Appears that I’m about to receive upwards of 5k sq ft, some with cosmetic hail damage. These things are 2 3/4″ thick, fiberglass (looks like Kalwall to me) on both surfaces, some kind of white fiber mat between them. Apparently the mat is to reduce convection currents. Aluminum frames.
Brand, mfg. unknown. Panels range up to 60×108″. Aluminum strips with butyl seals cover the seams between panels. Previous life was indoor pool roof.
Anybody have experience with these? Life expectancy? I’m not planning to use them over a heated space.
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Replies
VaTom,
I don't know.
But I wish you lived just down the street.
I do, c'mon over. First load, yesterday, filled my 7x12' pickup bed 8' high. I now have pictures of the building, but unfortunately I have yet to figure out how to get the pictures from the camera to the computer.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
I use a sony mavica with a floppy disc so I just put the floppy in the puter.
You probably use the cable to attach the camera to the puter to download.
Sounds like knowing which buttons to click after that.
When in doubt you can always read the manual for the rest of the day:o)
You probably use the cable to attach the camera to the puter to download.
Yup. Actually I'vd already spent more than a few hours with the instructions. Problem seems to be something about a USB device driver that was supposed to load from a CD. Or maybe I just can't find it. Apparently anything beyond Win98SE already had it built in. Unfortunately my best help here is off to the shore for a week. Camera was sure easy to use.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
This I understand.
Time for some input from 'puter folk.
'Course you know I gotta ask what yer going to do with the panels.
keep being
Edited 11/21/2004 12:56 pm ET by rez
'Course you know I gotta ask what yer going to do with the panels.
Looks like a few are going to find their way to my solar kiln, instead of sliding door panels. More than a few are going where I was intending to do copper standing seam, same building. They came with incredible ridge caps, extruded aluminum. Naturally, my pitch is wrong. And the building isn't the right size so I either re-manufacture some panels or put copper pans on one side, likely the latter. That's where the slate'll go until it runs out.
Recently razed a 5k ft pole barn, partly to get the materials. Galvanized roofing panels are now going to my machinist for a saw shed. He'll be tickled and instead, I'll use some of these panels for a decent equipment shed for my fleet.
Next house gets an indoor pool (almost finished, the pool that is) but it's under a deck off the main house floor. These panels aren't designed for traffic.
Seems like my building plans always revolve around what happens into my life. Like the lumber drying/storage building. Started out when I bought a couple of large machines that needed a home. 24" planer (4500 lbs) and a behemoth 42" 3-drum sander. They're on the bottom (drive in), then lumber storage, then lumber storage and kiln (drive in), then junk floor, then junk floor. Might have gotten a little carried away. Like with the Olds cupola, ascending this week, if my cable-raising plan works. Pretty interesting now that it has no floor or trunk pan. PITA to cut them out, won't do that again.
Then again, by tomorrow I might have figured to build something really worthy of the panels and go back to copper for the roof that's already got the purlins on it. There're 4 large copper rolls sitting here. Gotta do something with them.
Wanna come over and play?PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
You go to the camera manufacturers site and search for driverrs. If you do it out of the software that came with the camera, you probably go File > Update ( or possibly Tools > Update)and it will be pretty much automatic after that.If you have to do it manualy, you find the right driver on their site and dowload and install it. Could take an hour to find, download, and install. PITAUnfortunately, 98SEdid have it's own peculiarities with USB devices too. Mine old machine got to where it could not let me install and use my printers until I updated it to win2000.Not sure what kind of camera you have, but HP seems top be the worst about USB and win98 linking
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Thanks, piffin, didn't occur to me to try the manufacturer's site. It's a Minolta with the features I wanted. If I'm reading the instructions correctly, the driver's on the CD, which looked like it loaded smoothly. Tried uninstall and reinstall, still no go.
Have 2 USB ports and thought maybe something was wrong, switched the scanner to the other one, still works fine.
DW's been telling me to get another computer, but other than this problem, I've had no real complaints. Of course I barely know anything about 'em.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Noit sure of life expectancy, but it is sure that they will graduly get more brittle as al plastics do from UV. Chlorine gas may also have advanced their aging.
So, this is now an outdoor pool, eh?
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
So, this is now an outdoor pool, eh?
Nope. Hail damage (minor) caused the insurance co. to replace the whole thing. These panels are the only surface over the 9' OC steel beams. Stress skin. Pretty incredible stuff. Something like $500/panel for new ones. Believe I got somewhere around 70 of them. Not free, but well under a quarter/ft. Figured it was a reasonable alternative for some copper here.
Fortunately the pool was properly vented and covered when not in use. The interior surfaces are considerably better shape than the UV exposed ones, not that they're at all bad. Certainly not brittle. Large concrete pool attached to a large residence on an 800 acre organic cattle farm.
He said his insurance rates went up. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Man, think of the shed you could build with those!
be a tinker thinker
Edited 11/21/2004 12:42 pm ET by rez
tom.. sound like the real Kalwall..
there is "big " Kalwall.. they specialize in commercial structures.. which sounds like what you have..
and there is "little " Kalwall.. which distributes the solar and passive double glazed panels most are familiar with
Scott Keller ( of the K-alwall family ) started Solar Components in Manchester, NH and markets the "little " Kalwall...
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike, thanks. IIRC, you were doing solar at one time? The reason I was asking about life expectancy has to do with my desire to not replace it anytime soon. That's why copper's so appealing. Any idea how long Kalwall lasts? Eventually I'm not gonna want to be up on a roof.
The pile of solar panels (previous acquisition) awaiting the next house have yellowed some over the last maybe 25 yrs, probably decreasing their efficacy, but the sheet is still very much intact and still flexible.
I was also talked into salvaging a large pile of Kalwall tubes awhile back. These added water mass to low mass apts. Minimal sun, and all under glass, but those tubes still hold water and haven't shown much degradation. Believe I have 30-40 of them (12"x96") if anybody's interested. They wouldn't make much difference in our house and I haven't figured out anything else they're good for.
Ahah! Another Freecycle offer. Would you believe I dumped a trash compactor that way today? Somebody actually wanted one. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
tom... the panels will last just about indefinitely.. therr will be some degradation of solar emissivity.. and visual light transmission.. but they will still maintain water tightness.. the fibers ( they are a fiberglass panel ) will usually "bloom" and this will cause more dirt to stick instead of wash off with the rain..
Kalwall sells a coating to recoat them.. .. try google " Solar Components Corp. "
since they are a "wall panel " they are bonded to an aluminum frame and strut system with an epoxy.. sometimes this boind fails and the panels delaminate.. if there is no sign of that then they are good to go.. get some of the new coating if you want .. or use them "as is "
we used them from about '76 to '82 and i got tired of watching them "bloom".. switched form double wall Kalwall to single layer Low-iron glass.. gave up some heat loss for better solar transmission and indefinite life..
the thing about Kalwall is we could design systems using a 4' x 20' module.. with glass we were limited to 4 x 10..
our house uses the 4x10 glass...
View Image
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 11/21/2004 10:20 pm ET by Mike Smith
Kalwall sells a coating to recoat them.. .. try google " Solar Components Corp. "
Will do, thanks Mike. Guy I got the panels from mentioned something of the sort, but didn't know where to get it. You put my mind at ease about longevity.
Epoxy, eh? Leaves something to be desired this time. These were stacked and had the butyl, or whatever sealed the seams, stick the fiberglass sheets together. We pried them apart and often the epoxy let loose. I was thinking about trying Sphere's favorite, PL Premium. Won't be using them in the same structural way, so won't need the strength.
Piffin and Rez: thanks for your observations. A little time at the web site and with my manual and problem's solved. Here's the pool house on a very dark day: PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
nice pics:
i'd bet dollars to donuts that's "big" Kalwall..
they have a great architectural / technical assistance to protect their rep.
i'm sure if you contact them they can give you a maintenance regimenMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I had to give up using that phrase, "Dollars to doughnuts" after someone pointed out that a good doughnut costs more than a dollar nowdays. used to be, you could get a dozen for a buck.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Yep, it's "big" Kalwall. VP Bruce Keller was very solicitous last week until he confirmed it was a Kalwall product. Today I got a curt CYA email saying "Kalwall skyroof systems are "custom" engineered for a specific application and local code...we do not recommend reuse".
Nice support. Wonderful company. Azzholes.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Tom, can those panels be drilled?
Very easily. They're maybe 1/16" reinforced fiberglass skins separated with plastic ribs in a grid. The voids are filled with what looks like plastic steel wool. Total thickness is 2 3/4". Mostly pop riveted together.
Not sure I'm not getting your drift. Putting a hole in the top probably isn't the best way to keep them water-tight. Skins are so flexible that a neoprene washered screw would leak. The original installation relied on a screw going through the I beam up between the panels and into a ribbed channel in a tee molding that covered the edges of adjoining panels (photo). With absolutely no help from Kalwall, I've had to carefully examine the hardware I got and make guesses. My apologies if I've totally misread your intent.
Got another email from the VP today saying he was sorry I was upset. But still will not offer any technical advice. Oh yeah, I'll recommend Kalwall. Told him he certainly was sorry and that I was posting my experience in several places. According to the Peter Principle, he's clearly reached his level (of incompetency).
Sure you don't want to come over and play? Got an apprentice request from a guy in NC today. He's interested in my choice of housing. Looks like we'll get together this month. A little late for pouring concrete, but he's a rammed earth guy anyway.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
I'm really interested in seeing what you're going to do with 'em.
You know you can't let stuff sit too long.
You know you can't let stuff sit too long.
Guilty as charged.
But currently I have an open roof over my lumber drying/storage building. And those timbers don't need any more rain/snow exposure. I bought these panels in no small part because they were substantially cheaper than the copper rolls for standing seam. Not to mention making it much brighter inside. In absence of any help from Kalwall, I've figured out how to use copper for attachment to my rafters. Overhangs and uplift being my largest concerns. It's windy up here.
Part of what slowed me down on my roof was getting the cupola ready. And figuring how to get it up there. This morning's finally calm. Wish me luck.
Pretty much everybody who's seen them has expressed an interest in any surplus. Unfortunately I still have no idea if they're appropriate for a greenhouse.
Oops. 153kb? Must be doing something a little wrong with Irfanview. My apologies. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
You know you can't let stuff sit too long.
Here's an update. Finally finished the copper surrounding the panels. This morning the last panel gets dropped into place. These are only the first dozen, but the lumber shed needed a roof the most.
Then comes the machinery shed. Posts and beams are sitting here so it won't be long. These panels are incredibly simple to use and light enough for one person to wrestle. I'm not using Kalwall's glazing or attachment. When I saw how much silicone caulk they used to try to plug the leaks, I switched from butyl to EPDM. We got 1" last Thur. No leaks. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Well cool. You're moving on to completion like most of the the experienced joes that frequent here that can see a project thru to the end.
Nothing worse than a unfinished project that'll sit and sit and sit. I saw one once on my place but I forget what it was.
So what do you plan on doing with the leftovers? hehheh
sobriety is the root cause of dementia.
So what do you plan on doing with the leftovers? hehheh
You'll see the machine shed. After that we can talk. I actually offered to share the wealth with an acquaintance here. He opted for asphalt shingles for his shed. No accounting for taste.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Tom... that's the bottom tee.. you screw that into your purlins or your rafters ( however your roof is framed )
View Image
then you set your panels with some type of rest at the bottom to defeat gravity.
then you apply a butyl tape ... comes in rolls with a kraft release paper..
then you apply a top batten that looks like a truncated tee .. the cadmium hex head screw with a washer and butyl seal goes down thru the top batten ... and into the receiver of the bottom tee
just before you set the top batten in place you pull the release paper on the butyl tape... the pressure of the cadmium hex screw clamps the sandwich and seals the unit
go to www. SOLAR-COMPONENTS.COM for their catalogue.. all of the parts you need are illustarted and sold thru them..
the guy you are talking to is the brother of Scott Keller
lemme know if you hit any more snags
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 12/2/2004 8:50 am ET by Mike Smith
lemme know if you hit any more snags
Amazing. In a few sentences you got me squared away. Thank you very much. I keep getting emails from Bruce Keller, saying just about nothing. Certainly nothing useful. Here's the latest with the sole piece of information (after 4 exchanges) I might actually be able to use (all other questions totally ignored):
>There is no field repair "adhesive"..any field repair is minor, if required,
>and with pop rivets...otherwise the panels are not reuseable.
>
>Your choice of words is offensive to our office staff and has been reported
>to the authorities by our IT dept, by the way. Have a nicer life than you
>seem to have had recently. Regards, Bruce Keller, VP
I replied and requested that he not contact me again, rather, somebody else in the organization that would actually provide some information about the product, for instance if it was appropriate for a greenhouse. Seems I rubbed him the wrong way.... on my fourth attempt to get some meaningful information. First time around he was extremely nice, asking for my mailing address and phone number. Then he abruptly changed his mind and told me to get lost.
Do you actually know these people? Tell me they aren't family... Can I recommend that they hire you so as to not aggravate the hell out of the public? I think he took offense at my pointing out that my experience was going to be posted on several boards. As bad as he is about dispensing information, he's extremely good at exasperating the public. Didn't even call him any names, well, idiot and twit. But not in the same email.
Oh, any idea why the ridge cap flanges went under the panels?
Thanks again for the help they refused to give.
Forget to mention that the tee molding was never screwed or glued to anything other than the screws going into the ribbed channel. And the butyl sealing strips to the panels. Nothing on what I thought was the top, that you're saying is actually the bottom.
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Edited 12/2/2004 3:00 pm ET by VaTom
tom... sounds like you got off on the wrong foot...
Kalwall has a great reputation.. my only problem with them is i don't like fiberglass panels... i like real glass.. more permanent..
i think the ridge detail you are looking for is this one... it is a self supporting ridge.. which is why one part goes under the panel ..and a one-piece cap screws down into that ..
http://www.kalwall.com/cad_drawings/selfsupported/selfsupported.htm
i don't know these people.. i may have met Scott Keller ( a brother , i believe ) in the late '7o's..
we were moving a lot of product for him ( "little Kalwall" Solar Components Corp)Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Actually we started out great. He was very friendly, asked for photos, any details I could find, original customer's name, and how to call and send me things. He got it all and I could hardly believe how helpful he was gonna be. Next email from him was... get lost. I suggested it was better to blow off the public on the first get-go than to promise help and then withdraw the offer. He did piss me off finally.
And I have no hesitation to trash their reputation. Might've worked for you as the original purchaser, but I got nothing but aggravation. And a threat about turning me in to "the authorities". The alternative arch lists thrive on recycling. It's important to make everybody aware that Kalwall will give absolutely no help in that regard. I can figure out how to use a lot of odd things, but not everybody can, especially with the refusal of any mfg. advice. Relieved that I haven't been saying nasty things about anybody in your family.
Thanks, but that isn't the ridge detail. Mine is a single piece that has flanges that drop down on both sides. Clearly had silicone where something, panels I presume, was stuck on top of the flanges. Nothing screwed down at all. Just like the tee moldings that I'd assumed went over the panels, nothing screwed down. Looks like I need to peruse their online offerings. Sure won't get anything any other way.
Other than your help, of course, which I do greatly appreciate. I gather you don't know if a greenhouse is a good application. Bruce Keller wouldn't tell me.
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
they're great for green houses ..but get the catalogue from Solar Components..
or log on to their site..
http://www.solar-components.com
you don't have to deal with Bruce.. just whoever answers the phone at Solar Components...
(603) 668-8186
tom.. no matter what... you might want to think about just forgetting about what an asz bruce is ...and just leave it alone..
you and i can think what we like... but here's a good business policy , for me , anyway....
......."always leave 'em smilin".....
BTW... i don't come by that natcherly.. it took 30 years of being married to a professional travel agent... she just makes it into a game... one that she usually wins
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 12/2/2004 8:29 pm ET by Mike Smith
My wife tells me similar. She's in sales too, but nothing so tough as travel <shudder>. No wonder yours got rave reviews after your hosting.
Only once in my 30 yrs of self-employment had much of a problem with a customer. And he was a GC that I put a mechanics' lien on his customer, head of the Colorado Dem party at the time. I learned a long time ago to avoid potential problems, missed once. Sometimes overlooked a good potential, but in the long haul worked very well.
Companies that won't stand behind their products are a little different. And Bruce is finished here. Nothing else to say. Did request to hear from somebody else there, but not expecting it.
I also don't shoot my feet. Thanks for the references. I have another email address that Bruce and his staff haven't seen. Set it up primarily for online registration.
I'll keep y'all posted with my progress. But I'm not fast, be patient. Or come over and help.... PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
VaTom, looks like you're heading in the right direction with those Kalwalls. Keep us updated on how they work out for you (pictures are always good). I like to salvage stuff too.
Chevy dealership had moved across town and they did a demolition auction on the old place. I must have stood there for an hour trying to come up with some use for those 9' tall glass windows... some of which open up to let you drive cars through. Finally decided it was too much work for one person. God only knows what each one weighed!
jt8
Edited 12/2/2004 11:24 pm ET by JohnT8
I must have stood there for an hour trying to come up with some use for those 9' tall glass windows... some of which open up to let you drive cars through.
How'd you know?
It was a large truck dealer here. My 9'x6', IIRC, panels were easily handled by 2. Single-glazed. 2 of the 3 were doors, but nothing I wanted to swing. They're downstairs from where some of the roof panels are going. Make a great smoked glass wall.
Came from an auction where the demo guy couldn't figure out anything to do with them. Along with a pile of commercial-sized garage doors and one roll-up. Building has the roll-up and one of the garage doors already installed on the bottom floor.
Total cost for the auction truckload was $72. And my truck ain't small.
Reason the building exists was a previous auction purchase of barjoists and the decking to go with. Plus, same auction, a 42" wide 3 drum sander that needed its own building, occupying 8'x9' of floor (11k lbs). Everybody else there apparently thought it a boat anchor.
Now, before anybody gets excited, I live in a tight inspection area. But there's this little oddity called "farm building". For $25 permit fee I get zoning inspection only. Allowed up to 10k sq ft, or maybe 40k sq ft, I forget. Build whatever you want. If it falls down, your problem. Only restriction is use for farm and farm products only. I just happen to have a tree "farm". At least that's the way it's taxed (cheap). Then anything that comes out of a tree is a farm product. Works for me. <G> PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Tom,
Build a greenhouse. I would.
Drool.
SamT
Great minds working alike, or what?
Do you know if they are actually good for a greenhouse? I've got raised beds on the roof that would work out very well with a cover. A roof on the roof....PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
It is either Kalwall or the competing product from Major Industries. Rugged stuff, lasts a long time.
Kalwall, and Major too, I believe, have downloadable details at their websites that show sections and details for installations. Might be of use to you.
My bathroom window, shown in the attached, is from Major Industries.
gene.. that's really cool...
guess i'd have to do a real stretch to work that into a colonial or a craftsmanMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Kalwall or one of the clones is a great way to do a bathroom window. Good light, good privacy.
Here is a pic that shows the window from the outside. The house has a little bit of a Craftsman look with its outside shapes and details.
When I did this project, I could not get Kalwall to talk to me about supply, thus I went with Major Industries. Kallwall sells direct or through independent reps, and does only commercial and industrial stuff. Didn't want to deal with a residential order, no matter what.
Back in the 70s, I put up a lot of this stuff, mostly on the turbine rooms of powerplants.
gene..nice integration.. really says " i belong here "Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Gene, that's a neat BA. I like that tub/shower layout. Lets you jump right from one to the other.
And that vehicle in the drive ain't too bad either. That yours?jt8
The pic inside was taken before we installed the glass shower/bath partition and door. That little tub up on the deck is a one-person Asian style soaking tub. Sit in it with hot water up to one's neck.
The car belongs to my wife's bodyguard. ;-)
That little tub up on the deck is a one-person Asian style soaking tub. Sit in it with hot water up to one's neck.
That sounds nice. Sure you can't get two people in there?
jt8
Really is very nice. Had to chuckle though, we wouldn't consider anything that didn't let us see the trees here. We don't have neighbors and aren't particularly modest.
No comment on Kalwalls' reluctance to help you. <G>
Is that better Mike? <rhetorical question>PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
mellow, tom.... mellowMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore