Powers that be… please don’t move this to the tavern, I can’t get in there…
OK, so I am considering a trailer, probably a 6×10 dumping trailer. Problem is, my truck *appears* to be woefully inadequate. But I’m not sure yet, so I’m here to ask.
Truck in question is a 4.2L 6cyl manual tranny 3.05 ratio F150, new in 2003. It came with the “towing package”, which appears to mean a 2″ receiver and maybe a bit of a wiring harness.
I don’t know much about the towing packge, but right on the bumper (next to the female thread for a ball) it says something to the effect of ‘maximum trailer weight 5000lbs’. But, I checked the owner’s manual and for my model and specs it appears to say max trailer weight 2000 lbs.
I figure a loaded dump trailer at 5000-7000 lbs. The one I looked at recently is rated at 7000 lbs.
Questions: what can I tow with this truck, and what would I need to tow a full 6×10 dumping trailer? Sorry I’m so clueless…. but I am.
Replies
"I don't know much about the towing packge, but right on the bumper (next to the female thread for a ball) it says something to the effect of 'maximum trailer weight 5000lbs'. But, I checked the owner's manual and for my model and specs it appears to say max trailer weight 2000 lbs."
That is for the attachment of the ball to the bumper. Say nothing about how much you can tow.
My guess is that you are down rated for the clutch.
I don't the exact number but my Ranger is rated to pull much more than is reasonable. Something like 4500 lbs, maybe more.
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
DavidMeiland,
If you open your drivers door there will be a decal there with it's rated towing capacity. Use that as your absolute maximum.
Towing will put additional strain on your clutch, A lot! if you do a fair amount of towing expect to replace clutch, pressure plate and TO bearing often. (oh and you will have to have the flywheel blanchard ground at the same time.. some dealers will simply sell you a new flywheel to save the day it takes to get it ground and back in time to install.
Look at the trailer next.. what sort of brakes are on it? electric? well you'll need a controller to activate those. Figure a hundred plus by the time you have it installed and plumbed..
Another $30.00 dollars or so because the truck wiring is usually differant than the trailer wiring, Plus you'll need the ball and mount..
Surge? Well you will need something to prevent the brakes from locking up when you back up.. several ways available ask if you'd like..
Finally the difficulty of driving with a trailer isn't something that comes automatically..
http://busbuilding.com/bus-conversion/gvwr-gawr-gcwr-ccc-what-do-all-those-acronyms-mean/"GVWR: Gross Vehicle Weight Rating
The MAXIMUM ALLOWABLE WEIGHT of the fully loaded vehicle, including liquids, passengers, cargo, and the tongue weight of any towed vehicle.GAWR: Gross Axle Weight Rating
The MAXIMUM ALLOWABLE WEIGHT each axle assembly is designed to carry, as measured at the tires, therefore including the weight of the axle assembly itself. GAWR is established by considering the rating of each of its components (tires, wheels, springs, axle), and rating the axle on its weakest link. The GAWR assumes that the LOAD IS EQUAL ON EACH SIDE.GCWR: Gross Combination Weight Rating
The MAXIMUM ALLOWABLE COMBINED WEIGHT of the tow vehicle and the attached towed vehicle. GCWR assumes that both vehicles have functioning brakes, with exceptions in some cases for very light towed vehicles, normally less than 1,500 pounds. (Check your chassis manual or towing guide.)CCC: Cargo Carrying Capacity
Equal to GVWR minus each of the following: UVW (full fresh potable) water weight (including water heater), full LP gas weight, and SCWR."My sticker has a GVWR and GAWR.But it does not list the GCWR or the empty weight needed to use the GCWR.
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
BillHartmann,
Check your owners manual.. it will provide it.
One thing that many (most?) people don't consider when talking about towing heavy loads is the rated capacity of the ball. The typical 2" ball with a 1" shank is typically 5,000 lbs or less. I have never heard of a good quality ball breaking, but I am sure that they can. I do not understand how the manufacturers come up with towing ratings. They seem to vary with engine size as well as other things. If I have a heavily loaded trailer, I can slow down and use a lower gear - it seems to me that the limitation should be the brakes rather than the engine size, but I for trucks with the same size brakes but different engines, the towing capacity seems to follow the engine size (even when the engines use the same transmission).
With my van it's the auto tranny -- 2000 without cooler, 3500 with.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
It has more to do with brakes, tranny, and suspension than engine size.
Exceed the recommend by maker and it will handle a certain amt, but repair bills will grow for things like brakes, clutch, bearings, etc.As with other types of driving, the idiot behind the wheel is the greatest variance.
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what is blanchard ground?"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
That 3.05 rear end is the major limitation, but having a manual is goodness if 4 speed. You could also get a lower gearing 3/4T rear end from a junkyard to swap in.
Watch out for the rear axles if you use the 1/2T 3.05, do not turn sharp with a load as you put all the torque on inside axle - sheared an old IHC 3/4 T that way with 11,000# load of gravel a long time ago.
Now however, have towed a 6000 # trailer (with brakes) behind a '71 Datsun pickup truck with manual tranny -Datsun only weighed 2000#, had about 2000# on the tongue with air shocks on the truck at 120psi. Mosly flat, from the pole yard at Seatle city light to Renton, about 10 miles, no problem.
Tried towing an equipment trailer and 15,000# dozer once with a '73 chrysler wagon with auto and 383 and a puke poor 2.73 rear end - could barely make it up a 5% grade due to the auto transmission.
Have towed a equipment trailer loaded to 30,000# from Mossyrock to Renton behind a '63 GMC 3/4 T with 6 cyl and manual tranny and 4.10 rear end - even went thru the WA state I-5 weigh stations with no patrol problems.
You probably will be OK on the island with the 150, but would beef up the hitch. Go with at least a 2-5/16" ball and do add some diagonal steel welded to the frame. The old '63 GMC had a couple of extra 2" square tubes welded diagonally to the frame in addition to the cross hitch 2" tube, the Datsun had a 5" steel channel step bumper welded to the frame.
Off road, have literally torn the bolted on step bumper off a dodge 1/2T 4x4 pulling a 5000# trailer thru mud.
Advice is to weld up a stronger bumper and add overload springs or air shocks, and you should be OK on the island.
we must be some kinda kin.... pulled a 34ft houseboat with a 1981 kingcab datsun diesel PU... pulled a bobcat on a trailer many times with same truck..... pulled a 21ft deep v ski boat all over the south with it... once on a camp'n trip when my buddies axle left his pontiac in the ozarks... while he was pull'n a large popup camper... we just left his car... hooked the camper to my truck... loaded all 12 people and a dog in the datsun and went on our way... (had 5 cases of 1.25 a bottle wine with us)... what i remember most was i got to share a bed with 3 girls... think i was 20 at the time... might not be as good as i once was....
thanks for spark'n a memory
P
Thanks all for the replies. It sounds like this truck is marginal... like maybe the type of towing it can really do is a small cargo trailer with a couch and a loveseat in it.
For clarification--there is a square receiver and tow bracket factory-installed on the truck. I would not tow off the bumper.
Bill H, I'm not sure what you mean about the 5000 lb. rating listed on the bumper. Is this not total allowable trailer weight if towing from the bumper? I have to assume that if using a receiver mounted ball the capacity would be more?
Also, I'm still confused about the listing in the manual.... 2000 lbs. Does that mean tongue weight or total trailer weight. Maybe I oughta read it again.
There is no highway driving here. Everything I drive is 45 mph max, sometimes hilly, occasionally steep, and sometimes gravel. There's actually a fairly steep grade going up to the scale at the transfer station.
The bad news is I already have (2) 8' high side boxes and a lumber rack on this truck. I would guess with me, the stuff behind the seat, the tools I carry, and the rack I already have 1200-1500 lbs. on there 24/7.
I probably need to shop for an F250 beater to tow with. If I do that I might as well just get one with a stake dump and forget the trailer altogether. It has already been investigated and confirmed that I suck at backing a trailer, although I can back very large fire engines thru rally courses using mirrors.
"Bill H, I'm not sure what you mean about the 5000 lb. rating listed on the bumper. Is this not total allowable trailer weight if towing from the bumper? I have to assume that if using a receiver mounted ball the capacity would be more?"That just menas that if you pull a 5000 lb trailer that the bumper won't fall off.It does not mean that the clutch won't burnout, the wheels won't fall off, etc.IE the same bumper is probably used on all the F-150's.Use the reciever can probably handle over 7700 lbs, which some of the other versions rated at.You limit is on the drive train and suspension, not the towing connection..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Checking all the stats I can find, GCVR for this rig is 6500#.
Checking a bunch of my transfer station receipts, I am at 5200-5500# leaving the scale (usually closer to 5200--sometimes I come and go from there with cargo I don't toss out, which accounts for the occasional higher weight).
So, there's really only 1300 lbs. to play with and stay legal.
Funny thing is, our Toyota 4Runner is rated much higher, like 9000# GCVR. That would have to be my tow vehicle.
>>>Bill H, I'm not sure what you mean about the 5000 lb. rating listed on the bumper. Is this not total allowable trailer weight if towing from the bumper? I have to assume that if using a receiver mounted ball the capacity would be more?<<<I know you didn't address that to me but . . .I can't see how, with that 6 cyl., you could have more than a Class III frame-mounted hitch, where the total weight is 5000 lbs with weight distribution, and the tongue weight maxes out at 500 lbs. (again, with weight distribution). And I don't know how one could tow 2000 lbs off a bumper mount, particularly on a half-ton truck--at the very least think about how that bumper is attached to the truck. (Unless you have one of those freightliner pickups, and then, well, maybe you could. :^))One of the confusing things about towing terminology is often people will say "bumper-pull" when what they really mean is "straight-pull" (versus gooseneck).>>>>Also, I'm still confused about the listing in the manual.... 2000 lbs. Does that mean tongue weight or total trailer weight. Maybe I oughta read it again.<<<<I'm thinking that's total weight, without considering the GCWR-GVWR calculation. Even my Class IV hitch maxes out the tongue weight at 750 lbs.I think Ford must've put the placard on the bumper so you don't have to crawl under the truck to see it on the receiver; and, given the circumstances you'd be driving the rig in, I think your current truck wouldn't last very long.Good luck,soj
I just went out and looked at my Ranger.The bumper is marked 200 lbs max tounge weight, 2000 lbs max towing weight.But the truck is rated to tow much more..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Fair 'nuff, since I don't drive a Ford. (So whaddo I know?) It does surprise me.Those are some tough bumpers, then. I imagine their mounts must be well integrated into the frame?soj
You will not find a tongue weight allowance more than 750#.For your truck and the steep conditions, I don't see it practical having more than about 3000# trailer. That means you could haul some debris but come to a roof tear-off or a bunch of plaster, and the weight can pile up quick, leading to some scary driving or a new clutch.
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The 2000 pound listing in the owners manual would be total trailer weight, and it's a function of drive train, brakes, and suspension limitations.If a bumper is rated for 5000 that simply means that the bumper is strong enough for that towing weight -- has nothing to do with the rest of the vehicle.The worst case for an auto tranny is trailering at low speed up and down steep hills. For a manual clutch the worst case is jockeying a trailer back and forth in rough terrain. For brakes it's generally high speed stops and maintaining control down long hills at any speed. For suspension it's high speed driving.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
"There is no highway driving here. Everything I drive is 45 mph max, sometimes hilly, occasionally steep, and sometimes gravel. There's actually a fairly steep grade going up to the scale at the transfer station."
Thats an important peice of information right there .
Dont do as I say , just think about it .
Ive pulled a loaded produce trailer 200,000 miles which part of the time leaving the loading dock weighed in at 10,000lbs. I did it with a 1500 chevy 4x4 , 6 motor with a standard 5 speed. High speed rear end . I just got through with a daredevil feat and should have my butt whipped. Truth of the matter Ive done it my whole working life.
I just got done bringing home a backhoe that weighs 6700 lbs on a 5000 trailer with a combined weight of say 9700 tied to my hitch. I hauled it home over the trail of tears passageway which is steep mountains [why they died] but it took hours to get home with it at an average speed of 30 mph. I left at 5.30 am and didnt return till 3 am the next day. I pulled out from the sale site at 5 pm and got home at 3 am . It took that long to get home a distance of 200 miles.
The standard helps as you can cruise in third gear. You can even make a decent go in second gear. Hills are ok they just take longer . What you dont want to do is stop on a hill unless you like backing . 4WD helps with that if it has a transfer case you can pull out in low. I think mine would have scooted anything in low loaded. Thats where you tear up clutches so dont do it . Get a run at a stop sign on a grade . Ive waited on flat ground for the light to turn green or timed it .
You can do what you are asking to do but remember your load weighs more than the truck. If you get caught comming down an incline and make a sharp turn the trailer wont want to follow you so you hae to be thinking about jack knifeing all the time and stay clear of thiose situations . If you dont have a braked trailer then thats where you go 30 mph.
Tim
Here's my 2 cents
I have a 98 Dakota 2WD with a 3.9 V6. We installed a class 3 hitch, and then fitted the trailer and truck with a weight distributing kit..... it essentially distributes the weight of the trailer over the whole setup from front bumber to back of the trailer. I have a tandem axle dump trailer taht weighs 2500 pounds, and I routinely carry 3-4000 pounds in the trailer at highway speeds (sometimes as high as 100km/H)
Now, all that said, the trailer has electric brakes, and the truck is fitted with LT rated tires.
The truck also has a huge SpaceKap topper and 1000 pounds of tools on it.
Dan
Carolinian Construction.... Grand Bend Ontario Canada eh...
I had a 93 automatic dakota with the V8 and towed a tandem axle dump trailer 12' long.
The trailer weighed 4500lbs. and would weigh over 11,000lbs. loaded with gravel or dirt.
I put airlift bags on the first day as the truck couldn't even hookup the trailer empty.
I toreup the rearend by dumping dirt and having to slam the brakes to get the dirt to slide.
Bought a 3/4 ton rearend built for a dakota in Oregon that was much stouter.
My class 3 hitch eventually bent so I got a class 4 and had it bolted and welded in place also did some minor gussetting to the frame.
The dakota lasted ten years and the transmission was starting to go when I traded it in for a 2002 2500 ram diesel 6speed with a 410 gear.
ANDYSZ2WHY DO I HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO FRIENDS AND FAMILY THAT BEING A SOLE PROPRIETOR IS A REAL JOB?
REMODELER/PUNCHOUT SPECIALIST
It is not hard to tear up a Mopar rear end anyways.Those Dakotas were some tough trucks. I had an 88
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Are we talking dakota as in Dodge dakota?
I think it did a H6ll of a job. Thats a small pick up comparible to S10 and ranger.
In a nutshell, 7000 with that truck. Can you? Yes. Should you? I vote no. I see farmers all the time, 3/4 ton truck, 30 foot trailer, 14 tons. . . it pulls it, but. I don't want to be on the road anywhere near it.
Frenchy is right on, the sticker on the frame gives you GVWR and GCVWR . . . one minus the other is max load, including people, cabin trash, fuel, trailer, everything that wasnt there when it rolled out of the plant. The C stands for combined, if you didnt know.
Brakes are another thing that get overlooked. You'd be surprised how much that trailer will push you if they're weak. And I dont mean not there, just not stout. Setting the controller, You want the trailer brakes where they're just starting to stop you. Too much trailer brake, the trailer skids while you brake, too little, you brake, and you dont stop.
I suspect the 3/4 ton variety is probably more in line with what the manufacturers think is the "right" size for what you're doing. But, you see ads, I'm thinking Fords asinine "fully boxed frame" ad now, claiming much higher (11500) on the new 150's. Man, that doesnt seem bright. Maybe thats the combined, but it comes across in the commercial as trailer weight. (And if a boxed frame is so good, why is every full size one ton across the board, including Ford, using C channel? Anyway.
You can find the manufacturers weight ratings on their web sites, usually even for vehicles that are not the current model year. That might be worth a peek.
Real trucks dont have sparkplugs
Clutch, tranny, and brakes are the critical areas, beyond the simple suspension issues. If you'll be towing mainly on the flat, and not at excessive speeds (over 60-70, depending) you can probably bend the weight limit a bit. But "a bit" is maybe 3000-3500 on a vehicle rated for 2K.
Keep in mind too that high speed handling will be in the toilet (due to suspension issues) if you overload. I've seen guys with large boats get them "dancing" when they made a suddden lane shift at high speed.
But if you want to regularly tow a 7K trailer at highway speeds or over less than ideal terrain, you need a vehicle rated for 7K towing.
Here is the spec sheets for the 2002.
http://www.fordf150.net/specs/02f150.php
Near the bottom is the base curb weight.
But that is does not include fuel and even oil or your butt in the seat.
(And I ain't even going to mention all of the stuff behind the seat.
Below that there is the GCWR and the trailering weight. Looking at just one of them it appears that the table allows for 500 lbs of payload.
But if you compare the different combinations and between the auto and manul you will see that most of the problem is with the manual transmission and and not the rear end. Although it does not help.
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Here's how I was taught to figure it:
GCWR (Gross Combined Weight Rating) is the total combined weight of vehicle, trailer and loaded stuff in vehicle and on the trailer that the vehicle can manage.
GVWR (Gross Vehicle Weight Rating, the weight of the vehicle plus all the stuff, including gas, fluids, passengers, inside)
GCWR less GVWR gives you the number to work off of.
You should be able to find the GCWR or GVWR numbers on the placard on the pillar (or grab them online-- does this help? http://www.fordf150.net/specs/03f150.php)
Even given the numbers on that page, it looks like you're over safe capacity.
I suspect you're getting clipped by the axle ratio, the V6, and the manual transmission altogether--all the things that give you some mileage efficiency trim the tow capacity.
I tow a trailer of similar weight rating, but about 20' long, with a 2001 Dodge Ram, 5.9 V-8, 3.92 axle with LSD, electric brakes and transmission cooler (part of the tow package). Tows beautifully.
I did drive a V6 manual tranny truck for a while, and I'd think it would struggle in such a situation. I found it had a hard time just getting itself going (but I do like me my V-8s! :^))
Hope this helps.
soj
(edited to add: wow, everybody beat me to it! :^))
Edited 4/18/2007 9:09 pm ET by Sojourner
David - my 6x12 dump weighs nearly 3K. I pull it with a 1/2 ton 4wd 5.7L V8 which is inadequate at best. Wouldn't want to pull it far or fast fully loaded. The way most dump trailers are configured with the axles toward the rear makes it easy to surpass the rated tongue weight.
http://grantlogan.net/
Thanks again gentlemen. It's stupid to list a weight rating on the bumper like that. Then you get some clown like me who thinks it means he can tow a 5000# trailer. I've adandoned the idea until/unless I get a real truck.
just gonna add ..
U said "dump trailer" ...
so consider your "dump conditions" too ...
remember ... U gotta get in ... thru ... and back out of the dump!
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
LOL,
We don't have a "dump" here anymore.
We have a "transfer station" They "encourage" you to separate things for recycling.
But most construction debirs - you back up a hill to a concrete apron slab where the steel bins are over the edge and you unload into them.The town designerd this ramp/dump thing based on the size of roll-offs used by the contracting waste company at that time.The next year, the changed companies based on a lower bid.And ended up with taller dumpsters. So some dump trailers will not fitt out over the edge to dump into it.
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We have a real dumbass transfer station setup here. You have to pull uphill a bit at an angle, and then back down around a corner into one of three narrow spots on the tipping floor. I have to do it in my truck now using mirrors (it has hi-side boxes that make turning your head a waste of time). Getting a trailer down there would suck. But what sucks worse is making numerous trips with 500-1000# in the pickup and unloading it by hand. There are times when I have to choose between cleaning up the job and then having to keep my truck full of crap because they are closed Monday and Tuesday. I gots ta' have a dump trailer or a stake dump flatbed.
Here we just take it out to the dump -- umm, "demolition landfil" -- and dump. The trick is getting in and out without getting stuck in the mud, getting a nail in a tire, or getting nailed by the sheepsfoot dozer.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
We get that schedule problem too. Open on Sunday, Monday, and Wednesday.And once a bin is full he has to calll for pickup, so there are times that the two bins get filled up on Sunday and Wed is the only day of the weeek that works for me. With the dump trailer I can let it set for awhile.
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Main problem here is that I can get either 2 yard or 30 yard boxes, nothing in between. For a large job upcoming I think I'm getting a 2 with weekly pickup, just like any business.
As far as the trailer thing goes, I think if I have to get another truck I may just as well get one that has a dump bed. That way I don't have to deal with backing a trailer into all the places it would need to go. Besides, I always wanted a big-azz truck.
I may just as well get one that has a dump bed
Good choice!
Every time I use my 2 yard dump 4x4 I sure wish I'd a gotten it 30 years ago instead of 6 years ago.. ..... oh, wait, I didn't have much money then, and just for DIY?? <G>
Oh, well, if I'da known you had one... mebbe I could just borrow it!
My neighbor's got an older F250 flatbed that looks prime, since he recently got a new one. I need to stop in there and ask about it.
If you come thru Renton some week, drop a line, I'll show you my truck. Took about 3 days to weld up all the brackets and bed from scrap laying around and about $400 worth of hydraulics, have dumped up to 6000# out of the bed, have not tried to load it heavier. Had to build my own, could not find anything for sale reasonable price.
'63/64 GMC cab on '73 chev 250 chassis, 1T rear suspension. Had the cab and chassis, put a rebuilt 350 in it and 350th auto, 4x4 trans case has a granny.
Art B.
Art, unfortunately, if it's not wood, I can't work it. I'd have to buy a ready-made deal and honestly for the business I run it'll get paid for quickly. I had an uber-welder living next door but he moved down to Oregon. It's such a great loss that I considered moving down there too and buying in next to him.
I'm about one week ahead of you there.My 3/4 ton with 6.0L gas engine could haul all I wanted with the dump trailer or tool trailer up to 10K# but fuel mileage went down to 9MPG when working. This dump body runs on a 6.6 Duramax. First fillup so far got me 20MPG, but I don't expect to keep that up when she starts working.
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Those twin cylinders oughta unload a anything you can put in it
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Oh that's right, you bought a NEW rig. Whichever client you're working for at the moment is swearing up and down... that dang contractor, he suckered me, lookit that new truck he bought with my money, might have to stiff him for the last check.
i've seen that kind. A landscaper showed up in a fairly new rig with company t-shirts on all his guys. The HO turned to me and muttered, "I must be paying him too much", and proceeded top chew on him 'till he negotiated three hundred off the price of a few trees.OTOH, I have gotten a few jobs with people who see new and clean and conclude, "There is a reason why this guy is doing that well, he must be good!"
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Always splash a little mud on the new truck.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
I just got back from two trips to jobs and the dump.All done gettin the mud on her.I need some running boards with mud flaps built in.
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The main problem is the manual tranny ....... won't pull much more than a wet roll of toilet paper. Good for mileage, bad for towing. Tranny is probrably the M5OD- it's a Mazda built overdrive tranny without a creeper 1st gear, aluminum case, and not the most rugged tranny around. iirc max towing is around 3500 lbs; if you'd had an automatic the rating is over 5000 lbs. None of the big three has put a rugged manual trany in a 1/2 for a long time now. Time for a new truck or a smaller trailer.
Edited 4/21/2007 10:34 am ET by jc21
My barber will sell me a '79 F250 with some huge motor and a creeper tranny with a cooler. He says it gets 8 MPG and is wicked for picking up girls. I think it has the brown-beige two-tone paint with the chrome trim package.