Greetings All,
I have been a self employed furniture builder for the past 9 years. Since 9-11 business has fallen off and I decided to take a job with a local builder on a rather large project. Since I started about six months ago, I have found myself drawn to trim carpentry. I have worked on simple to extremely elaborate designs and absolutely LOVE it! I am thinking of going solo with a trim/finish carpentry business but really don’t know what to expect as an hourly wage. Is anyone willing to share what a good trim carpenter might be making these days? Of course I realise the many factors potentially affecting wages, but I really don’t know what to expect. All I know is my pay rate now is well below the quality of work I have been producing so far and I really feel like I’m getting screwed here. Thanks.
Abram
Replies
Most guys around here charge by the square footage for basic trim in new construction. Installing cabinets, stair railings, jamb extensions, extreme closet shelving etc... are billed extra.
going rate around here is 1.00-1.20/sq ft to hang. about double if you stain and finish also. This is general trim in standard spec quality house. Goes up from there depending on level of difficulty.
Thanks for the reply Splinter! Guess I should have mentioned I live in Upstate New York, and we seem to have a lot of building going on here. I will be searching this forum for more information on my question though. I also ordered a couple trim books for inspiration and learning which should help as well. Sort of off the subject though,it seems as if new blood (good blood that is) in the building trade is a bit of a rarity. This seems strange. I will turn 29 this year and, in comparison to the guys I work with and the subs coming and going at our project, I'm actually quite young. Never really noticed that until now but yeah, that seems odd. Where are the greenhorns? Am I IT? Thanks again!
Abram
Your going into business as a trim Carpenter sub, right?
So I think your going to have to start thinking like a businessman providing services as a trim carpenter.
Not to belabor the point, but I've seen a number of highly talented finish carpenters who view themselves as "independent wage" earners and end up divorced, broke and in the end, going back to work as an employee for a businessman providing services as a trim sub.
So, your "wage" needs to include all the things that will create a legitimate business for yourself. A living wage, overhead, (insurance-business, health, truck, tools, ect) and.....the reason your in business..............profit.
Jerrald H. has posted an enormous amount of high quality information and is a real help to guys considering business questions. And if I know Jerrald, he's gonna hammer you for working T&M.
So to answer your question, what is your competition getting? $45.00? $60.00? $75.00 per hour. Bet it's in that range.
McDonnell- "Jerrald H. has posted an enormous amount of high quality information and is a real help to guys considering business questions. And if I know Jerrald, he's gonna hammer you for working T&M." Awwaugh I not that bad am I? Na, I don't like T&M but to tell you the truth if you never done the work in question before and/or you don't have some estimating data you can really trust and/or you don't have much estimating experience under your belt what else can you do?
But the better profits and the easier sales I think certainly come from submitting fixed price bids. Heyoka hasn't come right out and said that he's going to do T&M work (although I think the implication was there). He could have been looking for a rate to combine with some hourly productivity figures to work up fixed price bids. We'll have to see what he tells us. Given that he's been a "self employed furniture builder" for a while and been working with a local builder for a while he might be starting to get a handle on the kinds of thing he needs to judge to be able to produce a real estimate. We'll have to see.
At the very least he's smart enough that he knows to read and ask questions.
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Abram,
Where "upstate" are you? I am curious because I am considering a move upstate and I am interestid to learn what the job and housing market is like.
You may respond off the board if you'd like.
Thanks, Eric
ps, don't sell your self short; if you are going out on your own the difference you need to make up between an hourly wage working for a boss and what you need to bill to cover your overhead is great, This has been discussed at much length many times here, there are some sharp tacks here in regards to this subject.
Heyoka, ya know when you say ",it seems as if new blood (good blood that is) in the building trade is a bit of a rarity" that not at all off the subject and is absolutely true. The good news with that is that the law of supply and demand means you can charge more if you really are "good blood". 29 year old carpenter? Very, very rare. Domestic or imported? The only young carpenters under 30 I know are of an imported vintage.
So what books did ya get? If you didn't get them already. You also might want to check out Jim Tolpin’s Finish Carpenter's Manual. One of the real good things about the book is at the end of each chapter he gives some of his own man-hour figures for the task he has just described and there a good foundation to start from in building your own. Also check out the new edition of Gary Katz’s Finish Carpentry: Efficient Techniques for Custom Interiors, No man-hour figures in it but it's full of great technique ideas. I now use both those books as training manuals for new hires.
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I know this has been covered a hundred times, but you can in fact make a living and run a sucessful business charging by the square foot trimming out new construction. I have done it for years and so has every other trim man I know. Most of the houses are not that different. Sure there are some that will take a lot longer than others but you can see that in the plans. The builder knows what is covered in the square ft. price and what is extra. I started about 10 years ago at 35 cents a square foot and now charge about 1.25 for an average house with base, window stools and trim, interior doors ,2 or three rooms of crown, shoe in kitchen and bath, and simple closet shelf pole set up.
Charles-
There's no doubt you can "make money" charging by the square foot- but you're playing the law of averages- you do OK on some jobs, take a bath on others, and in the end, hopefully you make a few bucks.
Jerrald's point, and mine as well, is that trim carpentry is not a linear thing- a 2,000 SF house doesn't have twice the trim of a 1,000 SF house- it could have 1.5 times the work, or it could have 3 times the amount of work. Now, if all the houses you work in are very similar, and the square footage range is relatively tight (say, 1,500 to 2,000 SF), you can "probably" come up with a per/SF number that works OK for you based on historical data. It's just really not the best way to do things, and it'll burn you if you ever charge to a different size range of houses (say 4,000 SF homes).
My thinking, and Jerrald will agree (I hope....lol), is that you're better off breaking the job down into pieces that CAN be thought of linearly- LF of base, # of doors, etc. The price per LF to install 3 1/2" base basically the same if your installing 500 LF or 800 LF. Same goes for doors- hang one, or hang ten, the cost per door is about the same. Of course, this method requires that you do a takeoff of all the quantitiles, where most builders would rather you just shoot them a SF proice so they can extrapolate the cost for any future house. If that's the way you want to work, and it's working for you, who am I to question it, right?
Bob
Charles I need a lot more explaining and some examples or mathematical models that would show me how the math would work out before you could ever convince me of that. The only way and the only way it would work and there still would be a fair amount of statistical variation in the sampled data would be if you were doing essentially the same house over and over again with the only variation be the size of the house.
"Most of the houses are not that different." I don't know about that at all. Even if the houses are basically the same there can still be a tremendous amount of differences in the numbers. What is an average house anyway? Do average houses have crown molding in every room or just the living room? Here I have a two houses with 1000 sf of floor space, they don't look too much different so maybe the SF price for trim will work...
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Nahhh.... the lower plan has more trim. There is 408'-6" linear feet in the top one and the lower has 503'-9" linear feet. The lower one has 23% more trim! 23% More! They don't look that much different but the math doesn't lie. You mentioned "2 or three rooms of crown" and the difference there will also add to the potential variance. Increase the sizes of the houses to 5000 sf and not only is the the total linear footage of trim that your giving away more that percentage variance could increase too.
And besides what do you do when the client asks you for Crown in all the rooms. Well you charge extra for that but how much extra? If you don't have a Unit Cost Pricing schedule developed and in place what do you charge? What happens when if your client wants to switch the standard base molding with a three piece built up design? And what would you do about curved molding?
A contractor I know makes a post here the other day regarding the numbers in his estimating database. He writes:
Back in the fall of 99 he was the guy that first got me to write out that example of the problem with square foot estimating that I used in that page The Hidden Dangers of Square Foot Estimating. In that original discussion way back then he was talking about using a percentage to modify a SF rate and I quote "In other words, when construction starts to leave the "norm" how do you modify your price? Is it 5% more? 10%? 50%? How do you quantify it? ". And obviously he's still experiencing the same problem today. Albeit he talking about framing and were talking about finish but when it comes right down to it they both experience that same kind of problems with SF estimating. By the way I do know of tons of framers that use SF pricing and I happen to thing they are giving away work for free too and I sure the GC's they work for know it and love it too.
After reading the example that I used comparing those two decks he said back then that he would "have no trouble doing the smaller deck for $288 less than your unit cost example. It represents a lot less work! " Huh? What's' he talking about? He just didn't get the math. He didn't see or understand the relationships (and maybe still doesn't).
He's obviously still experiencing the same problems. I happen to know what his timecard looks like like and it has two categories for framing. Framing and Framing Roofs. The reason he's experiences the "wide differences" is he hasn't broken down the work into enough component processes to evaluate it accurately. Wall framing does not proceed at the same rate as framing floor decks. Sheathing a roof proceeds at a different rate than framing the rafters of a roof etc. Crown proceeds at a different productivity rate than base.
This months issue Professional Remodeler had the results of a survey they conducted of their readers. Those readers as a group were a fairly successful grouping of contractors and the average Net Profit figure that their companies earned was 11.5%. With a potential variance of costs of 23% as in the example above should we be willing to give twice our Net Profit on some projects?
I don't want it to seem like I'm beating up (or ganging up with Bob) on you or any other SF estimators but I just can't get the math to work and no one has ever been able to show me how it does. SF estimating does have a place though. It's okay for making rough guesses or SWAGs.
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I have to agree, a smaller matrix will be more accurate than a bigger matrix. However, there is also the factor of how much time it takes to do the estimate, so somewhere a happy medium is needed. If it takes 10 minutes to do a sq.ft. estimate but an hour to measure and cost out all trim work in a detailed fashion, then if you only get a small percentage of bids, you are spending a lot of time doing estimates instead of doing chargeable work. Of course, if with the sq.ft. estimate, you only get the jobs that those with sharper pencils figure are loosers, then you could end up with a negative profit picture. As the old joke goes, if you are losing 5 cents per unit you sell, you can't make up for it in volume...
Of course, I haven't used your system (as I am paid on salary) so I have no idea how long it actually takes to do a detail breakout of a typical house. My point being that there has to be a happy medium between aggregating and separating components. So, what you really need to do is to create a low cost, artificial intelligence program into which you feed a file giving the layout and pertinent information and it spits out a bid...
I am in upstate NY, way upstate. Lake Placid. Good trim guys get $25 to $35 per hour. If the project is a "great camp" style, and all the big ones are, in and around here, they are outfitted in log, twig, and birchbark detail, and the specialists that do that stuff get even more.
All the information posted about trim work as a specialty and how to go about doing business, especially estimating and costing, is true. If you are able, get as much work as you can on an hourly basis while you work out your cost units and your methods. The really efficient guys I see here did work on a piecework basis sometime in their past (so many dollars per door, window, lf of base, etc.) and learned their efficient ways then, and apply them now.
O.K. fellas, I'll need about a week to find the time to read, re-read, and absorb all the information you've provided. I seriously did not expect to find this much response! Thank you to all! Anyway, the point I'm at now (my position in the building trade) in my mind I'm paying my dues. This is my first step in the door and I have alot to learn as far as pricing goes and dealing with other builders and GC'c. I am learning. My biggest lesson so far is that some people will feed you a line of crap about how the multi- million dollar project doesn't have the funds to pay you $12 an hour to do the finest work possible, so take what you get. And yes, we will use you for chump jobs and make you feel as if you know nothing, despite the fact you probably know better and more accurate ways of getting a tedious job done. than most of the hackers there! (sorry guys, yeah I'm a little bothered). Anyway, it is very different compared to building custom furniture. With furniture I always dealt directly with the homeowner, there was never a middle man. I drew sketches, offered wood selections and (listen up Mr Micro) designed bark and twig patterns. I estimated my cost of materials, labor (it's only me), delivery (yes/no), and any new tools required to finish the project. This method worked well for me. Charging by square footage seems odd in my mind, but maybe it really is the best way. I really don't know. Say though you bid two jobs figuring square footage alone, both being identicle square footage. Might be right on the money for house #1, but what if house #2 happens to have more windows and doors than house #1? Or has small details which end up taking more time than you anticipated using the square foot method? Charging by lineal foot, looking at each room and closet individually, determining what moldings go where and how much will each room differ, getting into the nitty gritties BEFORE and numbers fly seems logical to me. Of course there is more to it than that but by square footage alone seems too risky. As far as books are concerned, I ordered Jim Tolpin's "Finish Carpenter's Manual", and Craig Savage's " Trim Carpentry Techniques". Hopefully they'll help. And to Mr. Micro, I live in Schroon Lake and have participated in the Adirondack Museum's Rustic Furniture Fair for the last 4 years. Rustic carpentry is what I am trying to branch off to, as well as traditional trim carpentry. I am presently working in a 15,000 sq. ft. log home in Loch Muller. I have done a great deal of trim work and notched and installed logs which should have been put in during constuction. Add on's. He has me doing lot's of chump jobs too which quite honestly, insult my intelligence and abilities as a craftsman who really cares about his work. So yeah, I need to work more independently, and in a field that I relly enjoy. Trim and rustic carpentry get's me goin'. It's tedious and requires patience, and everyone else seems to hate it. Anyway guys, my wife just got home. Gotta go. I'll read more later and respond again. thank you!
Heyoka
a 15,000 sq. ft. log home
Yikes. At least you didn't say Cabin! (good topic you started, good luck to you)
And yes, we will use you for chump jobs and make you feel as if you know nothing, despite the fact you probably know better and more accurate ways of getting a tedious job done. ,,,,, Hmmm, something about that bothers me, problaly just me though. The way I figure it, and only for me, "It's all work, and it all pays", Good Luck out there, and Happy Thanksgiving.
Heyoka, I almost forgot the other ingrediant, " It's all a state of mind". Cheers
CaseyR-"there is also the factor of how much time it takes to do the estimate, so somewhere a happy medium is needed. If it takes 10 minutes to do a sq.ft. estimate but an hour to measure and cost out all trim work in a detailed fashion, then if you only get a small percentage of bids, you are spending a lot of time doing estimates instead of doing chargeable work."
That is very true Casey but a couple of things need to be looked at just a little bit closer in what you just said. "If it takes 10 minutes to do a sq.ft. estimate" Ten minutes to do a SF Estimate? How about 10 seconds! Alright maybe a minute and a half if the GC didn't tell you the SF or you don't trust them and you have to measure the plan. That's why so many small contractors find it appealing and use it. It's quick and it's fast. But it comes with a large potential risk and downside too.
:...but an hour to measure and cost out all trim work in a detailed fashion," On the other side of the fence the problem is that most contractors don't have a systematic method in place for estimating and seem to reinvent the wheel with every single estimate calling up or stopping into lumber yards to get prices for the building material they need. They then also spend a lot of time thinking things like "gee there are 27 prehung doors on this job, hmmnnn I think that will take three days to install them" rather than looking up a number in a database such as ".842 labor hours to "Install solid or architectural pre-hung interior door". .842 labor hours times come to 22.73 hours or 2.84 days, within 6% of the look at and think guesstimate in this case. But those 6% errors since they're based on the contractors subjective judgment can be of either way by a lot more than that.
It is my opinion and empirical observation (I don't have any studies that I can cite on this) but I think it's a lot better practice to use a standard benchmark figure like that .842 and make a decision in and After Action Review (aka Job Costing procedure) if the number works for you and your crew. If it didn't. You look at why it didn't. Let's say the installation of those doors took 30 hours (or 3.75 days) basically either one of two things then occurred. Either that .842 labor hour per door productivity figure was wrong for your personnel or you missed something with the take-off or estimate. Perhaps that .842 figure was for just hanging the doors and didn't include installing the lockset. or maybe you didn't account for the fact that moving them the storage trailer down at the bottom of a steep driveway accounted for that extra time. You then learn that well yeah YOU CAN STILL USE that .842 figure but you will also need to account for the other possible situations and/or scenarios with either a contingency adjustment or a budgeted line item.
Wow that a lot of work for an simple estimate! Well not really if you have a system that automated and that's my point. We don't have to call for prices on five or ten kinds of trim or lumber with every job we look at. We have those prices in our database already and if we notice that on one project the price for 2x6s went up we then change it and that 2x4 price which is linked to (used by) 40 labor items in our costbook is updated and those 40 costbook items are too automatically.
Then what you get if you automate those standard parts of the estimating process, rather than spending your time and energy making subjective judgments about how long the all of the work is going to take you. You can spend your time, energy, and subjective thinking on estimating JUST THE PARTS of your estimate that are more difficult to quantify and can't be assigned a number from a database such as that moving the doors from their storage area.
Hey it takes a a little while to learn or develop a system but the benefits in terms of increased estimating speed and accuracy are enormous. Obviously developing a comprehensive system in Excel or some tool such as Access or FileMaker takes a lot lot longer than springing for BuildWorks, Home-Tech, or something like MasterBuilder or even Timberline (the tool that BobK uses) so that part of it is a judgment call. But I am really amazed at how many contractors (a lot of them here on BreakTime too!!) don't even use Excel and still estimate with yellow legal pads and repeated trips and/or phone calls to the lumber yards.
"Of course, if with the sq.ft. estimate, you only get the jobs that those with sharper pencils figure are losers, then you could end up with a negative profit picture. As the old joke goes, if you are losing 5 cents per unit you sell, you can't make up for it in volume..." I really liked that and I think your putting your finger exactly on the result of the problem and the kind of dangerous thinking that often accompany's it. I'll have to bookmark this topic so I can quote you sometime in the future because you know this is going to come up again and again and again.
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whatever system you use to estimate the cost of doing something should reflect the local custom.. Sure good business practice may mean that you breakdown every piece and charge accordingly but what if the job is so simple that it will require less than a 1/2 a day, or works out to be 3 1/2 days?
Since you may not have another 1/2 day job that you can dovetail in at that time what do you do, bid a whole day and overcharge? Charge for actual time used but waste over a half a day non-productively? Do you discount the job somewhat so that you can schedule it at a time convienant for you?
Then market conditions need to be factored in. Anyone who adjust's his costs based on market conditions is either so large as to have staff time need to calculate that or would rather be a manager than a craftsman.. (I'm not suggesting that it is wrong to be a manager, just that time to manage things has it's own costs and anything that isn't going into direct production is overhead.. If you took business courses in college you know that fixed overhead is one cost that needs constant diligence to control.. without control you will shortly become overpriced)
In the end there are countless factors which affect prices/costs/profits.. The best way to handle those is to charge what the market pays and work to become either so effiecent that you make better profit than your competitors or do such quality of work that you are always in demand because of your skill.
trying to "manage" your way into profitablity is the classic mistake most businesses make.
Jerrald: It is interesting to read all the posts on this topic. You are most definately on top of the figures. However...some of us out here are not all wired the same. I can honestly say I am only intelligent enough to just partially understand what you are trying to convey. My eyes glaze over reading your posts....Dont get me wrong....I am not knocking at all what you are saying. I am just admitting to having my energies more directed at how to build the stairways that are presented to me...and to build them efficiently. I just am not one to have a computer tell me how to make money. I have a system that has worked for years. I have NEVER lost money on a job yet..and honestly havent even come close to losing money.
My simple way of estimating is this,...I estimate the total materials for the stairway...then double that.
I then estimate the number of days to build this stairway..and to install it. I add a few days for a cushion...this is a bonus to me if I am on schedule...and an insurance policy for still making good money if I am having problems.
My price per day is confidential...but it most definately is enough to cover my desired wage and shop overhead. This price per day is for actual stair production....and this is high enough to cover all the non production times such as job bidding...floor sweeping...staring at the deer outside my shop....etc,.,.
Now...I will admit that since I build custom curved stairways,..I am kind of in my own little niche and can basically name my price. So just to be fair to you...my case is probably different. I have always seen the need to specialize..and my gut feeling has been right for me.
My system has checks and balances in it. If I misfigured the materials...I have the materials doubled to cover that. My labor has some days of cushion. The bigger the job..the more cushion I throw in also. Another point...the more uncertainty I have for a project as far as estimating how long it will take me..the more radical I get with estimating the days I estimate for the pricing.
One example is the first elliptical stairway I ever built. I thought...hmm...every tread is a different pattern...plus all the different mitering angles...layout..etc. I ended up adding a weeks extra work just to be safe. In the end...it only took about a day and a half extra.
Interesting you should bring this up Stan. I been gearing up to ask you about how you go about estimating stair projects so we could actually compare notes and techniques as part of something computer related I am working on. You beat me to the punch or you were reading my mind. I'm about to sign off the net for Thanksgiving so I'm not going to try and write what I had wanted to ask you about tonight but when I turn the computer back on Friday I'll try to get to that.
One thing that quick and easy that I've been meaning to ask you is do you do any straight stairs? We don't do any. There's another stair shop just up the road from us an whenever we get a project with straight run stairs we just get them from them and even after we've marked them up I swear it still cheaper than we could ever build them. The only thing we will do is build the curved transitions or a curved winder and some of the curved railing parts which is what the management pundits would refer to as our "core competency". Sometimes we even sub out curved stairs too from them or perhaps Arcways and we'll just build the railing components that no one else want to attempt.
I have a hunch from what you written before and have just written now that you are intuitively practicing some good management techniques and methods and you just don't know what they are called. I was never a naturally good financial manager. My strengths were very much elsewhere. I had to learn my lesson by getting spanked bad a couple of couple of times years ago before I finally set out to learn what I really needed to know to succeed.
Have a Happy Thanksgiving. How is your son doing these days?
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Jeff is doins superb...thanks for asking. I will look forward to any questions...but please dont expect nothing but simple answers. :)
Edited 11/26/2003 9:41:19 PM ET by Stan Foster
" My eyes glaze over reading your posts....Dont get me wrong....I am not knocking at all what you are saying. "
My wife has a CPA background and does almost all of my paperwork. She's now a consultant for other businesses and is certified in various personality tools (Myers-Briggs, Kolbe, Enneagram). We're firm believers that each indiviual has certain natural instincts that make some tasks easier then others. I believe what Jerald is saying is very important. I believe pricing by the square foot is nuts. I've heard some guys just taking the cost of materials and multiplying it by 3, or something or other, in order to estimate a job. I just know I'm not the one to do all this paperwork or my eyes glaze over as well. If I had to do all this figuring myself, and I didn't have my wife,.......I'd use the sq. ft. pricing as well 'cause I ain't gonna do it. But that's not the case, and if it was, I think I'd be smart enough to pay someone else to do it for me! I'd rather be swinging a hammer then sitting at my desk!
jocobe
jocobe: I honestly think that my prices based on _____dollars a day is what makes my system work for me,,and with very little thought. I usually get a bid back in a few hours...then back to production I go. If say down the road..I cant seem to stay caught up with the bills..then either my price per day will go up..or I will just get more efficient.
I admit that my profession is specialized...and there are just not too many people in my area who "want" to build curved stairways. I always say "want", and never say "cant"..because I know better. I know many high end finish carpenters in my area that are superb craftsmen..and I have no doubt they could forget their trim and cabinet work..and specialize just in stairs....but they dont "want" to. T
Frenchy those ar really great questions and topics to be examined too. Especially the scheduling issues of those 1/2 day jobs you've brought up. Question for you? Aren't you a timber framer or am I thinking of someone else? If so then I have some of the same types of question that I have for Stan that I like to ask of you too if your into Timber Framing. I'll be back online Friday evening, hope to talk to ya then.
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Sure, I'm doing a timberframe right now.. Love to talk about it..
I really dont intend to debate this issue because my system works fine for me and I have no interest in yours. An extra room of crown may take half an hour to hang once im set up to run the rest of the house, so a few of those will not cost me much and my square foot pricing takes into account the fact that some jobs will take longer than others. In other words some houses will take a half day less than planned, some will take more and they more or less average out. I am not saying there is no merit in coming up with hourly and piece prices, they have their place and I use them to add in extras. The problem is your opinion that a square foot price can not be anything other than a guess. That is not true. The question that was asked was on square foot pricing. That is the answer I gave. If you wish to complicate it further then that is fine with me. I would rather spend an extra hour running trim than estimating or going over a computer spreadsheet. If you want to consider the term " making a living" as derogatory then that is your choice. That is not what I said anyway. I have been very sucessful in this area pricing by the square foot and feel it is the easiest and quickest way for me. No builder I have ever worked for would give you the job based on any other system because that is what they understand. They want a square foot price and that is what they are given. I know my costs and square foot pricing works for me. You are complicating things beyond what is needed, if this is what you enjoy then have at it.
While reading Charles' response to you, Jerrald, I am bothered by your soliciting members to purchase your estimating program. Suggesting to another the use of a program and then defending its merit is great as long as you don't own stock in the company.
I seem to recall an earlier post where someone questioned you on this and you said you were approved by Taunton. If so fine,but don't push to hard. A lot of us here, myself included, are know-it-alls at something but were not trying to make a profit with our advice.
JAGWAH-"I am bothered by your soliciting members to purchase your estimating program. Suggesting to another the use of a program and then defending its merit is great as long as you don't own stock in the company." Aaahhh ya know I thought about that for a second but didn't feel morally wrong in doing what I did there. I had a "tool" (the cost calculator function of the Labor Cost Worksheet) that could very certainly help out Heyoka and potentially keep him from making some big errors. Am I supposed to stay mum about it just because it could possibly promote a product I've designed? I thought the benefits and upside to Heyoka out weighed bothering a few souls here which I knew it would although I've got to say I really didn't think it would both anybody that much that they would call me on that issue.
"I seem to recall an earlier post where someone questioned you on this and you said you were approved by Taunton." I don't recall ever saying anything like that but there was one time where someone did complain and complained rather loudly online and I deleted every think that I had posted when I was trying to just get some feedback and ideas for the development of my TimeKeeping systems. He then wrote to me later on saying that he had maybe overreacted and things are copasetic today between us but all the discussion of that particular topic is lost for the sake a little bit too much over concern and policing of potential commercial exploitation.
"Suggesting to another the use of a program and then defending its merit is great as long as you don't own stock in the company." JAGWAH I think if you go back and look through all of my posts over the years I think you'll find that I've made tons of recommendations for HomeTech, Buildworks, the data and the software that comes as part of the Craftsman books and now even MasterBuilder and Timberline as well as others in the past too.
Back in September I even extended an offer to the now defunct Taunton Business Newsletter where they could distribute licenses and I'll quote myself here "give that edition away for free to your new Business Newsletter subscribers". Well,... the powers there either never got wind of that or it wasn't enough to save the newsletter idea because it was like a week later when I got the word that the Business Newsletter idea was being killed.
As it is I asked lot of people privately to look at the program while I was developing it and those beta testers who actually gave me real constructive feedback,... I gave them licenses for free. And to the very best of my knowledge I have never earned one cent for anything my companies do either software, web design, or stairs and railing fabrication from any BreakTime or JLC forum contributor . Just so you know I have been planning to take that Labor Cost Worksheet and break it out of the solution and make it a stand alone product that I can give away for free but I just haven't had the time to do it yet. It's probably only two or three hours of work to separate the Labor Cost Worksheet out and get then get Mac & Windows versions bound and uploaded but when I read Heyoka's post and then McDonnell's mention that I was probably going to say something I couldnt resist the temptation and stopped what I was working on, chosing to post then rather than wait till some other time.
You should also know that the software that enables me to create something like that costs $300 bucks for Filemaker a few years ago and another $500 more recently for the Developers Edition that allows me to bind the solution into standalone applications. I haven't even upgraded to the newer versions 6 since nothing I've developed has earned me a red cent yet. Nadda. I do plan to advertise eventually in both FineHomeBuilding and some of the other trade magazines this winter too but not until some cash starts to come in help pay for it.
So all things considered I don't feel sorry about making that mention but I still don't feel like such a bad guy in doing so. I am very certainly no RK (remember him?). But I will continue in the to take your feelings and the sentiments of some of the others here into consideration.
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Charles while "debating" an issue, listening to and examining both sides of an issue I think is very good and beneficial for everyone here on BreakTime I don't want to "argue". I agree with Bob Kovacs when says "There's no doubt you can "make money" charging by the square foot- but you're playing the law of averages- you do OK on some jobs, take a bath on others, and in the end, hopefully you make a few bucks.... If that's the way you want to work, and it's working for you, who am I to question it, right?" Hey if it works for you okay but I think both sides of the issue can be represented.
I've got a friend and specialty trade contractor we work closely with on a lot of projects and he estimates everything by the SF or the JHMCISTJF method (Just How Much Can I Sell This Job For Method) but the prices he bids with are extremely high and he wins his projects on pure salesmanship and the sheer number of "at bats" he gets. He probably does four or more estimates a day and while he only closes on 1 out of seven or eight his margin is so high he's one of the most successful contractors I know. And yet even his system can be quantified and put into a database program so that it could be spread around his company for other sales persons to use too.
I am not saying there is no merit in SF estimating. I already stated it could work if you end up doing exactly the same kind of project over and over again. It also works for the contractor friend I just mentioned too.
The dangerous thing in what you are saying with "No builder I have ever worked for would give you the job based on any other system because that is what they understand. They want a square foot price and that is what they are given." is that a bunch of builders (that I know of personally) know and feel they can muscle or pressure subs by using the SF pricing issue. On acquaintance of mine said while we were talking about this one night said "yeah I know it's bogus [referring to SF] but it works [referring] to pressuring subs on price. While he is an acquaintance,... we don't work on any of his projects. There are also probably just as many builders that don't understand the logic of the math too.
"You are complicating things beyond what is needed, if this is what you enjoy then have at it." Geez I really can't win here, it always seems I'm being accused of over complicating things. That's fine but for our company, in our region, doing the kinds of projects we do, I don't see it as over complicating things at all. All contractors are not the same and likewise not all markets are the same either.
A couple of years ago I bid a project where I produced a very detailed estimate (a few pages) and at least one of the other contractors submitted an estimate that was just a few paragraphs long that he probably came up with on a SF method (I know that because it was shown to me). The GC told me he hired us even tough we were by far the most expensive he was confident we had covered all the issues and he could use our estimate data to calculate (estimate) changes that he expected the owner client to make.
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While I agree that debate can be usefull there comes a point when it is overdone. I dont spend a lot of time here but can recall dozens of posts by you, maybe even hundreds talking about the same thing. You have some legitimate points but you seem to believe that the only right way is your way. You jump on every topic about estimating and pricing with the same advice. Some people such as myself do very well with square foot pricing and the legal pad approach. You dont seem to take into consideration that some of us dont want to run fortune 500 companies, or have every aspect of the business analyzed on a computer spreadsheet to be called up at any moment. A guy just getting started could do very well bidding trim packages by the square foot. If he doesnt make money he will have to try a different approach. It is an approach that works if you know your costs, and if he doesnt know his costs your methods will not work either. I have nothing against computerizing the bid process any more than I do about any other technological advance in my trade. I choose not to do it that way because #1 I have no reason too, and #2 I would rather enjoy a few extra hours on a jobsite making something than a few extra hours on the computer punching in figures.
charlesc-"I don't spend a lot of time here but can recall dozens of posts by you, maybe even hundreds talking about the same thing." Aww come on I'm not nearly as prolific as a lot of people here. I just checked and I've got 862. Piffen probably has at least 862,000 and there are many other names here that blow my number away too.
"...you seem to believe that the only right way is your way." I absolutley do not think that at all and that's really diametrically opposed to both my company's culture and my own personal belief systems and thinking. That's not even close to my reasons and thinking behind what I write and post. I lost my shirt (twice) years ago thinking perhaps I didn't need some of the answers and thinking that goes on in other people minds. I'm not so stupid nowadays. I ask questions of everybody from the eighteen year old kid from Guatemala to the seasoned old retired veteran builders I know. That's not even close to my thinking. First of all none of "my way" is wholly "my way". It all comes from other sources. My friends and co-workers will tell you that one of the most common expressions I say is that there is not an original idea in my head. Everything I say I learned, stole, acquired, read about, or co-opted from someone smarter than me. Like I just said to JR most of this stuff I've only finally figured out in that last ten years. If you want to blow me off just because it's simpler and more convenient for you to think of me as a jerk your welcome to that line of thinking too.
"You jump on every topic about estimating and pricing with the same advice." Ah that maybe true but what am I supposed to do? Just shut up and let people make the same mistakes I've made without offering my take? Or maybe I should just make stuff up to say? I actually do do that in real life and find it helps shakes things up and gets people thinking when my coworkers recognize that I'm full of #### with something I just said or its just a real bad idea. But given the nature of the medium I don't think that's a good strategy for online dialog.
I perhaps spend a lot of time talking with and listening to people's thinking on estimating because in case you hadn't figured it out I've been working on developing an estimating system that I can market as a commercial product and finding out just what people think and practice is part of the research. In additon to talking about online I also maybe sent out fifty to seventy five email asking for opinons and advice. I also talk to every contractor I work or have worked with about just how they estimate. The problems they've face, the techniques they use and what they dlike and dislike about "estimating programs". You may not understand this but your opinions and thoughts on this are perhaps the most valuable kind with respect to what I am trying to do.
"You dont seem to take into consideration that some of us dont want to run fortune 500 companies," And you very certainly don't understand that some of us (like me) actually do want to grow and run larger successful companies. There was a point about ten years ago where I had decided I had been fortunate enough to have the chance to build a lot of neat stuff in the way of projects but I felt that while not really easy, building projects was simple for me compared to the idea of building a company. I saw and still see building a company as the real challenge for me and, no I haven't figured it out just yet, but I do think the next two years will tell me a lot as to whether or not I've learned anything.
"A guy just getting started could do very well bidding trim packages by the square foot." Yeah and he could also lose his shirt like I did too. Your doing well but it failed for me and like a real dummy I didn't realize why at the time.
"and if he doesnt know his costs your methods will not work either." Very true and probably the most important fundamental issue and that agrees with what JR said regarding "Bottomline, be fair to yourself and factor in TRUE costs".
Part two of that however is understanding the relationships of those costs to each other
"I have nothing against computerizing the bid process any more than I do about any other technological advance in my trade. I choose not to do it that way because #1 I have no reason too, and #2 I would rather enjoy a few extra hours on a jobsite making something than a few extra hours on the computer punching in figures." Hey that's okay too. I recently had a local contractor call me up for help. He wanted to hire me to help him computerize his operation and set up a website for him. Other than teaching him the basics of QuickBooks and how to add up a column of numbers in Excel I talked him out of the computerization and website ideas and we spent the time cleaning and organizing his job files and systems. Yeah I am very pro computer but I'm smart enough to know that unless computerization acts on the constraint that is holding a company back from better and/or increased production it's a waste of time and money (that's part of the thinking that is core to the Theory of Constraints that I just mentioned to JR).
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Splinter I'm not sure where you are that you can say "Most guys around here charge by the square footage for basic trim in new construction." but you really CAN'T price interior trim projects based on the Square Foot footprint of the project. If a builder or any client asks you for you Square Foot price to finish a project a warning light and siren should go off in your head telling you that this client is shopping for price only and they are going to beat you up with that!!
Recently in another forum I responded to a framer who was looking for help pricing his first interior project I have also included this in other posts here as well as in Bobs Kovacs JLC Estimating & Take-off Forum too. With a few modifications every time I repost it here's my take on the subject:
It’s been my observation over the years that framers often quote prices for their projects based on the projects Square Footage which I've always considered a bad idea due to the lack of accuracy (see The Hidden Danger of Square Foot Estimating). As a framer I don't know if that’s what you've done in the past or not but if you try to estimate and bid and interior trim project that was you wont be doing it for long. You would either lose your shirt pretty quickly or the better and smarter GCs would recognize that you were out of your league and didn't know what you doing.
And like wise if the GC is looking for a SF price either they don't know what they are doing or they are looking for a finish contractor they can take advantage of because there is absolutely no correlation between the SF footprint of a house and the cost of architectural woodwork installation. Most trim work (although not all) is based on linear footage (i.e. baseboard crown etc.) or by the piece, assembly, or unit (such as doors).
Okay those warning and admonitions aside the key to estimating trims is producing an accurate project takeoff. Think about what you need to include in your estimate. Did this GC give you a scope of work document to tell you just what he was looking for you to do? Finish carpentry includes such items as:
doors and door frame
finish hardware installation
cabinets and shelving
milled trim
non-milled but exposed to view trim
wall paneling
stairs and stair railings
And you need to takeoff for fasteners, biscuits, dowels, glues, putty bondo etc. even if they aren't included on the plans and specifications you are looking at.
Is the GC expecting you to supply all those materials, some of them, or none of them? If you are supplying the materials (maybe not the best idea if this is your first "real" trim project) then you need to get prices for the items in your takeoff from the various suppliers. Be sure that the time it takes you to perform the take-off and the time it takes you to shop your materials list is included in your bid in one way or another (otherwise you are giving away your time for free).
You also need to keep in mind what the probable state of completion (fabrication) of the items upon their arrival at the jobsite. In other words are the doors pre-hung or will you be assembling jambs and installing the door in place? Are the cabinets finished and ready to install or are they knockdowns that needs assembly on site. Same thing regarding the stairs. Are they site built, a knockdown kit, or are they coming fully assembled and all you have to do is install them. And what about the railings? I think stairs are easy it the railings that are really difficult. Some items such as closet and bookshelves may come in parts or pieces all ready to be installed or you may have to cut and fabricate them from materials on site.
Having considered all the materials you now need to look at the labor involved. You need to both think of a labor cost related to each and every associated item on your takeoff and also:
Unloading of materials from trucks, handling and temporary storage and protection
Special tools equipment and scaffolding
Handling and hoisting materials from storage to final position. (generally applies to stairs but can apply to other things too such as safes or large cabinets)
Incidental associated items of work such as backing in partitions for the securing of cabinets and trim.
Who is going to prime or seal the trim before installation?
In a few other discussions here I've recommended:
Go out an purchase the Craftman Books - 2003 National Renovation & Insurance Repair Estimator and use the Man-Hour labor estimates in there as they apply for the kinds of work you’ll be performing times your Hourly Rate. (I recommend the NR&IRE book as opposed to some of the other ones out there for finish work in that that book has the widest range of finish items that I have seen.) Or you can check out the estimating program I just developed too. While eventually it will be for estimating all sorts of trades the data that is most thoroughly developed in it so far is finished carpentry, architectural woodwork etc sine that's what my company's core competency is.
I say use the man-hour calculations in those books rather than the labor costs that they have computed out because your Hourly Rate should be unique and I think most every ones Hourly Rate is. They may average around a certain number in a certain range for a certain kind of work but we all have different schedules of overhead calculations and there are regional differences too.
Getting back to the subject of estimating interior trim by a houses square foot footprint you can't possibly account for all that possible process variations and different kinds of materials and/or processes in a square foot estimate. Interior finish- you really should come up with a unit cost pricing system otherwise you are really just rolling dice.
Also if you are not using a unit cost pricing system when you perform After Action Job Costing how do you evaluate what your people are best at? How do you determine where you are losing money and making money?
Maybe (and I emphasize MAYBE) if you are doing nothing but exactly the same basic tract home over and over again you can use a form of SF estimating but it certainly doesn't work in the custom market and it's a dangerous way to start out pricing projects.
As for a real world mathematical example that show why SF pricing can be so inaccurate (plus or minus 15%!) check out what I wrote about The Hidden Dangers of Square Foot Estimating.
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did you mean sq/ft or lineal feet?
In Sacramento Ca. right now with a crazy good market , were charging $40 an hour on high end new construction. Small jobs for homeowners usually $50
Heyoka first of all if you are going into business for yourself what you charge is not called a Wage but is instead a Billing Rate. A Wage is just the component of the Billing rate that you actually pay to yourself or others. If you're really in BUSINESS for yourself you also have Labor Burden (Workers Comp, FICA, Unemployment, Health insurance, etc.) that you need to account for plus your cost of doing business Overhead too (phone service, licenses, liability insurance, etc.)
If I might make a suggestion. Go and download the demo of the estimating program I designed and then go to the section called Internal Trade Rates. Once their click on the Trade Profile for Carpenter A and you should get a page/window that looks like this.
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Click on that image for a larger view of it but what your looking at there on that worksheet is essentially a labor rate calculator. If you enter the numbers you want to use for things like your base wage, the hours per week and the weeks per year you want to work, truck payments, etc. in the green colored fields it will compute out your True Labor Cost per hour. You then multiply that True Labor cost per hour by whatever Markup you need to use to cover you overhead. The sample there shows a Markup of 1.70 which is probably a lot higher than what your will be since; I'm downstate in the higher "rent" neighborhood of Westchester County, we also have other costs that you as someone just starting out wont have, and we're older and more experienced than you are so we can charge more too. You'll probably need to select a Labor Markup of 1.34 to 1.5. If you e-mail me I'll send you my phone number and you can call me and I'll help you with figuring out just what your Overhead costs are and the correct Markup you should apply. (I'm sorry but I haven't developed the Markup Calculator part of the program yet and have just figured that more experienced contractors will know what to choose.
Here's the good news bad news part of all this. If after you plug in all your figures and you come up with something like the 41.87 for the True Labor Cost per hour and $71.20 for the Billing Rate and you find yourself saying something like "I can't charge that much I never get any work". Well that's the bad news then because if you can't sell that rate then you shouldn't go into business for yourself. Think about it, the math doesn't lie so something would have to give. Something like a wage or reimbursement for your truck expenses would have to be lower. And that money that you then wont be making will come out of your own pocket.
Remember there is an 85% failure rate amongst new contracting businesses in the first three years of their existence. It's either the highest failure rate or tied for the highest failure rate with new restaurants depending upon who's statistics you look at. You should make every effort to do it write or you may lose your shirt just like I did (twice).
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Can argue with the wage, FICA, health insurance, or business insurance costs. BUT,
Since you are the owner worker there is no "Production Supervisor" expense.
Becareful with the truck costs. Do you use the vehicle for personal use? If so all of the expenses are not relavent. There could be a problem using the truck payment as a measure of truck expense as well. If you will use the truck for eight years and pay it off in three, the calculations on the worksheet would over state the expense.
Tools? For the most part they are not annual or hourly expense. Consider the initial tools as an initial investment. Ok, factor something in and of course tool repair and replacement costs are relevant.
Overhead? Most one man shops work out of the house or garage. There are no out of pocket expenses involved, ie your overhead does not exist. Sure you scrafice the OPPORTUNITY to use that space personally, so it "costs" you something. Costs you inconvenience but not cash. If someday you build a shed for business, ok.
Bottomline, be fair to yourself and factor in TRUE costs but don't use a textbook and price yourself out of the business.
JR- "Can argue with the wage, FICA, health insurance, or business insurance costs. BUT,Since you are the owner worker there is no "Production Supervisor" expense." I think you probably meant "can't" rather than "can" to start off that sentence (like I never make spelling errors like that!) but you are very correct regarding: IF the Owner is the sole worker performing the work then Yes there would be no "Production Supervisor" expense .You'll notice though that those are green colored entry fields, which mean the user can modify them to fit their own situation.
That's good advice too regarding the truck expenses too. I haven't written the help page for that part of the program yet but I do plan to write all that kind of stuff into it. In fact I'll probably now e-mail you when I get that page done both to help me proof it and to get your take and opinions on it too. You wouldn't mind would you?
Anyway, agreed a tool budget (commonly referred to as a small tools allowance) may or may not be an expense that should be indexed according to the hourly rate. But ya know what in the case of my contractor friend that I just mentioned in my last post with his crews that number would be higher rather than lower. The break and or lose tools fairly regularly. I know that because we often find the lost ones and return them. Again it all depends. Hey but the purchase of a stationary sliding table table saws cost would and should not be recovered for that way. It's a capital expense and should be accounted for and recovered as part of Overhead in the Markup.
"Most one man shops work out of the house or garage. There are no out of pocket expenses involved, ie your overhead does not exist. Sure you scrafice the OPPORTUNITY to use that space personally, so it "costs" you something." Real excellent point too. And I'll try and work just that kind of language and thinking into the help page too. Thanks for bringing that up.
I especially like and agree with your last line, the "bottom line".... "Bottomline, be fair to yourself and factor in TRUE costs but don't use a textbook and price yourself out of the business."
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Jearrald,
Sorry about the spelling error(s). I type fast, make errors, and the fact that I can't spell on top of that can be a problem. LOL.
As for my comments, I through them out pretty fast. However, I was a cost accounting manager for many years and I can't tell you how many times people just burdened the heck out of every decision they made. Many times there were sunk costs not relevant to the decision at hand. Other times you just knew that overhead expenses in total would not be affected by the decision and therefore a burden rate was not relevant.
For example, I had managers that would run calculations to determine if a particular job should be outsourced. There answer was almost always yes. There burden rate included all kinds of expenses for the entire department which really involved other non manfacturing related department tasks. Using that rate would drive all the business erroneously out of house. A bit complicated to explain here.
Great talking to you.
JR- "Sorry about the spelling error(s). I type fast, make errors, and the fact that I can't spell on top of that can be a problem. LOL." Oh don't I know that one. Did you ever read here the story of how I spelled my own company name on my company website (Paradimg instead of Paradigm) and didn't spot it for days. An it was in a graphic too!
" I can't tell you how many times people just burdened the heck out of every decision they made." That is so very true. especially with something like that starts to get confusing and complicated like the relationships in Fixed and Variable Overhead. How many people here do you think will read just my mention of "Fixed and Variable Overhead" and go; "Whazhetalkingabout?" and how many people will spend too much time trying to make an inexact art perfect.
I happen to know that fellow who I mentioned above that started the topic regarding the numbers in his estimating database has been trying to develop some kind of system that based on PERT thinking and the PERT Weighted Average Formula and along with some thinking he's got going based on standard deviations he gets he's trying to make his SF estimates "more" accurate or better able to predict what really happens. As I said elsewhere: Fine tuning" SF estimating is kind of analogous to saying I could shoot more accurately if I had a laser sight on my flintlock musket. No you wont, it just ain’t gonna get any better. The flintlock is just inherently inaccurate as soon as the ball leaves the barrel and no sight is ever going to make up for that inaccuracy.
Hey I was once there thinking that kind of stuff too. I thought
Cloud Hidden had a great response there where he hit the nail on the head saying : You could build a multiple regression based on all of those factors and more. But the question is, while it would conceivably make you more precise, would it make you more accurate?
"There burden rate included all kinds of expenses for the entire department which really involved other non manfacturing related department tasks. Using that rate would drive all the business erroneously out of house. A bit complicated to explain here." Yeah it is complicated and I do think I understand where your going with that which all brings me to ask you...do you know anything about the Theory of Constraints, Critical Chain and Throughput Accounting. Also do you think that this blog post is sort of along the lines of what your getting at: Quietly Re-Thinking Out Loud Friday, June 06, 2003. Given your background as a onetime cost accounting manager there is probably tons of stuff I'd like to get you feedback on. Hey, my background was in painting scenery for the theatre and lighting design. I don't think I ever even balanced a check book on my own until I was in my late twenties. I've learned what I know now only in maybe the last ten years and I'm certainly still learning but working real hard at it.
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JR.
I too was a mfg cost accountant for many years, and my pricing was based on
how much business was in the house...If I had machine crews sitting around picking their nose, and a job came up that was price sensitive, anything over the hard costs was found money. If we were booked up, the price included what ever needed to be there. I just leaned on the salesman to try and get a good idea of what competition was up to, so as not to leave to much on the table...
Bud
What part of Upstate NY? Parts of upstate, are very much depressed and you can buy, three family homes in good condition for mere thousands( 20-30K - yes that is 20-30,000 for a three family home in great condition. Or 3-5,000 sq. ft homes for 150-200.)
Different markets bear different wages. I am a finish carpenter who is 29, and get this guys I've been running a profitable trim and millwork installation business employing carpenter's of the highest caliber for 9 years. Many who are twice my age. I work on homes that cost 300-600/sq ft to build for some of the most discriminating and wealthy in the world who demand the ABSOLUTE best.
There is nothing I can say to anyone getting into this business that hasn't already been said in this forum, other than whiule working for someone else, keep track of your time it takes to do different installations, keep track even more importantly how long it takes other carpenters do do a task. I don't mean a guy who throws things up haphazardly either. While doing all your research figuring what its going to cost YOU to be in business, you will have some preliminary hard data to use as an aid.
Never figure a trim job by the sq. ft. EVER! What if there is 7-10 pieces of trim built up as a detail. Figure by the lineal foot, cross check your figures with how long you estimate the job to take, then cross check with a national estimating guide (MEANS or something of that nature). The estimating guides are available on almost everyday of the week at any Borders or Barnes and Noble. Take all three figures and if they are all close then you "should" be safe. IF the numbers add up, get out and work your $##&&^! butt off.
Once you know your operating costs,and you know how long most things take. You will be writing letters like these, for the rest of the world to read. While trying to help some hard working guy succeed and not end up like some poor bastard with his pockets turned inside out. I wish I had this when I started.....you guys rock!
heyoka
I am currently trimming houses here in the Pocono mountains in Pennsylvania.
I get on average .80 a sq.ft which includes hanging doors, casing,base, stair railings, wire shelving in closets,and door knobs. my house average about 2200 sq ft. Since all the houses I do have sheetrock returns on the windows I dont case them out but just put sills in place with casing and returns on the bottoms.
Kitchens I charge 13.00 a lin ft for base and upper cabinets and 13.00 a ft for counter tops. I average about 2500.00 a housetakes about 7-8 days. All material is supplied even the glue for the countertops, heat is provided when needed. I even can bill them for my router bits, usually 1 per kitchen. It is by far the BEST job I ever had. My commute to NYC use to take me 2 hours one way, now all my houses are within 20 min from my house. I start when I want, and finish when I want, I work by myself so if I want to listen to my classical music while I work then thats what I do. If I want to slack off on the job then so be it. I can work any time of the day, nights and weekends if I want. It is the best job because I have no boss and make a fairly decent wage. And there is always a house waiting for me to start after the last one is finished. The co I work for is allways bugging me about getting a bill to them, and the checks are allways there, and ar allways good. And the greatest thing about being a sub is that I can still take on customers somewhere else so long as I give this company my main service.
please do not pinch me and wake me up, I truly lucked out for once.
good luck in your endeavors
Mark