Have two related questions. Thought about posting them in different threads but figured just stick them together.
1. How did you learn to be a carpenter and what type of carpenter where you/ are you ( framer, remodeler, trim/finish, etc)? Did you do an actual/traditional apprenticeship program? Did you learn on the job under the eye of a crusty old carpenter. Did you learn on your own and from your own mistakes?
How long was it before you felt adequate with your skill/ knowledge level. How long before you felt proficient, that you really knew what you where doing?
2. How do you train your inexperienced/ beginning carpenters now? Do you train them at all? Do you account for the loss of production, and if so how much, for training an apprentice (an apprentice will not be as fast as an experienced carpenter, will probably have to go back and fix mistakes; you are not as productive because you are training them). What level of quality do you hold them to, how critical of their work are you?? An apprentice’s trim joints probably aren’t going to be as tight as an experienced pro. Do you say that it could be better, but can be touched up with a little putty and glue, or do you make them take it down and do it till its perfect???
Since I’m posting this I guess I should start………
I’m for the most part self taught/ learnin’ it as I go. I have a good number of books on carpentry and building, visit Breaktime ( its a friggin’ addiction), JLC online, and Gary Katz’ website, and others as I come upon them. The problem with this is sometimes I dont remember everything to well, get it mixed up a little, or forget something altogether ( uhhmm, did we flash that window right???). Ive worked for general contractors ( remodels/renovations, additions, sometimes new construction) so done a little bit of everything.
Ive never really had the chance to train/work under one carpenter, which is something I really, really wish I could. I’ve been with 3 companies in the ~3 1/2 years Ive been working as a carpenter. In two of these companies ( current one the worse), would hop around from one project to another project, never staying with a crew for any length of time.
Thanxs for the replies,
m2akita
Replies
Hmmm, let's see...
I've always had an interest in carpentry (got that from my grandfather), so at 18 after trying other avenues, I started framing for a local residential crew. A true hardazz, he's got to be one of the best carpenters (and businessmen) I know. I spent 2 1/2 years with him full-time, all the while building sheds and doghouses on the side to hone my skills.
I left him to work for a remodeler who, while not a great businessman, taught me how to roof, lay tile and laminate floors, paint, and a slew of other tasks. He gave me the mindset of how to learn to do unfamiliar/new things.
Not long after I started framing my boss gave me an old copy of JLC, which led me to FHB and BT. Through reading everything I could, watching how others do things, I became a much better tradesman (and business owner).
Now learning business management, that a lot harder than doing the work!
Jason Pharez Construction
Framing & Exterior Remodeling
Jason,
Glad you posted!!! I was actually thinking of you when I started writing up the thread. From what Ive seen of your posts, I think you really have your stuff together. And at quite a young age ( your 23 correct???). My hat off to you. I think you would be a great person to work/learn under. Now go fill in your profile!!
Live by the sword, die by the sword....choose your sword wisely.
That's right.
Jason's whole aura has changed since taking on the mantle of contractor. He used to only half sure of himself as an employee. Then he became a self-made man, and now he has others under his wings.One of the things I enjoy reading in Breaktime is how he and others like him - dieselpig comes to mind - are showing such strong professional growth
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Thanks Paul, I appreciate the support!
I gotta say though, sometimes I'd like to just be a good employee again LOL. Especially now, between the tax stuff, applying for worker's comp, good employees quitting...ugh!
Oh yeah, we're trying to shift from remodeling: additions and replacement roofs to new construction framing. A whole new chapter is unfolding.
PS I have the utmost respect for Dieselpig, just b/c he has his stuff together, but especially for Tim Uhler...he ain't much older than I but man does he do some great work...I'd have to frame for at least 5 more years to do what he does!
Anyway, as always, a master student carpenter LOL.Jason Pharez Construction
Framing & Exterior Remodeling
Shorten that to a studmaster!firestarteer - er- I mean paperwork! Got any spare four letter words laying around?I spent most of the day today retrieving extra stuff the accountant wants to see, correcting a couple errors, and trying to contact a sub for his SS# which I neglected to get in the flurry of the moment last summer so I could do all my 1099s.here's a funny lesson - one that cost me a couple bucks...
Normally. I get everyone's tax and insurance info before they even start a job and surely before they leave with a check.
But this summer I was working some 12 hour days to get a place ready for move-in in time. My regular roofer bailed with the job 3/4s finished and my regular tile guy was overbooked. Second string guy came out of the woodwork with a good looking portfolio anmd a hole in his schedule to fit the need on my job. Done and paid a week later at a good price.
I was amoung the living dead I was so tired the day he finished. I inspected all his work but forgot to get the info. all I had twas a phone #. Called and left message a couple days ago which he ignored. So this AM I called at 6AM to catch him before he left for the day. He mumbled and grumbled something about being out all night. Took couple minutes of repeating before he could answer me then said, "Well, I guess I'll just make up some kind of number - here ya go - xxx-xx-xxxx"
I'd already paid the insurance overhead on this clown but that was fine - his price was low enough, but this piszed me off. I asked my accountant what do I do with someone like this. His answer was to forget to include him in the 1099s. The fine for that one, if they catch me is fifty bucks - vs 2-300 bucks worth of my time to follow up and make sure the info is right.Meanwhile, his reputation goes back up-stream. Just like the roofer. The way he left us high and wet got around. He left for MA a little later in the summer.Anyway, I hate paperwork - but the lesson to learn is that you can't let it slide when you are in the trenches getting muddy. That extra ten-fifteen minutes every PM is worth it come tax time. my accountant likes that I don't walk in at the last minute with a paper bag fulla slips. Just like taking a dump, the job isn't finished 'till the paperwork is done.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I read your post and It caused a smile. I guess Ill lay some kinda answer here ;
I just reluctantly added up time. Ive been working in the trades full time for 36 years.
I still use the term , practice the trades.
Im far off several here in different areas. To come here is humbling . Theres no way theres enough time to learn it all and if there was it doesnt matter for it changes from year to year . At a young age [kid] I saw my Father work from a wood tool box he made with a round wood handle. I remember his first skill saw that came in a metal case . The saw and the case was huge. He used a brace and bit and laid out with a framing square . He could have hauled his tools in a car.
I said that to say that its hard to keep up and I dont with the changing times. Knowledge that I had learned came to be obsolete as well as the tools. I grew up with most men saying that hand nailing would reign over any automatic fasteners . I saw the first of the nailing guns in this town anyway. They were Bostich and they were so heavy with 3/8ths hoses. The Bostich compressor was very heavy and so slow running at 1750 rpm, 220 volt.
The hardest to keep abreast of is the materials . How they have changed and I honestly believe they must come up with somthing new every day. We still dont have a building yard in town that will stock concrete siding . So getting trend setting materials is a struggle to stay abreast.
The changing of building styles have also changed our trades. Now comes the mini mansions at an affordable price? Yes, Im afraid so. Tons of wasted framing lumber in roofs covering normal sq footage . That calls for high pitches that are cut up requiring younger labor and lifts that telescope to 60 feet? Also requires high demands from roofers. Insulation has changed completely and what happend to panneling ? At least they havent reinvented plaster and drywall. The energy demands have changed to different identities. The trimming of house products are gettihng to be as big as a dictionary in choices. That could be its own thread.
In the paper this morning it said that my area is producing 67 percent of job growth for the state. Its concerns is the same as the car industry which worries where we will be if gasoline sets a standard of 3.00 per gallon. Theres no handle on it . We did set the low standard for factory labor but now we are losing our factories except for Tyson and the giant Walmart which we dont like depending on for long sight growth. With the higher impact of population has put a higher demand on building at affordable prices. We have answered with Spanish labor crews that dont speak English. Now , most every large crew is Spanish in "every " trade. That in its self is a change from the old bib wearing carp with greying hair . The building industry has done a real turn around with labor. Now we have paper contractors that sit in offices that are also developers. That used to be separate occupations. Ill also add design firms mixed in the same wash.
One question I pose is will the energy and gas prices curb building design? Will we build ranch again before it comes to the time that a young person will not be able to afford a new home ? Will the Not So Big A House really be the next trend?
So knowing that information , its pretty hard to answer his questions effectively. But I would advise to stay close to Breaktime.
Tim
"One question I pose is will the energy and gas prices curb building design?"Back in the seventies it did.
Things got very plain and boxy with simpler trims. Cash was not free and easy.Then as things got steaming along with the tech gains in the nineties and the price of gas dropped to a forty year low relatively speaking, we got to use all kinds of bric-a- brat trims and details. Houses got monster big McWhoppers. As higher energy prices sift available cash out of the economy, housing styles are sure to show it.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
M, Thanks man, and yes, I'm 23 (and currently buried under last-minute tax paperwork LOL).
I can tell you, the one day I was fortunate to be in Laurel with Don, Dan, Andy, Boss, etc. (sorry if I forgot someone!) was a true learning experience! We were all bantering back and forth, yet we held numerous short conversations on this vs. that, hardi vs. vinyl, etc. All in all it was great to be able to talk with people from all over the country about various practices. (Oh yeah, Jim B. and I had some great phone conversations, too after Katrina.)
I thought I had filled out my profile! Dayum, maybe that recent change w/ Prospero screwed it up. Done in a sec.Jason Pharez Construction
Framing & Exterior Remodeling
I think it takes 10 years to get decent.
20 years to get good and 30 years to get really good
I'm having a hard time wording what I'm thinking on this one.
Partly 'cause I don't call myself a carpenter. I have carpenters working for me who do better than I do on a lot of things.
There areclients and carpenters around who would say that I'm pretty good, but I know the truth. I teach myself something new every day.
But I like it that way. I have consciously gravitated to work (remodeling) where creativity is required because I got bored out of my head building tracts and doing the same work every day after day after day.
I've learned from watching others, and from reading. I have an intense desire to not only know, but to fully understand ( grok) what it is that I'm doing. so I read and talk to others ( here and at lumberyard or coffee shop) about new situations.
On things that I do know, I can instantly visualize a solution to a problem, once I understand the problem and the end result desired. I get a real kick out of problem solving. Breaktime is like a game for me in that way.
Experience is a the foundation we stand on and knowledge is the light fixture under which we look at new problems before us. Both of those take time to assemble.
A single knowledgable mentor is good , but so is a variety of experiences and situations
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin,
Why would you not consider yourself a carpenter??? I remember you stateing that in a post sometime back, and wondering why you wouldn't consider your self a carpenter. You may not consider yourself a carpenter, but you definately are a master of carpenters......not to mention the grand phoopah (sp?) of breaktime.
Seems a couple of common threads among breaktimers here is the desire to always learn (on their own, from others, from books) and to try and always improve themselves. Not to mention the addiction to home building.Live by the sword, die by the sword....but choose your sword wisely.
I got my start in commercial building. Forming, concrete, steel. After some large projects, the company I was working for changed pace and had us out building 2½ story 12 unit wood frame apartments for about 2 years. We did everything, from footings to roof, drywall, and trim. Man, I learned alot those early years from my old hands on super, Ed.
I travelled for a few more years, framing, forming, trim work, steel stud, T-bar. I even built a couple of barns. I've worked for myself and have run jobs for others.
I've found over the years that there are two types of experienced tradespeople to work under. Those who share their knowledge, and those who pretend its some big friggin secret. Of the latter, I've found that the ones who refuse to share their knowledge either fear they will be replaced by their apprentices, have little to share (and are making things up as they go along) or are just crusty old pricks.
Personally, I share everything I know with apprentices who are capable and with my peers. A tempered, open discussion of techniques, materials, successes and failures is beneficial to everyone involved.Gord
I got interested in woodworking in high school and took all the shop classes I could. Immediately after high school I attended a community college which offered a one year carpentry program. Each year the class built a house which was then sold.After I finished the year I received a carpentry diploma or a certificate which stated I had completed something like 1,000 hours of training. To be honest I really didn't have any marketable skills.Looking back I'd probably have been better off to have simply gone out and gotten a job as a laborer or helper to a carpenter and gotten paid while I was learning..++++++++++++++++
-Do the thing you fear and the death of fear is certain-
To those who may or may not be interested:Last semester of college (2004) I decided I didn't want to put my English degree to work and didn't want to go back to landscaping.Got hooked up with a guy who graduated from my school and had been running a frame to finish company for 10 years. I started lumping plywood and shingles the day after I graduated and now, almost 2 years later, I am getting better at what I do. I am a master of nothing, but the boss trusts me enough to tile, lay hardwood, interior trim, along with the framing and roofing. I may have the least experience on the crew, but I can hold my own and show up everyday expecting to learn something new.I've learned a lot from the other guys on the crew and I haunt these formus in search of hints and tips. The knowledge and skillset contained here is absolutely amazing.And hey, it's a great excuse to buy tools.
I bet you learned more in those classes than you think.
I hate the fact that so many shop or industrial arts classes are hewld in low esteem in the school systems. I see how many guys here have said they knew from a young age what they wanted to do - in this field.For myself, I took the mechanical drawing/drafting class for two years. That was the closest I ever had to a fluff class, which is what it was considered by some. I really loved it and used to to study more than pencil weight and geometry. Critical load paths and framing details always caught my attention. While I was in HS, I had a job on a farm where they let me hang doors, re-roof the house, fix gates, paint things up, etc. That is when I knew I wanted to do this stuff.But all those experts in the guidance office with their aptitude tests and SAT tests, ec had me programed to be an engineer instead. I had to sit thru calculus class instead of learning how to use a sw without cutting fingers off. See - I tested in the top 97th percentile, so the assumption was that it would be a shame to waste my mind on something stupid like carpentry. They would not recognize it as a profession worthy of respect. Prognosticate that same scene time after time, and I assume that thousands of quality people interested in joining this profession got sidetracked into some other thing. I can only imagine how much better the home building industry and quality of production might be today if more people of the quality like the rest of you here reading this thread like myself would have been encouraged to be builders 30-40 years ago. It's something that takes brains as well as brawn - somethig the brain-dead yokels in that guidance office couldn't recognize.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
" with apprentices who are capable"A lot said in that phrase. I've worked with guys who wouldn't learn a thing if I showed him five times, either from lack of ability or lack of want-to. I've learned to spot them early on, because I won't waste my time with them. All they are worth is a body on site to handle materials for a short time. I've worked with other guys who were really interested in learning and who later described me as the best teacher they ever had - not realizing that it was their attitude to learning that made me look good as a teacher.The former guys who could not learn to duck under a low beam went away thinking of me as a crusty old prick.I had worked in construction for nearly a year before I had a job with a real mentor. He was an enmgineer of some sort, working at the Albuquerce airport who built small homes and cottages in his spare time. I guess I worked for him for almost a year. I was a hippie in Taos, and he was a redneck for the city come up to build a coupole vacation cabins while on a leave of absence from his main job. We built two about 24' x 24' and did just about everything that it took to make them liveable. He took the time to teach me not only what to do, but why, and then pretty much turned me loose, just giving me a hint on production technique every now and then.After that job, I ended up specializing in roofing for much of the next twenty years. My hands were fast and my head was less than smart, so I made better money doing piecework roofing than I thought I could at carpentry. Eventually I turned around and started resurrecting the skills I had first learned, shaking the dust off them and adding too...
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Must be a mental block I guess.
I don't call myuself a contractor either...I call myself a remodelor or a builder.
That is not a step UP from carp, but a parrallel trade description. I know as much about drywall, painting, concrete, sheet metal, tile, and some of the other trades as I do about carpentry. But I don't know as much carpentry as someone who stuck to that trade for 35 years.
I don't know as much tile stuff as sdomebody who has had a life devoted to it.
Etc.
etc.
etc.even in carpentry, - we've dicussed this before, you have a broad generic description that takes in Joiners, ship-fitters, cabinet-makers, Framers, millwrights, etc...
I know something about each of those, but not as much as somebody who has a life of work and experience therein.I think the two main first things a person needs to UNDERSTAND to be any kind of a carpenter is #1 to KNOW WOOD -how it moves, cures, reats, cuts, paints, handles water, whether it is dense or brittle, how it smells and how it planes with a sharp blade...
The second is to UNDERSTRAND the stresses that wood is subjected to in the use where you plan to emply it. Critical load paths and load design are the stresses paramount to a framer. Movement and glues are important in this respect to a cabinet-maker. A ship-wright or boat builder needs to consider the stresses on joints in every direction and design those joints to hold together in all ways or be willing to attend the funerals of his customers.
A mmillwright needs to recognioze cured wood and how to get it there, and the internal stresses of various species to anticipate and deal with it in the process of making usable lumber for the trim guys and cabinet makers.If you don't understand the wood - the main material you are working with - you will have a hard time producing anything of lasting value with it.Learn to read the wood. It will talk to you.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
ONCE in a Galaxy far far away...........
1981 got laid off from afactory job I had been at since high school ...8years .26% unemployment here in OHIO at the Time . 18%interest rates on loans . AHHHH the good old days!
Got a tip some carpenter was looking for help . I had always liked carpentry and was kind of handy around the house so I thought I"d go see the guy . Nice guy ,Trim Carpenter, small crew , big house . Needed some body to schlep stuff around , clean-up , haul and tote , and help his dad (who was , what at the time seemed to be pretty old) The dad built the circular stair cases on site . Lots of sanding and clamping and glueing and sanding and cleaning etc , etc ,etc . When slow I actually got to do carpentry , but only inside of closets and no casing . Hang the cleats for the shelf and rod and install the base . I used to joke I was a closet carpenter . After maybe a year of helping and cleaning and closet work my boss gave me an old beat to hell STANLEY 060 plane .He said I could start doing the casing on the inside of the closets now . I guess I passed initiation . Any thing you need to know about cutting and fitting molding can be learned working in a closet . Cleaning-up taught me how to work neat and be organized . And working with that old man taught me about life , man I missed him . worked with that crew about nine years . Learned alot , hoped I made him some money . Time it was to move on , said my good-bys , shook hands , wished each other good luck,and that was that .had some work lined up and never looked back .
Being a trim carpenter/cabinet maker/furniture maker is about details and perfection , design and proportion . Learning how to fit a joint perfectly , efficiently takes repitition . Knowing is something else . Having the perceverance to make right , with a sense of design and quality is what makes a good trim carpenter , or any other craftsman . Other wise you are a technician .
The learning comes from desire to do better , not everyone wants to learn , some want to be the best . I always wanted to be the best in a quality way , not in a speed way or a money way . So trim carpentry was a good fit for me . Although I really do have to work on that money thing .
DAVE
I just got here but that was a good post.
Tim
Interesting questions. . . I think i'm in a similar position, not having done much work for homebuilders, and definitely not having had a full "apprenticeship" for residential work.
What way do you learn best? I've been remodeling my house for the last two years, in between working (mostly ironwork, on suspension bridges), and I've really liked learning this way. Like you, I consult Breaktime, JLC, GaryMKatz.com, a couple different magazines, and whatever books I can find before I try most things. And I spend a lot of time visualizing the process before I tear into it. As a result, the first time I do something, it seems like I take a while to get started, but then it usually goes pretty well. If something bugs me, I'll rip it out and start over, but I don't expect every coped joint I do to be the same as stain grade work on Bill Gates's house.
I'm probably going to start working residential remodeling full time next year, and I know enough to see that I don't know how to do everything yet, but I think I'm well practiced at learning new skills. That's what's most important to me, and hopefully I'll find someone who thinks the same to hire me.
zak
I agree with piffin. you never really master this trade, thats what makes it so fun. As far as who taught me? Every trade that walks onto a job gives me a little know how. Ive had the drive to learn from any where it comes from. But older carpenter asked me to help him on a side job that lasted 6 months. He taught me the most. From what a king stud is to how to mortise a hinge. He was very clear on directions and actually let me learn by doing,all on his dime! So when I get someone new to the trade, I treat them the same way. They'll learn and respect you faster. If they cut a stud short, its no problem because if im on top of my game, I'll know where i can still use that lumber.(blocking, cripples,squash blocks, etc.)
We were just talking about this today. The guy that works for me (with me)was asking me about my work history. We also talked about the fact that remodelers seem to have broader range of knowledge for construction.
I first worked for a general contractor that did both commercial and residential work. We did everything from concrete to carpentry to iron work. I learned real quick what I liked and didn't like as well as what I was and wasn't good at. The next job I had was mostly residential remodeling and home improvement. I really enjoyed that type of work and I seemed to excel at it. Then I got a job with a company that built only new homes. I loved that, because I didn't come home covered in plaster dust and insulation dust.
When I finally decided to go on my own I found that the experience I had in both remodeling and new construction gave me the oppertunity to do a varity of work. We may build one or two homes a year mixed in with additions and some kitchen and bath remodels as well as subbing ourselves for trim work.
The draw backs to doing such a varity of work are the equipment needs are greater and it is hard to train help. We may be shingling one week and then not shinglew again for two months. By that time alot of what the guy learned is forgotten. It takes a little patience but once the guys know the quality that I expect they usually take to just about anything.
As far as the equipment, well I like tools and this just gives me a reason to buy them. We have pretty good stuff to work with and that helps us do good work. Good tools and equipment help with the guys that don't have the experince too. If you hve the right tool for the job that can compensate for a little lack of experience.
I avoided hiring help for a long time because I was worried I wouldn't be able to train them. It was hard at first, but now I try to have fun with it. It turns out that I'm a better teacher than I thought and somre of the stuff that a new guy will do keeps me chuckling all the way home at night.
The best advise has allready been given. I can only reinforce. Get under as many old, crusty carpenters as you can. They've seen/done most everything and can impart that knoledge/experience to you.
I will never forget my epiphany. I rode with a friend to an appointment he had and waited in the truck while he went inside. I watched a carpenter hang facia by himself. Durring that twenty minute wait, I was inspired to be a carpenter. I had allways had an interest. But wasn't committed. Now, 35 years later, I don't know who that carpenter was but I thank him for his image and now perhaps some young man will see me working and want to become a carpenter.
InTheCleftOfHisHand
ford
I'll play...
I was working as an irrigation service tech (sprinkler guy) a little over eight years ago and got layed off for the winter. I knew a guy who knew a guy that did some framing and was looking for some help. So I went and asked the guy if he'd take me on for the winter even though I didn't know how to do anything but bend nails. He said, "let me see your hands". I showed him. He said "be at Dunkin' Donuts at 5:30 tomorrow morning." Musta liked my callouses.
And so it began.
By the time spring came around I was hooked and didn't have any plans on going back to sprinklers. About 8 months after I picked up my first circular saw, my boss set me up with a crew and a development to work in. We split into the two crews and he was always working on another house right in the same development if I needed him. Talk about getting thrown to the lions. It was one of the greatest things anyone ever did for me. I was a fast learner and had a real hunger for building, but looking back.... man, was I green! What an opportunity though.
I'd get to the job at about 6am and try to get my sh2t together before the crew showed up and figure out not only what we'd do that day but how! LOL. When the guys left for the day I'd stay around another hour or so to stare at the plans and try to start figuring out what came next. Then I'd get in my truck and head over to my boss's house. His wife would cook dinner every night and I'd sit down with him and his family and eat dinner and talk about building houses. After dinner we'd stay at the kitchen table with the plans and he'd answer questions, draw pictures, and explain away. When I couldn't hold my head up anymore, I'd get back in the truck and drive home to pass out. Start it all over the next day. It was a fantastic time in my life.
I was single at the time and I had just gotten sober about a year previously. In general was just trying to finally get my life together after 25 years of being an idiot. That first couple years with my old boss were just awesome. For the first time in my life I felt like I was actually accomplishing something and enjoying myself. And I was working so dang hard that it wasn't hard to stay out of trouble. I had a small truck payment, a little rent, and a phone bill. I spent every single left over dime on tools. Within two years I had enough of my own tools to run a crew.
I stayed on with him for 5 years before things started to fall apart. (That's a whole other story). We're still great friends (he was in my wedding party) and we'll always have those awesome years together. It was a crash course in framing, but it was worth every 14 hour day I put in... and there were tons of them.
I'm still learning every single day. I mean that literally. I've had my own business for three years now so in addition to still learning my craft, now I'm learning how to run a business. I have to credit this forum for so much of my education in both business and carpentry. But all in all..... I'm pretty much self-taught in that I never really worked under a real 'master'. My old boss could make pretty much anything look the way it was supposed to. Just don't ask him to explain how he did it, cuz even he didn't know.
While my old boss taught me the nuts and bolts (16 OC, load paths, basic stairs, common rafters) he left me with a lot to learn. I learned most of what I know about roof cutting from asking questions here and at JLC as well as books like a Roof Cutter's Secrets. I still read JLC, FHB and of course, the forums religiously. And I still ask a lot of questions. I thinks I'm blessed in that I truly believe my occupations is EXACTLY what I'm supposed to be doing with my life. I love it. I eat, breath, and sleep home building. I'm rarely bored by it and can never seem to learn enough about it. I'm far from being the best but I can say, without a doubt, that I have a burning desire to become the best.
I think it is very important for me to always remain teachable. The wonder and sense of accomplishment that comes from learning something new and then applying it is one of things that first attracted me to carpentry and I firmly believe it's one of things that keeps me pounding away at dem nails. I love learning something new and am always in search of better, faster, and more efficient ways to build a frame of above average quality. And that sure makes it easy to keep up with the "continuing education".
But all in all..... there's really no subsititue for experience. I am blessed, I think, in that my old boss put me in a situation where I was exposed to an awful lot, awful fast. I'm glad he recognized that I could handle it and trusted me. I gotta believe that mistakes teach you an awful lot if you're paying attention. And I've sure made my fair share.
That's a lot of words.
BTW, strong work.--------------------------
It's only satisfying if you eat it.
"and I'd like to thank the Academy....." sniff sniff
LOL. Sorry dude. You're right. Guess it was a little long-winded.View Image
"and I'd like to thank the Academy....." sniff sniff
LOL.
Here comes the positive reenforcement.
"… the first great, mind-tickling treat of the new year."--------------------------
It's only satisfying if you eat it.
More to it than words, eh?
Lotta heart!
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Lotta heart!
It's funny you say that. I was just getting ready for tomorrow. Setting up the coffee maker, getting my drawings by the door, putting the phone on the charger. At the same time thinking through what I'm doing tomorrow. Some how I started thinking about what motivates people.
Heart was the one thing I think applies mostly to people like you, diesel, and everyone else that breaks their back(or shoulder) to make a living.
--------------------------
It's only satisfying if you eat it.
Man Brian, I didn't know you had such a short, yet colorful history!
Your story sounds very similar to mine, at least the part about knowing soon what you were destined to do and then diving headlong into it.
I agree with you, too about always remaining teachable; I myself enjoy (although not too frequently) working with others in similar trades just to get a different perspective or pick up a new (and potentially better) way of doing things.
I also have never burned a bridge with an employer, and for that, I still receive advice and referrals from previous bosses. I think that is important when you're a young, developing tradesman/businessman.
Between JLC and BT (and their respective forums) I have learned so much it's indescribable, as I too, was "thrown in with the lions" although that was more of my own doing. However, with that comes the creativity and drive to learn that cannot result from doing the same thing every day,over and over, for the same employer.
Again, thanks for the background.Jason Pharez Construction
Framing & Exterior Remodeling
Man Brian, I didn't know you had such a short, yet colorful history!
LOL.... "colorful".... I guess that's one way to put it. Come to the next Fest Jason. If you're still interested, I'll give you the long version. Cats and their measly 9 lives got nothing on me. ;)View Image
Yea come to the next fest but don't get up too early if your gonna have breakfast with him. He likes to sleep in. LOL
Ugha Chaka! Ugha Chaka! Ugha, Ugha, Ugha, Chaka!
Edited 1/28/2006 2:22 pm ET by Gunner
What's a guy gotta do to catch a break around here? Geez... those two days were my summer vacation last year! Oh well.... I made the bed... guess I gotta sleep in it. :)View Image
It's all good. LOL Your the one that missed boobs and pancakes.
Ugha Chaka! Ugha Chaka! Ugha, Ugha, Ugha, Chaka!
That's a post that needs to go in the breaktimers hall of fame. I can't tell you how many thoughts, dreams and memories are resurrected reading that. Thanks for sharing
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
memories are resurrected
Which means you had shelved them? Just curious as my youthful exhuberance has certainly dimmed. Don't get me wrong, I still enjoy the life. It's just that being it at it for over 30 years, something just isn't there anymore. I figure I can talk to you because you've been at it way longer.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
The part that's dimmed for me is the actual doing. Some because I physically can't do some of it anymore, others because I have to keep busy with office, ppare, phones, etc, to keep the guys busy. I get to do all the stuff i hate so they can do the stuff i love.A really good day though is that one that comes along maybe once in two or three weeks, when I can dazzle them with my brilliance and teach them something new or how to do it better or faster. Sometimes those tricks are all that keep an old man on top of the heap. The ones that make a three hour job go by in twenty minutes.The rest of the time I have to settle for baffling them with bu//sh!t;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Awww Paul.... yer making me blush through me whiskers. Seriously, thanks man. Means alot coming from the Grand Poobah of Breaktime. :)View Image
I've only used three or four of my nine lives. I wanna hear about your story more at Tipifest. I'll buy you one.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
love reading these posts, and I love home improvement, I think I may have missed my calling. What's Tipifest?
Kevin
Been around this thread a few years (some good times, some bad)but this post really got me feeling I know you guys a lot more then I did yesterday. And that's a good thing. I read a lot more then I submit but I'm going to make up for that.....
Mid eighties I worked for Silverstein Properties leasing office space in downtown Manhattan. Spent most of my free time hanging around with Ambassador Construction guys and around their temp offices. My boss at the time realized leasing wasn't my gig so he put me in charge of over seeing construction jobs(mostly punchlist stuff) Then building offices,etc.. Problem was the 40 year old construction guy didn't like answering to the 22 yr old "kid" in the suit. And he was right. The upside was I got to see Seven World Trade Center built from the ground up. Late eighties bottom fell out, SP downsized, lost my job, road trip to Calif (best time in my life). Got home took a job as a carp. helper. German craftsman, hard as hell to get along with but I stole millions with my eyes. Read everything I could get my hands on. If you can read then by God read. He said I would never make it in this business, "you're too nice to people ,you're too particular..." Went out on my own in 1991 hauling tools in a 1980 Camaro till I could afford a pick -up.
Been proving him wrong for 15 years now. Relocated once starting all over again and still have built up a good cliental.
You learn everyday, stay away from the ones you tell you you don't.
Nothing matches experience but reading never hurts only helps.
If you can visualize it you can make it happen.
Wasted enough space take 'er easy.
I could see any space wasted there. You even packed some stuff between the lines.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Just remember- when the tool you tote around all day is a hammer, all your problems start lookin' like nails. Jim
Thanks , I enjoyed that .
It was good of ya to share it .
Tim
My pleasure. I envy you older guys who got to see what sounds like a lot more of how things "should" be built. There's just so much "faster, faster, faster" in today's building. Who knows...maybe it was always like that.
But I read stories about old carpenters who would show up at the site early in the morning. They'd drink coffee out of a thermos while they sharpend their bits, blades, chisels, and irons. Then they'd go about their business of practicing their craft.
I think about the guys I watched build the little addition on our house when I was a kid. They let me pick up scrap and straighten nails and payed me $1/hour to do it. I was thrilled that they even let me hang out near them. It was summer vacation and I can't remember how old I was. But what I do remember is how I idolized those guys. If you told me they walked on water too, I would have believed it. They never seemed rushed. They would go about their business not talking too much except to throw (what I thought to be) an exceptionally witty one-liner over at another guy on the crew. They were as cool as the other side of the pillow. One of them spit tobacco. I don't know for sure, but it could very well be that somewhere in the back of my brain that memory of how "cool" that guy was still exists. Maybe that's why I go through a can of snuff a day. I'm serious too.... that's how much of an impression those guys made on me. They were like storybook giants to me with their big gnarly hands and their worn leather aprons with those huge hammers hanging off of them. I remember that I couldn't even hold one of those hammers straight let alone swat 16's effortlessly like those guys did.
Anyway...maybe I'm romancing things a bit too much. But those sure are fond memories. I'm sure they had their troubles too. But when I look at all the hoops I have to jump through, all the tools and equipment I have to drag around, the taxes, the insurance policies, the "bigger, better, faster" mentality..... I sure long for simpler times..... even if they're just story book images coming from the memories of a star struck little kid.
If it really was that way.... I'd sure like to hear more about it. And if it wasn't the way I remember it at all..... let me be. It lets me sleep at night and gives me something to dream about. We all need something... right?View Image
Wow! a whole buck an hour for a kid!
My first job at tjhe dairy farm paid that. Then that carp/builder's helper job in NM in 1970 or 71 got me the same! sixty or seventy bucks a week went a long way back then. I think my rent was fifty bucks a month
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
It's funny how things stick in your mind. I remember when I'd clean up after my grandfather's guys, I wasn't allowed to touch the chisels. Maybe that's why I collect them now. I'll cut and paste a post I made on JLC.
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View Image 08-08-2005, 08:59 PM
dustinmckay View Image
Veteran Contributor
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 287
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When I was about 6 or 7 years old, my grandfather owned a small construction company, and he was building a funeral home. I'd go to work with him during the summer, and watch 3 carpenters move with grace. None of his guys were under 50, they'd hand nail everything, and never seemed to be laboring. True throw backs, with carpenters over-alls. They'd stop at 9am sharp, drink hot black coffee, smoke filterless cigarettes, and read the paper. I was awe struck, I can't ever remember wanting to be anything else. To me, that was my goal, and I've spent everyday since trying to emulate those 3 guys.--------------------------
It's only satisfying if you eat it.
Damn , I forgot that in my story. Thanks .
PA in a can with the papers inside . They were stored in the chest bib of overalls. Lets roll a smoke there Bill and talk about it .
Bull durm and twist . Powdered snuff in a can. Wow what strong stuff ! Im still not man enuff to do that sht . And I dp dip.
Hub cast iron pipe . Breakers 5 ft long . Melting lead in a pot and pouring lead . Tamping oakum and lead wool. We were in heaven when they came out with hubless and those damn nice rubber clamps! Threading pipe by hand with a full set of dies in a wood case and shooting the cutting oil to them. Galvanized water pipe. Used lots of thread dope.
Cutting our own tooth picks at lunch time from a scrap of wood .
Tim
Cutting our own tooth picks at lunch time from a scrap of wood
Now, that's hardcore.
Great stories.
--------------------------
It's only satisfying if you eat it.
this is a good thread .anybody got some oldskool pics? Mabye some black and whites .
I've just got this one....
I don't remember where I got it... maybe here? I think that's Tim and Piffin up on the porch roof, but I'm not sure. ;)
View ImageView Image
Thanks for the pic. Looks like moms does a little roofin.
I pretty much think that the two old guys on the ground are Tim and Piffin, the ones on the roof look to be a little young :=)
Now I wish you hadnt gone and posted all that stuff, your getting me feeling all sentimental, warm and fuzzy......think I'll dream of old time carp's tonight.
I see alot of myself in you, or should I say similiarities. From having strong impressions from carpenters at a young age ( I remember as a kid following around the roofers redoing my mom's house, it was the biggest honor when they would let me fetch things for them) to being anal retentive about tool organization/storage ( pity the people who would have the two of us together) to not being able to walk out of a building supply house without somehow picking up another tool!!!!
In all seriousness, thank you. You've steered this thread in a great direction.
-m2akita
Live by the sword, die by the sword....choose your sword wisely.
Edited 1/29/2006 12:25 pm ET by m2akita
I've had many many jobs over the years and two carpentry jobs were at the top of the list of my best & favorite jobs.At the other end of the spectrum, the worst job I've ever had was a carpentry job, but with a different company.In the two best jobs the companies were owned by guys who did high quality work, worked right along side us flunkies, and the owners were dedicated to the profession, and striving to establish a reputation for quality.My worst job involved the owner of the company who worked in the office. Our crew consisted of two older guys in their 40's and 3-4 of us apprentices who were in our early 20's and wanting to learn.The two older guys were the onsite foremen and they didn't get along. They didn't like each other and they disliked the owner of the company even more. They felt they were underpaid (and they were) - (we all were) and they didn't give a #### about the quality of work or the reputation of the company. The two older guys were heavy drinkers.I stayed for a year and finally left. If this had been my only experience in the field of carpentry I would have quit and never gone back. Every day was misery..++++++++++++++++
-Do the thing you fear and the death of fear is certain-
You all kicked off some memories I have from being a kid around construction work.Our neighbor had been a builder in the city and he retired at about 54 YO to buy the few hundred acres next to our house. It had three small lakes and he developed the place to be a campgrounds ( KenLee Haven in WNY rt 78 and 98) He built the shower rooms while I watched him lay block and do plumbing
He roofed that building and others while I got fascinated that it was possible for a man to finger nails and drive them so fast.
He always had tape on a few of his fingers, making me wonder why somebody would do work that caused such damage to ones body
He had a gravel pit that was a great place to ride motorcycles and to use the sled in winter.
He would let my brothers and I ride in the back of his dump truck and hang on to the head while he dumped his load - keeping an eye out for our safety while pretending he didn't know we were there.
he plowed out drive for us with his big old Cat Dozeer. I don't know which model, but it was big, and it spent most of one summer buried in the lake where he was tryiong to build a sand beach for his campers but found a deep soft hole instead. He had to drain the lake and dry it out to retreive it.
He showed me how much one single man could accomplish if he took the time to think things out.I went back home and stopped by to vist 15 years ago and he was still piddling with his machinery even tho he was so bent up with arthritis in his hands and back that I couldn't belive he could get up out of his chair.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I usually just lurk here on BT, and pick up ideas, but reading this post started me thinking. Let me start off by saying that I am not in the trades, but wish everyday I was. I am relegated to being a very accomplished DIY'er, doing everything on my own home, as well as remodel projects for friends.
The post started me thinking about when I was young, and spending time with my grandfather. He worked a career for the highway department, farmed on the side, and, after retirement, opened a capentry/cabinet business. I spent my formative years following him around, and to this day, can't believe how much he could accomplish in so little time, and with such basic tools. He taught me so much, from how to cut a board square, to making a miter joint that wouldn't open, to chew tobacco without getting sick (ok, this probably was not that good, since I still have the bad habit, lol), to how a man stands behind his word, and fulfills his committments, no matter the cost.
Looking over the posts here brought back all the memories, and earlier today, while working on a project in my shop, I turned around, and I swear he was standing there looking over my shoulder, in his bib overalls, large chew in his jaw, and that little smile that he would always throw my way when he had me do something that was really above my abilities, but that I was somehow able to do anyway. He has been dead since the late 70's, but I still never do anything with wood that I don't look at it, and ask "Would this have met Grandpa's expectation?"
Sorry to ramble, but just thought this was on point for this thread, and to everyone else that has the same type memories, I raise my glass, and drink to all the mentors that have shaped our lives.
Thanks for putting up with my sentimental ramblings, and thanks for all the great tips I have picked up here. Hopefully, some day, I can help someone here, and try to pay back at least a little. Have a great rest of the weekend.
Seems we've had similiar exposure early on. Maybe our profession is actually the result of childhood trauma from hanging around old carps. Now that sure would explain a lot huh? ;)View Image
That's a great picture.
--------------------------
It's only satisfying if you eat it.
"If it really was that way.... I'd sure like to hear more about it."
OK
When I traveled with Dad he did the same thing kinda you do. He got there at daylight and started a fire in the winter . Then he went for his thermos of boiling hot coffee. He took that cup and walked the job and normally ignored any questions at that time . Now I know what he was doing then I didnt care. When the guys showed up at 7 he had the lumber uncovered and the cords restrung. We had an hour lunch for some reason I didnt know then but now I do. He was resting his troops before he had to start paying them. That was the time to sharpen the saws off the clock. We didnt have carbide at all. We could sharpen about three times before we had to put the set back in a blade. I remember the time I bought my first table saw . It was a 12 inch craftsmen and came with a huge toothed 12 inch rip blade that would "whur" sound when the saw came on. That blade had a lot of set and more than I had ever seen but it was easy to sharpen. Saw guides were a noted joke back then as the Skill saws only had about a 2 inch guide and was considered useless. My Uncle was a master at holding is hand on a folding tape that he gauged to the saw for rips . Much like I cut drywall now with out a guide. Sometimes he would just use his thumb. When it rained we stayed and worked on the tool box tools hoping it would quit. Thats where dad got serious about sharpening his hand saws. He never quit using them as long as he worked just like the framing square. Chisels were sharpend with whit rocks and so the hand planes which brought out honing oil.
One big rule on dads jobs was to empty your nail aprons before you went home . He was afrad the nails might not come back.
When we started a job we were there to the end of it . There wasnt framers separated to finsih carps. We dug the footings by hand sometimes and used the same hands to do the interior painting . If you didnt know how to do somthing there seemed time to learn it. One day the shovels went home and the trowels came back and so on. He finally bought a backhoe because he couldnt stand to let someone away with that money. We always finished our own concrete and started with hand trowels after a bull float . We used a jitter bug back them. That was the new guys job as was stuffing fiberglass insulation in the attic and walls. We didnt have carpet laid back then . It was either hardwood floors or what is known as vct tile but it was asbestos tile. Then linoleom came and we laid it along with carpet . He hired a guy from Kansas City to teach us and sell us the tools. But he ended up staying on and he did it when the time came . We didnt have a miter saw of course so trim was sawed in a saw box. Drywall mud and texture all came in bags and was mixed by hand. Buckets were a problem back then so all five gallon buckets were gaurded from paint cans . It wasnt uncommon to have to use a metal 5 and they were also saved . Every one of them. Houses were painted with oil paint and 6 inch brushes . We added Turpntime and linseed oil. The reason we were short on 5 gallon buckets is that it doesnt take 5 gallons to paint a house with oil by the time you add the other stuff . Oil goes a long long way! I once painted the trim of a house with a quart.
We laid block, rock, and brick. Uncle was the best on the brick and dad was the rock mason. Everyone laid blocks.
When it was framed and dried in the same guys crawled right back up carrying shingles and roofed it. We bent metal with two 2x4s. Dad watched that everyone dropped the nails from their aprons again as those nails are higher priced. Painting the out side was the same deal. All the crew did it .
Uncle was the sparky and dad was the plumber and belive it or not they were both lisensed to do their own work. It was a restrictiive license. Dad sent a nep to votech for the HVAC when they started putting those things in . Before that we set wall furnaces , floor furnaces and built fire places and flues. No air except window water coolers for a while then winsow air . I remember the day a salesman told us how a heat pump worked. We had never heard of such.
Theres was always time for enjoyment too. All the breaks and lunches on the job came with stories and visiting . I miss that the most. Playin liars poker with dollar bills . Dad would come back from the lumber yard and with a grin he would say , yall wanna cut a water melon? He would have bought several at a time and we would stack them under shade tree for breaks.
We bought ice in blocks from the ice house that werent wrapped or nothin. We either provided a cooler or wraped them in a quilt. I remember questioning dad that the quilt would melt the ice.
Checks were made out Friday at quittin time with him sittin in his truck. You were paid for work you did up to 15 minutes ago. Always scribbled in his hand writing that was border line readable except the amount . The numbers were clear.
Tim
Thanks Tim. That was real good reading. I hope you don't mind that I printed it out. Man, I eat that stuff up. Sounds like it was a great way to grow up.View Image
I'm the same way. I love old carpenter stories and pictures.
You ever read Norms book. Measure twice, cut once? I know we've talked about it before but I can't remember if you ever got it or read it.
Ugha Chaka! Ugha Chaka! Ugha, Ugha, Ugha, Chaka!
Never read it. Is it instructional or more of his 'story'? I love that guy. I should probably look into getting a copy, huh?View Image
It's his story. But he does it in under the assumption that he's talking about tools, their history and uses. Kind of. He talks alot about the old days of carpentry and working for his dad as an appreantice. It might be out of print. If it is I'll loan you my copy. I like to re read it every year or so. Great book.
And yes I love the guy too. He's given way more then he's gotten and he's very nice about it.
Ugha Chaka! Ugha Chaka! Ugha, Ugha, Ugha, Chaka!
Just checked Amazon. Five copies left. Pick up a belt sander while your there.
Ugha Chaka! Ugha Chaka! Ugha, Ugha, Ugha, Chaka!
I just ordered a copy in "like new" condition for $4.75. A little over 8 bucks with shipping. Skipped the belt sander though. I can only race one at a time anyway.View Image
Pretty fun to wander around in our collective memories. Mine begin about 1966 landing a summer job at a 3rd generation family owned lbr yard. Hell they were all family owned yards back then. I remember being absolutely fascinated with all the strange materials. Been a long time since I've seen 5/16" D pine drawer stock in a bin. A shed full of #1 blue ribbon sawn cedar shingles. Be worth about a million bucks today!! Bins full of rough sawn red & white oak, a little cherry, a little walnut, & plenty of maple. The old Parks planer we'd surface the builders orders with. The good guys all did site built cabinets. We all carried a little book that converted every size board in to board footage. I still prefer to estimate & price material by bf. We closed at noon on Sat. but would work the afternoon cutting & bundling 1"x3" bridging for 2x8, 2x10 & 2x12 joists. All 16" O.C. Idon't think any one spaced anything at 24" O.C. in those days!! The builders every one considered good all seemed to be old guys in bibs who moved slow but never wasted a move.Even the Christianson Bro's who planed the crowns out of their D fir floor joists with an old jointer plane!!! They built the finest homes around. I bet ol Piffin remembers T-locks & French diamond shingles. Still on a few barns today. 3 in 1's were brand new in that day. This yard even kept a stock of 1 3/4"x 3 5/8" 2x4's for addition work on houses built with that standard. Bundles of rock lath used to replace wood lath in full plaster walls. Imperial Board or "blue board"used as backer for thin coat plaster walls. sheet rock "dry wall" was only for low cost HUD financed homes. To this day I love to tail at the end of the mill and look at every board as it appears from the log, or tail at the end of a planer and ooh & aah over the grain as it is exposed on the out feed. " One Love"
What a great thread!
I too did the shop class thing in high school and got my first taste of sawdust. The absolutely awesome part I remember was the design aspect of projects which to this day remains a favorite for me. The fact the shop had every tool at my disposal was equally awesome. Back then (72 to 76) shop was one of those school clique type groups but I crossed the lines being an honor roll student as well as a jock. I only mention this because it wasn't until years later I recognized how critical those hours in shop class became to my future love affair with building.
College lasted three years until I dropped out and had to start working for a living. Student loan got all screwed up and I lost funding for a semester, damn near starved. A friend knew a contractor needing an electrician and I mentioned I knew a little about electricity (from a slot car and train set) and went on the job to fix a three way switch. Man was that a joke... It was a burn job and his whole crew was demo-ing the place then rebuilding as I transitioned to laborer on his crew. He liked me, what more can I say? I kept my eyes open and my mouth shut except to ask questions and hung in there for a couple years learning something every day. I did light (very light) handyman work on the side and any time someone asked me if I could do something, I said, "sure" then proceeded to research (pre internet) how to do it and put it all back together like it came out. I learned more taking notice of details when taking things apart than any one person ever taught me.
It's only been in the past ten years I've become comfortable wearing the name of carpenter. Lots and lots of mistakes along the way but every one of them went into my mental library and helped me later on. I consider myself a seasoned remodeler/renovator now thanks to having worked on places dating back to the 1700's and having the ability to adapt modern technique and materials to those situations. I've also picked up plumbing, electrical, tile, trim, paint, etc., everything except HVAC along the way, from the same approach of saying I could do it then learning how to do it.
The ideal would have been to have someone there who could show me the ropes along the way but it didn't work out that way. I had no genetic propensity to the trade as my dad (a preacher when I was growing up) couldn't drive a nail with a road map on the back of a hammer. But I still love making something of nothing with my hands and figure I'll always indulge my taste for sawdust.
I'm venturing into deck sales now and though I hate salesmen, I can take those things I learned to hate about them and become a better salesman simply due to the fact I won't sell something that I know can't be built. I'll also be doing the designs now so that will hopefully be something I can do well. If not, I can always get back into the actual building side of things.
Again, great thread and great stories which give so much insight into the characters here...
I could sit here all night reading but the wifes getting lonely. Thanks for the history I really enjoyed it.
Good questions, but man took me forever to read all that.
I got my start under "pops"(stepfather with a daddys heart). I was wanting some money for some sneakers between fifth and sixth grade. He let me come to work for $20.00 every two weeks that summer. (they were expensive shoes, and we was pooooooooor).
The rules were simple
#1 DONT GET HURT
#2 Sweep the floors
After two summers of that I started framing with them, and got a raise. It was a good company and everyone had a "specialty"
When I quit school, long story, I went full time with that company for 8 years.
One day I got a phone call from a local contractor who offered me more money and a truck to run a subdivison for him. I took that offer. He put me in the union and I did 2 years of the 4 year apprenticeship requiired by the union.
I am now a small business owner in southern illinois and on good terms with both my former bosses. Good to the point that I sub a lot of work from them.
The question of new hires. I like to hire kids who don't know much at all about carpentry. Me and the crew can train them our way ( well, my way) I normally stick them with one of my lead men and tell them to teach. Since I am still union they also get the union schooling which I believe for a newbie is a good thing. You have to be patient with the new ones and encourage them, negetive gets the same. Is my opinion.
Little spacke, little paint, right. An inch to short. That's the story of my life !
bstcrpntr --- I hope to grow into this name.
Wow, man that was nice. Real nice. Thanks
You have a way with words, a natural talent - don't know why, but it reminds me of Least Heat Moon, or Dharma Bum Kerouac. You gotta write a book. Seriously.
Whoa.... Kerouac? Dems the big boys. Loved the Beat writers for a spell. Kerouac and William S Burroughs were two of my favorites. Still are. Might be time to revisit them, but those are some pretty big shoes to fill.
EDIT: But thanks for the compliment. Never was much good at taking one. First time I read "On the Road" I came pretty close to quitting college. Try explaining that one to Dad. lol.
View Image
Edited 1/29/2006 10:02 am ET by dieselpig
I knew early on in my life that construction was in my blood. Lots of relatives in the field was a great source for summer jobs. Loved everything about it, and as someone else said, wanted to learn the how & why of everything I did. Went to college because I thought that I needed a bachelors degree to succeed in the world. Got my degree, but never could forget about the projects I'd worked on in the summers & break.
Worked briefly for an architect after college, but still had the urge to get out in the field. Went to work for a relative doing residential work ( new houses & remodeling) & decided this was who I was. He had an older guy working for him who had many years of experience, who at first treated me worse than a dog, which I believe was a way of testing me to see if I had the stones to stick it out. This guy could figure every stick to a frame, list it, and when cut right, every stick would fall into place. I was amazed at his efficiency. But I was the bottom dog, even with decent experience as a laborer as a kid.
I did all the nasty work, carried everything, ran for everything, even had to setup & breakdown tools everyday while the other two discussed the project. Man I hated the way that guy treated me, but one day, he just opened up to me and said, "you know, you could be really good at this. It's tough be a millionaire in this trade, but you can make a good living, and I think you have what it takes to be good at it." I decided then and there I was a carpenter for life. Seven years later I went on my own, and I'm into year 12 now. Looking back, as much as I disliked the guy, I learned alot from him, and he taught me how to do things right. A woman I was once dating asked me why I did what I did for a living and my reply was "I love everything about construction, from the smell of the lumber, to working outside, to seeing something come to life that you built, the smell of concrete, even the late nights driving home when the suns going down and you're dead tired. I think it's just in you." It only gets complicated when the money gets involved, and hopefully my body holds up until I can retire. But there's really nothing else I'd want to do.
As for your second question,I tell most young guys to go sign up with a framing outfit for at least a couple years.
I got started cleaning up and doing demo for some older friends doing remodels. they finally let me drive a couple sixteens one day,and a week later I was driving up and down the canyons in malibu stopping at all the framing jobs looking for work,writing my name and phone number on peices of scrap.Finally hooked up with a small framing company.I lucked out.worked with my then new boss framing custom homes up and down the pacific coast highway for about 5 years.Although i would usually do a job and then jump a plane and travel and surf.Still to this day i feel like i really lucked out by working for the best framer i have worked with or for in twenty years.For the next five years i bounced around with other framing companies doing a few jobs then go for a surf.Even did some time on the track homes just to learn some of the tricks of the trade from those characters.
The last 9 or 10 years has been some framing jobs ,mostly under 3000 square feet .but mainly contracting and have flipped a couple homes up here in santa barbara.
might as well add to the mix.....
I worked for a number of people just after high school. I worked for a pool co. which taught me about measuring diagonals and levels. I worked as a tender for two seasoned masons doing new work and some renovations. Later for a framer who taught me a number of things until he took a skil saw to his leg while cutting a board. I worked for a supermarket for 12 years and taught me that I couldn't wait to get out. I had a house built for my family in '93, unfinished upstairs. I learned lots fast about framing, sheetrock, finish, etc. I've since built two more houses. The last was two years ago and I did everything from finished sheetrock (minus electrical). I now am a fulltime firefighter/paramedic and own my own handyman business on the side. I'm alone and do small jobs, sheds, decks, etc., no big additions. I'm almost completely self taught. I read and study 'this old house', JLC, FHB, 'family handyman' (can usually get a tip or two), various books on the shelves from Home Depot. I try to follow the example of the people you would want to work on your house (Norm, Tom or others I see posted in breaktime). There are a number of builders in this area (NH) that rush in and rush out. I've been to fairly new houses to repair damage to decks, cabinitry not installed properly among other things. I wish I had the opportunity to work under someone who could have shown me the ropes. But at the same time and just as important, I took away from each job something I can apply almost every day. I never cut a board perched on my leg. I read magazines enough so I feel confident I can do the job right without necessarily having done it before. I'll take on a job then research the heck out of it and see it done before I begin. I'm sure all these people here are similar that way and not all of them are formally trained. I feel if you do the job properly with current techniques and materials you've found here, you can train someone yourself. Full speed ahead!
My start as a full time carpenter was like being shot out of a canon. A simple ad for carpenters had me working on a retired contractor's personal home and everything was tops. He said you have be able to teach yourself and never be intimidated by a project.
The next handful of years were also spent working on $m mountain homes. My girlfriend was such a beotch that working 60 hours a week was a nice break from her.
The next few years were spent working primarily on remodels. I discovered Taunton's construction books and started a collection, buying the book that applied to the job at hand.
Then single, self employed, making good money working 50 hours a week on no-hold-barred top quality construction, chasing tail 60 hours a week, and a bar tab that would make a house payment. Quality high--quantity low. At first I wasn't good at it, but it began to come more naturally. Started dating a bartender, we quit living at the bar and moved to Boise.
Working here as a lead carp. in Boise has been an education, with some more "refined" homes and the requisite architects, soil engineers, structural engineers, lighting designers, landscape architects, audiophile designers, kitchen designers, historical design committees, licensing board (contractor designers) and interior decorators.
Now I'm back to being self employed and love not having to cut corners for anyone.
I couldn't find a teaching job after college (1978) and I needed money so I started working for a very good carpenter. I wasn't even good a bending nails. I worked off and on for him for about 8 years. We had the farm crisis, when it was everyone was on your own, and I did a stint in retail. When his alcoholism go too bad I went on my own with 3 days work lined up. I have been at it ever since. I always thought if I could learn the 999 rules to being a carpenter then I would have it firgured out. I have since learned that it is a way of thinking and problem solving. There are techinques and methods but it's that problem solver in you that makes you good.
I went a long time before I felt comfortable calling myself a carpenter. I knew what the standard was and I felt like a wood butcher. I would have to say I learned most of my skills because the HO would ask me do something and I would say "yes I can do that" (because I needed the money) and then when they left for the day I would say "how am I going to do that."
The hardest part of this business is not the carpentry, which used to be really hard for me. It's the estimating, the time management, and setting realistic time frames for yourself and your customers.
We have always been a one income family (we think it's important for to be there to raise your kids and we have one son in a wheelchair (CP). So I have never had the luxury of my wife's income and insurance. Some of these guys that I see out there are like the farmer who won the lottery. He'll keep farming until it's all gone. They love the work, the freedom and buying tools.
Like an earlier post said I love this work, and I love it the most when it's volunteer work and money is not involved. If money wasn't involved it'd be the best job in the world.
There were some old crusty guys along the way that imparted valuable knowledge to me and then there were others that kept the knowledge to themselves.
The keys to this trade are keep learning, take care of your body, learn to estimate properly, review your estimate with your actual cost, share your knowledge and sometimes your tools (I live in a small town) with younger guys, make time for your family and your wife, charge enough to stay in business and always put money away for the future.
I'm training my two boys to work with me now and it's a slow process. You have to give them some free rein and yet look over their shoulder at the same time. If it's not done right then tear it out and start over, suck it up and don't get mad, it's only money. There's more where that came from. Some clients think I'm just amazing but I know better and I know that I have made every mistake in the book, sometimes twice. This is kind of rambling and I really should be doing estimates. That's why I try just to read on BT and not post too much.
i think it's wonderful that men(or women)and some very self motivated hard working teenagers are not only capable of and wanting to learn carpentry but do. Your explanation of being pretty much self taught, and contrary to some opinions better than a person just learning for a one project deal or following a internet guide. Thing is most good very good carpenters before the mid twentieth century would learn on their own and become masters of the craft (carpentry) themselves, no apprentices no "training." Life perseverance common sense and a good head to learn a heart that loves what you are learning, especially the wood chips everywhere and the better than incense smell,and being blessed with hands capable of adapting to different types of wood, different projects,and the expected outcome whether it is to your standards or the desire by a company to quickly get it done using inferior materials and then passing it off as high quality. Studs Terkels book work details a carpenter who remembers when it was more about quality and self taught methods that they learned as self taught high school age boys and continued to use this skill as career mental health therapy and physical exercise. Kids who learn in their teens to work without a program or dulling control will be the ones who do the best. Not because they are anti authority more the zest is already there , they want to hone it to impress no one except maybe when they have succeeded and built something, they humbly show it to friends or and family. I have great respect for this type of person. A boy in Chicago who was a victim of ultra mad John Wayne Gacy was a carpenter at 16. I think many boys want to be just like him and this would help build character without coercion something they can be glad and happy about. He built his own jukebox believe it or not.
I’ve had the honor and pleasure of getting to know many of the above posters in person as well through this forum. Still stay in touch with a few.
The friendship built around the country and world for that matter was priceless. The education received is the added bonus.
Thanks for resurrecting this post!