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Ron:
This is a good discussion. The design of the home should dictate truss and stick sections that work together. Truss designers that have many years of experience will know from what framers or builders tell them works the best. The combo of the two will usually lead to most cost effective. That is labor and materials. How many of you have used “valley trusses” (trusses that set on trusses and sheathing) forming valley of valley’s?
The first time that you use them you will say that it’s probably faster to hand frame in, however after you learn the quirks that go with them, its very fast.
I framed several years conventionaly, (walls) that is, then our truss supplier here asked me to try their wall panels, preframed wall sections that they stack on big pallet and deliver to the site with sheathing installed, where they butt end to end, use on extra stud and butt together and nail off studs to each other to hold. The owner of the company developed his own system pre computers about 30 years ago and had most of the bugs out of the system. I was amazed at how quickly you could put up all the walls, just need 3 man crew, and 2 of them don’t need to be journeymen but helps if one is. We did a 3500 sq ft with 2000 ft basement interiors and exteriors and all I had to do was trim off 3/16’s inch off plates on one wall to make every thing go together the first time. I was sold on it after that. Have to make sure you have a flat level deck, then it really makes the thing come together. The longest wall section is usually 12 feet, some 8feet depends on where the breaks end up. I’ve done this with single wall construction, hardboard panels and windows installed, just have to be more careful and walls are heavier but it works slick also. No way you can frame and stand that fast.
I wouldn’t have wanted to learn panels first though, without having framed many by hand the old fashioned way, because it’s that experience the keeps you doing it in proper sequence. All walls are numbered and we just drag and stand, nail top plated, line, brace. Larry Haun would cringe I’m sure, but finished product is high quality framing.
What are the panels systems that others are using, software etc, the capitol outlay for modern system has to be high, with many years use before return on investment. The old system that they use here, does one section about 16 feet long, and you hand nail with nail gun, with everything being about waist high in the warehouse. This equipment is still doing the work it was designed for but I know its about 25 years behind current technology.
Mike
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Its hard to find 2x10'x or 2x12's that are all the same width width anymore e.g. 2x10's vary from 9-1/8 to 9-3/8. The great thing about I-joist is consistency in depth and the long lengths. I've tried the pre-punched variety with knock-outs but usually both ends have to be trimmed to make the knock-outs line up and I have yet seen the plumber run any copper through them. No offense to anyone but that would be an interesting thread - the plumber/sawzall relationship.
*>No offense to anyone but that would be an interesting thread - the plumber/sawzall relationship.Topped only by the electrician/sawzall relationship. When they moved up to the next floor, I heard one say to the other, "Hey Joey, fresh wood...heh, heh, heh!" And usually they didn't even bother w/ a sawzall--they just beat the crap out of it w/ a hammer. The only q the framing inspector had for the rough-in was if the size of a plumber's hole in the I-joist was too big. Made it by 1/8". Just lucky, 'cause they sure didn't measure as they cut.
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Have you guys ever seen an electrician or plumber clean up after themselves? All that hacking, and they leave the mess, plus all the empty boxes and junk they work with.
Not that I would want to pay 'em $50/hr to clean it up, but...
*Oh I'm gonna booger it Patrick. I don't think trusses will help me on this one. Nothing will. I'll wing it and booger it till it's done...kinda right.bloo
*I agree Mike. Floor trusses = hangers, special hangers, goofy header sysytems, bouncy, heavy, and firestopping these things can be a real headache. Now, what do you do when a plumber cuts through one? then theres lacers, special bearing blocks under outside wall bearing points.And heaven forbid if the architect includes a cantilever! Ever try endblocking a floor truss system to cantilever it out for brick?And whatever you do, don't put truss 1a218 where truss 1b218 should go!the last house I did with floor trusses ended up taking me twice as long as 2x10 for the decks. I hit the builder up for extra cash and told him that I won't even build anymore houses for him if he insists on using floor trusses.Oh yeah, did I mention a major delay if one truss is shorted or broken?Floor trusses suck!blue
*I've opened up a few ceilings and been showered from above with the debris they dumped into the joist space after they hacked the shit out of the structure.. . I think they work on a ratio. .. notch 2/3 out of 6 floor joists, toss in various fast food packaging and spent coffee cups, empty teflon tape rolls and fittings boxes, add some copper & ABS offcuts, close 'er back up and Bob's yer f**kin uncle.-pm
*BleuHave you considered turning one of your ceiling J's into a beam, and hanging a few things off it or otherwise i shifting the load?? God was really on a roll when he invented J/hangers-pm
*Well Blue, this is quite fascinating. I've been Reading breaktime postings for a couple of months now and feel almost as though I've gotten to know you, Mad Dog, Jack, and the scores of other regular posters.It surprises me that someone elses opinion would be so diametrically opposed to my own. especially someone whom I have grown to have such respect for as a builder. I have used floor trusses and dealt with most of the stuff you mentioned above; cantilevers, kickers for brick pockets, "goofy" header systems, etc. and I really have had nothing but good experiences with it all. isn't it interesting how two people can have such different encounters with the same products? I am sure that there are products and techniques out there that a lot of guys absolutely swear by but I won't touch with a 10-foot pole after one unpleasant run-in with it. I'm sure we all have at least a little bit of that trait in us. It's like Dylan said: "We always did see the very same thing, we just saw it from a different point of view." One other thing... let me just add something to the Plumber-electrician with a sawzall line. how about those HVAC guys? there is actually one crew of them here in town that carrys chainsaws with them! how scary is that? uugggh!!! Gave me the willies just thinking of some of the stuff I've seen them butcher!
*Mark...I can do things with a chainsaw that you may have trouble doing with any saw of your choice....Cuttin fine lines in half with my Stihl...in the cave, near the stream,aj
*Now JackieI've got my Stihl 028 fine honed like a razor, but by the time I cut through my pencil line, and I'm usin one of those big fat old kiddie crayons here, there's nothin left to determine how close to centre I might have got!!! Y'all got one of those new i coping chains fer yers???-pm
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A major pet-peeve.... but, there is also the sick satisfaction of watching a plumber on the end of a 1/2" hole-hawg when it "kicks-back".
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Mark, have you ever been forced to firestop a fllor truss system into 500 sq ft(maximum) sections, after the mechanicals are in? Or figure out how to repair a florr truss that the plumber drilled through, with heat ducts running through them?
In theory, the floor truss thing sounds good. In reality, it's a royal pain in the butt. If long spans are critical, then the floor truss system is superior. If beams can be utilized to mantain manageable spans, the old style system is much more economical.
I once spent a half day wrestling with a simple brick cantilever system on the end of the house. It took me over four hours to do something that normally takes me ten minutes. The end result was a crooked rim system, one of the worst I've ever done.
I'm not sold on the floor truss system. It's much slower, usually heavier and much less flexible. I've spent hours walking back and forth trying to figure out which piece goes where, kinda like a Chinese jigsaw puzzle.
Give me a pile of joist, and I'll happily make a deck.
blue
*That's a good solution for many different situations. Unfortunatly it won't work here.I simply am going to have to bite the bullet and install a flush beam, in an area that I really don't want it. I'll work out the design details to blend it into the structure in a workable way...I hope.blue
*Blue, In answer to those two questions, no I haven't been in either one of those situations. And I must say I agree with you on both of them, that would suck... bad... really really bad! I certainly see why it would leave you with a bad taste in your mouth. I guess I've just been lucky so far. Jack, I'm sure you can do some truly outstanding things with a chainsaw. I have certainly seen people create magazine quality works out of rough timber "all in a days work". We built a house once and trimmed most of the interior with cedar that had been removed from the lot to make room for the house. Two guys armed with chainsaws and angle grinders did things that I wouldn't even imagine! That experience certainly helped me to better be able to think outside of the box carpentry-wise. My point was that a ductwork guy armed with a chainsaw in a newly framed house is a very scary prospect indeed.
*Blue - I doubt I'll ever sell you on floor trusses, but I thought I'd reply to your post just in case someone else is curious about some of the things you said. The 500 Sq. foot thing must be some local code. I've never heard of that, so it must be a city? Since I have no idea where you live, I don't know what code would require that. But it would be a pain in the neck. > I once spent a half day wrestling with a simple brick cantilever system on the end of the houseI don't know why this would have been so difficult. They aren't terribly easy, but it's not that big of a stretch to get this done. > It's much slowerI gotta tell you, I simply don't believe that. I've helped install I-joists, floor trusses, and 2X10s. The floor trusses were the easiest by far. > I've spent hours walking back and forth trying to figure out which piece goes where, kinda like a Chinese jigsaw puzzle. That would be unacceptable to me. I would never sell a floor truss job without a layout. The layouts are always labeled, and the trusses are also individually labeled. I also have the shop spray paint the end of the trusses that go to the back of the house. If your supplier isn't doing these things, you need a new supplier.
*I'll have to agree resoundingly with Blue on this one. Floor trusses in general can be a royal PITA, and the more complicated the floor system the bigger pain they become.I too have had to install firestop after everyone else got their mechanicals in and it wasn't much fun at all.On the same house somehow the designer put a truss halfway under a toilet. The stool had to go right on that spot, so we had to wait and see how much the plumber was going to cobble out of the truss, wait again for the truss company to get back to us with an engineered retrofit, and waste another couple hours fixing the damned thing. Not very efficient at all.The floor plan of the house was fairly complicated with a rectangular main body and wings on either side coming off at a 45 degree angle. There were oodles of odd sized and ended trusses and several of them needed to hang at 45 degrees on girder trusses. It's not that there wasn't a reliable diagram to sort them out with, but it is still time consuming to seperate the bundles and make heads or tails of all the pieces.The truss manufacturer also made a mistake on the stairwell, and several hours were spent reworking the trusses in that area with their engineered fixes.Much of this can be blamed squarely on the laxity of the truss supplier we happened to be working with on this project. I could relate similiar problems with a rather elaborate trussed hip roof I helped on early in my career.But it points out a fatal flaw in the use of trusses in general. They are rather inflexible to alteration in the field. And they take the decision making out of the hands of skilled carpenters and makes them assemblers rather than builders. That might work great on boxy little tract houses, but it isn't worth beans to me on a chopped up custom.Dick Streff
*Dick -I agree with you on some of your points. Complicated houses can be difficult to do floor trusses for. And it's further complicated by typically poor blueprints we get to work with. Mistakes on stairwell openings are common. I don't know exactly why that is. This can be solved sometimes by using trimmable ends on the floor trusses at the stairwell openings. (This also works well for 45 degreee bays) Placing a truss directly under a toilet location is also common. No one seems to think about that ahead of time. But this problem isn't limited just to floor trusses. All types of floor framing have this problem. > But it points out a fatal flaw in the use of trusses in general. They are rather inflexible to alteration in the field.That's true. But they're supposed to be right when they get there. > they take the decision making out of the hands of skilled carpenters and makes them assemblers rather than builders. That's true. But this seems a reasonable thing, as there are less and less "skilled" carpenters out there all the time. I'm curious, guys, to hear where it is that firestopping is required on floor trusses ? I've never heard of it before, except on this forum.
*Ron, I've also had the unfortunate experience of using trimmable floor trusses. What a nightmare. Instead of dropping a simple 2x10 onto the beam and foundation and whacking, i had to trim both ends of an unbearable heavy fllor truss. Of course, since my 7 1/4" blade doen't cut through in one pass, I have to roll each truss at least 180 degrees.Please, someone tell me how trimming both ends of thirty long, heavy floor trusses is faster!!!!Oh yeah, of course, the trusses are spanned to the maximum and over trimming one end or the other will result in a failed endblock. And don't forget the stairwell that needs exact trimming.The firestopping is a hit or miss thing, which makes it a more dangerous item. Some communities have fire marshalls that insist on the 500 sq ft max floor plenum, others don't care. You don't find out until the rough building is inspected. Of course, all the mechanicals are in and the firestopping details are excruciatingly painful.Or, you are caught in the middle of a new inspector change. The new inspector wants the plnum firestopped whereas the old guy didn't care.Since I've never had that problem with sticks, I kinda like them better.blue
*Ron, all I can tell you is that I would have been livid if one of my employees had spent so much time on the end system. But the fact remains that it was I that took on the challenge. I first had to fasten one floor truss to another to create a "beam". How riduculus! The two trusses were not exactly easy to clamp together, unless I drove 40 miles home and garnered a couple of large clamps from the barn. Since I've never had a previous need for clamps on a rough site, I suppose I wasn't prepared. Then, I had to put a riduculous amount of nails into useless hangers and fasten small "jacks" to this beam. Then came the undaunting task of trying to make this unstraight assembly appear straight on the rim. Since none of the jack trusses could be pulled and fastened tight to the "beam", and none of the jacks were accurately make to length, the entire system was pretty whacked out of shape with no easy means of aligning it. If I had to do another (which I won't because I refuse to bid jobs that use floor trusses), I suppose I could cut the time down to two hours or so instead of the normal tem or fifteen minutes that a conventional 2x brick cantilever block system takes.Now, compound that couple hours of floor cantilever by then number of end projections, and you will quickly eat up a significant number of labor hours.I have done some simple floors that efficiently used floor trusses. Although heavy, they simplified the process. This floor was used in a simple ranch (that's all they do out in the country) that had one offset. Since the basement was open, firestopping was not an issue. Like I said, some situations are ideal for floor trusses. Large cutom homes are not one of them. Especially when the MRS starts moving walls!bluw
*Blue -I never said that trimmable end floor trusses were faster - only that they allowed for some flexability in the field. Cutting them with a sawzall seems to be the best method. I don't know what you mean by a "failed endblock". You've still never told me where you were, and what code requires the 500 square foot thing. Is it a state code, city, county?
*Ron, I meant to say that if you trim a floor truss too much, the endblock doesn't meet specs. On the house we were doing, the trusses had to be trimmed as much as possible leaving no room for error. The last thing I want to do is precision cuts on long trusses.I'm in Michigan, and the two communities where I've had firestopping headaches with trusses were Franklin and Bloomfield Hills (or township, or west bloomfield twsp).Yes the trimmable trusses are flexible, but so are iron bars, if you are superman!blue
*Ron,Just a data point on the firestopping. The house I was doing this on was located near Lincoln, Nebraska. I can't remember exactly what code body they were basing the local building inspection on. I am also not precisely sure the firestopping was required at the 500 square foot mark. It may have been some other value. It's been over 5 years gone by, so my memory isn't real precise on that.I guess alot of the truss vs. stick comes down to what direction you're coming at the problem from. I agree that there are less and less skilled carpenters available. I happen to believe that I am one of them and am more comfortable practicing the trade with that in mind.Dick Streff
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I'm real curious about the numerous comments of truss companies placing a floor truss in the center of a toilet waste opening. Don't your truss layout packets clearly state that "it is the responsibility of the contractor to ensure there is no interference between floor trusses and plumbing/mechamechanicalchimney chase in a full basement). Its a simple matter of moving a truss or two a few inches to avoid any problems. Would you layout 2x10 floor joists to fall dead-center on a toilet or tub/shower drain?
I've done all types of floor systems mentioned in these posts, and BY FAR floor trusses are the easiest to work with. The key is, like anything else, you need to get through the learning curve; it takes a couple of houses, but speed improves tremendously when you know how to handle em.
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John -
I never deliberately put a truss under a toilet flange. The prints we get are so lousy, I often have no idea where the toilets will be.
And, of course, the homeowners are always changing things around.
And, I'd have to confess, I don't always think about it ahead of time.
*John,The floor I was referring to had that odd layout with trusses hanging into girder trusses at a 45 degree angle. I couldn't really shift them one way or another, as no two in that area were the same length/configuration.Realistically, I think even if I could have shifted them it would have put the subfloor overspanned in that area Probably no big deal, but its another consideration. And we don't get a spare truss to eliminate the overspan. Thats a pretty easy fix with sawn joists, or even off the shelf I-joists.Also, even when the contractor knows the truss is dead center on the stool you might as well install it and move on. By the time an approved fix is in order its easier to install and let the plumbers hack away and come back to it later. We framers weren't going to pull off the job for a day or two till the truss manufacturer came up with a new solution.I've been ragging floor trusses quite a bit so I feel like I should give kudos to them where they deserve it. I did a house last year that the general wanted minimum egress to the deck and he went with top chord hung trusses. It was a nice, rectangular plan and they worked out just dandy. We did a similiar one for him with I-joists and the poured basement guys really jacked up the ledge on the inside perimeter and it was a major pain. Trusses definitely were the better choice for that application.Dick Streff
*Dick, you make a good point about just going with the flow instead of pulling the crew off waiting for a fix. I can gross about a thousand a day, and if I pull off, I will lose almost a grand for a couple of days waiting. And there's no guarantee that it will only be two days. I've waited two weeks for roof truss replacements that I needed. Normally, I notice the problem well in advance of needing them (roof trusses) and a week wait is ok. But floor trusses are needed now!John, if the world was perfect, and there were no mistakes ever made, I suppose a toilet would never end up over a truss. But the facts remain, sometimes it happens, and it's a royal pain in the pocketbook to fix. And interstingly enough, theres a substantial increase in probability of landing on a 3 1/2" wide truss, compared to the 1 1/2" joist. My ex partner always checked layout of stools and tubs. I used to too, but quit somewhere in the early eighties when the house started getting bigger. In a bighouse, it's usually pretty easy to move the stoll 3/4" one way or the other. AND, there is an offset toilet flange that allows a plumber to land directly on top of a joist! I haven't checked for joist layout in over twenty years, and only recently went back to header one off. That took an hour, and I'm sure I'm still way, way ahead on time by just going with a straight layout, but I do admit that checking is a must with floor trusses even though we never get a detailed layout that coincides accurately with the floor plan and existing plumbing. blue
*> I've waited two weeks for roof truss replacements that I neededThat's insane. No way should that ever happen. We always try to fix problems within 24 hours, regardless of who's fault it is. Waiting 2 weeks is way out of line.
*I've recently gone through the floor truss / plumber w/ hole saw blues myself. We ended up having to get down in a 2.5' crawlspace, dig a footer, and put a pier under the plumber's handy work. That coulda just as well happened with 2x10s, but it woulda been much easier to fix. Really though, the only thing that I have against floor trusses is when someone wants to install 'em over a crawl space. There is no practical way to insulate the floor. Now someone is gonna say don't vent the crawl, and insulate the perimmeter. OK - we won't go down that rat hole…
*I agree Ron but unfortunatly it's not something I control. Since I am not the builder, I don't even have the satisfaction of nevr using that truss company again.I did notice that you said "try". At the peak of the building season, the truss companies get swamped with repair orders and regular orders. They do try to give good service, but sometimes it's impossible. At least with 2x floor joist we can hustle some off the next job and keep going.blue
*Exactly Matt G! Trusses can be a blessing, but they can be a nightmare curse too. We had a situation on the last set we kid (two years ago). The plumber drilled a stool dead center on a floor truss. It was over a basement and there was no pier/footing option. The builder sent me over to do the fix: laminate 3/4 ply on each side for the length of the truss. There was one minor problem: the heat runs were already going though and there was never going to be a way to laminate that ply unless they dropped the heat down below the joist. That wasn't going to happen.I left, and never did anything. I don't know what the builder did (probably nothing). Can any plumbers tell me why they would cut a floor truss anyways?????!!!!!!! Isn't there certain times when a situation warrants a discussion with a superintendent? Cutting a longspanned floor truss, that abslutely cannot be repaired seems to be a situation that warrants a conference. We could have loosened the truss up and moved it, but the plumber decided to ruin it instead.blue
*You're right, I did say "try". We don't always make 24 hours, but I'd say it's rarely over 48 hours, and never more than 72. We've kept people late at nigth to finish up a repair, or worked Saturdays. We even try to get things done that quick if it isn't our fault.
*Blue:I gotta assume that in our latest case, the plumber wasn't paying attention to what he was doing. He cut a ~2 1/2" waste pipe hole through the bottom plate of an interor, nonbearing wall and through the top cord of the floor truss. It was for a lav that was to sit on a vanity base. The waste and supply pipes could have easily been routed strait down throuth the (future) cabinet bottom, rather than run in the wall.Same deal as yours - truss eng. said put plywood on the sides of the truss, but the plumber had pipes in the way, so it wasn't possible. Then we had to jump through all these other hoops with the footer and pier. In retrospect, we shoulda just sawsalled the plumber's pipes out of the way, put the plywood on the sides of the truss, and had a nice day!We had put that floor truss where it was on purpose because other configurations would have put one in the way of the WC or tub drain.
*> In retrospect, we shoulda just sawsalled the plumber's pipes out of the way, put the plywood on the sides of the truss, and had a nice day! Ya know Matt, I've always wanted to do that too...............(-:
*MattG., I suppose it's possible that the plumber doesn't know that there is more lumber under the sole plate, but let's face the facts: It's still a screw up. I'm not a drilling expert, but I usually can feel when I get through the sole plate and hit the ply wood. Since I know that the plywood is only 3/4" I'm probably not going to keep drilling if I haven't gotten through in a second or two.I have cut plumbers pipes to do repairs. If it has to be done, I'm game. It's no big deal, a simple 1/2 hour re-solder service call.I did run into a situation with a plumbing crew once. I kept getting knocked down for firestopping over the tub acess hole. Even though I always put the blocks in, they weren't there after the mechanicals were done. One day, the plumbing crew started a house while I was in it. Immediately the young plumber knocked the block out while I was standing there. I asked him why he was doing that. He replied "because that's how my boss told me to do it, just knock them blocks out before you start anything." Shocked, I asked him to give his boss a message, "I'm bringing my sawzall to do the next firestopping repairs and will be glad to cut out the pipes to get my fireblock in".Problem solved.blue
*Blue:Do you mean the access hole that one would open to see the backside of the faucets and the overflow & trip lever system? I haven't seen one of those on a house built in 10 years around here. The builders probably wouldn't even put an access hole for the whirlpool pump if the inspectors didn't require one to pass inspection. I like access holes, someday I will add them to my home as needed!Frank
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There are some PVC retro-fits available for $6-7.00 that mount into sheetrock readily .... assuming the water valves are located on a partition wall. Had a 2 piece Aqua-glass shower unit installed in a remodel that the plumber couldn't keep from leaking at the seam. I had to install an access door to determine where the leak was. Figured it was a defective sweat joint.
*one phrase for you all to mention to your mechanical contractors " back charge ". let them know that they are responsible for any damage they incurr in the installation of their systems. after the first couple of bills they receive for their hack jobs they receive they will look before they leap.
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Scott:
I haven't seen these PVC retrofit (access doors?) that you refer to. Roughly, what size do they come in? Happen to know of a manufacturer name?
Thanks
*Matt...I have seen them at plumbing supply house in several sizes, but most do not stock them as they are rarely used...near the stream,aj
*
Regarding a truss roof on a single story structure with panel walls-(metal studs pressed into 1/2" ply running vertically under each roof truss. )
I need to replace a 3'0" x6'8" door with a 3'8"x6'8" door. To do this I have to cut through a steel stud which carries the load of the roof truss. I plan to support the roof truss with two DF studs. Is a double 2x8" header adequate to carry the load of the steel stud and roof truss? do I need to put a metal plate under the metal stud to protect the top of the header?
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Jim:
In standard 2x4 framed wall construction a double 2x8 is way more than adequate for that Span. On the other hand, I have never built a house constructed with metal studs, however, I don't see why the stud type would matter. You are not in a heavy snow load area, are you?
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Matt,
14x14 for size and PLUMBEST the brand. I have only used one a single time but wouldn't hesitate to use another if the occasion arose. I found this one at a plumbing supply. It consist of a parchment colored polystyrene frame and snap in door insert. Less obvious than a cased out opening.
*
Scott & AJ:
Thanks. I have an application for one right now. Water cuttoff in kitchen pantry wall.
*Mattg, don't be so quick to rush to judgment. If a concentrated load just happens to be landing in the middle of the header, a 2x8 might not be enough. Jim needs to elaborate on the load above the header before he can get his answer.But I do agree, it's probably adequate.blue
*Blue:Right you are - I just the info he had given us at face value.
*
Thanks for the replies. I live on Long Island, NY which typically is not a heavy snow area, athough we have had
snow falls of 12"-30" in the past 40 or so years. The roof pitch is probably 4" or 5" in 12". The stud and truss
will be supported at the first 1/4 of the header approx. There is no storage above the drop ceiling, load is
strictly from the roof.
Would you cut the stud to leave "ears" to bend out to nail to the top of the header?
Jim
*
I can't remember who it was the other day who said something about "truss weenies", but it made me think about this competition.
Basically, they built 2 identical houses side by side. One was stick framed, while the other one used roof rtusses, floor truses, and panelized walls. They kept track of the labor and material costs, to see which one came up being less expensive.
Since this was done by the Wood Truss Council of America, it was slanted a bit towards components. But it's still interesting.
Framing the American Dream
*Ron, this is the classic story of the tortoise and the hare. they are comparing a house that isn't completed.I'd be willing to make the wager if the house included closed soffits, siding, two stories and windows and trim.And it would also help if the houses were cut up like the ones we normally do.I'm not a stick frame freak, nor a truss weenie but I do understand that a healthy mixture of both will get the job done effeciently.blue
*I'm interested in this debate, but am not a building contractor, so my involvement will have to be limited to questions. I like blue eyed devil's reponses. Kind of different horses for different courses? Blue eyed, looking at the web page that Ron references, how would you have framed that house? Which of the different aspects of each technology might you have used on that house, and how would you make your decision?Ron, I really like your post, referencing some data, but you said it, this page may be slightly slanted toward trusses! What do you think were the worst overstatements about the joys of using trusses?Just trying to learn, not start a religious war.
*Ken, I would tend to agree that the stats would be slanted in favor of the panelized house. I also concede that data would probably support some savings by using a 100% engineered component home vs a 100% stick built home.But...It is probably only going to work on production (same house over and over and over and...). It is only going to work for certain exterior styles. And... there are certain questions that remain unanswered.Is the shop wages sufficient to provide a similar standard of living. Are all fire code requirements met (I've had to install a fire break to reduce open floor trusses to maximum 500 sq ft sections)? Is the comparison house intentionally designed in such a way that it would be more sencsible to use components? Does the house reflect "normal" situations?The debate seems to center on speed. They claim "average" skilled crew competed. Then I see a stick framed house crawling with 16 carpenters?!!! My old ex-partner and I would stand that house up in two weeks max! Possibly one week depending on details (there certainly doesn't seem to be many detail evident). We routinely put stick framed decks together in 12 to 18 hours for similar sized homes with just the two of us. We found that two was just the right amount for these smaller (2600) sized homes. We found that extra guys just complicated the system and slowed things down. In fact, in one sub, a ten man crew took two days to complete the same deck that we framed in 16 hours! Sometimes less is better!I'd like to see a better, more forthright comparison. Anyways, to answer your question Ken, I'd be willing to bet that the fastest house is a combination of stick framing and truss construction. Floor trusses are probably only cost efficient in situations that require longer spans. If traditional beam work can cut down the span, they probably will be faster and cheaper. Pre-built plywood exterior walls, and interior partitions seems to be a waste. This is usually the easiest (translate: fastest, cheapest) portion of the frame job. By erecting the exterior walls without the soffit system attached, and without siding, windows and trim, you are simply postponing some serious amounts of scaffold and ladder work. I suppose you could complete the panelized walls, but the idle crane will eat up the savings.I do agree that most (not all) roof trusses provide tremendous cost savings for the builder. Their most important factor is transferring most (usually all) of the weight directly over the foundation walls. This eliminates the complications that arise in providing interior bearing walls, and transfer to the foundation under them. In short, it speeds up all aspects of the framing process, and is not limited to the actual roof framing operation.I'd like to see a better competion involving three similar houses. One would be all stick built, one all components, and one with a combination taking advantage where applicable. The house would be a little more cut up, with wood siding upstairs and brick down. The house should contain a generous amount of 21 century amentities like tyvek, bay windows, boxed out windows, offsets, reverse gables, etc. The house should generally avoid intentional specialty situations that demand engineered components, but not necessarily eliminate them. In short, the house should reflect a normal, custom new home built for the masses, not the exception. The plans should also be unique, new and never built before, forcing the crews to work out the kinks onsite.Then let me and my crew (three and one half ordinary human carpenters) take on the panelized freaks.I'm betting all my milkbones on me.blue
*Ron, This topic always interests me. I agree with the devilish one that the best built house is usually a combination of stick framing and trusses. That truss weenie stuff is for the knuckle dragging Neanderthals that still populate the construction industry. I frame custom single family homes one at a time and have done so for over 20 years. Our client base usually has very definite ideas of how their house is to look and many times it is computer software and a sharp truss company to the rescue. Engineering requirements are real rigid here in California and again it is usually trusses that get the job done without cutting down a rain forest or two. That "Framing the American Dream" just killed me, with its anal analysis of time saved, material saved and so on. Construction by its very nature is not black and white but constantly changing shades of gray. No two framing crews are the same. Neither are builders, home owners and architects. Lost a bid recently to a family that upon receipt of my proposal said I was $2.00 a square foot higher than their brother in law, who had probably read that story, thought I should be.I told them to let him frame it and let me know how it turned out. My advice to anyone contemplating the construction of a new custom home is too spend lots of time finding a builder that they are comfortable with and turn him loose to do what he knows best.
*Blue, you just described my house. 2245 s.f., 2 story, gable roof, hardie siding, a bay window and a couple of boxed-out windows. The only engineered system I used were roof trusses. TJI's were a third more than 2x10 floor joists. And I don't like 'em anyway, but thats another story. The roof trusses made sense out here in CA. Made life easy for myself and my engineer. The main reason though was labor. Free labor to me. I'm pretty much working alone on this home. I figured a weeks pay to a framer, if I could find a good one who wasn't working in June. Or sandwiches and beer for a few other firemen on our day off. IMHO it wound up being about a wash cost-wise. What it cost me in trusses I made up in labor.The only real downside I saw was that I had to add "space blocking" between the bottom cords for backing in some places due to the bottom cord being up to 3/4 high at midspan. The homes I have seen where they don't do this show a pronounced droop in the rock form the last truss to a partition wall where the backing was nailed ot the plate as is customary.I think you have to be careful though. I got bids from 2 truss yards. One guy looked at the one area where my cielings coffer from 8' to 10' and said he couldn't do it. 2nd yard said no problem, whipped it up on autocad while I watched. Turned out great. And it sure was nice to see my whole roof framed in a day.
*Dang, Blue - You sure bring up a lot of stuff. I'll try to hit on some of them. > It is probably only going to work on production (same house over and over..)Not at all. The decision to prefabricate should be made based on what the project looks like. For instance - a motel with a ton of 8' walls works well with panelized walls. A house with 8' or 9' walls also goes pretty well. But a house with several different wall heights, or walls over 10' tall probably won't work as well. > Is the shop wages sufficient to provide a similar standard of livingAt what truss plant ? Are all caprenters who work in the field paid well? Some are. some aren't. >Does the house reflect "normal" situations? Well, what's "normal"? I think it was relatively normal, but I'm sure they came up with a house design that was slanted in favor of prefabrication. > The debate seems to center on speed.Not so much speed as cost. I don't think panelized construction is faster on residential construction, since you generally end up waiting on deliveries. > Then I see a stick framed house crawling with 16 carpenters?!!!They had a real tight deadline on building the 2 houses. They were built at the national Home Builders convention in 1996. I think they had to build the houses, display them, and tear them down in about a week. I don't think there are very many framers that would put that many people on one house. > I'd be willing to bet that the fastest house is a combination of stick framing and truss constructionI think most would agree with you. I don't believe prefabrication is the answer to all your problems. Some things just aren't practical to prefab. Sorry - I'm out of time at the moment. But I'd be happy to carry this conversation on if you (Or anyone else) are actually interested.
*Wow....Did I say truss weenie????....I have set rafters many times faster and less expensive than trusses...If I ever have the time I'll dig out a couple of old projects and run the numbers by ya all...And I never have used a crane to set a truss....Crane weenies...in the cave, near the stream,aj Please note...b B.C. happens to be another nickname of mine!
*The last time I used trusses was on a garage. They were 8/12's x 22 feet wide. I set them all by myself without a crane, in one day, in the winter. Of course I have stick built a roof or two by myself also but working alone I would say the trusses went quicker, a bit heavier but quicker.Pete
*Actually Pete, when working alone, it's usually easier to conventionally frame a roof (for me anyways). Except, how do you span 22' for the ceiling, assuming that you want the ceiling covered (our garage ceilings are always drywalled here with 58 type X). And I'd welcome a garage with such a low slope Just kidding.You sound like my ex-partner. He didn't mind dragging huge trusses around behind him alone all day.blue
*Yes Jack, err B.C., you were the guy who started the truss weenie stuff.Given your propensity for results, I find it odd that you want to remain in the cave.I happen to be conventionally framing my current Huron project, but only because I've scavanged enough lumber to substantially do the roof for next to nothing. I wouldn't hesitate to truss it though since I harbor no neanderthal issues.Funny thing though: When I went through the union carpenter school, the old fashioned instructor warned us that the new fangled trusses would soon be failing en masse. His predictions are obviously not true, but the only roofs I see sagging are the conventional ones! When you say faster and less expensive, are you referring to materials, or materials and labor. I don't see how conventional is cheaper, especially with labor costs approaching 30 per hour.blue
*Blue,It's not something I look forward to but sometimes a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do. I suppose my previous post would have fit in just as well under the "can anyone find good help" thread in the Tavern.Pete Dragantrussess
*Truss draggers unite I say....three of us dragged 28' span 12/12 pitch room in the attic trusses down a clay swamp yard, up and on to the end of the log cabin, flipped them inside one at a time and proceded to set all in a day...No reasonably priced cranes in Manchester to be found and the dumb estimater (me) didn't budget for one at two grand from out of town...headin out of the cave to play today,B.C.
*A couple years ago an architect informed me that truss makers will build an attic truss. The truss is made with the center open for storage. I have used them once for a garage roof. The owner ended up with a 8' wide x 4' tall storage area above the garage.We do about 1/3 of our roofs with trusses. We use either a boom truck($85 per hour plus move in) or a fork lift to set the trusses.
*Daved - 8' wide by 4' tall ? That ain't what I call an attic truss. Sounds more like a waste of money.
*I'd have to say that I go for a combination platter. A little bit of stick framing and a little bit of truss work. We are in the middle of a job where we took over the framing punch-out. The home owner keeps changing up the first floor interior wall design. You know....."Lets make this closet bigger and change the size of the bathroom" kind of thing. Lucky for us, and him, the second floor was built on trusses that span from outside wall to outside wall. If we had 2x's or TJI's which were broke on interior walls, this could be a nightmare. However, with the trusses, it's a piece of cake.I vote for a little bit of both.Ed. Williams
*Right ED. More importantly, is the transfer of the loads from the second through the first and into the foundation. If you are using conventional systems on the second floor, it forces you to stack bearing walls, or put beams and posts in odd places on the first floor. I'm running into a problem in my own house because of that. I'm going to end up with a couple of bearing posts (small walls) in a place that I absolutely do not want them. but I have no choice since I'm stick framing everything.But You aren't going to foist any floor trusses on me!blue
*Ron:This is a good discussion. The design of the home should dictate truss and stick sections that work together. Truss designers that have many years of experience will know from what framers or builders tell them works the best. The combo of the two will usually lead to most cost effective. That is labor and materials. How many of you have used “valley trusses” (trusses that set on trusses and sheathing) forming valley of valley’s? The first time that you use them you will say that it’s probably faster to hand frame in, however after you learn the quirks that go with them, its very fast.I framed several years conventionaly, (walls) that is, then our truss supplier here asked me to try their wall panels, preframed wall sections that they stack on big pallet and deliver to the site with sheathing installed, where they butt end to end, use on extra stud and butt together and nail off studs to each other to hold. The owner of the company developed his own system pre computers about 30 years ago and had most of the bugs out of the system. I was amazed at how quickly you could put up all the walls, just need 3 man crew, and 2 of them don’t need to be journeymen but helps if one is. We did a 3500 sq ft with 2000 ft basement interiors and exteriors and all I had to do was trim off 3/16’s inch off plates on one wall to make every thing go together the first time. I was sold on it after that. Have to make sure you have a flat level deck, then it really makes the thing come together. The longest wall section is usually 12 feet, some 8feet depends on where the breaks end up. I’ve done this with single wall construction, hardboard panels and windows installed, just have to be more careful and walls are heavier but it works slick also. No way you can frame and stand that fast. I wouldn’t have wanted to learn panels first though, without having framed many by hand the old fashioned way, because it’s that experience the keeps you doing it in proper sequence. All walls are numbered and we just drag and stand, nail top plated, line, brace. Larry Haun would cringe I’m sure, but finished product is high quality framing. What are the panels systems that others are using, software etc, the capitol outlay for modern system has to be high, with many years use before return on investment. The old system that they use here, does one section about 16 feet long, and you hand nail with nail gun, with everything being about waist high in the warehouse. This equipment is still doing the work it was designed for but I know its about 25 years behind current technology.Mike
*I still don't get it.Are youse talking about a type of wienie, or are you talking about a wienie in a truss, etc ???Do these wienies take any particular type of bun ? ie, truss bun...Do you have to have any particular type of grill to cook them on ? ie truss grill....
*Michael - > How many of you have used “valley trusses”?I don't think they're cost effective on residential construction. But it's interesting to note that the use of them varies greatly from one region to the next. For instance - In Chicago, they virtually b alwaysuse valey trusses on houses. The framers expect every last piece of the house framed for them, without giving much thought to wether it really makes sense or not. Around here, they're virtually unheard of. > What are the panels systems that others are using........?This varies greatly from place to place. Some still do it by hand, as you mentioned. I've used this method, but it seems to result in too many mistakes. (Addition errors, etc.) I think most manufacturers use computer systems now to generate the panel layout and paperwork for the plant. This tends to produce less mistakes, and is faster. As for production machinery, this also varies greatly. Some simply build on plywood tables. Others have special tables made for this purpose. There are more kinds of machinery for building walls than I could possibly describe here. You can spend as much money on it as you want to. Ask your supplier for a tour of their plant sometime. Us truss weenies do have some neat toys...............(-:
*Jack, I guess we weren't undermanned when we dragged 16 40' span 6/12 attic in trusses to the top of 10 foot walls. 2 carpenters, me, and a neighbor. Hell, we probably could have got by without the neighbor!Blue, you're going with bearing posts, in places you don't want them, in your own home, when using floor joists would allow you to clear span? If I understood you correctly, you must have a deep aversion to trusses!Thanks to everyone who posted, or has yet to post, I've learned a lot (but then I have a lot to learn!)
*Ken, it's not the floor trusses that are needed, it would take a complicated set of roof trusses. And I love roof trusses, but already have the sticks.Plus, the truss people would alter my design is a different, just as unpalatable way.And I really do dislike floor trusses that bad!blueps, I'm also the "most compromisin' man that ever lived. I'll be happy with whatever.
*Bleui "I'm going to end up with a couple of bearing posts (small walls) in a place that I absolutely do not want them. but I have no choice since I'm stick framing everything. "If you switch your thinking from "load here therefore bearing wall here" to "no damn wall, where can I shift that load" you i should be able to eliminate it.Booger it. ..you da man!!!!-pm
*Blue, I really gotta ask.... What is the nature to your aversion regarding floor trusses? For a little bit of extra expense, you get a floor system that is stronger, takes a fraction of the time to install, and completely eliminates the need for "duct chases", and soffits etc. When I built my house two years ago the plumbers and hvac guys had never seen floor trusses before and would not stop ranting on about what a wonderful invention they were! I framed the entire house all by myself (with occasional help from the wife, "Here you go Tim" "Thanks Heidi") and when I did a material cost comparison between Trusses and rafters for the roof the difference was so negligible that when I looked at how labor and time intensive rafters would be there really was no choice. I actually hefted those forty foot trusses up onto that two story house and set all of them by myself in just two days. Honestly, all bragging aside, this is not something I ever intend to repeat! Finally, I guess I agree with the general consensus, there are places where trusses are the most logical choice, and there are places where it just makes sense to go with rafters. The only wrong approach is to have a closed mind when looking at any job.
*My head keeps asking....What's so time consuming about rafters??????....You can cut them all in a few minutes....they're easy to move and stand agains't your wall awaiting their use, then ya just bang a couple nails in them...Is setting the ridge killing ya all, urr whaaaat??? Wazzz up?Rafterin like a fool...near the cave, by the stream,B.C.
*Yeah. Damn, Jack, I've been finding myself agreeing with you more and more these days.My opinion-if you need long spans of open space go with trusses. If you want a usable attic, go with rafters. But overall, I use rafters as mostly I run a one man show. Trusses work better for bigger crews because there's plenty of things to keep less talented labor involved with and these guys have a lot of houses to build fast.MD
*First, Mark, I forgot to mention that, pricing lumber vs. trusses, the trusses were actually cheaper than the lumber to frame a roof, and I didn't want any posts in the garage anyway. I thought at the time it was because of the competitive nature of the truss business in our area (NW Arkansas). Bidding on 40 ft wide chicken houses (400 ft long I believe) drives down their price?Blue, misunderstood your situation, told you I'm learning, and I'm slow. But I have to bite (to learn a little more.) Why don't you like floor trusses? Thanks again to all for the knowledge imparted.
*Jack,The prob with the ridge is getting it to float in place long enough to get your first rafters up! THank God I bought that sky hook last fall. Best money I ever spent.PeteReady for this one?If trussess were cheaper than sticks......
*god only knows why blue don't like floor trusses..but here's my two cents....they have too much depth.. and they're too bouncy..now that's based on 28 ft. and 32 ft. houses..on the other hand.. i do like the I-joists for the longer spans.. unless i can use 2X... then that's what we'll use... too many details and special hangers to make them worthwhile in normal floor systems...mind this is from someone who has never built the same thing twice in my life....
*I'll possibly find a use for trusses some day...in construction that is... but not so far.-pm