We all know there is a shortage of young people going into the trades. I teach in a career and technical school (we used to call it vocational) where the quantity of my students is going down. What can I do to recruit students? I also try to bring in adults and have success with that (young twenties usually). There are many options for students in this school district (Columbia, MO) and the competition is tough. Any ideas to keep my numbers up is greatly appreciated. By the way, we do build a new house from start to finish each year. We don’t use a canned shop curriculum.
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Please , whatever you do do not quit doing what you are doing!!
I am thrilled to see that after 40yrs. of the educational system closing/gutting and ignoring the trades education that some areas are finally bringing it back into the schools.
Who did all the highly educated school administrators think was going to maintain and build their schools, homes vehicles ? And now they complain about the shortage of skilled trades people and complain about the labor costs. Arghhh!!
Get the district administrators to admit that working with your HANDS and BRAIN is a RESPECTABLE and HONORABLE thing to do !! Teach youngsters that there is no inherent Superiority to any given position in life.
Edited 1/10/2007 1:56 pm ET by dovetail97128
The administrators at my school are all for my program. Other schools,???
All support in any district is certainly appreciated, especially from counselors, or anyone students trust.
Just a thought... Have you talked with the local Habitat for Humanity to see if they know some motivated people? ...just a thought.
Best to you and yours, Chris.
Some say I know too much.
if there were a demand for your students you would have no problem getting them to attend your classes.
do a market study and make some calls to local employers to find out about how many they need and what they will pay. try to find out what the students can expect to earn over the span of their career. and show your students in a brief report what your training and education will provide compared to some of the other possible career choices out there and your school will sell itself.
now if all the studies and reports show that the prospective students will make more money persuing other careers you can at least be ahead of the curve and start looiing for another job now!
P.S. if employers would rather hire illegal immigrants (or even new legal immigrants) because they work harder for less money (doesn't every small business person want that in employees?) you may want to consider taking foreign language classes and attempt to train the people that are actually doing the work.
I teach diesel technology for a technical college. The majority of my students are sponsered by their employer. That's becoming a trend in technical education because of the shortage of qualified manpower in all trades and industries these days.
Our program is conducted by Caterpillar and has been in existence for 7 years. We have two other programs at our school that have also been modeled after this one and are aponsered by major corporations. Most of the students who apply for these programs get turned down due to poor test scores on the entrance exams. The fullest classrooms on campus every year are the remedial courses that cover basic math and english. Strangely, every student in those classrooms has a high school diploma or GED. So much for those credentials.
I went through public school several decades ago. The government was only spending a fraction of the current amount it spends on education these days. Yet, most of those who graduated way back were reasonablly literate. And almost everyone was required to participate in some kind of vocational training BEFORE leaving high school. Heck, I learned more skills in FFA in the 60's than most kids learn in the average vocational curriculum today, because so many students can't (or won't) read, write, or deal with numbers.
MichaelNew knowledge is priceless.
Used knowledge is even more valuable.
Our "area" vo-tech school pulls from 3 counties. All sorts of trades from beauty schooling, bldg, auto, welding, landscaping, etc. A well run and evidently decently funded program.
I worked with the carpentry class last year on a project to raise funds for an outreach program through Family Court. This might be an interesting offshoot offered in addition to your home construction and regular instruction.
However, one very worthwhile thing I found out about the carp. program was their placement of some juniors, mostly seniors in a work study situation with local contractors. Book/shop work in the a.m., leave late morning to work for the contractors. These were the best students, the ones that showed real interest in continuing in the trade. Gave them experience and a pay check.
Best of luck.
A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
the problem we have is, we have schools that turn out 100 of students that will never find a job inthat skill. the only purpose of the school is to keep the teachers employed. Jobs like aviation maintance, autocad, and hvac. Yes there are some jobs but not 300 every 90 dys.
Interesting.
My son, now 25 was able to read/write , do math and had a great interest in any and all shop classes. Intelligent enough and educated enough to gain acceptance into several colleges. (he chose Antioch College in Ohio).
The local school district closed every single option available in the area of the trades to the local students. FFA and 4-H had pulled out yrs. before with the exception of agricultural oriented classes given outside the school.
The final straw was the small engine class being closed and the space converted to a weight room for athletes (paid for by athletic supporters). That was the last of the "trades" oriented classes available. From that point on he had no interest in any part of school, just endured it until he could graduate. Quite a difference from some other districts I read about on this thread. One district just south of me just re-opened (within the last 2 yrs) a trade/high school after a 30 yr lapse, cited a need for that type education.
The number one major in universities is accounting. That ought to tell us something.
The Apprentice on TV is glorified by the greedeaters who claim to make big bucks. When was the last time Donald Trump was portrayed as someone who nearly went broke. When was the last time he was portrayed as someone who made his money on the tails of his dad.
We do not push vocational education. We do push big bucks with no physical labor. American students today want a sit down job that pays well. Kids today hardly have to take any PE in school. If they do not sweat in PE what makes one believe that the same person would want a job involving physical labor.
If you go to Phoenix you will see many well run trade schools that are demanding and are full.
Remember that there are a lot of high schools which will not let a trade school or college come in and recruit students. When I taught high school I regularly invited trade schools and employers in to speak and recruit students.
Times are good so students feel no need to get an education. So many employers are looking for a warm body just to do the job. When times get tough there will be many more because the job market will be much more competitive.
I know one school that has a well done CD and gives it out as a recruiting tool. The military sends those same students a CD about their program paid for by American taxpayers.
The junior colleges are receiving a lot more funding than they once did. I am sure that has made quite a difference on trade schools too. A lot of universities have articulation agreements with junior colleges. Should a student from a trade school decide to go to a university very few if any of the hours will transfer. At one time they would but not now. In a sense it is self preservation. So many universities are competing for research dollars so that they in effect get professors for free. Often the research dollars granted are applied to the professor's salary. A lot of the research dollars come from taxpayer money and given out by the government.
A lot of U.S. universities are very busy recruiting and advertising in foreign countries for foreign students but not in America for American students.
Edited 1/10/2007 9:48 pm by gb93433
I think if you could find local industry that would agree to provide partime or summer jobs for students in your program you might attract more students...
the other area I think is needed is maybe not a full course... but maybe try to attract the students who are interested in design, engineering, drafting ect... that will in most cases go on to a full college education but at least they will have hands on skills... you'd be surprised at the people i get that want to come work for free from the local art/design school just so that they can get their hands dirty...
with the 200 TV shows about design and building these days it has almost added a "glamor" factor to working with tools. material and building...
make it sexy... and your class will be overflowing
p
I went to tech school in Carpentry back when it was still called Vo-tech in 1990.
At that time, the school was expanding its programs in the high tech fields.
The high school I had went to was disbanding shop classes as obsolete. If it didn't involve a computer, they didn't care.
I get the impression high school teachers and counselors thought Carpentry was a program to dump their low acheiving students.
The really sad part about it was every day at lunch, the guys in the high tech fields would make a point to eat with me. They were eager to find out what I learned. They were very interested in Carpentry, but got talked out of it by a relative, teacher or counselor. Sadder yet, they didn't seem all that excited about what they were learning.
The root of the problem is that our educational system does not respect the trades.
The image has to be changed somehow. There has to be a realization not everyone wants to be an office drone.
The image has to be changed somehow. There has to be a realization not everyone wants to be an office drone.
I think that image changes everytime they get handed a labor bill for $600 from the guy who just spent 4 hrs at their house replacing a door....
A friend lives in a fairly upscale community. On a Sunday their well quit and his wife wanted to do laundry. The guy next door owns a plumbing business. He pulled the well and got them fixed up.My buddy is amazed that:The crew charged him $300 or $400That his neighbor has a nice house and a new Lexus and he's a "plumber".Why should that be so remarkable?
Because, umm, I mean the guy touches poo for a living fer cryin out loud! How can someone who touches poo make that much money!
(the same way the guy that touches human entrails does . . . .)
http://jhausch.blogspot.comAdventures in Home BuildingAn online journal covering the preparation and construction of our new home.
That his neighbor has a nice house and a new Lexus and he's a "plumber".
Why should that be so remarkable?
I traded houses several times and ended up in an executive addition.
The guy who lived next door stops and wants to know who IM working for ?
One mean azz woman. <G>
Tim
ROTFLMAO!! You made my day.
The root of the problem is that our educational system does not respect the trades
I agree.
blue "...if you just do what you think is best testing those limits... it's pretty easy to find exactly where the line is...."
From the best of TauntonU.
The root of the problem is that our educational system does not respect the trades.
The vocational programs weren't pushed when I was in high school, either. The up and coming "high tech" jobs were. FORTRAN 77 or COBOL was the latest and greatest thing to learn. Students in the vocational trade programs had stereotypes just like the students in the computer classes. The vocational programs that were available "in house" when I was in school were dismantled over 10 years ago.
Today, it is more than the educational system.
I encounter plenty of white collar people that have little or no respect for tradespeople. It is not much of an assumption to believe that those attitudes are taught to their kids.
It takes many years for a tradesman to become a Master or Journeyman. The level of education and skill is no different than a MD or PhD, but we do not get expensive pieces of sheepskin to put on the wall. Therefore, our skills are not perceived to have the same value as the degree holder. This keeps wages down.
Residential and commercial builders do not value the skills of the trades, either. That is apparent because they force bid prices so low that the only way for a contractor to get the work is to keep wages low (illegals, no benefits, etc.), or pay decent wages but the time spent on the project is slashed. Obviously, there are some high end builders out there that appreciate skill and quality, but they certainly seem to be in the minority.
I couldn't begin to list the number of plans drawn up by degree holding "professionals" where I have fixed major mechanical design flaws, yet those "professionals" made their money and perceive me as "overpaid labor". Yeah, just try and submit an RFI to make them come up with the solution that they are paid for- the job will wait.
I have noticed an increasing trend for employers to "hire and fire" compared to long term employment. Some of that may be because I am in a union, and it is easier to hire and fire from a union hall than placing want ads. However, loyalty is a two way street. Employers want "above and beyond" performance, yet those same employers do not hesitate to lay you off the instant it gets slow- forgetting all the time you saved them on the job.
I see disturbing trends on jobsites... Schedules come before safety... Crews of non-English speaking workers led by one that speaks English... Companies consisting of one American citizen with his own private and poorly paid illegal workforce... Instead of framer, plumber, sheet metal, electricain, drywall, tile, trim it is framerplumbersheetmetalelectriciandrywalltiletrim all at the same time.
I have two current AWS welding certifications (out of thousands), but it still takes time and skill to meet those specific parameters for the certifications. I hear plenty of radio ads about "welder shortages", and there have even been print articles about welder shortages. Ever checked the want ads for welders? I have- couldn't find much of anything paying over $15.00 an hour around here. Good thing I have other skills.
Given the current immigration issues and traditional "blue collar" and "middle class" workers left holding the bag as companies continue to outsource, all I see is a growing skilled labor pool that will continue to depress wages in the trades. Probably not a whole lot different than the rest of the job market, but certainly nothing to jump for joy over, either.
Excellent discourse Danski.
blue"...if you just do what you think is best testing those limits... it's pretty easy to find exactly where the line is...."
From the best of TauntonU.
excuse the hijack please, noticed that you are certified welder and am curious, i am also certified, and learned to weld when i saw the demand for welding after the earthquake in the bay area ca (the one during the world series) in the union with journeyman advancement classes.
i am curious what specific certs you maintain as current, and what applications they are for and why?
the reason i ask is that when i moved to the east coast (north carolina) i was surprised to learn that very few people here have even heard of Lincoln NR 232, (also known as E71T-8) and nobody uses it, whereas on the west coast (i love to do this) i would go up to a jobsite and say i was looking for work and they would begin to give me the brush off (i think its like a reflex!) until they find out i am certified in 232 and then they start falling all over themselves, anyways, is it like that in your area? do they even use 232 that you know of for structural welding? or are you in the pipe trades with no connection to the structural stuff
i couldn't agree more about our skills and training not being valued, i find it disgusting for the most part, that being said i do think it is an economic issue. if we were paid we would be respected and valued, with what seems a constant influx of cheap labor (even though the newbies are usually not very good, especially at first and barely doinig minimally acceptable work)
No pipe or structural for me, just sheet metal.
My AWS certs are SMW121-9T/S (TIG stainless 0.125" to 0.03125" in all positions) and SMW303-9G/G (MIG {short circuit transfer} coated/uncoated {galvanized} Group 1 carbon steel 0.25" and thinner in all positions).
Those are the most common materials and processes I would encounter in my field. I want to try for a structural certification just for S&G's- all it would cost me is time to practice and $25 if I pass the cert test.
All current SMW apprentices in my area must obtain one of the two certifications above, so I also need it "just because". The union hall will certify welders through the AWS for any other job related process- not just what is listed above.
I haven't seen anyone use flux core wire for structural stuff on a jobsite around here except for one of the local floating casinos. Everything else I have seen has been stick.... but keep in mind that I have not been on any big industrial type sites.
"I get the impression high school teachers and counselors thought Carpentry was a program to dump their low achieving students.The root of the problem is that our educational system does not respect the trades."The even sadder thing is that when I did my student teaching it was often the shop teachers who complained about the students they had in their classes. I have often thought that a poor teacher can teach great students but it takes a master to motivate and train those who come not caring. If those who are in the trades do not care and respect their own profession then why should anyone else? When I began to teach I talked about how students needed to know trigonometry and possibly some calculus if they expected to be the best in their trade. I often ask today how many uneducated people build a skyscraper? When I taught high school I would challenge college prep students to solve problems such as the length of a rafter where two roofs of uneven pitches meet. In furniture making classes I challenged students to give me the length and angle of cuts needed to make a mirror or window frame for a certain width of frame. When I graded students I expected the highest quality work and excellent test scores. Most of the time the college prep students could not do that. Most of time their lowest grades were in my classes because it involved hand skills and test scores. Each year, out of 130-140 students each semester most of the time there were only about 6 As. Many of them quickly get a taste for vocational education and its intellectual demands. During my time as a high school teacher my classes almost doubled in size because I took my job very seriously and recruited good students. If students want to make it a PE class I told them to go to PE. If they wanted to fool around then I told them they were not mature enough and to come back another time. Every week they got a grade on several different areas such as attitude, quiz score, work accomplished and quality of work. I was always working on a piece of furniture in the class so they could watch me work on it. It improved the quality of the work among the students greatly. The first year I taught, my students won the first three places in a competition among several high schools. Employers wanted my students. We had such a high level program that it forced the local junior college to do a better job because my students would not take their classes. Today I am at a university and tell beginning students that construction uses almost every field of study. It uses engineers, chemists, laborers and so many others. It makes room for almost everyone. When I get done then they do not feel so low as others have often made them feel. I tell them that I started out majoring in physics.
gb93433,
Fantastic!!!!!!!
wish i had had an option like that back in about 1976.
no shop class AT ALL.
stephen
I really appreciate your attitude and dedication. My hat's off to you.I like the way you used carpentry, furniture making,etc. to make concepts "real". Regardless of what a student of yours ended up doing, they got an education in your classes.
I admire you for caring so much about it. In our school district in CA, we are fighting to keep our Voc. Ed. programs, and even talk about adding more of them, from what I hear. Unfortunately, it seems like most of our shop classes are essentially a holding tank for the lazy and rejects of the school (at least in my experience). THe other posters are right, in my opinion, and I was just talking about this a couple of days ago--society doesn't respect the trades.
A few years ago, the Bank of America had some scholarship program for high school students in 4 categories--to the best of my memory: Applied Arts, Math and Science, English, and some other one. I was chosen for applied arts (I was taking Auto,Construction, and Wood shop classes), and there was some competition in San Francisco for the scholarship. I was WAY out of place. The questions they asked us had nothing to do with what I thought applied arts were; instead, it was pretty much entirely dealing with computers and technology, not my strong point. Not one kid I spoke to that day was actually in a shop class.
I wish I knew how to get more people motived for the trades, but the best I can think of is to talk to local contractors and bring them in, and show off your projects to the rest of the school to gain interest. Talk to other schools/districts to see what works for them. My generation, as a generalization, doesn't seem to have the work ethic and desire to sweat, though I hope you have better luck where you are.
Funny how you brought this up. I received the same award from Bank of America in 1981. I competed with the other catalglories and still won for the over all school district.
What finally killed me was when it went to the SoCal region, the "judges" were all white collar executives and the discussion went towards the business and new information era. At that point, I didn't really know much about computers, if any at all. I could tell that once I stated that I had been accepted into the James Krenov woodworking program in Northern Calif. You could see that they were no longer interested in asking me any more questions. It didn't help when I stated that no matter how much "white collar professions" there were, they would still need skilled trades to do the manual work that computers/large machinery couldn't do.
A year later, I was asked to attend a "think tank" kinda of meeting with memebers of my old high school and school distric. The wood shop teacher seemed to trying to prove that they still needed his woodworking program for the students. What really disturbed me was that he had changed his classes to basically use air nailers. There was no emphasis on hand tools, sharpening chisels, design, etc.
I ran into him a few years ago and he was still teaching wood shop and all shop classes has closed and there were going to close his when he retired.
Now Govenor Arnold is talking about reinstituting industrial arts/trade schools back into the state educational system. He says he was a product of them in his beginning. I guess he is having troubles finding talented/skilled workers for his own home<G>
I ran into him a few years ago and he was still teaching wood shop and all shop classes has closed and there were going to close his when he retired
It is quite understandable that the schools would eliminate the trades from their basements. Their goal is to produce as many college bound people as they can...after all, they got their jobs because they graduated from college with education certification. The entire system is rigged to self sustain itself. They value book learning, not skills learning.
blue"...if you just do what you think is best testing those limits... it's pretty easy to find exactly where the line is...."
From the best of TauntonU.
This is not really an answer to your question but some thoughts about high school tech programs.
I'm an industrial arts (technology education is the latest phrase) teacher at a small public high school in Connecticut. We have about 500 students and two shop teachers. I've been here 11 years and started right out of college.
What I do is different than what our Vo-tech schools. I teach multiple courses automotive, electricity and electronics, wood working, construction, robotics, electric vehicle design, and a introductory level class that covers al little of everything. We also teach CAD both mechanical and architectural, graphics, and photography. Students take these courses as electives.
Here are some observations from my experience.
1. Not a lot of guys are going into teaching the trades/ industrial arts. Connecticut consistently has a shortage of instructors. Most of the guys I went to college with found jobs in industry. If they do go in to teaching 75% leave in the first five years.
2. Programs are being cut. Administrators can't find a teacher so they see it as an opportunity to cut the most expensive courses offered in the school.
3. The Tech programs that flourish are the ones where someone takes ownership in the program. It is heart breaking to see a program that someone ran and cared for for 35 years die off because lack of instructors or worse lack of committed instructors.
4. Student are the same through out time. Yeah their music is awful and there pants three sizes to big . But they do care, they are interested and if they know you care about them and how they do they will step up to the plate and achieve.
5. The support is not always there. When I was first hired I was 22 with no idea what teaching really was. Our principle at the time cared little about the program. I don't remember him visiting the shops once during my first year. It was pretty much there's the tools there's the kids do what ever you want but keep the student discipline problems out of my office. Looking back, I can see why we lose so many teachers, there is no support structure, it is sink or swim.
5. Programs can flourish, ours was doing poorly when I started. I was lucky enough to come on board with another new energetic shop teacher. We were able to build connections with business and industry (we got more money and equipment donated than we could through the school) We were also able to pull in help. Guys who let us see their job sites, technicians who would work with our kids in the shops, engineers who would teach a lesson , machinist who helped fix tired equipment.
6. We utilized competitions to motivate students and build enrollment. Programs like http://www.usfirst.org/ and http://www.electrathonamerica.org/. These programs also brought in recognition from the principle (a new principle) and board of education. We were no longer those guys down in the basement of the school. Instead the principle started bringing visitors to see our program and robots.
7. The kids want this stuff, they love this stuff. They're here after school, during study hall, on weekends. Getting removed from shop for a day is often considered a worse punishment than a suspension.
8. We need to stop celebrating basketball players and rock stars and start celebrating scientist, tradesmen, engineers, mathematicians... Until we do we will continue to fall behind the rest of the world. Students need to know working in a trade can be rewarding financially and personally. That is not the message they get from the media today.
Best post Ive read so far and worth my visit , thanks .
Tim
I always thought if I needed extra money, I would teach construction to homeowners at night. Homeowners would gladly pay $20 a night to learn the tricks of the trades. The popularity of Hometime and This Old House verifies the need at local schools
Can't do that in Oregon without a degree and teaching certificate.
What can I do to recruit students?
Start paying more for new housing and the contractors will be able to pay a living wage to apprentices. Then, laborers will want to become apprentices. You will therefore have a demand for your services.
blue
"...if you just do what you think is best testing those limits... it's pretty easy to find exactly where the line is...."
From the best of TauntonU.
This maybe a sarcastic reply, but just by charging more doesn't mean that the workers/employees will get more, it means that the business owner will make more. If the (most)business owners can find cheaper workers, they will find a way to hire them.
This is no different in any industry
This maybe a sarcastic reply, but just by charging more doesn't mean that the workers/employees will get more, it means that the business owner will make more
Sarcasm noted but there is a lot of truth in your statement. The reality is that the business owners SHOULD be able to turn a profit and make more, but they don't...so therefore they have no reason to provide long term income and benefits to their employees. Its a viscous circle.
blue"...if you just do what you think is best testing those limits... it's pretty easy to find exactly where the line is...."
From the best of TauntonU.
midmoteacher,
I would take a decidedly contrarian approach.
I would consider myself basically a working tradesman---that's the basic skill set. what makes the $$$$ is applying those basic skills to business---- thinking critically.
1) I firmly believe that right now---today ---is AS good-even BETTER a time to enter the trades than EVER before
2) the reason is already outlined above--- the current educational system--along with at least 2 generations of parents has worked to DISCOURAGE young, reasonably bright people from working with their hands----- this creates HUGE opportunities for a reasonably bright hard working person
3)currently the educational system is run by folks who did pretty well in school. They equate success with achieving educational milestones, diplomas---and a job-------and they encourage parents and students to think the same way------but that is a very limmited way of thinking
4)---- if you looked at the most financially successful people posting on this format-------------- I suspect most of them haven't actually collected a paycheck in 20 years or more------- business is the oportunity
5) in my trade-- I can hire younger faster men than me-------- with basic tradeskill competence----------- for $12-$15/hour.So--if I had to take a job--a paycheck---that's about all I could hope to make-$12-$15---------------- from that perspective---trades are not a good "employment" situation
but with basic business applications--- I can leverage those basic tradeskills into a billing rate 8 or 10 times that with attention--and 5 times that everyday all day if I choose
THAT's the opportunity
6)--instead of schools trying to herd trouble makers and dummies into the trades----they SHOULD be selling it as a business studies opportunity.
7) in the posts above--blue mentions construction isn't a good business opportunity------it's all relative in my opinion. If you are looking for a business opportunity comparable to the next Geico, Microsoft,Google, GM or whatever-----sure it's not good--and it never has been------but viewed another way--it's OUTSTANDING--it always has been---and it get's better every year
8)-- you should sell this----as training for and entry into owning your own business.
DO NOT sell it as job training--it's never been a good job
but I think it's a good business
9)----- high school graduate----- get's entry level job$10/hour---over the next 4 years he learns basic competence in his trade, aquires good, basic tools up to table saw,scm saw and a basic truck---AND if he lives at home with mom and dad and assumes a basic college student lifestyle he can save $5-10,000/year.
At the end of 4 years--- he has the basics of his trade down, has the basic tools, has made contacts, has probably been doing lucrative side jobs for several years, owes ZERO and has cash in hand $25,000--$50,000.
what are his option???????? he has so many, I don't know if I could list them all
ASK Tim Mooney here what he could do with those skills, $50,000 and 22 years old---plus he is already employed.
compare that to our young friends peers----who still have another year to go to graduate with a polisci degree, and already owe $30,000-----and are looking forward to a job at $7/hour a Borders or Starbucks---and wondering if they will EVER get a real job.
Our young tradesman????? he is now poised to make some serious money. In my market he could turn that $50,000 into stakes in more than 5 rental houses almost immediately---while maintaning his present employment--------- before he was 30-he could be prettywell retired from working for other people
He has MANY other options as well-like I said--too many to list.
Previously--Pony mentioned a tradesman charging $600 to change out a door----- that's a whole'nother opportunity-------------cash flow,cashflow,cashflow-------------
really sorry--i am just getting going-gotta run to a family gig---
more later,
Stephen
Stephen, you pretty much sumarized why it's better to study business, then hire a carpenter. The carpenters generally don't earn enough to support their family unless they learn business.
When I entered the trades as a young man with two kids, I could support my family and let my wife stay home to raise the kids. I did that with carpenter wages, and zero business skills. Ten years later, I could say the same thing. Within five years after that, that ideal has slipped away. Today, a young man who tried to raise a family on carpenter wages will destin his wife and kids to poverty.
My young nephew on the other hand learned business and accounting skills and landed a white collar job that allows him to buy a new car, house and raise a family.
I don't dispute that there are business opportunities (Im not bullish about construction, but the bigger dealers will flourish on chep labor), but the immediate future for tradesmen is dismal indeed. After all, they are the cheap labor fueling the big business pipeline.
You particular method of making a go in the business is foolproof. It alwasy was and always will be there, to some degree. Will it work enmasse? I think not. There's only so many guys like you that can thrive and flourish working alone in your neighborhood, eh? If you graduate thirty tradesmen per neighborhood in a quality business/carpenter program every year, pretty soon you'd be looking at everyother guy in the neighborhood competing with you in your own game.
Summed up: the tradesman should be able to survive in the marketplace as a wage earner, not a business man. If conditions are such that it's really business skills that are needed, it's probably not a good economic climate for tradesmen and their daddy's will steer them out of it. I don't want my grandkids picking up a hammer down there in Austin even if there is a great school for them.
blue"...if you just do what you think is best testing those limits... it's pretty easy to find exactly where the line is...."
From the best of TauntonU.
nothing would make me happier than my grandchild picking up a hammer if they liked their job half as much as i do. i'm not in the business to get rich. i live comforatably and enjoy what i do, you could do a lot worse, lots do.
I agree.
My father once commented that the richest man in the world may be the guy who spends all day slinging hash at some greasy spoon for minimum wage if he truely enjoys what he does and has a circle of friends and family that he loves and love him.
One persons success is anothers failure.
"nothing would make me happier than my grandchild picking up a hammer if they liked their job half as much as I do. I'm not in the business to get rich. I live comfortably and enjoy what I do, you could do a lot worse, lots do."
There's the truth.
Go for contentment and right livelihood.
Best way to train future tradespeople is to hire good folks who've had a go at working solo and found out how tough it can be. Train them and treat them right and hang on to them. I do think there is a place for running some apprentices through the company to haul boards and sand and get a good start.
here, here. coming from a family of successful cotractors that was music to my ears. i chose my occupation, it wasn't lack of opions.
Im stealing that post and I think you know where Im gonna put it .
Thanks .
Tim
An interesting thread and some very good comments, particularly from Blue and Stephen. Here in Australia we are faced with similar problems.
1. Getting young people interested in the trades ( at least we haven't gutted the vocational side of our schools yet)
2.Training them and then loosing them once their time is up.
Because we are locked into a formal training agreement here ( typically 4 year apprenticeship) along with legislated wage structure, mandatory trade school attendance of up to 6 weeks per year on full pay, there is employer resistance to take on an apprentice, train them,pay them and then loose them as competition at the end of the four years.
I sometimes think that we should be looking back to the days of Paul Revere when an employer was paid to take on the apprentice.
Some schools hare have commenced a School based apprenticeship program in which they work a couple of days a week and their school holidays for the last two years of their High school years with an employer, the time spent being credited toward their apprenticeship. It allows a young person to get a taste of the trade but still allow them the option to bail and try another stream if not satisfied. There is no great benefit to the employer that I can see.
regards
Mark
train them,pay them and then loose them as competition at the end of the four years.
Thats the number one reason why many skilled guys withold their secrets from their peers. No one wants to enlighten the younguns because they'll leave you for a song and dance anyways. A lot of us old curmudgeons would rather just do it ourselves and only let the bare minimum out. As soon as a guy starts getting good enough to make more money, they get rid of him and start over. No one really ever learns the trade. After all, it might take fifteen or twenty years to get really good at what we do. It's not rocket science, but it does take skill and experience.
blue"...if you just do what you think is best testing those limits... it's pretty easy to find exactly where the line is...."
From the best of TauntonU.
blue,
I was just getting revved up yesterday---when I had to leave to go to a "family party" of sorts.
the people at the party--illustrate my position almost ideally-------- this was a gathering of friends we have had for 30 years and more--stretching all the way back to grade school in some cases------ many of us are godfathers and godmothers to each others kids------ and pretty much all of us enjoy" aunt and uncle status" with our friends kids---and are referred to as such-----------
people in attendance
a) a doctor and her husband who is the stay at home dad to 2 delightfull little girls( he is a retired painting ,wallpapering and interior remodeling contractor)
b)a middle level manager for a grocery store chain and his wife who is a nurse( nurse by the way recently saved the life of a man ---1 of 3--who were struck by lightning at their sons soccer game---totally brought the dude back from the dead--the guy was actually SMOKING--with his shoes,pants etc blown clean off)
c)a phd in chemistry/toxicology---and her husband a professional violinist
d)a teacher-and her husband a real estate appraisser and speculator
e) a middle level manager and his wife a middle school music teacher
f) a dumb roofer and my wife a grade school teacher
now-------- with a couple of notable exceptions- the people at this gathering AND their peers---------- either can-not or will not
cut their grass, change their oil, change a flat tire, fix a leaky faucet-let alone replace a toilet, hang a door, replace a bay window, replace a water heater etc.
THAT--is why today is THE BEST time it has EVER been--to enter the trades
As a JOB--not so good.- I do Not think throughout history that it has EVER been really good as a job-EVER----- but I think it has always been a good small business opportunity
Pony--earlier mentioned $600 to change out a door-- yesterday morning I had 3 "selling opportunities"-------
#1-a few blocks away------remove existing door and jamb and interior casing and remnants of storm door. install new pre-hung( it will fit like a dream- new interior casing, new stormdoor and wrap exterior jamb in aluminum.
my labor charges will be quite in line with Ponys price( his is a few dollars higher)--- doors and materials will be in addition
#2 a small roof repair-replace 3 shingles---$105------( 10 minutes tops)
#3 a small commercial building replace rubber roof------ personally i am not interested in theis one------------ but for someone else it's a good opportunity
As a service business------- these are really good opportunities---------at the door estimate-----customer is also looking at siding and windows in the spring---and also a new furnace--additionally i turned down the chance to price out a kitchen( not interested)
service opportunities.
since our educational system is devoted to producing students that can't or won't do these things--- it's a sellers market for those of us who can or will----- but not as an employee.
the opportunity is not in working as a tradesman building new houses( market forces will almost always force that labor rate down,down,down---because the house and the commodities that go into it ARE commodities
the opportunity is in servicing those houses--5 years, 10 years--30 years down the road.
again--it's a matter of attitude-- I see our industry as perhaps the last place where Jeffersons vision of a country of self suffucient farmers and artisans---STILL operates.
the moment you go into production however( building new) 20th and 21st century economic forces screw you and you become similar to a factory hand. Market mentality turns your labor into a commodity to be bought and sold--and you have to compete against someone willing to do it for less---------- it's a race to the bottom.
I don't worry about the O.P.s students flooding the neighborhood markets. he could graduate a hundred a year--only a small percentage of them would actually put into play the critical thinking traits needed to do what i do and advocate.
BTW blue-one more thing----- I am guessing you own a copy of " The Millionare Next Door"--------- notice how many of them have boring, un-exciting businesses like the ones I describe---- ones the casual observer would never expect to have big assets----- but in reality are cash cows generating steady streams of excess capital into other investments????? the O.P's students have outstanding opportunities---if they step off to the side,analyse the situation and proceed un-conventionally-----------.
If they proceed conventionally--then ,sure-they are fodder to be ground up in the market place gristmill
Best wishes--Stephen
I have a question for you .
If I understand your post you are not planning on doing the work yourself.
What happens to your scenario when the trades people you employ to actually do the work you are talking about start charging you the way you charge your customers? Are You going to pay them the high costs so as to encourage their entry into the business side of things and ensure their profitability or are you going to look for the cheaper competitor?
I will repeat what I have said so often.. not all trade people are in field for the dollars.. and not all people in this field are trades people. Just different groups of people with different loves.. some love money and business .. some just love the work, some are a combination of both .
good questions dovetail----------
in my case I have been operating this way for YEARS.
I prefer not to have employees-- I prefer to do it ALL myself.
At age 44---- i am at the point where on larger roof projects it is impractical to do it ALL myself----and keep in mind that I do NOT want employees.
so I build relationships with a couple of sub-contractors to help out.
with roofing- my preferred subcontractor comes equiped with 5 men, dump truck, 3 additional trucks, all tools etc. He is covered by workers comp and his own liability insurance. HE set's his rate---- I do not try to impose one upon him.
On every project I do--I work hands on with my tools---that's what I enjoy---- but now I can pick and choose WHAT portions of the job I will personally do.
the subcontractors love this----because invariably I reserve the most difficult or time consuming aspects for my personal work----chimney flashing, skylight installation, ANY carpentry------- all slate,rubber, metal etc. I design the project and spec it out-I supply the materials---sub is paid before he leaves on the last day----no waiting.
working this way lets me go from being a one man band up to a 6 man show--with one phone call. the day after that project ends--I am back to being a one man band hanging doors etc. (and that one man band is where I am happiest)
you are correct---different people have different motivations. MY motivation 18 years ago or so---was to provide for my then stay at home wife,my infant son and the baby on the way----- since I made $6.50/hour as an employee---being an employee was not going to work out well--------and so here I am.
Fast forward 18-20 years--- as I said-my basic skill set can be bought on the open market from an employee at $12-15/hour.( that's part of WHY I have no employees)
remembering what it was like looking at being the sole support of a family of 4 on $6.50/hour--- i sympathize with the 22 year old making $12------ but that doesn't make me the answer-or the cause of his situation
HE( the worker) is the answer-it is HIS responsibility.
BTW-------- you want to know what happens when the sub raises his rates????
I congratulate him---since I have been encouraging him to do so for years--and i pay. In the past there have been several subs I used a lot that I currently don't use much-or at all. cost has never been the reasoning----usually it has been timing or availability( eventually they become more and more successfull--and i have to wait longer and longer for their services---so i begin to look for more available players.)
Occasionally the sub has become so busy and frantic with his own work-----that the quality on mine suffers-------and then i need someone else
but rarely has money been the problem.
If you have some specific question, I would be more than happy to answer it if at all possible,
Best wishes, Stephen
Actually not so differant than the way I operate. Getting tougher here though because of the crackdown on contractors "teaming " up.
The state wants to see one person at the top , hair splitting decisions about who makes the final decisions, does one take instruction from another etc., driven primarily by workers comp. issues.
dovetail/blue- i have suspected all along that we aren't gonna be to far apart on this eventually.
Basically-- I figure the succesfull business model for what we do------------was figured out 800-1200 years ago---and probably before that.
We operate in what is typically a "mom& pop business"
trade handed down,ideally from father to son-in the absence of that-----through an apprenticeship. historically--we know that the apprenticeship was hard to come by--and you had to PAY to get into one--that the apprentice was paid little-if at all---and basically lived as part of his masters household. upon completion of his apprenticship--he recieves Journeyman status---and might remain in the same sitution as an employee( with dim prospects0--or he might search out greener pastures-eventually taking on his own apprentice----but the operation was ALWAYS supposed to be small--and family.
the whole goal-was to be self sufficient business----THAT's Always the opportunity.
the closer we stick to that centuries old model--the more likely we are to modestly prosper
but if we let the industrial revolution creep in and influence our expectations RE: our business model---we are screwed, chewed up and spit out.
I don't think historically tradesmen living strickly from their labor have ever been particularly flush--in anything other than occasional boomtimes--- but as small mom and pop businesses--OFTEN living reasonably fat and happy.
why would I want to be any different ???-----what , I am gonna change the world?
don't think so- LOL,
Stephen
Ive gotten the opportunity to know many tradesmen over my life time . It started when I was a boy and still continues.
From my experiences which only consist of a small town in rural USA, you are right .
From the odd hours a tradesman may have as a benifit , Ive seen a lot of them living on farms raising things as a secondary income. Knowing this fully well is a fact of life here they take off at 3 pm and may not work on fridays , or may be scheduled off some time through the week and its accepted .
I know two that are bus drivers . They work for the school for their insurance and a retirement . They live off that income in the winter while they are completely off in the summer to rock and roll. One of them drives the ball team at night at away games .
I know another that works seasonal truck driving and carps the rest of the time .
Several work crops and have that as a seasonal business with carpentry as a filler of time .
So those are not even related to construction but they fall back on their skills to fill in in off times .
Tim
tim--------- i don't know quite how to phrase this---------
but you might have notice that I have gone out of my way to try to operate as if I live in that small town in rural USA------------- even though I am in a highly populated area.
If we want people to do business with us on a basis OTHER than how cheaply we will do something--we have to give them something in return besides just a high price.-------- the personal touch, the dependability, the story and glimpse into a world of work completely foreign to the customers reality------------
Ever watch the Seinfeld show years ago----remember when elaine was working for the Peterman Catalogue???????- those descriptions she had to write--short stories really about mundane objects like sweaters and coats( hand knit by trappist nuns????)
I have learned---people really LIKE that.this fall i made a couple of eyebrow windows out of quartersawn white oak-------made sure to tell the buyer WHERE I buy the oak from and why------ doing some slate work now--made sure to tell the buyer WHERE the slate came from----and that I have been keeping an eye on those 2 skids of slate for probably 5 years now----waiting,waiting---for the right project.
customers LOVE the story behind how and why--LOVE it. I am sure the story about the eyebrow window-or the one about the slate--will be repeated by those customers over and over again at parties.
I used to avoid actually meeting prospective customers( Jim Blodgett changed my mind)------- now I know that I don't have to sell--- I just have to convey my interest and enthusiasm for their project------and more often than not-----price almost evaporates as an issue-----------
gotta run,
Stephen
since our educational system is devoted to producing students that can't or won't do these things--- it's a sellers market for those of us who can or will----- but not as an employee.
Im thinking you are clearly illustrating my point.
I'm saying that it makes more sense to learn business and sell skilled services as a business. I could make a ton more money selling one skilled tradesmam. The skilled tradesman gets trapped by the realities of his craft. If he's simply a skilled tradesman, he'll fail because he isn't a skilled businessman. I know hundred of skilled guys that fit that description.
I used to love my time with my tools too, but never loved the trappings: limited income, limited free time, limited future. My wife got to stay home, and I got to raise my kids and for that I'm thankful, but being in business was the key to unleashing my inner happiness. I got to work when I wanted and do what ever projects I wanted. I'm still living that life today. Is my skill as a carpenter the key to that life? No, it is the spirit of entrepreneurship that delivers the package. My carpenter skill is a subset of that business but I'm easily replaceable...you say it yourself....there are a lot of employees and subs out there to pick from thereby diminishing their worth. The combination of business (sales and marketing) and skill is different beast though.
I guess I'd advocate my grandkids to learn a trade, as long as they also were learning how to sell and be self employed. If they don't want that life, I'd suggest something else, if they want to have an easy financial life. I'm okay with them living their life as a suffering artist though....I've been there done that.
blue"...if you just do what you think is best testing those limits... it's pretty easy to find exactly where the line is...."
From the best of TauntonU.
I work for myself butlong ago was in the carpenters union, My buddy stopped by and said they need lots of carpenters, I dont know the pay but its around 30 bucks an hour plus benifits and insurance, Thats a pretty good job, Last time i was in it was 10 bucks an hour but that gave me a good income when we were first married.
The short version is: You reap what you sow.
I've lost count of employers who both complain they can't find qualified people, and also refuse train. "I'm not training someone so they can go work for someone else" is the refrain.
Now, in a related manner, I've lost count of apprentices who planned to leave the very first chance they could, holding some resentment for the treatment they've had to tolerate for the past few years.
The local community college shares facilities with the 'vocational' school across the street. One can always tell when the kids were by; everything not locked up is either stolen or broken.
This, I suspect, is the direct result of the School District viewing the "vocational" school as the place to dump all the misfits and problem children.
The kid who actually wants to learn a trade quickly learns that such a choice is nowhere near as "respectable" as, say, going to college. Where, of course, they are further taught to sneer at those who own tools. When they graduate, they have these lessons confirmed by the pay scales.
Folks have absolutely no trouble spending $400 on the fanciest, newest "Windows Vista" program, but complain if they have to pay that much to have a toilet replaced.
Tradesmen are tired of being treated as if they carry a disease, are assumed to be former druggies and convicts, or considered dumber than a pet rock.
It once was that saying "I built it myself" was seen as proof of competence. Now, the gut reply seems to be "what, you couldn't buy a REAL one?"
Until these issues are addressed, don't expect many kids to be drawn to the trades.