakes, floods, wildfires, etc.?