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Ron,
I don’t have the answers for you. A couple theories: I’m
sure you must be delighted to see all the DIYers, and other
less experienced Breaktimers all lining up to buy truss
systems for the garages, sheds, houses, cabins, etc. that I
see all the time here on BT.
Well, they go up fast, no question, but as you pointed out,
there’s more to it than just slapping roofs up as fast as
you can set trusses. And crews are following the leader
these days. Does that person know how to safely carry out
the installation? Did he/she think it through or just
assume that all truss systems can be handled the same way,
even though they lucked out last time with various
circumstances like weather, careless workers, bad luck with
cranes, whatever?
On the commercial stuff, I can only guess that it takes a
competent design, good workmanship on your part, and someone
running the show at the job who knows how to get the job
done right. Communication should be through the chain. The
company must know it’s their heads on the line when
something goes wrong here, I can’t believe they wouldn’t
care enough to find out your specifics on bracing and other
load characteristics.
Unfortunately, it’s the regular guy (who isn’t trained or
expected to know all this stuff) that gets hurt or killed
when the foremen/management blow you off.
With today’s liablility, they will drop like flies. Hope
you don’t get caught up in their negligence.
MD
xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Replies
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Ron,
I don't have the answers for you. A couple theories: I'm
sure you must be delighted to see all the DIYers, and other
less experienced Breaktimers all lining up to buy truss
systems for the garages, sheds, houses, cabins, etc. that I
see all the time here on BT.
Well, they go up fast, no question, but as you pointed out,
there's more to it than just slapping roofs up as fast as
you can set trusses. And crews are following the leader
these days. Does that person know how to safely carry out
the installation? Did he/she think it through or just
assume that all truss systems can be handled the same way,
even though they lucked out last time with various
circumstances like weather, careless workers, bad luck with
cranes, whatever?
On the commercial stuff, I can only guess that it takes a
competent design, good workmanship on your part, and someone
running the show at the job who knows how to get the job
done right. Communication should be through the chain. The
company must know it's their heads on the line when
something goes wrong here, I can't believe they wouldn't
care enough to find out your specifics on bracing and other
load characteristics.
Unfortunately, it's the regular guy (who isn't trained or
expected to know all this stuff) that gets hurt or killed
when the foremen/management blow you off.
With today's liablility, they will drop like flies. Hope
you don't get caught up in their negligence.
MD
xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
*
Ron. Here is a complaint I have. I "learned" how to brace trusses from the crew i was on and I'm sure they were self taught. I have never gotten any formal education or seen it on properly bracing trusses. This may be true only in my area but I suspect not. The same holds true for a lot of new practices, material, etc. Does anyone else out there run into an information void like this out in the field?
*Keith - You're partly right. Truss manufacturers don't go out in the field to show framing crews how to set trusses. But who does ? Have you ever had a siding guy come out and show you how to do siding ? How about a shingle guy ? Most truss manufacturers send out general bracing instructions with every load of trusses. We even send out instructions on hanger installation, girder nailing, and preventing truss uplift. All this info is typically discarded without even a quick look. We've even offered contractors a video on truss bracing. But they don't want to watch it. The info is there for the asking/reading if you want to take the time to look at it.
*Ron: here in RI every Bldg. Inspector I work with wants to see the stamped print (PE) for the trusses, and on the print is the bracing diagram. Most of them point it out to te GC and say they'll be looking for the braces as per print.They want the print BEFORE they issue the permit, they want it submitted as part of the plan package.So , I would guess that 90% (10% NEVER gets the word) of the bracing problems you're talking about disappeared here about ten years ago.I would guess that Mass. and Florida are pretty much the same thing (half of the literature these days says Dade County approved)
*After looking at a pile of trusses and trusses pcs. parts on (in) a long strip mall many yrs ago, i made it my business to learn all about common installation.(which is what that strip mall was). More complex installations or ones that i'm not familiar with, i will take the time to run down the truss manufacturer both for myself and for inspection. The local suppliers here do not make it there business to include either specs. or installation requirements.Did i mention that after they cleaned up the mess and reset the new trusses, that extreme wisdom did not raise it's ugly head, so there they were on a monday morning, all in a pile and this time it knocked down the entire end of the bldg. I heard some framers just kept going after slowing down. Somebody must have believed it was an act of God. After that sighting i made it a pt. to never work for that developer/builder. stupid is as stupid does.
*It's all about money. Ron's right, there's info out there (I get general/construction brace info stapled on every package and specific permanent bracing plans with each set of trusses). But it's the same reason most mistakes happen--people who never hear anything except rush rush rush start rushing and make mistakes. Of course I have heard of macho stupidity before, but never in connection with construction....
*Ron It has been a few years since i set any trusse but as I remember no info came out to the field. This may be due to the trusses sold through a second party ie. the lumber yard whereas nowadays the trusses take a more direct route. The same applied to TJIs, I'm talking 15 or more years back and the type of accidents You are talking about may have brought about more info to the job site. I saw one such incident first hand and what saved the crew was that they were scrambling down for more braces when the back wall of a block building blew out and the trusses came down. I also seem to remember every bundle of siding and every bundle of shingles with all the directions printed on the bundles. Kind of ironic when You consider the difference of the risk involved between poorly applied siding or shingles versus poorly applied trusses. Thanks, Skip ps. For what it is worth GCs may not feel it is worth their time to watch a video on truss bracing, IMHO until a lawsuit is eminent.
*Ron,My local TJI rep comes out in the field with every delivery. He goes over the floor plans and points out any trouble spots. He will also come out when I call him.Aside form that truss bracing is much simpler if you just read the pamplet. I am pretty anal about bracing. I brace the gable first and run the first few off of that. as soon as I get 4 or so set I use 2x4 to x brace it on the top and on top of the bottom chord. I keep doing thie all the way across. As soon as I get them up I go back and install bracing as per specs, Making sure all trusses are in their proper place. The 2x4 xbracing the top are removed as needed to attach plywood.Rick Tuk
*Mike I think the biggest problem is builders getting in a rush. They put plywood on the roof while the crane is there. They do not have the premanent braces on yet. I find that to be the critical point. when truss are up but not yet braced.Rick Tuk
*
There's some info on bracing trusses in this month's FHB.
*Ron,After building for 15 years, I didn't find out about proper truss bracing until I started inspecting. There's a great book published by the Truss Plate Institute (608-833-5900). It's called "Handeling Installing & Bracing". It's small enough for a tool box and lists at $7.00.You should order enough to GIVE one out with every order. Build it into your cost. Keep sending 'em, even to the same customers. Pretty soon every carpenter on the job will have one. Add a check box to the bill of materials that shows a copy went with the order.BTW, are you labeling the brace points on the trusses? In addition to helping the carpenters, it's a great help to the inspectors.Don't count on the customer to educate himself (think EIFS). You do it and get yourself some good PR at the same time. Good luck.
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Charlie -
We
b DO
Give bracing info out with every order. (HIB 91, a sheet drawn up bt the Wood Truss Council of America) And we also list it as a line item on the delivery tickets that are signed at the jobsite.
We do label webs that need bracing with paper tags, but the framers generally rip off the tags whenever they see them. The braces are rarely installed.
But these web braces have nothing to do with erection bracing, which is what I was talking about in this thread.
*
I got a complaint, guys. As some of you will remember, I'm in the truss business. I'm disturbed by the lack of truss bracing put on all too many buildings lately.
A couple of examples: A commercial building with flat trusses. The trusses were top chord bearing, so the contractor assumed the trusses would just "hang" there. He didn't put any bracing on the trusses
b at all.
The first wind that came along, the trusses were on the ground.
A church gymnasium, 75' wide, with piggyback trusses. The contrator was trying to rush his guys, and save money on crane time. They got all the trusses set, and decided to set some plywood up there with the crane. So they set
b full units
of plywood on the flat area of the trusses. The trusses buckled under the weight, and went down with 9 guys on them. A couple of them were seriously injured.
A 60' by 120 commercial building, with trusses 6' O.C. They set the gable on the south end of the building, and did a good job of bracing it with ground braces. (It was sheathed at the factory with OSB) They set the rest of the trusses without using bracing - they just installed 3 rows of purlins as they went along. They didn't use hangers, though - just nail through the truss into one end of the purlin, and toe-nailed the other end. When they got to the north end of the building, they just ran their 3 rows of purlins over to the gable, and didn't add any ground braces. (They were tired, and it was late) The next day, a wind came up out of the south, and blew the trusses over one by one, starting with the north gable.
A house, with 30' trusses at 6/12. They started out with one ground brace from the gable up to the peak. Then they set all the trusses, running one brace along the peak. (No other diagonal braces or anything) WQhile the crane was folding up his boom to go home, one of the guys went around and pulled the ground brace out. The trusses all fell over.
I could give you at least a dozen other examples. But I doubt that would help any.
I guess my biggest complaint is that contractors won't listen when I try to talk to them about bracing. I get comments like:"We know what we're doing". "Don't worry about it - I've done things like this lots of times" "You think I don't know what I'm doing?"
Why can't I get this across ? Is this an ego thing ? I'm not trying to make the contractors look stupid, I'm trying to keep their people from getting hurt, and protect both our companies from liability.
I'm also kind of ticked off that, after an event like this, the first thing they do is call us and ask: "Was there something wrong with those trusses ?" and the inevitable question; "Does your insurance cover something like this?" (It doesn't, just for the record)
Thanks for letting me vent a bit. Please pardon the length of the post.