Got another issue about the new roof: The valleys look different from both that on the former roof, as well as the neighbors. What am I looking at and what if anything should be done about it?
Thanks again!
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This is a woven valley. An expert opinion;
Woven valleys
A woven valley occurs when asphalt shingles from adjoining roof areas are interlaced to form a closed-cut valley. This valley type generally is limited to strip shingles on roof systems where valley slopes are at least 4-in-12 (18 degrees). This method creates a durable valley; however, it may hamper runoff in areas where heavy accumulations of debris or plant growth may collect in a valley.
In addition, NRCA does not recommend the use of woven valleys with laminated shingles because woven valleys can create a relatively thick buildup of material. The resultant valley surface also may be irregularly sloped, which could interfere with drainage.
Individual locking-type shingles cannot be used with woven valleys because nails are required for each tab, which would require placing nails at or near a valley center.
For more information about valley construction, refer to The NRCA Roofing and Waterproofing Manual, Fifth Edition; call NRCA at (847) 299-9070 or fax (847) 299-1183; or click here.
Joan P. Crowe is an NRCA manager of technical services.
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© Copyright 2008 National Roofing Contractors Association
How do figure this is a woven valley?
Bridge Dog is right, I'm wrong, it's a closed-cut valley. Page 9.
Edited 1/23/2008 1:27 am ET by cynwyd
Edited 1/23/2008 10:09 am ET by cynwyd
This is a woven valley. An expert opinion...
Thank you!
Except thaat it is not what we call a woven valley. I ti slapped and cut. plastic cement can be used but it is not necesary
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Dave
This is what I call a closed cut valley or 1/2 cut. One side runs up the roof and the shingles are uncut. The sheingle from second roof lay over top and they are cut in a staight line.
It is a common practice. Most new construction in our area is done that way.
In my jargon a woven valley is were both sides are done at the same time and woven like cloth or a deck a cards being shuffled.
If done properly I wouldn't worry about it.
I still prefer an open valley with the shingles terminating in a metal valley. About 2" of metal show on each side of the valley.
Rich
Hey Dave , its good you are trying to keep your contractors quality in line. What your guy did is a closed cut valley which is way the most shingle suppliers suggest. HE could have done a better job of cutting them straight. One thing that you should check is that the cut shingles are sealed with roofing cement and that he did not cut into the valley. If you have any concerns go to a manufacturer web site like Owens corning or gaf and they will show the proper way to single a valley.
One thing that you should check is that the cut shingles are sealed with roofing cement and that he did not cut into the valley.
Good tip. Will check.
I'll pipe in that i don't squish cement under the cut shingles bec i don't want water to be trapped behind it. Different strokes...
You need to take all the money you're saving on professional consulting fees for your house probs and buy yourself a new camera. Amazon's got the Canon A570IS for $135, shipped...an excellent bargain.
You may not use roofing cement, but that possibly could void the warranty. All manufactures say that you should put a dab of cement to seal shingles down to the valley. I am not saying that you should put a bead which might trap water, just a dab.
That would sure make our work easier wouldn't it?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
You should not have any water trapped behind the cement since you should not have any water under your shingles. LOL. But, seriously, if water gets through the shingles and runs down behind the cement to be trapped, then the problem is not the cement but the leak in the shingles. I think the main function of the cement is two fold, first to prevent water from backing up under the cut shingle edge in the event of ice damns, and to a lesser degree to prevent strong winds from lifting the cut edge which should not have a nail close to the edge.
The amount of cement that might be used for this application would not deter ice back up.
The other claim you make does have some merit- keeping the tabs down.
Well, when I did my roof I used a fair amount of cement. However, ice is powerful and might still push through it as you say.
The roof cement on a 1/2 cut valley is only needed on a laminated shingle.
After cutting the valley, you should cut or tear off the point of the underlying shingle. The dot of roof cement goes under the top edge of where the laminated layer leaves a small ridge.
Both of these techniques are to keep water that is running down the valley from catching on the top edge of the shingle and to a lessor degree, the top line of the laminated portion.
You don't need to fully paste the valley down, just enough to keep water from diverting and following the top edge of the laminated layer.
I can't tell you how many roofs that others have done that I have been called in to find the problem. Most of the time it is the lack of clipping off the top corner is all it takes.
Terry
Terry,
I don't do a lot of shingling anymore- basically just slate. I prefer open valleys with exposed metal showing- and no not W valleys.
I don't care for the look of either woven or closed cut with archies, and suspect it will not last as long as an open one either.
Walter
So it's probably a safe bet that you don't weave any valleys? :)
Sorry but I cringed when the picture came up. One I don't see that solution as attractive, two unless the roof has a good pitch it will accumulate a lot of debris and stuff (personal experiences) and three it will shorten the life of the shingles that form the valley(this is a relative time frame).
I'd like to see some of your final installations. A well installed real slate roof is a sight to behold!
got copper nails? ;)
ciao, ted
No even if I were using asphalt shingles I don't weave or close cut for the exact reasons you point out- loss of useful life of shingles, debris retention, and the ugly factor.
Most roofers don't want to bother with installing a sound metal valley that will last thru three roofs.
Here's an album if you're interestted in slate installs.
Walter
http://share.shutterfly.com/action/welcome?sid=8cbsmrhq0gA¬ag=1
The only time I get to work with slate is repairs or removal.
Would love to do more of it, just not much of a market for it around here.
Curious though, why don't you like "W" valley metal? I don't enjoy bending it, but I always felt that it is the best way - especially on a steeper pitch.
Terry
There is rarely a need for it- just architects specs which many follow blindly.
Looks like ####, hard to make the end terminations look good, simply no need for them unless there is an unequal pitch situation- then maybe a need.
On a steeper pitch gravity is forcing the water downhill faster so less needed on those.
Walter
Curious, why don't you like the W flashing?
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=99877.21
Slateman answered that a couple of posts ago, but I'll weigh in with my objections to it:
They collect debris more than a "V" valley, especially on lower slopes.
The bottom takes much more time and skill to detail properly.
The top where two valleys meet takes much more time and skill to detail.
The joints between two pieces are usually more visible since there are four planes to align vs. two planes with "V".
They require a wider piece of metal, which drives the price of a copper valley up significantly. I can get two pieces of "V" valley from one 36" wide sheet, but only one "W" with a strip too narrow for another piece of valley left over. So, I have a bunch of 16" strips I have to find a use for. Plus when I'm fabing, the "W' requires two extra bends as well as two awkward flips.
http://grantlogan.net/
"Because I really want to live in a country where the poor people are fat. "- Unidentified Indian Immigrant when asked why he wants to come to America
Maybe Hazlet will chime in how we're mistaken !
Maybe Hazlet will chime in how we're mistaken !
Nah, we've got free reign. He's on vacation.http://grantlogan.net/
"Because I really want to live in a country where the poor people are fat. "- Unidentified Indian Immigrant when asked why he wants to come to America
seeyou, Thanks for the reply.
I see you fabricate your own valley flashing. If you are a DIYer or a once and awhile roofer, where would you source your metal prefabed?
where would you source your metal prefabed?
If it's drip edge or valley or something else standard, your roofing supply store ought to have it. I'm not talking about Lowe's or HD, but a true roofer's supply.
2nd source would be someone like me. I bend metal for my own crews, for some of my competitors that don't have quite as sophiticated equipment or knowhow, for some of the local supply houses, for walk-in customers like you, and I sometimes ship stuff. There should be somebody local to you that can bend what you need. Call some roofers or check the YP listings for sheet metal fabrication.http://grantlogan.net/
"Because I really want to live in a country where the poor people are fat. "- Unidentified Indian Immigrant when asked why he wants to come to America
Thanks. If you fab your own valleys, you likely can brake it out of a roll and therefore make it one piece top to bottom. Can you get that from the roofing suppy houses as well?
you likely can brake it out of a roll and therefore make it one piece top to bottom.
My brake is 10' long and I avoid rolled metal whenever possible. A valley or any other formed metal piece much over 10' will tear itself from expansion/contraction if not allowed to slide. http://grantlogan.net/
"Because I really want to live in a country where the poor people are fat. "- Unidentified Indian Immigrant when asked why he wants to come to America
Punch List Items
Fix loose paper on wall in Great Room ("blister")
Build out/smooth out wall and floor molding in Great Room
Replace flooring, and put under baseboard instead of using quarter-round
Repair bulge problem with hardwood floor
Pan (flashing) missing under *all* exterior door threshholds
No house-Tyvek -- Vicor wrap
No flashing wrap for door jam -- should be galvanized flashing
Door sill mounted to trim, not to house framing.
Start strip under sliding door
Hand-rail not level.
Above sliding door it is not flashed.
Trim should be on all family room windows, not just Bay Window.
Windows are out of square (where? In Great Room only?)
Garage door -- threshhold too high, needs galvanized flashing.
Jams need extension in towards siding.
Sliding door not plumb, not square
Corner of garage -- put hands through.
Cut holes in garage walls.
Wall dings in Great Room.
Flatten wall better in Great Room
Fix outlet better in Great Room
Return vent not fixed
Great Room corner floor by stepdown trim (something missing, damaaged)
Clean return on support beam
Primer/different color/finish on support beam
Fill all holes in general
Make reveal uniform in dad's bathroom door.
Redo linoleum floor, put UNDER molding, and rotate very slightly to de-emphasize un-square wall.
Calk in seam around doorframe leading to Dad's room
Paint is missing in numerous spots on walls, or mismatching paint, in Dad's room, Great Room, and upstairs.
Replace damaged molding around opening to Dad's room.
Re-hang garage door from Great Room -- no plumb or square
Door trim and door for guest BR must be cleaned up.
Drip edge by dish pulled off -- two pieces
Box - for front door o/s electric outlet - like garage lights
Garage door left soffet dent, finish cracks.
Paint ends of window ledges in Master Bath & Guest BR
Drywall around tub should be hardibacker or durarock.
Fix gouges in door frame outside toilet room, guest BR frame, Dad's suite frame, original linen closet frame
New Linen closet door doesn't latch shut on right
Doors to Master Bath/Bedroom barely latch: Frame isn't shimmed.
Don't not use quarter round in bathroom
Bifold doors in Master Bedroom and Main entrance closet are hung wrong: No quarter round, move top trim down, move track out.
Fix finish above switch in upper landing.
Bigger vents at top (and bood) to reduce noise in Master Bed and Bath.
Exhaust vent for vanity bath is illegal; must go to outside. Currently an open hole into attic.
Pan with water sensor (alarm w/auto shutoff) for washing machine.
Gutter back edge by house, by fence on Steve's side -- not under corner - water in soffet -- stop -- sticking out.
Connect ring around porch for water middle post short - space at top.
Post #2 & post #3 of porch: no water outlet
Over Master room drip edge missing by left gutter edge.
Bay window - split to make curve on sliding
Bay window shingles
Back-corner by Truban -- Vertical piece by corner
Kitchen bay window vertical piece over dark -- water catch
Stove bent cracked.
Roof corner is a California Valley (what's under it? Felt? Galvanized flashing? Ice & water shield?
Too steep a grade at b…
Inadequate water proofing on basement wall, shown marked areas
Scrape, clean, paint (with rust-proofing) steel I-beam
Gap between basement door frame and CMU wall.
Need a 36" door in exterior basement doorway (or use 2'10", but not 2' 8")
Need electric hookup and plumbing for sump pump.
Need to be able to remove lid for sump pump well
Insulation above CMU walls in basement.
Spackle over all screw holes in door frame
Repair walls in vanity bathroom on first floor
Repair ceiling of Dave's basement -- spackle knocked out, exposing screws.
J-mold must be stepped at front entrance, and all must be square, above and below.
Get rid of j-mold at bottom next to front door -- creates water problems.
Use OSI100 color match caulk between j-mold and aluminum casing around garage door frame.
Every corner and return must be flush and they are not.
Vinyl nailed too tight
Fix flashing next to soffet in front of garage doors.
Fix trim under corner of gutters in back
Buckle by vent - for Dad's bathroom.
rain gutter by bay window not straight.
Tyvek showing back corner by Trubans side.
Roof not flashed
Vinyl trim at corners stick out and allow water to get behind.
Install closet racks in Master Closets and Foyer Closet
Fix Joan's window sill -- close gap, repair cracks and cover exposed nail.
Threshhold for exterior basement door cracks when you step on it -- need proper support.
Glass needed for corner shower (do we need to pick it out?)
Shower rod needed for Dad's shower
Paint underside of all new doors, and door edge where hinges are for master bedroom door and master bedroom closet (ANYWHERE ELSE?)
Outdoor spigot needed in back of house -- one that is freeze-proof.
Lid for new sump pump well needs to be freed up so we can install sump pump.
Put ridge cap shingles on bay window
Install flashing for bay window and all other windows
Remove paint and spackle globs from guest bedroom door and frame.
Finish painting new window sill in guest bedroom
Grout in master bath needs to be repaired in linen closet
Redo master bath tiles along edges so that they go under the baseboard molding.
Mark should label all circuit breakers
Wash dirt off of basement wall
Patch hole next to light switch in Dad's hallway.
Fix loose floor section in Dad's hallway.
Unsanded spackle above outlet in upper landing should be sanded and painted.
Basement exterior door not flashed in any way -- flash it.
White switches and outlets in upper landing should be changed to match ivory covers.
Replace 2-piece vertical corner piece under porch with a single piece of the proper length.
Fix vinyl around porch: two-piece vertical section should be one piece; re-do horizantal channel along bottom of port ceiling corner. Add a 2x6 beam clad in aluminum to handle the whole issue.
Overlap of aluminum casing at back corner of garage is set up so that flap points up, causing water to go behind flap and next to wood.
Siding in back must be at least 8" above the ground.
Clean up all debris around house
Regrade ground around addition, especially in vicinity of heat pumps
Put in all screens
Fix dents in new ballister top wood piece
Spackle, sand, paint cut section behind door in Dad's bathroom
Fix gouges in door frame of new laundry room
Raise porch rails so that the vertical pieces can expand -- the rails are nearly resting on the vertical pieces, which will expand in summer.
New exterior outlets have covers that open to the side. They should lift instead.
Smooth out the returns around the entrance into the master bedroom -- chip on top and excess spackle on the side.
Smooth spackle around master bedroom light switch
Handrails needed on both sides of exterior basement stair.
Paint inside of intage vents black
Vent cover for Linda's closet
Sound down delge on lef wall in Linda's closet
Fix dents in back of Linda's closet
Fix hole in Dave's closet
Finish painting Dave's closet -- rollered but not edged.
Fix cracks above Dave's closet, both inside and out -- use mesh?
Paint inside of Dave's closet doors
Molding in Dave's closet -- not nailed properly
Replace top molding in Dave's closet interior
Carpet not put down in Dave's closet -- needs to be stretched and tucked
Smooth rough finish on door to Linda's closet
Replace cheap aluminum vent duct from dryer with rigid flex duct
Replace wall for guest bedroom door with a single sheet of drywall -- It's cracking
Heat pump out of level and out of balance. Vibrating -- will ruin bearings or something
Put a beam along underside of porch roof that runs parallel to back of house to solve water problems.
Fix holes in CMU in staircase that were made by frame for cement stair molding.
Fix holes in roof cause by siders hammering in 2x4 to hold ladder laid on roof in place.
Install sump pump in basement addition.
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Latest update on the roof:
On Friday, I called the county inspector for our project and confirmed some things that are probably obvious to the pro's:
Code requires flashing for the interface between the garage roof and the side of the house.
Code requires flashing in the valleys.
The inspector confirmed that the roof will not pass inspection unless this flashing is installed.
Also on Friday, we got word that all of the bathroom fixtures we ordered have come in and the contractor will start installing them on Monday. This means that we are in the final phase of the project before getting to the punch list.
As soon as the bathroom fixtures are installed I plan to point out the lack of flashing and get him working on it. We've known that this would have to be done ever since this thread started, but it's nice to know that the contractor can't argue against it.
There are many other issues with the exterior, but there are so many that I'm going to informally feed them to him bit by bit. The siding and the roof over the bay window are completely separate items and we plan to deal with that after the main roofs are flashed.
Thank you for all the good advice, and if we need a course correction, please let me know!
just saw this thread.
many ways to detail a valley----do what works for you.
Pretty much i am only interested in doing what i know has worked flawlessly for me in my little area for 20 years.
typically- i will use an open W valley--or a closed cut valley. If piffen, grant or walter want to do something else--- that's fine with me---- they are working in THEIR areas and I am working in mine, LOL.
Regaurding the "stilleto valley"----- i first tried that one-- I don't know---maybe 6 years ago---something like that.--- Saw it in an article by Mike Guertin-- I am not certain how long ago it was
at any rate-- as luck would have it--the house i tried it on had a long valley where a 4/12 porch met a much steeper pitched garage( maybe 9/12)--- the experience was not satisfactory.--the valley worked ok----but the offset was not what i like---pitch of the steeper roof intersecting with the lower pitch roof working out to like a 2 or 3 inch offset-----not satisfactory--and required a lot of additionally cutting to maintain a proper offset.
S000000, as luck would have it--and by pure coincidence--- the FIRST roof i used it on highlighted one of it's real drawbacks---and so i don't think i have used it since.someone mentioned that this method doesn't work well on steeper roofs-the steeper it is the less of the offset. since most of my roofs are not walkable--it doesn't seem that this would really be a method that would be a good fit for me anyway.
grant mentioned getting 2 pieces of V valley out of one 36" piece of copper--and not using a W valley. i would like to thank him for that idea--- i haven't previously considered that---- I want to chew that possibility over for a while,
best wishes,
Stephen
You need to take all the money you're saving on professional consulting fees for your house probs and buy yourself a new camera.
The camera's fine -- a top-rated digital Kodak. The problem is with the user. Have an inherited condition that causes tremors. Makes pictures hit-or-miss sometimes.
As for saving money on professional consulting fees, I'm hoping that these discussions server a broader audience than just myself. The same kind of stuff goes on all over the country.
That explains why some photos are blurred and some are fine! hope you haven't taken my criticisms of the phoitos personally.There are some cameras now with anti-wiggle technology. I don't know how well they work though.
Maybe a tripod?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
There are some cameras now with anti-wiggle technology. I don't know how well they work though.
The camera has both an eye-piece and a screen. I started by using the screen, but am now getting better results by using the eyepiece because I can steady it with my face.
I guess you can tell that my wife is the photographer of the family ;^)
I don't think it's camera shake. Looks to me like you are zooming in or cropping the original picture when you post it, so that only a small area shows. So we're seeing the pixels (the old fashioned film grain). Show more of the original picture. It's helpful to see the surrounding area."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
I don't think it's camera shake. Looks to me like you are zooming in or cropping the original picture when you post it, so that only a small area shows.
OK, I'll admit it. Sometimes it's just a bad shot ;^)
The two original photos were taken as close ups, but these two shots will give you a better view of the over-all project, front and back. You can see the valleys.
two concerns I see from those photos.#1 > The ladder laying on the roof over gaarage in the sfirst one.
That is not holding itself up on theroof.I don't see any sign of straps holding that 2x4 there under it. Maybe they are and I just don't see them. Normally there is a slice of strap metal running up under the shingles and nailed in there. That way the toeboard holding that ladder up can be removed with no damage to the shingled roof when they are done. I am betting my lunch tomorrow ( lasagne) that what they did was to nail or screw the toeboard to the face of the roof. That means that if you take a peak up there in the ......fifth course up I think, you might find where some 1/8" holes in the shingles exist that need repair.#2 > I think in the second photo, that where you show the cable conduit entering the roof (in this thread? ) is where the leaves are piled in behind the addition. If I am right, that is the worst place in the whole roof they could have chosen to put that hole in the shingles.
The snow and ice will accumulate there the same way the leaves are drifted in.
And a valley from the upper roof dumps all its drainage right there onto that spot, making heavy flows and ice build up more likelyBut nice design and layout on the architectural work.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
two concerns I see from those photos.
#1 > The ladder laying on the roof over gaarage in the sfirst one.That is not holding itself up on theroof.
Yup. We got holes. Added it to the punch list.
#2 > I think in the second photo, that where you show the cable conduit entering the roof (in this thread? ) is where the leaves are piled in behind the addition.
The solar guys are coming out on Wednesday. Plan to have them take the conduit behind the walls.
Edited 1/27/2008 5:04 pm ET by DelawareDave61
I still don't see where you are coming from. You are all over the posting this morning. Why don't you give us some background and put all of you pics in one posting, unless of course they are of different houses.
http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&msg=99877.2http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&msg=99875.2http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&msg=99881.4http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&msg=99831.21http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&msg=99810.35http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&msg=99240.1http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&msg=99439.1http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&msg=98987.73
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
DAH?
new list of good links - I thinkhttp://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=99875.1http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=99881.1http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=99831.1http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=99810.1http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=99240.1http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=99439.1http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=98987.1
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I still don't see where you are coming from. You are all over the posting this morning
Makes sense to me! LOL
I see this as a roofing thread. I may not know anything about roofing and thus dismiss this whole thread and in turn would miss all that I could contribute too or learn from due to all the other "threads" intertwined in this one thread.
Also keeps the whitenoise or clutter from so many people posting on different subjects to this one arena.
Just my two cents........
“Some people wonder all their lives if they've made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem.” Reagan....
Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor. -Truman Capote
We do closed valleys here, we used to do them like your picture now we do them a little different.
Open valleys haven't been used here on a common basis since before I can remember.
The closed valley works, we have no issues with them.
View Image
View Image
View Image
These are some pictures of how I do closed valleys. Dead straight valley line and no knife in the valley. No cutting, no scrap.
the more I thought about your situation as a HO in a bind, we can try to describe what things should look like until we are blue in the face and you still won't get it totally. I figured I'd show some pictures of what works for me in Michigan. Might work for you as well.
Woods favorite carpenter
who u shiddin ?....
that's a stilletto valley
looks like you keep the line about 2" up '''......
my roofer likes to keep it 2" at the top tapering to 3" + at the bottom
but i like it about 1" up and parallel to the valley
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 1/23/2008 8:42 pm ET by MikeSmith
Thats my old screeen name.
You still using that valley too? Woods favorite carpenter
really ?.....
mattswanger = stilletto ?....
well, as i live and breathe
yeah... my roofer is 3d generation.. and he adopted the stilletto valley too
don't break your arm patting yourself on the back ..........
but ... just between me & you and the horse... attaboy !
so... how much roofing cement are u using to hold the tabs down ? ..... heh, heh, heh
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 1/23/2008 8:46 pm ET by MikeSmith
so what is more catchy and easy to remember?Stiletto?
or
Swanger?Hard call isn't it
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Had to change my emaill address. Had some problems.
That meant I had to change my screen name. Used my real name this time. Woods favorite carpenter
Meanwhile back at Dave's place...I don't care for lapped cut like his or woven valley's but they are a typical way of doing them so nothing really wrong there to pick apart.I just got used to calling your style a Stiletto valley. Do we need to learn to call it a Swanger valley now? LOL
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
The finished product is about the only thing that I don't like. Performance probably nothing different.
Looks like someone cut the shingles with a wooden spoon. Woods favorite carpenter
The way you install your valley is the best and fastest. But best doesn't always mean right, at least in the manufactures eyes. What happens if there is a manufacturer defect of some sort. That installation method has not been adopted by shingle producers yet. If their is a warranty issue the manufacture will look for any reason to void it, no matter how small.
If their is a warranty issue the manufacture will look for any reason to void it, no matter how small.
Yeah, some reps work like that, but most don't. My last few warranty problems have been resolved lightning fast with no finger pointing and the manufacturers going above and beyond the warranty coverage. "What's it gonna take to keep your customer and you happy?" is a question I'm hearing often.
Hopefully, they (the manufacturers) have realized that their warranty can be a very effective sales tool rather than a weaseling point.http://grantlogan.net/
"Because I really want to live in a country where the poor people are fat. "- Unidentified Indian Immigrant when asked why he wants to come to America
"they (the manufacturers) have realized that their warranty can be a very effective sales tool rather than a weaseling point"It only took me a quarter century to teach them that!;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Never said it was right or wrong.
I'm just trying to give this guy some examples to let him know that what he has isn't all bad. The finished look isn't all that great, but it will work.
Woods favorite carpenter
In 25 years or so of roofing, I've never bought any roofing cement nor used it for anything.http://grantlogan.net/
"Because I really want to live in a country where the poor people are fat. "- Unidentified Indian Immigrant when asked why he wants to come to America
I was not trying to be critical of your methods. I just wanted to make a point for the DIY crowd and the rookies. It is a lot easier to say than to write. When you read what I wrote it seems kind of blunt and rude. Needless to say I am not a writer just a dumb carpenter ; )
I just wanted to make a point for the DIY crowd and the rookies.
After you posted about the instructions saying to cut the valleys the "old way", I checked the install manuals and you sir are correct. So, I called one of my shingle reps and asked him what he thought. His reply was that the instructions showed one way to cut a valley. There may be other acceptable methods and he didn't see any problem with the 'Stilleto valley' as long as the nail distance, underlap, and butt stagger requirements are met. Sort of like the minimum of 4 nails per shingle rule. Think they'd void the warranty if we used 6 nails per shingle?http://grantlogan.net/
"Because I really want to live in a country where the poor people are fat. "- Unidentified Indian Immigrant when asked why he wants to come to America
Think they would void the warranty if we used 6 nails per shingle?
I think your rep was talking about the distance from the valley rather than the quantity. I might be wrong (and im sure I will be corrected if I am) but I am pretty sure that you are supposed to stay 6" away from the valley with the nails.(been a while since I've been on a roof bad knees and all) That's where the cement comes in. Roofing cement is used as a fastener rather than a sealer. Belive it or not I am not a big fan of tar either, but it does have its uses.
Edited 1/25/2008 11:05 am ET by Bridge_Dog
I am pretty sure that you are supposed to stay 6" away from the valley with the nails.
That's correct - 6" from the valley CENTER.
My point about the 6 vs 4 nails was that there may be better ways than those given in the instructions. The instructions give the minimum. There can be better methods than shown in the instructions.
As far as the "Stilleto valley", nailing in the nail strip of the "valley shingle" gives the proper distance for nails from the valley center. The regular course shingles don't have an un-nailed "tail" extending into the valley that needs to be cemented. Most dimensionals (though not all) have the sealing strip on the bottom edge which also negates the need for cement.
http://grantlogan.net/
"Because I really want to live in a country where the poor people are fat. "- Unidentified Indian Immigrant when asked why he wants to come to America
Edited 1/25/2008 11:26 am ET by seeyou
Their is always a better way, sometimes manufacturers and building codes are behind the times. Like I posted earlier its about warranties and possibly avoiding litigation. I think think the point should be ALWAYS check the manufacturer, sales rep or building official for installation methods especially if you have a better method in mind. This goes for roofing, siding, windows etc..... TO all ,sorry if I am getting of the original talking points of this thread.
No apology needed, I can see your point.
Woods favorite carpenter
I shingle like Matt does... on certain brands of shingles ,it is the recommended way of
doing it. I did not know any thing about that procedure, until I read it on that
particular brand, whose name escapes me now. I'm not real fond of lump in the roof,
but never a leak problem
kellyw
I glad to see the manufactures are finally coming to their senses. I have used all the methods on this post and the "stiletto" valley or long island valley or whatever people call it is by far the best installation. When I posted to Matt I did not mean that it was the wrong way. I was just trying to convey their might be warranty concerns. According to others on this post it is not of much concern. I have only dealt with warranty on two occasions for other peoples poor installation, and the reps were not very helpful.(same company different rep) Of course I will not use that companies product anymore.
Guertin calls it the Long Island valley...
You gonna take that lying down? <G>
I saw another detail online at GAF's site that was a hybrid between woven and closed-cut. I couldn't get the graphic to copy, but it's in Section 11 of the following link.
The cut shingle was only cut to just above the tar strip, then the rest of the shingle was lapped into the valley and up the other side and nailed high. That was covered by the opposing shingle.
This means one side can't be completely nailed off before the opposing side is shingled, which may or may not be a drawback. It ended up looking like any closed cut valley with the advantage of having one more layer of shingle under the un-cut side, but not the lumpiness of a woven valley.
I've never seen it done, though.
Anybody?
http://www.gafcoolroofcentral.com/Content/Documents/20336.pdf
We don't use the tar.
Everything seals itself down pretty well without it.
He uses the top of the shingle on the chalk line, thats why he needs the tar.
Woods favorite carpenter
My eye picks up the perpendicular-to-the-valley lines on the archy shingles with your method. Have you been doing it long enough your way to be sure the resistance to allowing stuff to slide down the valley doesn't matter?In Guertin's way, the double-layer of the archy shingle bottom would form a bit of a hump just up from the valley. I've wondered if that would make a visible difference in the wear of the overlying shingles ten years down the road.Seems like a strip of roll roofing (or starter strip) would be best of all - including offering the boon of no seams between shingles - if you could find a color in the range needed....Just musing here...i only play a roofer on TV.
I have been using for a long time, maybe 7 years ago or so I started doing it.
Never had any leaks with it. I live in snow country and had no issues. My house is done with them, the big roof job I did last winter was 1,400 sq of shingles, every valley we used them and again no issues.
Like Grant I haven't bought tar in my career. Tar is not a substitute for flashing. We used a tar bucket once on my bosses job, I rolled it in the end of a tear off tarp and dragged the tarp into the dumpster with the work van.
This method puts a small line in the overlaying shinges. But I accept that as a small price to pay for a dead straight valley with no cuts.
Woods favorite carpenter
It IS a beautiful line. I cut with a straight-edge and a hook blade - takes me forfreakingever, but they're really purty <g> - but i'll try your way next time.
My eye picks up the perpendicular-to-the-valley lines on the archy shingles with your method.
Most of the pictures that you're seeing of the Stilletto valley are taken from above up on the roof. It's hard to pick out the valley parallel shingle from the ground and as the slope increases, the triangle size decreases.
Have you been doing it long enough your way to be sure the resistance to allowing stuff to slide down the valley doesn't matter?
I have. No problems. Never had a call back on this type of valley. http://grantlogan.net/
"Because I really want to live in a country where the poor people are fat. "- Unidentified Indian Immigrant when asked why he wants to come to America
<<Never had a call back on this type of valley.>>Good enough for me!
I've not seen a cut valley done like that. Looks like a really good method...
Question - I see you are using dimensional shingles. Do you use a different shingle on the ridges?
This is the best method for valleys I have used. Very fast. No scrap. Big savings on materials.
I use matching accessory hip and ridge for cap.
Guertin uses the top of the shingle for his valley, not all maunfacturers shingles are the same color top and bottom. THats why I use the bottom. And no tar. Woods favorite carpenter
I'm no roofer by any means... Done my share way back when...
Let me ask you this though... What about using the ridge shingles for that up the roof course on your "stiletto" valley?
The ridge shingles a much more expensive than a regular shingle. Maybe $10-$15 a bundle.
It might work with some manufacturers cap, OC has built up tabs that wouldn't work. Others have the perforated edges so you can bend and snap them, not sure how well that would hold up.
The valley shingles lines diappear after you are not standing on top of them. My pictures were to show the technique. About 5' away you can't see them.
Steeper pitched roofs make this valley not work. Woods favorite carpenter
>> Steeper pitched roofs make this valley not work. <<
How come?
The valley looks fine, but I thought maybe it would lay flatter if that special course was a 3 tab style shingle - maybe be a little more weatherproof?
gotta - go - I'm late but really have not much to do today - sometimes salarie is a really good thing!
How come?http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=99810.65http://grantlogan.net/
"Because I really want to live in a country where the poor people are fat. "- Unidentified Indian Immigrant when asked why he wants to come to America
We do closed valleys here, we used to do them like your picture now we do them a little different.
Open valleys haven't been used here on a common basis since before I can remember.
Thank you for the pictures. If I'm reading your post correctly, you're saying that I have a closed valley.
My big question is: do you use flashing when you make these valleys? As far as I can tell, there is no flashing in ones for the new roof. Could be wrong, but nothing is visible.
do you use flashing when you make these valleys? As far as I can tell, there is no flashing in ones for the new roof. Could be wrong, but nothing is visible.
I typically use I&WS laid first. I believe Matt does the same. Thin sheet metal (terne or alum) is also used, but if it's put down in longer than 10' lengths, it can tear itself from expansion and contraction. http://grantlogan.net/
"Because I really want to live in a country where the poor people are fat. "- Unidentified Indian Immigrant when asked why he wants to come to America
what Matt showed was only one of half a dozen different ways to do a valley, none right and wrong. Some ways have advantages over others in certain applications. What you have is what I call alapped cut valley and is fine as long as ( two things that I can't tell from the photos ) >>That when they cut the angle ends on the top side shingles, they did not accidentally cut through the shingles in the lower side where they lay across the valley bend>> That they used a metal baking or an ice and water shield lining behind the shinglesOK - more than three things>>>That they used underlayment>>>That they did not drive any nails into the shingle withing 6-8" of the valley center where water runs.>>> That they did not force the shingles in the cold weather and fracture them. That could be one to look closely for if somebody there can do that without damaging them in the cold.
These thick laminated shingles can be cracked there in the cold because of the two plies laminated together, one is being crumpled into compression while the other is being stretched in tension. Can do this fine in warm weather, but I think I see signs that this job was done in the cold. The way the ridge on the bay was ugly and coming apart in a spot or too is one example of what can happen when you force a cold laminated shingle.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Yes you have a closed cut valley.
I use I&W shield on all the valleys. If the situation is right I use 24" wide aluminum coil stock in the valley as well.
The certain cases I still use aluminum,
1. Lots of overhanging trees, where branches can fall onto the valley. Cheap insurance for a puncture hole. Small branches it works well, logs nothing is going to help.
2. If there is something ont he roof that needs to be serviced down the road. Solar panels, TV antenna's, satelite dishes. If any of these are above a valley then I use metal, most people walk up a valley not knowing any better. It's easier but also hazardous to your roof.
Woods favorite carpenter
"most people walk up a valley not knowing any better. It's easier but also hazardous to your roof."
Homeowners, chimney sweeps, handymen cleaning gutters, satellite dish installers, all walk the valley until they are safely at the top and can walk on the ridge cap. Vents and stacks serve as useful handholds.
The certain cases I still use aluminum,
1. Lots of overhanging trees, where branches can fall onto the valley. Cheap insurance for a puncture hole. Small branches it works well, logs nothing is going to help.
2. If there is something ont he roof that needs to be serviced down the road. Solar panels, TV antenna's, satelite dishes. If any of these are above a valley then I use metal
Check on both counts.
I've never done a closed valley, but I'm wondering if you can see any reason not to detail the edges of an open valley the same way? To distinguish this from the Closed Stiletto, lets refer to it as the Open Swanger.
can see any reason not to detail the edges of an open valley the same way?
That's actually how I saw it first used and have done open valleys that way many times.http://grantlogan.net/
"Because I really want to live in a country where the poor people are fat. "- Unidentified Indian Immigrant when asked why he wants to come to America
Not done too many open valleys I'll leave the answer to you.
If the metal is wide enough I couldn't see why it wouldn't work.
Woods favorite carpenter
It works just like a closed valley except you do it on both sides.http://grantlogan.net/
"Because I really want to live in a country where the poor people are fat. "- Unidentified Indian Immigrant when asked why he wants to come to America
I figured it would, but having no experience with it I'll yield to you on it.
I don't want to give out valley advice on a world wide website that I have no experience with.
Woods favorite carpenter
Matt,
I think there are plenty of folks on these forums who should follow that sound advice- but I doubt it will happen
Walter
I doubt it too.
I have no issues giving advice on what I know works for me in my region.
Once in a while I was misinformed and Piffin corrects me, I think he likes it. ;)
Woods favorite carpenter
He used to like it--- now he loves it, and not just you either !!!
One other problem with this method is that the stagger of the shingles is only . . . what four inches ( a seam is only four inches to the side of teh seam below). According to the mfg this is a no no. What is typical per the wrapping on a buncdle? 8 or 10 inches?
Now the reality is likely that 4 inches will work, but .....
The stagger depends on the roofs pitch, the steeper the roof the shorter the stagger, the shallower the pitch the more the stagger.
I think 6/12 is the steepest we use it on, might be 8/12. Without having to cut the shingles.
If we have to cut them, they are run the same way and nailed in place then I cut them before I lay the next. Much easier to cut a nailed shingle than a loose one. Especially when they are cold or frozen.
Woods favorite carpenter
this is the valley i use, We call it a cut valley, I see it looks rough as far as the cuts, Since i went to the 50 year material mine look rough even though i use a new hook blade, They are THICK, Tried shears too, As Someone mentioned its very important to "dub" the points off the shingles, They WILL catch water coming down and send it off where you dont want it to go, I keep nails even further away then recommended and use NO tar in a valley, Have never had wind blow off near a valley, The devil is in the details, Cut those points off.