As I read of all those folks “back East” suffering without power, due to an ice storm ….
I also note some interesting threads at FHB. One complains that some place has opposition to adopting the latest ‘energy code.’ Another laments the Amish, and their non-compliant ways.
I have to ask: just who do you think will weather this storm in better shape?
Perhaps it is we who ought to be adopting the Amish’ rules … rather than the other way around.
Any thoughts?
Replies
Amish (as far as I know) run huge diesel generators for power and heat...not my ideal of the future.
Perhaps the power company should do something more intelligent than stringing electrical lines from tree to tree. mebe...put 'em in the ground!?!?
I hate looking at power lines, worrying about them, and having power go out because the wind blows or a DD plows a pole with his pickup. They have always bothered me.
I also wish there were a law to be passed requiring all buildings to provide a minimum of 10% of their own power through solar/wind/etc. sustainable technology. A mandatory surge in sustainable technology might bring the cost down to realistic prices and would certainly catapult it into the mainstream of carpentry knowledge base as opposed to being considered by many as "high tech" or "futuristic". Plywood used to be "high tech".
GK
Well, I do appreciate your response.
You might be thinking of another group, though. The Amish don't use zippers, let alone internal combustion engines or electrical power. They live life in essentially the same manner we did, back in 1800.
It's all wood stoves and oil lanterns. Their homes are of a similarly traditional construction; mud rooms/porches, many small rooms, and generous pantries. When a storm hits, all they need do is throw a log on the fire, and wait for spring.
They banned wood burning around here on "spare the air" nights. The particulates hang in the still air and cause respiratory issues. Yes, you can burn if it's your only heat source such as during a power outage so the Amish are OK.
I think I may have installed the last legal fireplace in my town. New woodburning appliances are now banned, no new homes for the Amish allowed here.
I would hate to see 100,000,000 chimneys spewing smoke at the same time. Talk about black lung!
OB
"You might be thinking of another group, though. The Amish don't use zippers, let alone internal combustion engines or electrical power. "not so.Their doctrine calls for them to be separate and apart from the world, relying on God and his provision and following his laws strictly.different groups of Amish have some differing interpretations of some things, but there are a couple reasons for not relying strongly on lectricity. one is that the wires coming in from away would make them reliant on the greater world that they are supposed to separate from. The other is that for them to require the juice on Sundays means forcing some other human person to work on sundays, thus causing them to sin. But a great many of them have no problem with keeping a huge generator out at the shop/barn to power the tools. They also freely use telephones, just not attached to their house. That is why you can often see a phone booth at the end of a long driveway in the middle of farm fields.
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It was explained to me as coming from a biblical passage--something about " be ye not yoked with non-believers"--( my quote is not exact)so depending on sect you might see generators, you might see horse drawn farm equipment with an internal combustion engine operating a harvestor of some kind, you will see LOT's of air tools in shops running off ofcompressors and generators----you will see lot's of DC powered stuff running off of batteries----like cash registors running off of car batteriesit's all pretty ingeneous--and avoids hooking up to the local electic utility--which would be "Being yoked to non-believers"
stephen
Yeah, that's the exact biblical quote what I was saying about keeping separated from the world. The idea being that once you start doing business with unbelievers, it isn't long before you start thinking and talking and sinning in other ways just like them.misses the point that we tend to create out own sins and injustices from within if we don't have the right attitude in the first place.
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<misses the point that we tend to create out own sins and injustices from within if we don't have the right attitude in the first place.>That's true, but a nice long walk out to the end of the driveway before picking up the phone might have prevented a sin/injustice or two that I can recall. j
"The idea being that once you start doing business with unbelievers, it isn't long before you start thinking and talking and sinning in other ways just like them."
I have done a lot of business with Amish tradesmen, suppliers, and manufacturers. I have also competed against them for work.
Most of them have done quite well for themselves, some of them are millionairs.
The tradesmen work quite cheap, but their overhead is very low. They are exempted from Social Security, they don't buy hospitalization (when someone becomes sick or injured the collective group takes care of hospital expenses). They borrow money from within the group at 0% interest. The tradesmen always have an "English" partner, that is how they justify their use of electrical power tools and transportation needs.
The suppliers and manufacturers are more mainstream in the way they run their businesses. But they too have "English " partners. And some, as they became more financially successful, have switched to more liberal Orders, or become Mennonite.
I worked along side one Amish crew that at least half the crew smoked and cussed. It was the roughest crew I had ever seen. BTW they cussed in English, for all I know they may all cuss in German, but I doubt it.
As someone previously said, "Amish built" doesnt mean squat. They use the same tools and methods as we do. There are no Amish working their chisels and hand planes to produce anything that they sell for profit.
Also, Amish subs in this area work cheaper than Mexican subs.John Svenson, builder, remodeler, NE Ohio
"As someone previously said, "Amish built" doesn't mean squat. "Agreed - I hope that in my attempting to explain a few details, I didn't give the impression I was standing up for them and furthering the aura. most of their work I have seen was piss poor by comparison to what I normally work with. It's in the barely acceptable range is all.
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"Agreed - I hope that in my attempting to explain a few details, I didn't give the impression I was standing up for them and furthering the aura. most of their work I have seen was piss poor by comparison to what I normally work with. It's in the barely acceptable range is all."I didn't get that impression from you. There certainly is an aura about them that some hold. My experience is that their skills run the gamut. If you hire them, check them out as you would anyone else. I've seen Amish that could build a ballistrade to rival Stan's. And I've seen some that couldn't build a simple shed straight. And just about everything in between.I hope my post didn't sound too negative. I've been lucky enough to know some great Amish people. And they would be the first to admit that no one should make generalities about them. I also know several former Amish. It wasn't easy for them to make the break, but none of them regret it.Somebody said Old Order Amish won't use rubber tires-I never heard that one before. The Old Order Amish in Holmes County Ohio have no trouble with that. You see lots of nice bicycles being used.John Svenson, builder, remodeler, NE Ohio
Svenny---
if you ever have the need--check out Yoder Lumber in millersburg.
I bought some quarter sawn white oak from them in late 2007----the place is HUGE and appears to be staffed entirely withAmish/Mennonite Really excellent selection of Ohio hardwoods-just huge amounts and also some really WIDE stuff if you need it( red oak,white oak,walnut,cherry,maple------and again--BIG stuff Very friendly, very helpfull.you are right about the bikes----you have to watch what time Of day you deal with them----- I think( at least around millersburg) they work different hours than we are used to--about 3;00 in the afternoon a FLOOD of bikes hit the road to head for home( maybe has something to do with milking times?)Stephen
I've been going to Yoder's for years. Good hardwood lumber at a very reasonable price. Mostly small amounts for special projects.
Bought a truckload of cherry from them a few years ago for a bookstore I remodeled in Medina. (It was a total gut job) I pretty much had a mill set up at the job, so I bought it all skip planed and saved a bunch of money. Of course, you trade time for money, but that was a winter project and it was a pleasure working all that wood down to the sizes I needed.
I got the ash for the baseball bat I made for Calvin and Joyce at Riverfest from Yoder's.
I've seen plenty of plump Amish, young and old, down there in Berlin, Millersburg, and Kidron.
You ever been to Keim Lumber in Charm, or Lehman's Hardware in Kidron?
John Svenson, builder, remodeler, NE Ohio
I have been to Lehmans several times
never been to Keim-----but see the signs a lot the stuff from yoder- i felt was a bargain--- i had it partially processed---- ripped and plannered to specific dimensions which saved me a ton of drudgery he had a room in yoders with some unusual stuff--- some boards like 18" wide and maybe 12-14 feet long---just totally unavailable up here I saw an amish crew roofing and old house up here in akron last summer on West Market Street--- I wouldn't mind having an amish sub crew for that---almost stopped to get a number but was really rushed that day--went back later and they were done and gone but seriously-- i never see chubby ones younger than middle aged--and the transactions are pleasantly efficient--ESPECIALLY compared to typical retail transactions where the "english" cashier is offended that she has to take time out from talking to the next cashier over in order to ring up your sales
stephen
Never saw an Amishman on a bike! My first construction job was mason's helper to an Amish crew building a 3 story stone house. They had an English mud man running the gas mixer, and me to get their stones. I had to run the loader to get the stones up where they were working on the scaffolding. They didn't mess with motors and such.And you're right about raunchy... those guys kept us in stitches all day, and only stopped working at lunch, which they took at 1 cause it made the afternoon go faster.I worked with a happy amishman in a tree nursery. A very funny guy, but totally happy.And pies, my parents home was surrounded by Amish, one sold pies on market on Saturday morning... we were over there every Friday night... Now you see this one-eyed midget
Shouting the word "NOW"
And you say, "For what reason?"
And he says, "How?"
And you say, "What does this mean?"
And he screams back, "You're a cow
Give me some milk
Or else go home"
You mean these Amish-built "fireplaces" might not be the apex of quality craftsmanship?
http://www.heatsurge.com/craftsmanship.cfm
"Real Amish Craftsmanship goes into each mantle The Amish take extraordinary pride in their innate craftsmanship ability."
You don't suppose it's just marketing?
I laugh at that ad in particular! They tie the product to that percieved 'aura'AND IMPLY THAT THERE IS SOME MAGIC IN THE PRODUCT THAT WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE.
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Piffen,
Svenny is near me-and may have different experience---but from what I have seen around here the Amish crews worked primarily tract housing---and the workmanship was typical for for that level of work----nothing admirable and nothing shamefullMy interaction with amish would be most likely as they work in restraunts( Hartville kitchen?) or work as cashiers( hartville hardware)---- I try to buy most of my bigger tools from hartville hardware----the cashiers are often what appears to be 15 year old girls---quiet,efficent, competent same thing in restraunts--quiet efficient ,competent totally off-base here--but I have NEVER seen a fat or chubby amish/mennonite, male or female under the age of 50 or so-----and the transactions are always flawless so---,personally I tend to view them favorably---although I admidt my perception was formed very early by pie i am 46-----35-40 years ago when i was a kid my parents took us camping for a week or two to a state park which was near an amish area.-there was a farm nearby that ran a small pie baking businessTuesdays, thursdays and saturdays.
we would go on thursday-pick up a pie----and place an order for saturday---saturday you ordered for tuesdays pick up and so on out by the road was a little building--maybe 10x16--probably used to be a milkhouse---that kind of glazed cinderblock they used to build school cafeterias out of----amish lady would take your order and write your name and your order in magic marker right on the wallanyhow--we did that for several years----and then some meddlesome organization shut them down----man oh man were those pies good-- i can still taste those crusts!!!!!!!!! I haven't had a pie that good in probably 35 years--and that includes "AMISH COOKING" restrauntsstephen
Correct you are!
How do you know / understand the Amish?
There must have been some other residence before the island, PA? OH?
JimNever underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
I am Mennonite
Sort of an Amish-Light in a green bottle, LOL
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That 'splains everthin!
Went to grade school with 3 kids from a Mennonite family - learned some there, then much later in high school I did a research paper on the Amish.
Pretty good Amish populations nearby, Dover, DE, and Lancaster County, PA.
JimNever underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
do you really think all those amish made cabinets are made using hand saws and chisels? Those cabinets are pretty much the same construction and quality as any other, more money though, of course. I have often heard the stereotyping that amish don't use any electricity or anything else modern, but have seen many examples of that not being always true. I heave never heard anyone say amish couldn't use zippers...sounds a bit urban legend to me, but what do I know. Reference:
"Working wood without electricity. How Amish woodworkers convert modern machines to operate off of a diesel-driven lineshaft, hydraulic pressure, and air power."
FINE WOODWORKING #56 Jan-Feb 1986 pg. 72gkedit: wasn't there a newer FHB or FWW article about amish workshops?
Edited 12/15/2008 10:53 pm ET by Dreamcatcher
On the zippers - that is because one original primary doctrine was that of Peacemaking and not being involved in military. Back at the time of the reformation, remember that in Europe, the (Catholic Roman) church was much corrupted by political involvement in state affairs, the Crusades, etc..So the Amish eschewed all things military, not just service in the army. military people liked shiny brass buttons, and mustaches, and were first to develope and accept some other modern conveniences, such as zippers, all things avoided by Amish as a protest symbol against military involvement.
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All this emphasis on pacifism ... but, IIRC, in WW2 the two most highly decorated American units were the ones composed of "Japanese" citizens ... and Pennsylvania Dutch farmers.
Sounds like they'll join the right war.
There's a big difference between pacifism and a non-violence stance.
At first glance it wouldn't seem so, but it does make sense after you've studied it.
From what I've heard the Mennonites are non-violent. They don't believe violence is a justifiable method to bring about change.
But they aren't passive. On the contrary, they are very active in changing what they can. And believe God is actively bringing about change as well.
I just wanted to state that difference.
There were Amish and Mennonites imprisoned fo rrefusing to join the military in WWI. It was their case that made CO status possible today.When you say PA Dutch, you are talking about a very broad classification of immigrants and their descendants from northern Europe with many different denominational background from Catholic, to Lutheran, baptist, Quaker, and some AMish and Mennonites.Are you sure you want to keep on with this train of thought? Every statement you've made about them so far shows that all you know is half-baked myths and your own assumptions.
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Only half baked? Half the fun is being enlightened ...
So how 'bout electricty is allowed to milking parlors, they use hooks instead of buttons, not sure about the zippers. If they can't get into a field they can hire the work out, sometimes to a steam engine. Rubber tires are supposed to be out, but I did see them using them last time I was in Lancaster. They can ride in cars and such. New Order can drive.
Loud colored shirts and dresses are ok. And compared to Shakers, their work is shoddy... I don't get your point, either... Now you see this one-eyed midget
Shouting the word "NOW"
And you say, "For what reason?"
And he says, "How?"
And you say, "What does this mean?"
And he screams back, "You're a cow
Give me some milk
Or else go home"
Our last house was in rural Kansas. We were in the biggest county in KS at the very edge. The rural electric CO ran lines a long way to our house and our electric went out at least 5 times a year. Since our house was at the end of the line it was not the highest priority because there was very few customers behind us.
KS gets high winds and ice storms all the time. It would make sense to get a generator.
"KS gets high winds and ice storms all the time. It would make sense to get a generator."It sounds like it would make more sense to get a few wind turbines and make your own electricity. In those times you are hooked up to the electric co. you could be selling power back to them. That's what gets me sometimes...the things people complain about the most could be their saving grace if they just looked at it logically. Get to makin' that lemonade. Live in the desert...use the sun
Live in the dust bowl...use the wind
Live by the ocean...use the tide
Live in Michigan...use the unemployed auto workers ;-)
I agree with you. But we were only there for a short term and barely made it out.
We were in an agricultural area and people were spend thrifts. So sinking money into a sinking ship would be foolish.
Many parts of KS's economy are stagnant or in decline. Sadly that is true for many parts of the US.
Hopefully our government puts some strong tax encentives in place for alternative energy. Otherwise it won't go far. Well not until we run out of oil.